4l80e upshifting when held in gear

[barbermi]

Hi all.
We are currently tuning a car with a 4l80e installed and when doing power runs the box will automatically shift from 1-2 and 2-3 when the shifter is holding gear. Is there a way to stop this happening? We cannot get the rpm we want before shifting manually. The box will shift automatically before 6000rpm.

Thanks in advance.

[Taz]

Post your tune.... will take a look tomorrow

[barbermi]

Here is the current tune.

[Taz]

Try this one ...



EDIT: Attachment removed - after OP downloaded it.

[barbermi]

Thanks Taz.
Ill give it a shot over the next few days. Ill do a compare anyway but what have you changed in the tune?

Cheers

[Taz]

Some changes you will be able to see, other changes are not visible.

[Wolfie]

OK, did you figure out how to keep the 4l80e from shifting on its own?
I thought that wasn't possible due to the design of the hardware.
I would love to keep my tranny in the gear the shifter tells it to...

[hog]

Money talks BS walks.

peace
Hog

[Taz]

OK, did you figure out how to keep the 4l80e from shifting on its own?
I thought that wasn't possible due to the design of the hardware.
I would love to keep my tranny in the gear the shifter tells it to...

The answer to your question is in this thread ....

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?23619-Upshift-to-2nd-gear-when-in-maual-1st-4L80E&p=201377&viewfull=1#post201377

[Wolfie]

Money talks BS walks.

peace
Hog

Gee, what a really helpful answer! Sure makes a lot of sense! NOT!

[hog]

Gee, what a really helpful answer! Sure makes a lot of sense! NOT!
Actually when people do this for a living, it does make sense. Read post #6 that Taz most graciously offered you. Pay a few dollars for the work others have done. Makes sense now, doesn't it Garth?

peace
Hog

[Wolfie]

Lessee there mr hOG.... Taz's reply was post 9, not 6. And your overintellegent comment was post 5, before Taz said anything.
Making sense or not... what kind of help does saying "Money talks BS walks." offer?
PM'ing Taz offered a solution, you did not.
It might interest you to know that that option was being asked for, for a long time now, from the EFILive folks.

[hog]

Lessee there mr hOG.... Taz's reply was post 9, not 6. And your overintellegent comment was post 5, before Taz said anything.
Making sense or not... what kind of help does saying "Money talks BS walks." offer?
PM'ing Taz offered a solution, you did not.
It might interest you to know that that option was being asked for, for a long time now, from the EFILive folks.


For clarity, post #9 of this thread contains a link to another post, in this OTHER thread in post #6 Taz offers up the solution.
I was referring to that thread, which I had read before your post came along.
My light hearted post Money talks and BS walks comment, refers to other efforts (thousands of hours of work) and results that which many people would easily take when it has clearly been explained that the people doing said work, would like to recoup SOME costs. That is all I meant. I knew that other members would be along and offer the help IF THEY WISHED.

The option you speak of, yes, has been desired for a while. AFAIK it isnt being included with any future release.

C'mon, yod didnt find my Waynes World "Garth" reference the least bit humorous?? I guess it's a dry humour. But you did make a comment "Making sense or not". Which comes across as though you dont care if things "make sense or not". Have a great day.

peace
Hog

[Wolfie]

Actually I just wasn't expecting that. - the money part.
I don't have an issue with paying someone for thier work.
When I was into this rather heavy back between 2007 and 2010, it wasn't as business oriented, it was much more of people helping people,
as in Weatherman Shawn and Jocar's work, and the "lean cruise" patch, and even most of the "stickies". Things have changed in the past few years here.
by the way, I never saw Waynes World...

[hog]

