THROTTLE BODY IS CLOSING E39A Buick Verano T(urbo)

[Boost]

I have come to the point of finding the limitation of this mindbogglingly high performance 4 cylinder engine that GM made. (2.0 liter LHU Ecotec in my 2013 Buick Verano with 6T50 automatic transmission)

Before I acquired this car, I went hundreds of miles from dealer to dealer pretending to test drive them and plugging in EFILive to see if there was support. I pulled their files and sent them to EFILive.

Finally there was E39A support released and the trans. being an T76 similar to the Cruze which is very much supported, it was only a matter of time (in my mind) until my new special car I've worked hard for for 5 years would be fully tune-able by my favorite (and only) calibration software.

As I lived with the car and pushed it to it's limits, I've accomplished performance that has impressed and shocked many, and have always given due credit to EFILive. But now I have hit a hard limit and there is nothing I can do about it.

I have installed a full intake and exhaust and without EFILive the car would not even run or idle. I have used a COMPLETELY different Regal MAF, and had to modify the ECM wiring. The car runs great and very, very hard, but as I am producing 31 psi boost on the stock turbo (I know) and 361 lb-ft torque on the stock trans. (which is rated at 258 - and acts like it), I need MORE control.

The throttle body is shutting to 40% during full acceleration due to torque reduction request from the TCM and bringing the tire shredding, turbo screaming party to a screeching halt.

This all really makes me sick, so I am posting my logs and findings in hopes that someone can chime in and eventually help will arrive so I can beat rival cars that this engine laughs at in a Cobalt SS (LNF, tuned by competing software).

[Boost]

Just to clarify, I carefully checked my theories before posting what I think is going on. For instance, I found it hard to believe that the car is actually running 30 psi boost on the stock K04. (then again the puny Honeywell on the Cruze makes mid 20s no problem). Obviously this is way too much boost and there is no benefit to abusing everything this way when more power can probably be made with 24 psi. But still I wanted to think that the PID called "Turbocharger Boost Vacuum Pressure" is a closer reflection of actual boost (more realistic #s). I still don't know what this reading is, but I unplugged the pressure sensor right before the throttle body, and the PID "Turbocharger Boost Pressure" went dead. So we know that this PID is what is going into the throttle body. Now I have spiked this to over 46..... just check the logs.

So that leads me to think that the surging and low power I am experiencing is most definitely compressor surge due to the astronomical boost pressures. It would make sense but here is the problem. If I shift the car manually and let off the throttle between the gears, it never surges and happily pulls and holds 30 psi. Also, compressor surge continues when it happens as long as you stay on the throttle. What I am having is only on gear changes (and we know the TCM closes the throttle then) as well as mid-pull it leaks and farts the pressure out as it pleases and the car falls on it's face completely.

I finally got around to logging actual throttle plate position and guess what? Every time the car acts like crap, the throttle closes when I don't want it to. When it want to open, the car rips the tires of in 3rd gear and lifts up the front end like a Supra. I have dialed in the wastegate tables to hold over 25 psi at all times from a very low RPM all the way to redline.

Except for the throttle bullshit.

[Boost]

I wonder if the computer could be fooled into thinking that it's making less torque than it is? Perhaps with the torque modeling table? I imagine about everything would need re-scaling after that.

[cindy@efilive]

Hi Roland,

We have a bunch of T76 unsupported Os's to map. The issue as always is time. It's a priority for us, but unfortunately there are a number of higher priorities before Ross gets to it.

Can you please email me you read file, and I'll check if it's closely aligned to one we already support. If it is we may be able to speed up the process.

Cheers
Cindy

[Boost]

Hi Roland,

We have a bunch of T76 unsupported Os's to map. The issue as always is time. It's a priority for us, but unfortunately there are a number of higher priorities before Ross gets to it.

Can you please email me you read file, and I'll check if it's closely aligned to one we already support. If it is we may be able to speed up the process.

Cheers
Cindy

Thank you so much Cindy and crew! Attached is the file, I can also e-mail it to you if needed. I completely understand but I am just freaking out because I don't like any of the alternative solutions to this...

If we can even just turn off the transmission's torque reduction request for now, I would be happy with that.

[Boost]

Hilarious that I have to set the power to stock to keep the throttle from snapping shut:


http://youtu.be/y3CABAPYBEc

[Sweet35th]

Boost, keep me in the loop on this if you can? Even with my manual trans GS file (the same one I sent you a while ago) there are several torque reduction perameters missing. With absolutely no tables pertaining to anything of the sort.

[Boost]

I have already figured out what else is closing it. But there is no control over it like you said.

[EagleMark]

If we can even just turn off the transmission's torque reduction request for now, I would be happy with that.Bet the tranny would not be happy for long? :help:

But I can see upgrades there in your future when this is worked out! This is going to be an incredible tuner car with this taken care of. Your results are amazing as what's left on the table here...

