LQ9 wont stay running after FAST LSXrt 102mm tb/intake swap...HELP?

[sac811]

Here is my current open loop tune to start AUTO.VE with:

16225

The truck starts great, then dies a second or two after. If I hit the accelerator it dies quicker.

1. Does that mean it is getting too much GAS or too much AIR?

2. And either way, how do I go about adjusting for that?

Log of start is attached below, disregard AFR for now because gauge was apparently off and needs to be recalibrated.

16223

3. Is there anything special I need to do in the tune with no MAF being plugged in?

[joecar]

It means the idle air is not correct... you will need to do some idle tuning, have a look thru here:


Idle Tuning
showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside)
showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks)
showthread.php?5866-Auto-VE-questions (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?5866-Auto-VE-questions)
showthread.php?14153-scan-tool-wont-log-rafig-or-rafpn (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14153-scan-tool-wont-log-rafig-or-rafpn)
showthread.php?14435-Need-help-Can-Start-Car-but-dies-when-I-give-it-any-throttle-before-going-to-CL (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14435-Need-help-Can-Start-Car-but-dies-when-I-give-it-any-throttle-before-going-to-CL&p=129519&viewfull=1#post129519)
showthread.php?7011-ETC-cars-and-IAC-parameters (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?7011-ETC-cars-and-IAC-parameters&p=61455&viewfull=1#post61455)
showthread.php?14544-Working-on-my-idle-tune (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14544-Working-on-my-idle-tune)
showthread.php?14794-Help-with-open-loop-%28cold-start%29-tuning (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14794-Help-with-open-loop-%28cold-start%29-tuning&p=133446#post133446)
showthread.php?149-Idle-%28Transition%29-Tuning (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?149-Idle-%28Transition%29-Tuning)
Stumble-3-seconds-after-cold-start&p=178921#post178921 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14144-Stumble-3-seconds-after-cold-start&p=178921#post178921)
Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks:post#46 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks&p=193144&viewfull=1#post193144)

More Idle Tuning
showthread.php?t=149 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=149)
showthread.php?t=5866 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5866&highlight=RAFIG)
showthread.php?p=86553 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?p=86553) post #17
showthread.php?t=2630 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=2630)
showthread.php?t=473 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=473)

Throttle Cracker/Follower
showthread.php?t=3568 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=3568)
showthread.php?t=4081 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4081)
showthread.php?t=5406 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5406)
showthread.php?t=5940 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5940)


Make sure that a MAF DTC triggers immediately <-- important

[sac811]

It means the idle air is not correct... you will need to do some idle tuning, have a look thru here:



Make sure that a MAF DTC triggers immediately <-- important

When you say idle air is not correct, do you mean Desired Airflow (B4307) in the Idle subfolder?

[joecar]

Yes.

[sac811]

Yes.

I got it to startup and idle until it reached operating temperatures. But how do I update B4307 with new numbers without a MAF Sensor?

Here is the log I made:

16226

Thank you for all the help

Jeremy

[joecar]

Use GM.DYNAIR in place of SAE.MAF... but note that GM.DYNAIR relies on VE table being close.

[sac811]

For my corrections to VE table MAP, I will be having columns of KPa vs rows of rpms obviously, but for the data I will be using BEN from Wideband factor (WO2BEN) correct?

[joecar]

Yes, for VE table map, Data is CALC.WO2BEN.

For idle tuning, use CALC.RAFIG (see the idle tuning threads above).

[sac811]

Ok, so having a bit of trouble here.

At light throttle and idle the AFR is Stoich to richer than stoich. But as soon as I give it more than about 5% throttle the AFR goes WAY LEAN.

I'm at home now and just added a bunch of fuel to b3605 to temporalily not destroy the motor. I am attaching the log that showed super lean.

16227

Tune:

16228

Which was 1.00 eq ratio across the board for warmer temps non-PE mod.

1. Other than adding to b3605 is there something wrong or somewhere else I need to look for the problem?

2. Or is that what I need to do until I get some logs for the VE table to be corrected and then I should be able to drop back the Open Loop Commanded fuel to around 1.00 eq again after that?

Basically while under load it goes lean, but once cruising at speed it goes back to close to stoich

Thanks

[joecar]

Are you getting a MAF DTC...?

Is your FPR manifold-referenced...?

Is your B4001 table correct for your injectors...?


Disable B4206 (the tutorial does not mention this, the tutorial was written based on 2002 F-car which already had it disabled).

You still have CL enabled, see B4205.

[sac811]

everything is correct but once I get home I need to check on 4206 because I'm not sure about that

[sac811]

Are you getting a MAF DTC...?

Is your FPR manifold-referenced...?

Is your B4001 table correct for your injectors...?


Disable B4206 (the tutorial does not mention this, the tutorial was written based on 2002 F-car which already had it disabled).

You still have CL enabled, see B4205.

If you look at the last tune I posted, post #9, 4206 is disabled and 4205 is set to 284 degrees F.

And yes my injector information is correct, the FPR I have is on my fuel rail and has a vacuum line going from it to the intake.

