Manual vs Auto

[ezobens]

I'm still trying to learn all of this tuning 'stuff' and am reading documentation and poking around in EFI Live but I do have a question that I haven't been able to find an answer for yet.

When looking at the 12212156 OS, I have 2 different files- One for an Automatic and one for a Manual trans.
Other than where it states 'Manual' or 'Automatic' I can't see anything in the config itself that seems to be different?
All the parameters seem to still be based on an Automatic (shift points, pressures, converter lock-up etc) and I see nothing that appears to be Manual trans specific?
Even when I look under 'Speedometer' most of the VSS related parameters state that they are not applicable to Manual trans.
Am I over thinking this? Is there anything I need for a Manual trans?
I plan on running a VSS and the brake/clutch switches but I just can't seem to find where this all comes into play.

Sorry if this is a really stupid question-
Thanks!
Elm

[joecar]

The differences are in the non-calibration portions of the Transmission segment and Transmission Diagnostics segment (i.e. the invisible portions).

To run the manual trans you need the manual trans file (so it recognizes the CPP switch).

[ezobens]

The differences are in the non-calibration portions of the Transmission segment and Transmission Diagnostics segment (i.e. the invisible portions).

To run the manual trans you need the manual trans file (so it recognizes the CPP switch).

Ahh.. OK. At least I'm not going crazy ;-)
So is the VSS information strictly limited to the 'Speedometer' section?
I guess I only need to provide the information for the fields that aren't ignored by the Manual transmission selection?
Thanks!
Elm

[ezobens]

OK- Getting back to this project 2 years later.. I hate it when life gets in the way ;-)

Anyway, getting back to trying to figure out how to actually swap segments in a 2002 L31 Express Van tune to replace the auto trans with a manual.
I looked in the EFI Live doc and in the forums but I'm still not understanding what's involved here-
Looking in EFI Live, I can export a 'Calibration List' and 'Calibration Data'. Which is required to swap segments for the transmission?
When I try to export the 'Calibration Data' I get a .csv file with everything- Is 'swapping segments' just replacing specific pieces from a manual trans .csv file to the 2002 Express van .csv file?
How do I know what the entire transmission segment consists of?
Sorry if this is really a dumb question but it's been 2 years since I've played with this and I've never attempted to swap segments before.
Thank you for your time!
Elm

[joecar]

In tunetool:
- open your working/main/base tune file;
- open as alternate the segment donor file;
- go Edit->Copy Entire Segment->Transmission Calibration;
- go Edit->Copy Entire Segment->Transmission Diagnostics;
- go File->Save As and save with a new filename.

When swapping to a manual trans, it might be better to start with a manual trans file and to copy over all the other tables (which of course is timing intensive, but can be done).

[Highlander]

You should swap systems too....

[ezobens]

In tunetool:
- open your working/main/base tune file;
- open as alternate the segment donor file;
- go Edit->Copy Entire Segment->Transmission Calibration;
- go Edit->Copy Entire Segment->Transmission Diagnostics;
- go File->Save As and save with a new filename.

When swapping to a manual trans, it might be better to start with a manual trans file and to copy over all the other tables (which of course is timing intensive, but can be done).

Wow, that was almost too simple ;-) I can't understand why I didn't see that before?

Can you clarify your last statement regarding starting with a manual trans file and copy everything else over? What would be the advantage of doing that? My project most closely resembles a 2002 L31 Express Van configuration with the manual trans being the only significant variation. It appears the only manual trans files using the same OS have LS motors vs a 'traditional' SBC.
Why would swapping everything else vs just the trans segment(s) be a better option? Are there other parameters I could take advantage of? I'm open to any suggestions that will make this a better tune, even if it takes a bit more effort to get there.
Thank you for your time!
Elm

[joecar]

The manual trans file comes with other tables set up for manual trans/clutch... for example, the Engine Calibration's idle P/N and IG tables are different between manual trans and auto trans files; there are other visible and invisible differences.

But first try a segment swap (also do the System segment as was suggested above) and see how it goes.

[ezobens]

The manual trans file comes with other tables set up for manual trans/clutch... for example, the Engine Calibration's idle P/N and IG tables are different between manual trans and auto trans files; there are other visible and invisible differences.

But first try a segment swap (also do the System segment as was suggested above) and see how it goes.

Thank you for clarifying.
I will try the Trans/System segment swap for now and go from there-
I'll report back with my results (or any additional questions).
Thank you!
Elm

[ezobens]

One more related (and perhaps dumb?) question:
My 5-speed has a neutral switch-
Would it help or do anything if I connected this switch to the 411 PCM?
The automatics use it but I don't see any provision for one in the manual wiring diagrams?
Seems it would be helpful if you're coasting down from high speed with the trans in neutral to prevent stalling?
Perhaps I should wire it in series with the CPP switch (I would need to use a relay to convert the signal from NC to NO) so that when either the clutch is depressed or the trans is in neutral, the connection would be open?
Thoughts?
Thanks!
Elm

[Highlander]

No, wont make a difference.