[Boost]

Bet the tranny would not be happy for long? :help:

But I can see upgrades there in your future when this is worked out! This is going to be an incredible tuner car with this taken care of. Your results are amazing as what's left on the table here...

Thank you very much for saying so sir. I would really like to know where / how I can upgrade the 6T50 because I would like to keep this car. It has behaved very well so far, but I suspect that is partially due to the software protection. I have more trust in GM trannies than most, if they are treated with reason and mainainted (if / when needed) they can last. My Cruze has no issues with 35k miles on 23 psi and 250 torque. And I have countless customers running 500 hp tunes on stock Allisons. But there is a limit to everything and I am quite good at reaching it...

[turbo_bu]

Boost,

I've kinda followed along with your development of the Turbo Buick and appreciate all the information that you have shared. Since you have pretty much zeroed in that the throttle closing is a form of protection which is most likely due to the predicted torque value ..... about the only thing I can offer up is what some of the old hacks used to have to do.

For the old LT1's (opti spark, not DI engines), we didn't have any COS's or any 2 bar, 3 bar stuff to play with. One of the work-arounds was to 1/2 all the tables so that you could use a 2 bar MAP (there is more to it, but that's the jist of it). One of the other things that you had to do was divide the displacement of the engine by 2. My guess is that if you went through all of this (there are quite a few tables that you would have to play), the "predicted engine output" should also go down. With the ECM's (ECM and TCM) seeing the lower predicted torque .... that hopefully should limit the amount of throttle closing you are getting.

[Boost]

Boost,

I've kinda followed along with your development of the Turbo Buick and appreciate all the information that you have shared. Since you have pretty much zeroed in that the throttle closing is a form of protection which is most likely due to the predicted torque value ..... about the only thing I can offer up is what some of the old hacks used to have to do.

For the old LT1's (opti spark, not DI engines), we didn't have any COS's or any 2 bar, 3 bar stuff to play with. One of the work-arounds was to 1/2 all the tables so that you could use a 2 bar MAP (there is more to it, but that's the jist of it). One of the other things that you had to do was divide the displacement of the engine by 2. My guess is that if you went through all of this (there are quite a few tables that you would have to play), the "predicted engine output" should also go down. With the ECM's (ECM and TCM) seeing the lower predicted torque .... that hopefully should limit the amount of throttle closing you are getting.

Thanks a lot turbo_bu! Actually, my recent findings indicate that the throttle closes for two different "symptoms", though it may all boil down to the same culprit anyway. To be quiet frank. I am VERY frustrated with this. I can't get anywhere. I am well aware of who else are tuning and racing these and also whether they have overcome this hurdle and what means they used, or if they haven't and their results are mediocre. I know there are several silent followers, but I just want to race and WIN and need help.

That being said the biggest "closer" of the throttle to 40% and keeping it there when it's least desirable is DESIRED BOOST - or rather, the difference between it and ACTUAL BOOST. I have produced a specific data log on purpose to show this and will post it sometime tonight. I am still producing 320 lb-ft torque with the "throat pinched" and the car wins street races but the whole thing is pointless and quite pathetic.

I have tried lowering the boost to match desired, and this is worthless as it wants 15 psi and that is not enough for even 300 wheel horsepower - the car runs no harder than stock and will never hit 8s, despite the smooth pull with no throttle closing whatsoever.

I have also tried somehow making DESIRED BOOST higher, this would allow 26++ psi with the throttle open an produce 350 wheel horsepower and run mid 8s. It is not possible for me to control this. It moves up and down as it pleases and routinely drops like a brick from 43 PSI (including baro) to 30 PSI, within a couple of RPM (!!) and shutting down the race.

As I understand from the description P.I.D. control is only during closed loop, I still tried it and all it does in any direction is create ghost cams and stalling / backfiring.

I am stuck in between and what makes it terrible is the tease of when it does open up for a few seconds it wants to scrape the rear bumper and rip the tires off the wheels.

Perhaps a huge turbo that can live at 14-15 psi or external software can turn this train wreck around... sucks a metric f-ton. (in the words of a friend)

[ScarabEpic22]

Boost, remember what I said in my PM a month or so ago...same still applies Im afraid. Be a cheaper fix than pulling your hair out all the time.

[EagleMark]

Boost,

I've kinda followed along with your development of the Turbo Buick and appreciate all the information that you have shared. Since you have pretty much zeroed in that the throttle closing is a form of protection which is most likely due to the predicted torque value ..... about the only thing I can offer up is what some of the old hacks used to have to do.