Basically I ended up plugging in higher eq ratios into table B3605 to get the AFR in a much safer range, but it is definitely rich now. But even with it rich, if I give it enough gas to hit a higher map, but not enable PE, it still went slightly lean for a split second, then goes back rich.

Here is the new log with rich B3605:

16229

1. Am I still able to use the WO2BEN/VE table update from this log or because of the richness will it mess things up?

2. If it isn't useable, how do I go about have normal stoich driving around to be able to get proper VE table updates?

3. Also probably VE related, but I'm gettting:
a. cruise control effect from the throttle after getting up to speed that I never had before
b. 2-3k rpm rev when switching from park to Drive and vice versus most times
c. And when stopped at idle for a few seconds, it will randomly rev to 2k, come back down to idle, and then die.

Never had any of those before and have messed with throttle cracker and follower before this intake and it was fine.

4. What sort of fine tuning do I need to do if VE tuning doesn't fix some of this?

Thanks again.

Jeremy

EDIT: reading the tutorial for SD, I see that I was supposed to increase all cells in b0101 by 15% and I never did that, so I'm assuming that would be where my lean problem is coming from.

[joecar]

Ah, I must have been looking at the tune file in post #1... I'll take a closer look at the one in post #9.

You don't need to increase the VE table by 15%... this is only for big mods (increase in displacement and/or a large cam).

[sac811]

You don't need to increase the VE table by 15%... this is only for big mods (increase in displacement and/or a large cam).

1. Am I still able to use the WO2BEN/VE table update from this log or because of the richness will it mess things up?

2. If it isn't useable, how do I go about have normal stoich driving around to be able to get proper VE table updates?

3. Also probably VE related, but I'm gettting:
a. cruise control effect from the throttle after getting up to speed that I never had before
b. 2-3k rpm rev when switching from park to Drive and vice versus most times
c. And when stopped at idle for a few seconds, it will randomly rev to 2k, come back down to idle, and then die.Never had any of those before and have messed with throttle cracker and follower before this intake and it was fine.*

4. What sort of fine tuning do I need to do if VE tuning doesn't fix some of this?

[joecar]

Hmmm, from what you said in post #14, I'm inclined to think your FAST might have an airleak (internally, at the runner ends)...

adding this intake will cause some change to VE table, but not so drastic as what you're seeing.

[sac811]

Hmmm, from what you said in post #14, I'm inclined to think your FAST might have an airleak (internally, at the runner ends)...

adding this intake will cause some change to VE table, but not so drastic as what you're seeing.

How would I go about determining if I have an internal air leak?

It is going from a 78mm gen3 truck intake to a 102mm tb/lsxrt intake.

Can I use the autove to attempt to tune it to drive better in the mean time even with the rich open loop?

[sac811]

On the internal runner gaskets where they meet the exterior of the intake, what do u recommend I use to seal it with?

Rtv, jb weld, copper gasket maker?

[joecar]

I'm not sure how to seal the FAST, but I have seen several cases where they are difficult to seal... some people use RTV, but I'm not sure if that's the best.

[joecar]

Also, did you use the low-profile valley cover bolts...?

[sac811]

Also, did you use the low-profile valley cover bolts...?

Yes I did, and from all I can tell the intake is completely sealed to the heads.

But if it is an internal air leak how can I check for that without ripping the entire intake apart and detaching the runners and rtving them etc?

[joecar]

Yes I did, and from all I can tell the intake is completely sealed to the heads.

But if it is an internal air leak how can I check for that without ripping the entire intake apart and detaching the runners and rtving them etc?I'm not sure... there are some threads regarding this on ls1tech.

[sac811]

I'm not sure... there are some threads regarding this on ls1tech.

does it make any sense that none of the problems described take place before its up to operating temperature only once its there?

[joecar]

does it make any sense that none of the problems described take place before its up to operating temperature only once its there?Partly.

And tha you said it run fine before the intake swap.

What you see in the logs cannot be accounted for by an intake swap.

[sac811]

Partly.

And tha you said it run fine before the intake swap.

What you see in the logs cannot be accounted for by an intake swap.

Guess i'm going to pull it all apart and rtv anything that has a seal to make sure it seals up right.

Annoying as hell, cause this intake already required a lot more than it should have to install in the first place. At least it will be easier this time though.

[DocZ28]

Guess i'm going to pull it all apart and rtv anything that has a seal to make sure it seals up right.

Annoying as hell, cause this intake already required a lot more than it should have to install in the first place. At least it will be easier this time though.


I have a similar problem with a FAST intake, it was leaking from the upper shield. It appers to be a common problem, I use a rvt to seal it and no more leaks.

[sac811]

should I still be attempting to get my Idle air control sensor to be between 40 and 60 steps?

[sac811]

should I still be attempting to get my Idle air control sensor to be between 40 and 60 steps?

Well just went for a ride in the truck after RTVing EVERYTHING that you possibly can other than the throttle body to the actual intake, and it appears I still have the same problem...just not as bad as before.

Not as much hanging rpm causing cruise control effect, but still there some.
Sometimes high rev from gear change
Sometimes random rev, come down, rev a little less then die.