[ezobens]

OK, it's been a while but I finally got everything together and fired up.. Well almost..
The car will fire and run for a few seconds and then die-
It almost acts like it's not getting enough fuel (40# injectors @ 58 PSI- Plenty of fuel for this engine).
I've got good spark (lights right up and runs smoothly for the few seconds it does run) but I don't know how to tell if the distributor is perfectly set since this is an aftermarket intake and the Vortec distributor doesn't allow for adjustment without modifying the clamp.

Now for the fun part, how do I troubleshoot something that only runs for a few seconds?
Are there any logs I can pull from the PCM to help point me in the right direction?
I started off with a 2002 L31 Express Van tune and modified it accordingly.
Sorry if this is a really basic question but I'm just trying to determine where to start with troubleshooting 101-
Any advice would be most appreciated.
Thank you!
Elm

[ezobens]

I can't believe it's 2017 and I still don't have this car on the road!
The good news is that the car starts and I was able to dial in the CMPRET to +-2 degrees.
The challenge I'm having is getting the car to start and run consistently. Sometimes it will start right up, other times I have to hold the throttle open to get it to finally start. Once I do get it started it will typically (but not always) idle pretty smoothly around 1000 RPM. I tried to do the CASE re-learn but I can't get the car to run well enough (consistently) to finish the process. The latest behavior is that it now will surge from around 900 to 1700 RPM at idle and I am at a loss to explain why when it hasn't surged before?

A little background:
Car is a 69' Corvette with a 409 CI Gen I SBC running a FIRST TPI intake and a 2000 Camaro Fuel module with a returnless fuel system (C5 Corvette fuel filter/regulator). I started with a 2002 L31 tune and swapped segments for the transmission (running a manual), MAF (running a 5-Wire LS1 Corvette MAF) but am still running the L31 coil and Vortec Distributor. I've updated the injector table for 40# injectors and updated the engine parameters to the current displacement. It's basically a 409 CI version of a TPI motor (complete with IAC, MAF, MAP and TPS sensors) running a 411 PCM.
I am running a mechanical flat tappet cam (233/241 @ .050, .505/.520 Lift, 110 LSA) so the vacuum at idle (1000 RPM) is about 12".

I know I've made a fair amount of changes to the various tables to emulate the fuel and spark tables of a LS1 Corvette but I'm somewhat stuck as far as where to go from here with interpreting the datalogs and how to systematically dial in the tune to make the car driveable.
The only DTC I'm getting to date is the P1336, which to be expected since I have yet to complete the CASE relearn.
I've found several threads with good information but I'm not really sure as to the order to tackle them since everything seems to be interrelated. I do have a wideband O2 sensor but until I can get it running more consistently, I'm not sure there is a need to use it just yet.

Any suggestions would be most appreciated. I can also post my tune and datalogs if anyone needs a good laugh.
Thank you for your time!
Elm

[joecar]

Hey Elm,

Sometimes (most times) many other things get in the way, so our projects take a back seat.

I can suggest post your tune file and some log files, someone will view them and offer suggestions (me included).

Also, keep handy the stock tune file in case you have to compare and/or go back.

[ezobens]

Joe,
Thank you for the advice.
I've (attempted) to attach my current tune and some log examples.
One is from when I could get it to idle OK and the other from when the surging at idle occurred (both clips were recorded about 15 minutes apart).
Forgive my ignorance but do I also need to provide my PIDs/Dashboard in order for folks to view these data logs?
Thank you!
Elm

20678
20679
20680

[joecar]

The pids/dashboard files allow other users to see your log using your view, they are not necessary, but they make it easier.

Typically, the advanced user prefers to look at logs using their own view.

[ezobens]

The pids/dashboard files allow other users to see your log using your view, they are not necessary, but they make it easier.

Typically, the advanced user prefers to look at logs using their own view.

Thank you for clarifying Joe.
I guess I'll wait to see if anyone wants me to post them.
Elm

[joecar]

Remove some pids to bring the pid channel count to 24 or lower (see bottom of PIDs tab)... this will give 10 frames/second (instead of 5).

[ezobens]

This is one of areas I still am learning-
When I look at my PIDs, it shows I only have 24 selected yet when I look at the data it shows more.
I don't understand why it shows more than I selected or how to remove the ones that appear but weren't selected?
Both the PID and Data screens indicate 24 PIDs 'selected' but 33 'Channels' in the bar at the bottom- What am I doing wrong?
It appears there is not a 1 to 1 between PID and Channel, so how do I know which PID(s) use more than 1 channel?
Also, are there PIDs that I should be viewing vs what I have selected?
Thank you!
Elm

[joecar]

Some pids occupy 2 or 4 channels.