For the old LT1's (opti spark, not DI engines), we didn't have any COS's or any 2 bar, 3 bar stuff to play with. One of the work-arounds was to 1/2 all the tables so that you could use a 2 bar MAP (there is more to it, but that's the jist of it). One of the other things that you had to do was divide the displacement of the engine by 2. My guess is that if you went through all of this (there are quite a few tables that you would have to play), the "predicted engine output" should also go down. With the ECM's (ECM and TCM) seeing the lower predicted torque .... that hopefully should limit the amount of throttle closing you are getting.I remember these tricks and was the only way to accomplish boost with a PCM/OS that was never designed for boost.

But there's always been limitations on the LT1 PCM even without boost and just engine mods like cam, or even long tube headers with parameters missing that caused the dreaded "Split BLMs!" along with many others. And we found tricks to tune around them.

Here it is 2014 and we've finally cracked them and changed LT1 tuning for modified engines and transplants! (Still no boost)

So it can be done properly and Boost has spent major amounts of time modding a basically stock 2013 engine to extremes with what's left on the table. It's time for EFI Live to step up and find this limitation in tuning and with it being a new MY there's still a chance they will find the time to do so. This vehicle is soon to become a popular tuner car for a long time! :grd:

[Boost]

Boost, remember what I said in my PM a month or so ago...same still applies Im afraid. Be a cheaper fix than pulling your hair out all the time.

Thank you Erik! I know and I seriously was ready to do anything it takes, and definitely still may go that route. Whatever it takes. However, since I discovered that the actual "higher than stock torque at a specific RPM while boost is still low" was closing the throttle only a small amount and not as often as the huge snapping shut 2-3-4 times per gear as soon as Desired Boost drops and Actual Boost overshoots it. This encouraged me to work within EFILive to find out how I can bring this completely under control before I complain about the transmission. However, I have tried every single setting and strategy and there are simply things missing. If anyone EVER is to get a 2011-14 Regal T, Regal GS, or Verano T running close to right, we must ask and patiently wait for more tables to control the Throttle Tragedy.

I know from correspondence with one of the only other guys on the planet who is racing a Verano T and using a competitor's product (and also is keeping tabs on this thread) that they had serious problems with both the automatic transmission holding back torque as well as the throttle shutting on the dyno. However the software's ability was revisited and the problem solved.

I love EFILive so much that I would rather get it running as good and as precisely dialed in as possible with what's available. But I really really hope that we can work something out, I'd be willing to submit as many data logs as possible and thrash the car until the transmission is soup and the tires are goo.

[Boost]

EagleMark, I really appreciate what you are saying! I do however realize that despite my very good relationship and friendship with EFILive, the car may simply not be a priority due to it's rareness and tons of other way bigger projects. I am in communication with Opel racers from Russia (who are also following this) and not many worldwide are tuning the LHU well with EFILive. The Holden / Vauxhall / Opel / ect versions of the Astra J OPC or whatnot are hot tuner cars but still are rare and underdogs to the Ford and VAG crowd. I think the Saab also has an LHU.

The LNF was a big hit with the HPT crowd and I don't mind that EFIlive stayed away. The new platforms are much more sophisticated and elegant. And the LTG tuning is going well, I am kicking serious ass tuning ATSs and have some dreams / aspirations about a possible future Malibu T.

But I will be owning and racing this for a while. So thank you for your kindness and support, but all I can do is try and whine, and try not to tick off my dear friends too much.

I also FULLY realize that I am not exactly God's gift to the tuning world and am probably overlooking a whole bunch of basics, but I am working on it!!!

[Boost]

I have produced a specific data log on purpose to show this and will post it sometime tonight.

The first log file attached named LOKURA is purposely overboosted and barely driveable. It was done to show and exaggerate what is occuring.

The second log (Tune J) is one of my fastest dailys. It shuts the throttle quite nicely, and barely makes 300 torque. But if I add boost it shuts the throttle more and goes slower, and if I lower boost it shuts the throttle less and goes slower. Thanks for looking! (Calling Brian and Rhino!!!)

[turbo_bu]

Boost,

Thanks for sharing all of your hard work. I hate to beat on the band-aid methods too much since they shouldn't be needed, but since it sounds like your dealing with a boost controller fighting you. Can you limit the boost signal going into the ECM? Basically preventing the MAP sensor from showing anything larger than say 15 psi? I haven't looked at the output of the MAP sensor, but my hunch would be to modify the resistance so that it never showed anything that was higher than ~15 psi.

[GMPX]

It's time for EFI Live to step up and find this limitation in tuning
Time, ah, time being the enemy here :Eyecrazy:
From what I understand the cars running the E39 & E78 seem to be ok, it's when they went to the E39A we've struck the boost issues? It might also be that they've put more tables in the 2013+ software, I don't know, I honestly haven't spent hours and hours on the these ECM's in the last 6 months or so and because they are relatively new GM are having a field day with release changes.