Actually I just wasn't expecting that. - the money part.
I don't have an issue with paying someone for thier work.
When I was into this rather heavy back between 2007 and 2010, it wasn't as business oriented, it was much more of people helping people,
as in Weatherman Shawn and Jocar's work, and the "lean cruise" patch, and even most of the "stickies". Things have changed in the past few years here.
by the way, I never saw Waynes World...
I agree that there has been some great work done here in the EFILive world, esp. by the guys you mentioned. I enjoy going back and reading those posts, some great stuff was accomplished.
I personally dont have the ability to make up some of those patches, there are some very intelligent people here. I was more involved in the revolution of using the 0411 PCM and calibration from 2001-2002 Express van and retrofitting them into the 1996-97 GM trucks/vans/SUV's which are only supported via Tunercats2, Jet DST and Westers Garage. The swap also extends into the 1998-2000 GMT 400 styled truck that had the GEN 1E Vortec 305/350 engines. EFILive does support the 1998-2000 blackbox PCM's, although the stock rev imit being set at 5600rpm defuel, and refuel at 5400rpm, no matter what numbers you enter, the PCM has a hard limit of 6000rpm. Kinda like the LT1 PCM's dont support revs over 7300rpm. The 512kb 0411 PCM has proven very versitile.
I also had some involvement in the CSFI (Central Sequential Fuel Injection) being retrofitted for a GM/Mercruiser MPFI intake/injection which allows you to use whatever fuel injectors you need. The stock CSFI intake uses a poppet fuel injection sysrtem that flows 23.1 lb/hr@63psi of railpressure. Obvioulsy this is limiting and GM actually developed a workaround that used Muletc 2 mini injectors at the ends of the spiders legs instead of poppet valves. The 1996-2002 CSFI injection is 100% the same between the L30 305 and the L31 350 and when used in California with their fuel blens caused major issues with eth poppet valves. This was one of teh reason GM developed the MPFI conversion spider(picturedbelow) GM had a campaign that swapped out the CSFI spider for the MPFI mini injector spider for all California registered 1996-2003 305/350 trucks/suv/vans under warranty. The MPFI spider was so effective, that GM used these new mini injector injection spiders that they included them in production of the 2004+ LU3/L35 4.3 V6 engines.
Stock CSFI spider top, MPFI spider with Multec 2 mini injectors bottom
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/spidercomparo.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/spidercomparo.jpg.html)

Here is a picture of all the injection spiders, fuel distribution block, fuel pressure regulator named "injector debris" causing turbulence and blocking airflow within the plenum.
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/injectordebris.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/injectordebris.jpg.html)

Stock CSFI intake left, Marine intake with EXTERNAL fuel rails right. The stock CSFI has an aluminum lower and plastic upper, whole the marine intake has an iron lower manifiold covered with an aluminum upper plenum. The iron lower does add weight. Any throttlebody, air intake kits or supercharger/turbo kits that is designed for the Vortec 305/350 engine will fit on the marine intake. It doesnt fit the bill ofr every single application, but it is a GM part, that solves a GM issue that only allows for about 390hp naturally aspirated or about 350hp-360hp in a supercharged application. It allows proper fueling instead of relying on extra injectors before the t-body and aftermarket boost referenced fueling controllers.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/marineL31intakesidebyswide.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/marineL31intakesidebyswide.jpg.html)

Here is a crossram L31 style marine intake appearing as it leaves the GM plant.
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/CASTINTAKE_250_161.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/CASTINTAKE_250_161.jpg.html)

Same intake with a flat lower plenum floor instead of the stock truck intake
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/insidemarineintake.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/insidemarineintake.jpg.html)

The 0411 and marine intake retrofit were the direct result of a bunch of guys sharing similar interests that get together and solve and issue. Just like the guys did here with all teh work on patches and CAX files. I do understand the feelings of comradery, esp. in the ECM tuning world. GM tries to heep us out of their ECM/PCM/TCM, then the code gets cracked and it becomes a cyclic course of events. With that comradery sometimes simply "cracking the code" and solving the problem is payment enough for certain efforts.
The joy of solving the Vortec trucks fueling shortcomings and swapping the blackbox PCM's from the 96-2000 GM trucks/SUV's was the challenge. Having many people saying that "it wouldnt work" or "no one is interested in working with old technology" or "just swap in a GEN 3/4 engine" only added to the feelings of accomplishment when we got it all together and running. For most, this is enough, but there are some projects that deserve or require monetary compensation. A lot has changed over the last decade, and I cant fault people for trying to put food on the table. People who do ECM tuning for a living sometimes do have to charge for their work. To a potential customer or simply a guy that comes to these forums asking for a tune or a work around(tune begging), they only see that the help usually comes fast and appears to be the result of "only a few clicks of the mouse". They dont see, or realize the amount of time and energy-work that has led to those "simple mouse clicks".
I'm not directing my "tune begging" comments at any one person, just reporting what I have and what most of you guys/gals here have seen.


(aside)
I'm surprised you never saw Wayne's World. That movie was the genesis of the phrase you stated.
Eg.-When looking at a car, and you feel that the window sticker price of $9000 is too high.
"I see that you are asking $9000 for this car, that's a GOOD price--NOT!!!!!"

If describing an unactractive female.
"That chick is hot................. NOT!" or if describing a very attractive female "
That girl is ugly..........NOT!-followed by WAyne/Garth rising out of their seats yelling "SHWING, SHWING".
(Saturday Night Live, sure has had some decent talent over the years. I remember trying to stay up to 11:30pm on Saturday niights to try and catch teh show. I would usually make it to the guest band's 1st song and then fall aspleep. Ahh, those were the days)


peace
Hog

[joecar]

lol, the throttle body o-ring/gasket looks same as LS1/LS6.