On the PIDs tab there is a column indicating the number of channels per pid.

~Moderator~

[joecar]

Typical general logging:
SAE.VSS
SAE.RPM
SAE.MAF
SAE.MAP
SAE.TP
SAE.IAT
SAE.ECT
SAE.LONGFT1 & 2
GM.HO2S11 & 21
GM.SPARKADV
GM.KR
GM.EQIVRATIO
GM.DYNAIR
CALC.CYLAIR

~Moderator~

[joecar]

For idle tuning you need some other pids, including CALC.RAFIG and RAFPN...

on the PIDs tab, if you go rightclick->More Info on a CALC pid it says what other pids are required to be selected.

~Moderator~

[ezobens]

Ahh! Hiding in plain sight. lol
OK, I'll eventually get the hang of this.
I will create a new template and dashboard with the parameters you suggested (and under 25 channels) and capture more logs this weekend.
Thank you again!
Elm

[ezobens]

OK-
Here is the latest and greatest.
I did modify the tune prior to this run- I multiplied the entire VE table by 1.2 to accommodate the difference in displacement of an LS1 vs a 409 SBC.
Car didn't surge this time but it still wants to die whenever you flick the throttle unless you feather the throttle back to idle.
The long term fuel trim also took a good 10 minutes of run time before it started displaying data and by the end of the run (16 minutes or so), the LTFT was -18% on both banks.
I hope someone can make some sense out of this.
Thanks,
Elm

20698

[joecar]

Ok, idle tuning requires the VE and MAF tables to be close.

~Moderator~

[ezobens]

Joe,
I don't know what that really means or how I get there?
The VE table is 'air mass per cylinder' and the MAF parameter is 'flow rate vs frequency'.
Apples to kumquats to me?
Please explain what 'close' means in regard to the two and how do I get there?
My apologizes for being so green with all this but I really do want to understand.
Thank you,
Elm

[joecar]

When the VE and MAF tables are close to the engine's actual physical conditions, then fueling/spark will be correct for those conditions, and the idle algorithms have a better chance of controlling idle...

any differences in the throttle body and intake manifold from stock will require editing the idle tables in addition to correcting VE/MAF.

[joecar]

Let me point you to the Calc.VET procedure in the Gen III section...

start with this procedure (it has links to various reading material), it is the easiest way to get started.

The GM ECM's are quite complex, there are many interdependencies among the tables.



~Moderator~

[joecar]

When I get home to my laptop later tonite, I'll post some reading material url's.

~Moderator~

[ezobens]

Thank you so much for your help and patience Joe!
Yes, I probably have my work cut out for me-
The entire configuration is non-stock from the engine to the FIRST TPI intake to the throttle body.
Looks like I'll be doing lots of reading.
Thank you for your time and advice with this.
Elm

[ezobens]

So it appears I can only do the Calc.VET with a wideband O2?
Can I replace one of the existing NB O2 sensors with the WB?
Will this affect how I can datalog or tune the PCM?
I have a 14point7 WB O2 reader- Will this provide the info I need or do I need to connect this to EFILive somehow?
Thank you,
Elm

[joecar]

Hi Elm,

Without a wideband, you can do some limited tuning using the LTFT's... but this would not cover sufficent portions of the VE and MAF tables...

a wideband is recommended.

Yes, you could replace one NBO2 with a wideband, but you would disable trims, and tailor Calc.VET to use wideband only (so this becomes AutoMAF), and of course make sure VE does not contribute (either disable it, or filter it out).

Some widebands, like the LC-2, provide outputs for wb and nb signals.

~Moderator~

[ezobens]

After a long and challenging year, I am finally getting back to working on this tune.
I've been reading topics regarding CALC.VE and CALC.VET
Which would be best suited for my tuning needs (0411 PCM, Modified L31 Tune utilizing MAP and MAF)?
I don't understand which one would be more appropriate for what applications?

EDIT:
I'm working through the CALC.VET Tutorial and am stuck on the PID selection.
I am unable to find any of the 'BEN' PIDs specified in the tutorial in the PID selection screen. Where do I get these?

Also,
I am getting some 4.9 Widebands from 14point7-
I can't seem to find any documentation that tells me what wideband sensors and controllers will work with the V2 and how to connect them.
Is there a link somewhere that has this information?

I really need to get this car on the road so I need to get up to speed on how all this stuff connects.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!
Elm

[joecar]

After a long and challenging year, I am finally getting back to working on this tune.
I've been reading topics regarding CALC.VE and CALC.VET
Which would be best suited for my tuning needs (0411 PCM, Modified L31 Tune utilizing MAP and MAF)?
I don't understand which one would be more appropriate for what applications?