I know from correspondence with one of the only other guys on the planet who is racing a Verano T and using a competitor's product (and also is keeping tabs on this thread) that they had serious problems with both the automatic transmission holding back torque as well as the throttle shutting on the dyno. However the software's ability was revisited and the problem solved.
Guys I don't like to beat about the bush (that might be a local expression!), I don't want to tell anyone to use other tuning software, but you can only wait so long right? Don't be under the illusion that EFILive is working on this issue 100% of the time, we aren't, our project backlog is huge and we have new projects on the horizon we need to keep the ball rolling on, but at the same time we are trying to be mindful of these on going problems.


The car may simply not be a priority due to it's rareness and tons of other way bigger projects.
That is something we need to balance out and will never keep everyone happy.


But I will be owning and racing this for a while. So thank you for your kindness and support, but all I can do is try and whine, and try not to tick off my dear friends too much.
Never Roland, you are handling yourself very well :wavetowel2:

[Boost]

Thanks for saying so Ross, we are on the same page! Just a note - the ATS 2.0T also has an E39A and I have zero issues with throttle or boost when tuning those. Since I have access to their T43s, I can see that the trans. is permitting up to around 400 lb-ft (surely not the case with my 258 lb-ft rated unit) and can also turn off various TM settings from there.

It may be that since they went with a Mitsu turbo and it's newer they found better ways to manage boost also there. I am particularly impressed with the low RPM initial spool with the Caddy. The LHU as we know sleeps until 3k, then fury.

With patience and continued experimentation we will get there - if I have to infuse another product and just use it as a whore for the tranny - so be it. :)

I surely hope though that at least 1-2 additional power controls are released for these with each major update... ;)

You guys rock (and Stock is Cock! <<< popular TORQUE SOUTH sticker from 2006 era)

;)

[EagleMark]

Time, ah, time being the enemy here :Eyecrazy:
It's a tough job being Top Dog in the tuning software business! Keep it up! :exactly:

Don't want to see any of this: :wavetowel2:

:cool:


EagleMark, I really appreciate what you are saying! I do however realize that despite my very good relationship and friendship with EFILive, the car may simply not be a priority due to it's rareness and tons of other way bigger projects.

But I will be owning and racing this for a while. So thank you for your kindness and support, but all I can do is try and whine, and try not to tick off my dear friends too much.
!Sometimes they may take me wrong as trying to tick them off... but that is far from truth and my motive. I'm taking my time to give them a push when I suggest these things and should always be taken in a positive manner! Or I wouldn't waste my time.

Although we do disagree about updates on older vehicles? EFI Live thinks they are to old, dead and gone, where I see them popping up all the time more and more. Rarely do I get an original owner of a new car that wants it messed with, yes there are a few. But second owners, third owners etc... 10 and 20 year old they keep coming! Whole vehicles and engine transplants to classic cars. There are some parts of the country like the winter salt the roads belt that cars just don't last that long. But others where a vehicle is cared for can look like new 10-20 years old which may have something to do with it?

For statistics? Last year I did over 50 1987-95 OBDI TBI engines, second in line was 96-00 Vortec engines, then LS based engines.

[joecar]

There's someone transplanting an LS1 into a Prius (see LS1tech.com)...

lol, if you want to drag race, this may actually be a viable option (need some funds, parts, time, fabrication), you can make it look sleeper, it will be dead simple to tune, and you will really rip ET's/TS's.

[Boost]

There's someone transplanting an LS1 into a Prius (see LS1tech.com)...

lol, if you want to drag race, this may actually be a viable option (need some funds, parts, time, fabrication), you can make it look sleeper, it will be dead simple to tune, and you will really rip ET's/TS's.

Good one Joe :)

Might be easier to do than keeping my car's throttle open during WOT... :(

[turbo_bu]

Random idea - not sure if the E39A has (or EFILive have mapped) the MAP sensor parameters. What I am referring too are the scale / offset values that you would change in an LS1B PCM when changing over to a 2 bar or 3 bar MAP sensor. If so, then you could potentially reduce the MAP signal without actually having to replace it. This might "limit" the actual boost signal that the ECM is seeing.

[Boost]

Will try that! Wondering about effect on fueling though.

[EagleMark]

Might be easier to do than keeping my car's throttle open during WOT... :(You've tried all sorts of tricks and found it is torque management reducing TPS position. How does the ECM/TCM calculate this? If it has something to do with MAP signal the above may work... but who knows what ill effects it would have.

For another trick a string tied to throttle blades and give it a yank during WOT runs? :anitoof: Or even some wiring with voltage to over ride what it's being told to do? Heck it might work for now and see what kind of times that thing would really do... can you see the looks on faces of people watching you closely with this project when you knock another second off ET? :drool:

[Boost]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrNYZCJDSww

[turbo_bu]

Will try that! Wondering about effect on fueling though.


Yes, fuel and or spark. I haven't looked at an E39A tune, but was hoping that since pretty much everything is based of MAF, all the fueling and spark would still be looking for an air flow value (MAF), while the boost controller was still watching MAP.