[Wolfie]

Works like it should have, or how I wanted it to... Thanks Taz!!!

[tdmkr496]

16324

I am having the same issues, along with soft shifts. Could someone look at it, it would be greatly appreciated.

[joecar]

16324

I am having the same issues, along with soft shifts. Could someone look at it, it would be greatly appreciated.Try this (attached).

You have a shift kit, and you're seeing soft shifts...? If you still get soft shifts with the attached file, then try setting the shift times tables to 0.2 seconds all across.

[EagleMark]

Actually I just wasn't expecting that. - the money part.
I don't have an issue with paying someone for thier work.
When I was into this rather heavy back between 2007 and 2010, it wasn't as business oriented, it was much more of people helping people,
as in Weatherman Shawn and Jocar's work, and the "lean cruise" patch, and even most of the "stickies". Things have changed in the past few years here.
by the way, I never saw Waynes World...Lot's of things have changed over the years and I think the main reason you see less serious involvement in the DIY end has happened slowly do to economy? You mention 2007, well that when it started a downward spiral. Face it all of the automotive hobbies were effected, lots of aftermarket support products and companies did not make it. All the guys who spent spare time reverse engineering and making patches etc... were now spending their time looking for work. There were a lot of tuners but they kept busy locally which was drying up and started the mail order craze... even more came on board with their hobby of tuning and started part time jobs to make ends meet and now there's just way more tuners then there is a demand so prices went ridiculas low and so did quality...

Back when OBDI and chip tuning was in it's infancy a lot of the really talented code guys went OBDII and the expense of software/hardware was not an affordable hobby project anymore, so the guys who still could afford performance cars, hot rods etc... just paid for a tune. The cost of LT1 Edit or newer LS1 edit was a commercial tool that not many could or would afford.

I remember back in the 90's? When EFI Live (some other name) was just a beta scantool and it started on the DIY-EFI OBDI mailing list. Now look where they are!

So I'm glad there's any help left, had no idea Taz was in tuning business till this thread. For him to spend any time helping us while trying to make a living is a real gift! He helped me a few years ago with Lean Cruise. Just did it for me although that was not what I wanted, I thanked him very kindly and did not expect it. But what I really wanted to know was the how and whys of the subject and he took his time for that as well! There's a few guys on this forum alone like Taz that I go out of my way to read all their posts, the learning never stops.

So a big :thumb_yello: for Taz and all the help he still gives us here! If he want's a few bucks to do things that EFI Live software can't do then all the power to him! With the hours he has spent in R&D to surpass what EFI Live is capable of? He's well worth the cost, wouldn't you agree?

I've got 1000's of hours over many years into dissasembly and still just a beginner even with old OBDI code which is way easier. It's not like there's a online school for reverse engineering GM code...

[tdmkr496]

Try this (attached).

You have a shift kit, and you're seeing soft shifts...? If you still get soft shifts with the attached file, then try setting the shift times tables to 0.2 seconds all across.

I tried your file and it still didn't seem to shift that hard so I went ahead and added the .2 to all three shifts. Should I go up more? The 1-2 seems slightly better, but the 2-3 is still sluggish. The trans is a fresh rebuild, and I had him put a Trans Go HD-2 shift kit in. It shifted great when I first started driving it (about a month ago) and slowly has gotten worse. I really appreciate you guys helping me!

[Taz]

Is this in a daily driver, competition vehicle, tow rig ?

Is your engine tune (VE table) reasonably accurate ?

How firm do you want the shifts to be ?

The decline in the shift quality you mentioned could be tune related or mechanical. Is the fluid level correct ? Does the fluid look dark or have a "burnt" smell ?

[tdmkr496]

Its a street/strip car, this is a COS5 speed density tune. I'm sure the VE tables are still off. The car idles and cruises at 14.4-1 to 14.7-1 AFR but at WOT is pig rich at 10.1-1.

How much does the VE tale affect the shift?

[Taz]

Take a look at the Desired Shift Time tables and the Base Shift Pressure tables - these reference delivered engine torque.

Not a big deal if the engine tune is off - just means that as you refine your engine tune, you may need to revisit the transmission tune.

You never answered how firm you want the shifts ... assuming you want these firm to very firm ?

[tdmkr496]

Yes, I would like them very firm. The engine should make about 550-600 RWHP once the tune is correct. I upped the base shift pressure tables 5% (that was the first thing I did). What should I change the desired shift time tables to?