I hope all is well with you.

Calc.VET is the later version of Calc.VE.



EDIT:
I'm working through the CALC.VET Tutorial and am stuck on the PID selection.
I am unable to find any of the 'BEN' PIDs specified in the tutorial in the PID selection screen. Where do I get these?

Did you download the calc_pids.txt file from post#1 of the Calc.VET thread (see below) and save it in the EFILive V7 User Configuration folder...?



I. PROCEDURE for SERIAL WIDEBAND and V2

1. Setup Calculated PIDS:

calc_pids.txt (https://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14575&d=1360953394) <--- updated calc_pids.txt file








Also,
I am getting some 4.9 Widebands from 14point7-
I can't seem to find any documentation that tells me what wideband sensors and controllers will work with the V2 and how to connect them.
Is there a link somewhere that has this information?

See attached screenshot of V8 S&T FSV2 device setup.

[ezobens]

Joe,
Thank you.
Cancer treatments take up alot of my time but my goal is to get this car driveable in the next 30-60 days!
Yes, I did copy over the CALC_PIDS.txt file.
Do I need to relaunch the app or something to get it to 'take'?
Also, for the wideband, I don't see 14point7- Do I just start from the top and try different settings till I find one that works?
Thank you for your time!
Elm

[joecar]

Hey Elm,

I hope you kill it off good and proper.


Exit the V7 scantool and restart it... on the PIDs tab, click on the column heading Parameter to sort alphabetically on this column, so you can now scroll down to find the pid CALC.WO2BEN...

double-click to select this pid, then if it has a red X thru it, go rightclick->More Info to see which other pids it depends on.


Does 14point7 have a user/tech manual pdf that I can look at...?

If we can't get serial comms going between the 14point7 and the FSV2, we can connect up using analog (in this case, I can edit the calc_pids.txt to suit this).

[ezobens]

Thank you Joe!
Here is a link to their doc:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0189/1312/files/iDash_User_Manual.pdf?2263995484321716765

Scroll down to page 15 and 16.
Let me know if this answers your question or if I need to ping them directly for an answer.
Thanks again!
Elm

[joecar]

Thank you Joe!
Here is a link to their doc:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0189/1312/files/iDash_User_Manual.pdf?2263995484321716765

Scroll down to page 15 and 16.
Let me know if this answers your question or if I need to ping them directly for an answer.
Thanks again!
ElmTheir doc does not show any serial comms data formats... I'm asking Paul if he knows anything about their format.

[ezobens]

I suspect it’s an analog signal.
If you can phrase the question(s) for me, I can e-mail them to Alan at 14point7- He designed all their stuff.
Thank you,
Elm

[Blacky]

Thank you Joe!
Here is a link to their doc:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0189/1312/files/iDash_User_Manual.pdf?2263995484321716765

Scroll down to page 15 and 16.
Let me know if this answers your question or if I need to ping them directly for an answer.
Thanks again!
Elm

FlashScan won't be able to communicate with that wide band controller, not until they implement some sort of serial data output.
See page 17 of the manual. It says the RS232 (serial) ports are not available and are for future expansion.

Regards
Paul

[ezobens]

That’s discouraging.
At the risk of asking a stupid question(s), what type of ‘data’ is Flashscan looking for?
02 sensors generate a voltage that translates to an AFR. What other data is it looking for?
Please help me understand.
Thank you for your time.
Elm

[Blacky]

That’s discouraging.
At the risk of asking a stupid question(s), what type of ‘data’ is Flashscan looking for?
02 sensors generate a voltage that translates to an AFR. What other data is it looking for?
Please help me understand.
Thank you for your time.
Elm

FlashScan can always read the analog wide band voltage signal between 0-5V. I presume that wide band controller has a wide band analog output voltage.
It's just that the analog signal is noisy, less accurate and prone to drifting compared to the digital/serial interface.

Rergards
Paul

[ezobens]

OK, so I’m not totally dead in the water.
It does provide 0-5V analog.
Thank you for clarifying!
Elm

[ezobens]

If we can't get serial comms going between the 14point7 and the FSV2, we can connect up using analog (in this case, I can edit the calc_pids.txt to suit this).

Joe,
Looks like analog it will have to be.
At your convenience, could you create the modified calc_pids.txt for me?
I don

[joecar]

Yes, I'll set it done a little later today.

[joecar]

Elm,

Please try the attached calc_pids.txt

[joecar]

Connect your 14POINT7 analog 0-5V signal to FSV2 AD1+ and signal ground to AD1- (FSV2 input pins are labelled on back, turn FSV2 over).