[Boost]

Well, now the ATS I am tuning is doing this as well since I have gained a lot of power with it. Now I know for a fact that those who have successfully tuned the ATS have encountered this issue and are keeping silent. This is not a turbo A/R combination or tuning secret. Desired boost fluctuates and is too low causing any respectable amount of boost to overshoot the target and immediately shut the throttle. Somebody please help. I need to figure this out. I was humiliated at PBIR running a 14.3 @ 96 mph. I JUST need the throttle open 84% at 24 psi and I will figure out all the rest. Please, if you know how to raise Desired Boost - help. I have maxed out every limiter and tried every table in engine and tranny. Even when the settings that would obviously raise Desired Boost and do are adjusted, it still drops like a rock.It fluctuates and only wants about 15 psi or less when the car is desperate for 25. Is it in the P.I.D controller? Is it in the Map / Baro ratio or Delta pressure change? I have tried and small moves but after literally 200 re-flashed nothing (except for low boost that makes no power) keeps the throttle open on either of these cars. There is no knock and I have maxed out the S/C airflow table even. The trans. torque settings are maxed out in the ATS's T43. wtf??

[Boost]

Well, now the ATS I am tuning is doing this as well since I have gained a lot of power with it. Now I know for a fact that those who have successfully tuned the ATS have encountered this issue and are keeping silent. This is not a turbo A/R combination or tuning secret. Desired boost fluctuates and is too low causing any respectable amount of boost to overshoot the target and immediately shut the throttle. Somebody please help. I need to figure this out. I was humiliated at PBIR running a 14.3 @ 96 mph. I JUST need the throttle open 84% at 24 psi and I will figure out all the rest. Please, if you know how to raise Desired Boost - help. I have maxed out every limiter and tried every table in engine and tranny. Even when the settings that would obviously raise Desired Boost and do are adjusted, it still drops like a rock.It fluctuates and only wants about 15 psi or less when the car is desperate for 25. Is it in the P.I.D controller? Is it in the Map / Baro ratio or Delta pressure change? I have tried and small moves but after literally 200 re-flashed nothing (except for low boost that makes no power) keeps the throttle open on either of these cars. There is no knock and I have maxed out the S/C airflow table even. The trans. torque settings are maxed out in the ATS's T43. wtf??

Here is a screenshot and a log of the ATS "doing it" last night. Somebody pleeeaase SOS (Save Our Slips)

[Boost]

And here is the timeslip and the actual log of the run for the Veranslow:

I am providing everything I possibly can to get some help here.

[Michael167]

I'm the owner of the ATS Boost has been tuning, and damn it can move like a bat out of hell (a friend's words) but this has literally crippled it. I don't have much to input as I am very inexperienced but I'd just like to say any info would be greatly appreciated!

[Sweet35th]

Im going to add this again. There are more issues than just what Boost is describing.. I have a 13 E39a with a 6spd manual trans, and there is MASSIVE torque reduction in 1st gear and at low speeds that I can not find a single item in the software to change that.... Anything 5mph and below, there is almost no torque allowed. Then through first gear a huge reduction is in place. Next time on the dyno I will do a pull in 1st gear (if I can get the tires to stick) and then "trick" it into thinking it is in 3rd gear and do a pull just to get a measure differance. This torque limit with the manual at least seems to be based on vehicle speed, which I am sure the pcm is using vehicle speed to calculate what manual gear it is in.. Whats also strange is the GS has a "GS" mode button which greatly increases throttle response and boost response time. However the only separate mode tables in the calibration are the torque response tables. Which don't seem to be related to what ever "mode" selected at all.

[Boost]

Im going to add this again. There are more issues than just what Boost is describing.. I have a 13 E39a with a 6spd manual trans, and there is MASSIVE torque reduction in 1st gear and at low speeds that I can not find a single item in the software to change that.... Anything 5mph and below, there is almost no torque allowed. Then through first gear a huge reduction is in place. Next time on the dyno I will do a pull in 1st gear (if I can get the tires to stick) and then "trick" it into thinking it is in 3rd gear and do a pull just to get a measure differance. This torque limit with the manual at least seems to be based on vehicle speed, which I am sure the pcm is using vehicle speed to calculate what manual gear it is in.. Whats also strange is the GS has a "GS" mode button which greatly increases throttle response and boost response time. However the only separate mode tables in the calibration are the torque response tables. Which don't seem to be related to what ever "mode" selected at all.

I am sorry to hear that you are still having trouble but glad that we have another voice to plead for support. Have you pinpointed the means of reduction? Is it the THROTTLE?? I would be glad to have another look at your file to see if you missed anything. I have figured it all out except the throttle closing (again - the moment when actual boost becomes higher than the crazy ass desired). But that ruins everything.