But I did notice one thing when it does this my IAC steps are always 0 steps. With the idle set screw all the unscrewed (aka metal to metal stop contact without no gap from screw), the steps are between 5-10. But the throttle cable and cruise cable are too short to be able to let it completely touch. So the cable holds the blade a hair from complete close.

But with the 5-10 steps back in IAC it seems to run better.

Any ideas as to how to adjust the cables for more IAC steps? or some other way of having higher IAC counts?

I think this could be the key to my problem.

Only other place I can think of that MAY not seal correctly and that I could RTV are the Injectors. They are just pushed down in their spots and hold on with brackets, even using the FAST injector O-rings (which I am using) they are no where near as snug as they were in the original intake.

Any help or other ideas?

Honestly otherwise I will just put the stock intake back on and throw this piece of garbage intake away.

[joecar]

IAC always zero: PCM is trying to reduce air but IAC is pegged at zero... too much air is getting around the throttle blade.

Check that you have the correct injector o-rings and that they are lubed during install.

[sac811]

I am attempting to log llong term fuel trims what else do I need to log other than long term fuel trim averages for it to show up?

[joecar]

Try the RAFIG procedure to see how close it is.

[sac811]

Try the RAFIG procedure to see how close it is.

I am trying to log ltfts in closed loop to check for vacuum leaks. What pids do I need to log for ltft bank 1 & 2 %s?

[joecar]

Ah, I see...

log LONGFT1 and LONGFT2... maybe also log SHRTFT1 and SHRTFT2.

[sac811]

I am attempting to log RAFIG and REFPN, but I cant find the stit of ltit pids as described in other threads. What are the proper pids to log for the RAFIG pid to function properly?

[mr.prick]

system drop box> idle
right click the pid for more info & to select the units.

AC off
{CALC.RAFIG}
Grams/s = {GM.IAC_LTD_DMA.gps}+{GM.IAC_STD_DMA.gps}
Lbs/Min = {GM.IAC_LTD_DMA.lbpm}+{GM.IAC_STD_DMA.lbpm}'

{CALC.RAFPN}
Grams/s = {GM.IAC_LTPN_DMA.gps}+{GM.IAC_STPN_DMA.gps}
Lbs/Min = {GM.IAC_LTPN_DMA.lbpm}+{GM.IAC_STPN_DMA.lbpm}

AC on
{CALC.RAFACIG}
Grams/s = {GM.IAC_LTDAC_DMA.gps}+{GM.IAC_STDAC_DMA.gps}
Lbs/Min = {GM.IAC_LTDAC_DMA.lbpm}+{GM.IAC_STDAC_DMA.lbpm}

{CALC.RAFACPN}
Grams/s = {GM.IAC_LTPNAC_DMA.gps}+{GM.IAC_STPNAC_DMA.gps}
Lbs/Min = {GM.IAC_LTPNAC_DMA.lbpm}+{GM.IAC_STPNAC_DMA.lbpm}

[sac811]

Awesome doggie, thanks for the help.

[sac811]

Do these logs with fuel trims logged seem to indicate a vacuum leak?

16270
16271

Or just further tuning that needs to be done to where IAC counts dont drop to zero, VE tuning, etc.?

It still goes pretty lean without adding in commanded fuel when in SDOL, but these logs were in SDCL.

Thanks again for all the help

[sac811]

Anyone?

[joecar]

I'll be able to look later today...

[sac811]

I'll be able to look later today...

Did u have a chance to look?

[joecar]

Did u have a chance to look?You're on my ToDoNow list... :)

[sac811]

You're on my ToDoNow list... :)

Thank you, I appreciate all your help.

[sac811]

From what I have seen looking around with my ltfts +/-2 % on average, it would seem to indicate that I do not have a vacuum leak. So I guess I'm now looking into moving my cable bracket slightly so I can completely close the throttle blade and get IAC counts to a somewhat normal level like around 40 if possible in park/N when completely warmed up.

Then looking into detailed idle tuning from the links Joecar usually posts.

Will see what I can do from that.

I'm a little more hopeful even if it doesn't run that great right now.

[joecar]

Sorry, my In-Laws are staying at my house for a few days and it is hectic... :wallbash:

[joecar]

From your logs, I can't tell if there's airleaks...

however, I see your ignition timing is too high in general (30° at high load is too high for the head design).

[sac811]

What should my timing be at high load/wot instead of 30?

[joecar]

Around 25 degrees for NA.

[sac811]

Giving up on this intake.

Run RAFIG and RAFPN and the vehicle runs worse everytime I do adjust based on them.

I just got done putting it back in open loop to tune VE and its still doing pretty crappy. Also on Tip in it goes lean and let off goes rich.

Even though with it closed loop ltfts dont seem to indicate a vacuum leak, I can only assume thats still the issue.

I'm tired of the weeks of time tuning, installing and reinstalling, going to attempt to get my money back I believe.

I wish I could back charge FAST (Comp) for all my wasted time, etc.

You think these people that have problems are just the minority complaining, until you become one those people and realize it is just a crappy product for a RIDICULOUS price.

Thanks for all the help, but I quit.