[ezobens]

Thanks Joe!
I’ll let you know if I run into any snags.
I don’t know what I would do without your help.
Thank you!
Elm

[joecar]

No worries :cheers:

[ezobens]

OK, I am able to get all the PIDs to display properly now. :coool:

I do have a question on the "Tips and Considerations" I see in the Calc.Vet Tutorial and Summary docs.
Are these things I need to change in my tune before I start the Calc.Vet logging and do I revert them back to their original values after or do they stay set as indicated below?
Sorry for all the questions- I want to make sure I do this correctly.
Thank you!
Elm

Summary doc:
III. CALC.VET Tuning Tips
1. B0701: Disable Catalytic Converter Protection
Insures accurate stoich and PE mode/WOT Fueling
2. B0120: Change RPM Threshold for Airflow Calculation from 4000 to 400
Eliminates any Airflow Correction from the VE Table
3. B3308: Disable DFCO: Change B3308 (M6) to 140C Change B3313 to 140C
Accurate fueling computations
4. B4105: O2 Switch-points to 450 Millivolts
Smoother MAF & VE Table
5. B3618: PE Modifier Based on Rpm (EQ): 1.16
Safe adequate Fueling regardless of Fuel Type
6. B3616: PE Enable: make sure PE enables as load becomes significant
(e.g. below 60% TP below 3200 rpm, 35% TP above 3200 rpm).
7. B3608 and B3609: PE Delay: set these to zeros.

And in the Tutorial:
Additional Considerations:
1. Table {B0120} “RPM Threshold For Airflow Calculation”:
Change RPM Threshold to 400 RPM. This will eliminate the airflow correction that is
applied from the VE Table B0101. The amount of airflow correction and its effects on
LTFTs is complex. Most beginning users can leave the RPM Threshold at 4000 RPMs.
Your LTFTs will update over time, so it is always best to perform additional Quality Control
runs periodically.
2. Parameters {B3308} and {B3313} for Disabling DFCO:
Set temperature to 140

[joecar]

1. B0701: Disable Catalytic Converter Protection
Insures accurate stoich and PE mode/WOT Fueling

If you have catalysts, set this to enabled, otherwise leave this disabled.




2. B0120: Change RPM Threshold for Airflow Calculation from 4000 to 400
Eliminates any Airflow Correction from the VE Table

Set this back to stock.




3. B3308: Disable DFCO: Change B3308 (M6) to 140C Change B3313 to 140C
Accurate fueling computations

If you want DFCO to activate, set these back to stock.




4. B4105: O2 Switch-points to 450 Millivolts
Smoother MAF & VE Table

Leave this as is at 450 mV.




5. B3618: PE Modifier Based on Rpm (EQ): 1.16
Safe adequate Fueling regardless of Fuel Type

Leave this as is (any value in the range EQR 1.160 to 1.175 is ok).




6. B3616: PE Enable: make sure PE enables as load becomes significant
(e.g. below 60% TP below 3200 rpm, 35% TP above 3200 rpm).

Leave as is (you want PE to be readily available).




7. B3608 and B3609: PE Delay: set these to zeros.

Leave as is.

[joecar]

And in the Tutorial:
Additional Considerations:
1. Table {B0120} “RPM Threshold For Airflow Calculation”:
Change RPM Threshold to 400 RPM. This will eliminate the airflow correction that is
applied from the VE Table B0101. The amount of airflow correction and its effects on
LTFTs is complex. Most beginning users can leave the RPM Threshold at 4000 RPMs.
Your LTFTs will update over time, so it is always best to perform additional Quality Control
runs periodically.
Set back to stock when finished tuning.




2. Parameters {B3308} and {B3313} for Disabling DFCO:
Set temperature to 140
Set back to stock when finished tuning.

[ezobens]

Perfect!
Just what I needed.
My widebands will hopefully arrive this week so I can give this a shot next weekend.
Thanks again Joe!

[joecar]

No worries.

[ezobens]

Well, as my luck would have it, my new WBO2s arrived on Friday and now the weather is too crappy to take the car out to get some logs (I won't take it out with salt on the roads). So it appears I'm in a holding pattern for a while.
I did have a question on hooking up 2 WBO2s with Calc.Vet- Is it possible?
Since it appears that I do have some differences (nothing too major) between the banks when looking at my fuel trims, does it make sense (or is it even possible) to look at both bank's WBO2s while running Calc.Vet?
Just curious.
Happy Holidays!
Elm

[joecar]

Yes, we can edit the calc_pids.txt file to use 2 widebands...

I dynamically select the leanest wideband (i.e. I have a calc pid that selects the leanest lambda on-the-fly)...

we can edit this into your calc_pids.txt file...

connect your two 14POINT7 wideband to FSV2's AD1 and AD2.