[cindy@efilive]

I am sorry to hear that you are still having trouble but glad that we have another voice to plead for support. Have you pinpointed the means of reduction? Is it the THROTTLE?? I would be glad to have another look at your file to see if you missed anything. I have figured it all out except the throttle closing (again - the moment when actual boost becomes higher than the crazy ass desired). But that ruins everything.

Roland, one voice, 2 voices or even 20 voices isn't going to change our development plans in the immediate short term. Development for the first quarter is completely allocated, and I'm sorry to say it doesn't include E39.

Cheers
Cindy

[Michael167]

What about 300! Just kidding Cindy, we understand that and even though its not what's best in our interests its what is best for the program as a whole that matters. I'm just wondering that if there are some 400, 450, even 500 crank hp 2.0 turbo ATS on the road then maybe they ran into the same problem and must have over come it right? By the way I've really enjoyed working with Roland and using efilive. I'm looking forward to purchasing my own set up to continue playing with it well after Roland is sick of me :grin:

[Boost]

Haha, by all means I encourage you to pick up your own system - it's by far the best tool I've ever invested in. And Cindy thanks for the heads up, I completely understand. Still in a strange way I feel better that I am not the only one that wishes this could be explored. I have already dipped my feet in to the "other water" and looks like I'll be swimming soon. Only because there is a good possibility I can help these cars a little more that way. In time I am sure we will catch up and I can come back to my first love LOL.

I still want to know how those few allegedly EFILive exlusive cars that are allegedly out there running good have fared with this issue. I really wish Brian would comment anything on this. If nothing more, something along the lines of "yes, it's doable with the current standard available parameters but you'll never figure it out".

I have already come a long way standing by myself. I made the boost and power, I pinpointed the limitation, I realized it's not in the tranny, and I figured out exactly what it was.

All I need is either to override boost control via airflow, or raise Desired Boost. Or both. Just a hint would go a long way to point us crawling in a direction. If anyone even knows...

[Boost]

If anyone even knows...

So I am talking with people literally all over the world about this. Not to prove that I am not stupid, I am just desperate for a solution for everyone involved. Guess what? I thought this was maybe an easy fix and I am doing it wrong... turns out:

My sources say absolutely no one in Europe has figured this out. The best stage tunes from Germany are all mild gains limited to below serious throttle closure.

What's more, people in South and Central America that are turning to our shores for help are getting tunes sent from here that are closing the throttle!

I say we join forces and cooperate, this is a tiny tiny community. If I am the first one to find a solution, I won't be a dick!

[Boost]

I tried disconnecting the boost sensor this morning so it reads 0 at all times. The car drove but with no boost at all. At this point I would almost prefer that if would blindly make boost and blow up.

[Sweet35th]

I am sorry to hear that you are still having trouble but glad that we have another voice to plead for support. Have you pinpointed the means of reduction? Is it the THROTTLE?? I would be glad to have another look at your file to see if you missed anything. I have figured it all out except the throttle closing (again - the moment when actual boost becomes higher than the crazy ass desired). But that ruins everything.

Ill send you what I have Boost. If tried several things. Got it to the point where it came into boost so fast that it let loose a large SNAP as the fuel wasn't there yet. Pretty much backed it way off at that point till I got it on the dyno to do it right. But too lazy to work on my own stuff LOL. But ill send you the "mild" file.

[Boost]

If I am the first one to find a solution, I won't be a dick!

I lied! :hihi: Problem is solved TEMPORARILY (but completely). I will post details after further thorough testing. So far, the throttle DOES NOT CLOSE at all on a WOT run from 0-78 MPH. It pulls hard the entire time, including top end which is new. Intake temps are normal. Boost is 25 PSI. There is no significant knock. Mixture is pig rich.In was mostly in the tune. PM me if you must know sooner, no one cares about this anyway.

P.S. – Neener neener neeeeeener!

[Michael167]

LMAO :laugh: I cant breath after reading that neener neener neeeeeener

Awesome Roland

[Sweet35th]

I lied! :hihi: Problem is solved TEMPORARILY (but completely). I will post details after further thorough testing. So far, the throttle DOES NOT CLOSE at all on a WOT run from 0-60 MPH. It pulls hard the entire time, including top end which is new. Intake temps are normal. Boost is 25 PSI. There is no significant knock. Mixture is pig rich.In was mostly in the tune. PM me if you must know sooner, no one cares about this anyway.

P.S. – Neener neener neeeeeener!

Rock out man!!!!! Now take that car on a road trip up to Minnesota. Should be able to cut off some serious 1/4 ETs in our -10 degree weather.