[ezobens]

Yes, we can edit the calc_pids.txt file to use 2 widebands...

I dynamically select the leanest wideband (i.e. I have a calc pid that selects the leanest lambda on-the-fly)...

we can edit this into your calc_pids.txt file...

connect your two 14POINT7 wideband to FSV2's AD1 and AD2.

That would be outstanding!
I will be building my WB logging wiring harness over the holidays so I can incorporate both WBO2s into the design.
Thank you again Joe!
I don't know where I would be without your advice and expertise.
Elm

[joecar]

I modified your calc_pids.txt (from post #46 above), see attached.

[ezobens]

Wow, that was FAST!
This is excellent Joe, thank you SO much for doing this for me.
I'll keep you posted when I can finally get some logging done.
Elm

[joecar]

no worries :good:

[ezobens]

Well, I finally got everything wired up and did a trial run in place (snow on the ground, can't take the car out).
I've attached the log file from my test- I'm not sure if I'm doing everything correctly but it appears I am collecting data.
The challenge I am having is getting all the data points (PIDs) selected that I need without going over 24.
I would like to see Spark Advance and IAC counts but that would take me over 24-

Joe,
At your convenience, can you take a look at this log and let me know your thoughts?
Off the top, it appears I'm running very lean at start-up and fairly lean when it comes up to temp.
I am also having an issue with keeping the car idling consistently- Seems I always need to mess with the idle stop screw on the the throttle body to keep the car from dying. It runs OK for a while and then it slows down and/or stalls unless to change the idle screw setting again.
The Calc.Vet table just looks weird.
I realize I haven't taken the car on the road to collect this data so I'm not sure if that makes the data in this table null and void?
Thank you for your time.
Elm

[joecar]

Post your current tune file.

[ezobens]

Post your current tune file.

This is what I'm currently running.
Thank you,
Elm

21774

[joecar]

Important:

in tunetool, you have Fueling Units set to Lambda...
go Edit->Properties->Display and under Commanded Fuel Values set Display In to EQR,
exit tunetool, restart tunetool;

then:
goto table B3618, and set all cells to EQR 1.175 (look at upper-right panel, shows Units),
save file.

[joecar]

When you did Calc.VET, did you:
- apply the MAF correction to the MAF table B5001...?
- paste VE calculation into the VE table B0101...?

Now, you may have to do some idle tuning (which is more involed/tedious)...
have a read thru these (sorry about any pics hosted elsewhere):
- 4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside)
- 26435-RAFIG-PDF-Includes-all-of-SSpdmon-idle-info (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?26435-RAFIG-PDF-Includes-all-of-SSpdmon-idle-info)

[ezobens]

Joe,
I made the changes per your instructions on post #64.
I'm assuming when you say "did Calc.VET" that implies that I ran a log based on all the PIDs and parameters listed in all your previous posts, correct?
If so, I did not apply the data collected in the 2 tables I created based on the Calc.VET doc as I wasn't sure if this data was any 'good' since I wasn't physically driving the car.
However, If you are saying I should apply the data I collected so far, I can do that.
I will also read the docs you provided in your last post.
Thank you.

Other than the change you had me do in post #64, did you notice any glaring deficiencies in my current tune or am I at least kinda-sorta in the general ballpark?
As always, thank you so much for your expertise, time and patience.
Elm

[ezobens]

Attached is my latest tune with the idle mods incorporated as well as the change requested in post #64.
The question of the day is if I should run RAFIG before or after I perform CALC.VET or does it matter?

I'm still confused by the data I collected in my posted log file-
The 'VET' log has some really screwy values going from single digits to 4 digits, which seems WAY out of line with what I see in the current VE table.
How can these numbers be so crazy off?
The more I learn about this stuff, the more questions I have.
Thank you for your time,
Elm

21776

[joecar]

Hi Elm,

Apply Calc.VET changes from an actual driving session.


RAFIG usually goes better after the VE/MAF are corrected... however, you can do RAFIG before VE/MAF just to get a feel for it.

Let me take a closer look at you VET log, can you post screenshots to point me to where the data looks wrong.

Do you have the VE table units set to g*K/kPa (go Edit->Properties->Display and under Volumetric Efficiency Units see what it says).

[ezobens]

Joe,
I appreciate your patience with my dumb questions.
I just want to make sure I understand what I am doing so I can learn from it.

Your comment to apply Calc.VET from an "actual driving session" leads me to believe that I should not apply the current log I have since the car never physically moved.
I have attached a screen shot of the bizarre numbers my 'running in place' log provided.
For total transparency, I did not clear the trims in the scantool before pulling the log (totally forgot)-
Not sure what impact that would have on my data?