[Boost]

Actually, as soon as I get to the LOCAL track I will be instantly redeemed. The car is pig rich and pretty low on power - still pulls much harder than ever before. High 8s and 13s are absolutely guaranteed. Also When I ran the 14.3 my 1/8 mile trap was only 74 instead of my usual 77++. And that was with the throttle shut the whole way.... LOL @ my future times

I deserve this

P.S. - I probably shouldn't be going 80 MPH in traffic on my lunch break with a donut spare on with a big nail in it when it's raining. But I sacrifice for the community of us 3-4 :laugh:

[joecar]

I lied! :hihi: Problem is solved TEMPORARILY (but completely). I will post details after further thorough testing. So far, the throttle DOES NOT CLOSE at all on a WOT run from 0-78 MPH. It pulls hard the entire time, including top end which is new. Intake temps are normal. Boost is 25 PSI. There is no significant knock. Mixture is pig rich.In was mostly in the tune. PM me if you must know sooner, no one cares about this anyway.

P.S. – Neener neener neeeeeener!I'm curious... I'm guessing it was several (not just one or two) of the sanity tables in combination...?

[GMPX]

I lied! :hihi: Problem is solved TEMPORARILY (but completely). I will post details after further thorough testing. So far, the throttle DOES NOT CLOSE at all on a WOT run from 0-78 MPH. It pulls hard the entire time, including top end which is new. Intake temps are normal. Boost is 25 PSI. There is no significant knock. Mixture is pig rich.In was mostly in the tune. PM me if you must know sooner, no one cares about this anyway.

P.S. – Neener neener neeeeeener!
Roland, I think others had found a fix already but weren't willing to disclose, after all they are running tuning business's you like. I feel your excitement though!

[Boost]

I'm curious... I'm guessing it was several (not just one or two) of the sanity tables in combination...?

Joe, I will PM you exactly what I did because you deserve it. You know ten-thousand times more than me anyway.



Roland, I think others had found a fix already but weren't willing to disclose, after all they are running tuning business's you like. I feel your excitement though!

Ross, I completely agree and understand. For this reason, I will also not disclose for the sake of their tuning businesses! Though I feel they really could have spared a few words to encourage or say what you just did. I will also PM you because I would like you to tell me if my solution is the same or different. If so, I don't need to know what it is.

For the rest of you, just know this:

After test driving another failed experiment of a tune, I noticed something. I though it was stupid and minor but I have learned to think logically because of tuning with EFILive for 8 years and also because of GM's Strategy Based Diagnosis for 10 years. So to eliminate the possibility I tried it. At first it did not work but with attention to detail I went a little further and to my surprise - FIXED!

Now there is a lot of re-tuning and compensation that is needed due to the fact that this car has never seen wide open throttle in all gears at all RPMs with 25-30 PSI boost before. It is pig pig rich as I am trying to (and succeeding) in protecting it from temps and pinging. It is to the point it has ruined my brand new synthetic oil change.

I could not believe it, it just kept getting faster every time I got into it. When I said it had low power I meant that it was only reading 300ish torque when it feels like 500 LOL. But it is much higher now.

So as I was leaving work my long time arch rival / nemesis with the boosted and tuned 2013 Ford Focus ST (2.0 D.I. turbo, modded and about 350 hp) was following me pulling out of the shop. He was aware that I fixed "the curse" and curious about it, but many times before I have told him that my car was running good right before he would mop the floor with me up and down the street. So I stepped on it a little and the car roasted the tires violently all the way through first gear. It has never done that before, not like that. It also boosts aggressively in Park / Neutral - unlike anything I've seen or heard before, especially with this car. He ended up behind me at a red light with a clear road ahead, and when the light turned green I floored it. Keep in mind he is a very competitive driver, used to have a low 11 second Evo and never ever wastes a chance to race me. He says he bought the car just to beat me, and has done so just about every chance and sometimes even when there wasn't much of a chance but anyways.

He clearly tries to follow me, change lanes and fly by as he always does. We pull away from the pack of cars as my car spins 1st and spins 2nd hard (usually does not, 2nd used to break loose only at higher RPM when boost kicks). By 3rd gear I had what seemed like 10 cars on him. He was definitely trying and we were both shocked at the outcome. My 3rd gear was a huge torque steer and my 4th gear a huge torque steer the other way (new). I pulled some more on him. At the next light he conceded and said my car is running extremely hard and stinks like raw fuel. He said it looked like it wanted to fall apart. I had the biggest grin on my face.

Shortly after the car decided to pop every single warning light but I did not care because every time I make stupid power on a completely revised tune some new codes need to be blocked or desensitized. But it was idling terrible and sounded like a blown engine. I kind of freaked but it was just limp mode and fixed now. I leaned it out some and it still runs super GREAT.

I will soon post a log. I DESERVE THIS. One comment to the silent ones: you may know, but have you / will you run my times???

16363

[joecar]

Another Ford bites the dust :cheers:

[EagleMark]

:jump:

[Boost]

Another Ford bites the dust :cheers:


:jump:

Thank you my friends!!!

We have arrived at the conclusion of this topic. There is complete victory over this obstacle. I'd like to thank Ross and all the others behind the scenes who contributed to helping me fix this disaster. I am attaching a log from today of taking my friend for a ride in my new 350 horsepower - 8 second 1/8 mile - 13 second 1/4 mile Verano. I also have logs available of just before the real fix, when I engineered around it and made near 400 horsepower before it became inconsistent and limped again. This chapter is finished, linking

BACK TO THE MAIN BUILD THREAD (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?22457-Torque-South-s-black-2013-BUICK-TURBO-project/page9)

[Jakes4321]

Gotta send boost a big thank you! I have been tuning my regal and noticed I couldnt get past 1.22 (17psi) with out the tb blade closing. Looked on my other guy software to see if air mass table was there and it was but not wanting to waste a license I contacted roland to see if he had table available. He made changes for me since I can't see table and viola the BOOST IS ON!!! I can't wait for the next update and hopefully this table will be available.

Thank you again Roland

[GMPX]

We added it in for Roland and sent the updates so he didn't need to use HPT, that table will be in a general release shortly.

[Boost]

Beat me to it Ross - yes thanks a lot to EFILive for working so hard on releasing the updates. Since I am seriously racing my car on a regular bases and also a tester we checked it it works and it sure does so it will be in the next release. Again I REALLY appreciate it, I instantly ran 8s the same weekend and super happy with my car and EFILive.

[EagleMark]

:cheers: To EFI Live! :cheers:

[joecar]

Cool :cheers:

[Jakes4321]

Yeah I didnt wanna use my hp since I already had a used efi on the car. Roland was a big help since I didnt wanna bug you guys just to get me one table.
Can't wait for for the next update release! Any chance on tcm??
Thanks again Roland and Efilive

[Boost]

Cindy has already mentioned in another thread that the TCM is a few months out. They are unable to focus on a single T76 flavor with so many bigger things pressing. Keep in mind though that MANY T76 are already supported.

Personally, I can live with it for now. The factory TCM cal does a decent job protecting the hardware and shifting also. Now that I am not handicapped in engine tuning I have lots to do. The only concern would be raising line pressure, I'd hate to burn up this puppy and have to pull the BODY off...

But there is the ugly solution for that now and also the hope that in 6 months or less we will have it with EFILive.

Thank Ross, he's the one that went out of his way - I just let the benefits trickle down. No biggie really

:cheers: (that's 8 beers on one page - ALCOHOLICS!)

[mackan]

Gotta send boost a big thank you! I have been tuning my regal and noticed I couldnt get past 1.22 (17psi) with out the tb blade closing. Looked on my other guy software to see if air mass table was there and it was but not wanting to waste a license I contacted roland to see if he had table available. He made changes for me since I can't see table and viola the BOOST IS ON!!! I can't wait for the next update and hopefully this table will be available.

Thank you again Roland

Sorry to bump this old thread but what table were limiting in your case?
Max boost?

[mackan]

Sorry to bump this old thread but what table were limiting in your case?
Max boost?
Updating and answering myself. Changing the torque coefficients helped out on my car where the automatic gearbox would limit max torque...

[Alexander]

Updating and answering myself. Changing the torque coefficients helped out on my car where the automatic gearbox would limit max torque...
Hello! What changes have you made? What coefficient limited the automatic transmission?

[mackan]

Hello! What changes have you made? What coefficient limited the automatic transmission?
Saabs auto trans, esp and XWD system sends out limiters on the canbus depending on driving conditions and firmware revision.
Some have a 350nm, some have 400nm.
To get past this you need to carefully adjust the torque coefficients for boost and ignition to "fool" the system into thinking the max torque number (in my case 400nm) is still the same but will allow for more boost. Very small numbers like 10% change gave drastic changes from 1,2-1,5bar so go easy when trying. I'd suggest changing 5% at a time.

Leave your max engine torque at the max allowable torque from TCM/ESP/ESP and adjust the coefficients.

[Alexander]

Saabs auto trans, esp and XWD system sends out limiters on the canbus depending on driving conditions and firmware revision.
Some have a 350nm, some have 400nm.
To get past this you need to carefully adjust the torque coefficients for boost and ignition to "fool" the system into thinking the max torque number (in my case 400nm) is still the same but will allow for more boost. Very small numbers like 10% change gave drastic changes from 1,2-1,5bar so go easy when trying. I'd suggest changing 5% at a time.

Leave your max engine torque at the max allowable torque from TCM/ESP/ESP and adjust the coefficients.


Thank you for such a quick response, I didn’t have the opportunity to answer, sorry.
I also face a torque limit of around 400nm.
If it’s not difficult for you, could you tell us in more detail which coefficients do you mean?
I tried to change the coefficients in the "Torque Model" Coefficient Table..., there were improvements and at the same time there were side effects, I could not find a middle ground.