I also attached screen shots of the VE table in my current tune showing the properties-
This stuff is what trips me up- The table clearly shows 'MAP kPA' but the properties shows otherwise.
When I change it to g*K/kPa, the display remains the same. How does one know when these need to be changed and to what unit of measure?

Looks like I am in a holding pattern with the Calc.VET for now until the weather becomes good enough to physically take the car out and get some 'real' logs.
In the meantime, I can play with RAFIG so I can at least get a feel for it.
Please let me know if there is anything you (or I) need to look at in the meantime.
As always, thank you for your time and patience,
Elm

21777
21778

[joecar]

Joe,
I appreciate your patience with my dumb questions.
I just want to make sure I understand what I am doing so I can learn from it.

No worries.



Your comment to apply Calc.VET from an "actual driving session" leads me to believe that I should not apply the current log I have since the car never physically moved.
I have attached a screen shot of the bizarre numbers my 'running in place' log provided.

Engine needs to pull a load to get good tuning data.



For total transparency, I did not clear the trims in the scantool before pulling the log (totally forgot)-
Not sure what impact that would have on my data?

Residual trims will affect your next few minutes (until the ECM learns new trims)...
but, for LS1B, when you do a flash, the trims get cleared (let me verify this).



I also attached screen shots of the VE table in my current tune showing the properties-
This stuff is what trips me up- The table clearly shows 'MAP kPA' but the properties shows otherwise.
When I change it to g*K/kPa, the display remains the same. How does one know when these need to be changed and to what unit of measure?

Looks like I am in a holding pattern with the Calc.VET for now until the weather becomes good enough to physically take the car out and get some 'real' logs.
In the meantime, I can play with RAFIG so I can at least get a feel for it.
Please let me know if there is anything you (or I) need to look at in the meantime.
As always, thank you for your time and patience,
Elm

21777
21778

[joecar]

...

I also attached screen shots of the VE table in my current tune showing the properties-
This stuff is what trips me up- The table clearly shows 'MAP kPA' but the properties shows otherwise.
When I change it to g*K/kPa, the display remains the same. How does one know when these need to be changed and to what unit of measure?
...
21777
21778

In VE_DIsplay.pdf, look at upper right, look at Units:, set this to g*K/kPa
( Edit->Properties->Display and under Volumetric Efficiency Units ).
21783


In CALC.VET_Table.pdf, look at upper left, you see the button n is clicked (n means number of hits)...
click the button x-bar (x-bar means each cell has the average value of all the hits in that cell).
21784

[ezobens]

:bangin: I'll eventually get the hang of this!
As is often the case, the answer is right in front of me.
Thank you for pointing out what should have been the obvious. :thumb_yello:

I've attached my revised screen shots and the numbers look MUCH better now! lol
I will play with the RAFIG this weekend and I'll have to wait to do a 'real' Calc.VET when weather permits.
Thank you again and I'll chime back in when I have some more useful data.
Elm

21785

[ezobens]

I've had a productive weekend playing with the RAFIG process and getting my idle dialed-in.
While I still have some work to do, it is MUCH better than just a few days ago-
I can even blip the throttle now without fear of the engine stalling (once I get into operating range).
Cold start from 40 degrees F is still a little choppy but I think I'll have it licked soon.

I did have several questions on the process and some other observations:

My FIRST TPI throttle body (mono blade) has no 'bypass' hole in the throttle blade-
The OEM TPI and LT1 throttle bodies do have a .150" bypass hole (not in the blade however).
I'm running into a situation where I have to crack the throttle open a fair amount to keep my 1100 RPM idle fairly smooth but I believe I'm out of adjustment from a TPS perspective. I've bent brackets and slotted the holes as far as I can but I still can't seem to get it in the 'acceptable' range for the PCM.
What is the maximum voltage at the TPS I can have and still zero out the TPS %?
Seems if I go any more than 0.6V or so, I can no longer reset the TPS % to zero.
It appears my only other option is to drill a hole in the throttle blade so I can get the TPS within range-
As it sits right now, the lowest I can get the IAC counts at a warm idle is about 60-65.
Thoughts?

Also, I am running a 160 degree thermostat in this motor and I question if this may be contributing to my tuning challenges.
Would you recommend I go to a 180 thermostat or is this a non-issue? The 409 SBC in the C3 Corvette makes for a hot engine compartment so I've been running the 160 thermostat since the carburetor days.

RAFIG logging-
The doc states to run a histogram and then get the average for each temperature slice that corresponds to the B4307 table.
I stumbled across a RAFIG MAP that already exists in EFI Live (attached), is there any reason why I can't just use that to get the averages vs the histogram? The MAP seems to be a much cleaner solution (if it does what I need it to do).

Finally, just trying to get a sanity check on my WB O2 readings-
When I start the car from cold (40 F), the logs indicate a lean condition (17 -19) but the exhaust smells pretty rich.
Once it warms up and is in it's normal range, the AFR numbers seem to level out more in the 14 - 15 range and the exhaust isn't nearly as rich.
Is this due to my 110 LSA, high-ish overlap (57 degrees @ .006) cam? Is there anything I need to be concerned about and/or a way to lean it out a bit when it's cold so my eyes aren't burning?
I've attached my latest log file from today in case you wanted to take a peek.

Any insight or advice on the above points would be most appreciated.
Thank you again for your time,
Elm

21786
21787

[ezobens]

No thoughts on any of the above or am I putting the cart before the horse since I have yet to complete CALC.VET?
Thank you,
Elm

[joecar]

I'm still catching up...

[ezobens]

No worries.
With the weather the way it is up this way, I've got nothing but time. :cheers:
Elm

[joecar]

Sorry, I have been sick the last 3 days...

[joecar]

...

I did have several questions on the process and some other observations:

My FIRST TPI throttle body (mono blade) has no 'bypass' hole in the throttle blade-
The OEM TPI and LT1 throttle bodies do have a .150" bypass hole (not in the blade however).
I'm running into a situation where I have to crack the throttle open a fair amount to keep my 1100 RPM idle fairly smooth but I believe I'm out of adjustment from a TPS perspective. I've bent brackets and slotted the holes as far as I can but I still can't seem to get it in the 'acceptable' range for the PCM.
What is the maximum voltage at the TPS I can have and still zero out the TPS %?
Seems if I go any more than 0.6V or so, I can no longer reset the TPS % to zero.
It appears my only other option is to drill a hole in the throttle blade so I can get the TPS within range-
As it sits right now, the lowest I can get the IAC counts at a warm idle is about 60-65.
Thoughts?
I don't remember the voltage, but it looks like you have hit it at 0.6V.
If you drill a hole, make it smaller than you think, take a log and analyse; then increase the diameter if necessary, but go cautiously.




Also, I am running a 160 degree thermostat in this motor and I question if this may be contributing to my tuning challenges.
Would you recommend I go to a 180 thermostat or is this a non-issue? The 409 SBC in the C3 Corvette makes for a hot engine compartment so I've been running the 160 thermostat since the carburetor days.

In your logs, what temperature do you see...? Is it sufficient for CL mode to activate...?

Also, are there any other temperature-based tables in your tune that might be affected by running a lower temperature...?

Typically LSx's like 180-190*F and SBC's like 160-170*F (or so).



RAFIG logging-
The doc states to run a histogram and then get the average for each temperature slice that corresponds to the B4307 table.
I stumbled across a RAFIG MAP that already exists in EFI Live (attached), is there any reason why I can't just use that to get the averages vs the histogram? The MAP seems to be a much cleaner solution (if it does what I need it to do).

No reason not to.



Finally, just trying to get a sanity check on my WB O2 readings-
When I start the car from cold (40 F), the logs indicate a lean condition (17 -19) but the exhaust smells pretty rich.
Once it warms up and is in it's normal range, the AFR numbers seem to level out more in the 14 - 15 range and the exhaust isn't nearly as rich.
Is this due to my 110 LSA, high-ish overlap (57 degrees @ .006) cam? Is there anything I need to be concerned about and/or a way to lean it out a bit when it's cold so my eyes aren't burning?
I've attached my latest log file from today in case you wanted to take a peek.

Any unburnt fuel (meaning unburnt oxygen) registers lean on any O2 sensor (WB and NB)...
so yes, cam's overlap lets unburnt fuel pass into exhaust, and when engine is cold that does not ignite, so WB senses lean...
the usual trick is to keep this in mind when tuning VE/MAF tables, and to remove some air in the idle areas.



Any insight or advice on the above points would be most appreciated.
Thank you again for your time,
Elm

21786
21787
I'm still looking thru your log file.

[ezobens]

Thanks Joe!
I was thinking of starting with an 1/8" hole in the throttle blade and see if that gives me a more comfortable range to play with.
In my logs, the car tends to run below 170 at idle and the fan on- I can force it higher with the fan unplugged.
While I 'Think' the car is going into CL, how can I tell for certain?
As always, thank you again for your time.
Elm

[The Alchemist]

So another question regarding segments:
I have a customer who is putting an "old school" trans behind his LS1 in a kit car type thing.
I have his ECU here to do a vats delete and mafless pretune etc. The ECU contains an Auto 4L60E segment & tune in it.

What do I need to do in regard to the auto segment, does it need to be changed to a manual one ?

thanks,
Mike

[joecar]

Yes, swap the Trans segment and the Trans Diag segment to manual ones.