[Taz]

I'll try and post a tune for you to try in the next day or so ...

[tdmkr496]

Thank you sir, I greatly appreciate the help!

[Taz]

Sorry ... forgot to ask ... do you have a switch wired to access the Performance Mode shift pattern ?

It makes things a little easier if you do ... it lessens the compromise ... a drag strip tune can be difficult to live with on the street, and a street tune may give away a little bit at the strip

[tdmkr496]

No, I haven't figured out how to do that. Is that like tow/haul in the trucks? I have wanted to do this but have not had a chance to get there yet.

[Taz]

Look at parameter D0409 - you want the "One Switch" option. The good folks at EFILive were nice enough to tell you what PCM pin to wire, and to connect this to ground via a momentary switch.

[joecar]

Taz has a good point... if VE table is close then trans line pressure will be closer to matching engine torque.

[EagleMark]

Try this (attached).

You have a shift kit, and you're seeing soft shifts...? If you still get soft shifts with the attached file, then try setting the shift times tables to 0.2 seconds all across.^^ Read above^^ He said set table to! Not add to!


I tried your file and it still didn't seem to shift that hard so I went ahead and added the .2 to all three shifts. Should I go up more? The 1-2 seems slightly better, but the 2-3 is still sluggish. The trans is a fresh rebuild, and I had him put a Trans Go HD-2 shift kit in. It shifted great when I first started driving it (about a month ago) and slowly has gotten worse. I really appreciate you guys helping me! "Slowly gotten worse" is a sign the adaptive learn is working against the shift kit. When you added .2 you made it worse for learn.

Although this thread was for 4L60E I think a lot of it will help understand, it did to me when I started it. Also look at first post! I linked all really good threads on transmission tuning.

HTH!

[EagleMark]

Forgot to add the link and having issues with "Edit Post" so here's the link:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?23094-TCC-Tuning!-TCC-Lock-3rd-at-WOT

[Taz]

..."Slowly gotten worse" is a sign the adaptive learn is working against the shift kit. When you added .2 you made it worse for learn ...

As long as there is no concurrent mechanical issue, then you are probably right on the money. I always disable the Low Pressure Adjust (to keep the PCM from reducing pressures), but keep the High Pressure Adjust active (more pressure is rarely a bad thing).

[tdmkr496]

How do you disable the Low pressure adjust, zero out all the values?

[tdmkr496]

^^ Read above^^ He said set table to! Not add to!

"Slowly gotten worse" is a sign the adaptive learn is working against the shift kit. When you added .2 you made it worse for learn.

Although this thread was for 4L60E I think a lot of it will help understand, it did to me when I started it. Also look at first post! I linked all really good threads on transmission tuning.



HTH!
I typed it wrong, I set to, not added to lol. I will set them back to 0.0

[Taz]

How do you disable the Low pressure adjust, zero out all the values?

Yes.

Try the attached tune ... use caution. Without knowing how much the fluid flow / pressure was increased mechanically by the shift kit, I am merely guessing at a starting point. The attached tune could end up being extremely harsh and unusable, or fairly close for drag strip use.

I also put some torque reduction back in, just to be safe.

This tune is intended as a starting point for developing desired shift firmness. It will not hold first gear if manually selected (no stock 4L80 tune will) - I charge a fee for that service - if that is something that you may need down the road, just send me a PM.

[tdmkr496]

Thank you for all of your help but it looks like the pressure control solenoid is bad. I have one on the way, I'll let you guys know as soon as I get it back running.

[Wolfie]

At the risk of coming across like a dummy (yeah, I've been called that) I have forgotten much more that I probably will learn since I've kinda parked my van,
I'm assuming that it doesn't really hurt the tranny to add in lots of base pressure (D0701,D0702, D0703)? Mine seems to me to shift really soft, even with disabling torque reduction, and zeroing out the desired shift times.

[Taz]

Hi Wolfie ... I can email you one to try if you want ... the one I posted in this thread is far too harsh for a daily driver to use !

To answer your question, you can add quite a lot of pressure to the 3>4, a fair amount of pressure to the 2>3 shift, and a cautious amount of pressure to the 1>2 shift.

With a vehicle like yours, with an active Tow/Haul switch - two separate profiles can be developed. One for daily driving, and the other for towing, drag strip, etc.

Cheers,
Taz

[Wolfie]

Thanks Taz. I've made all the tow/haul normal tables the same....
Then as it's too damn cold out to have the laptop in the vehicle...
I make changes to the tow/haul, try it out, and if it feels good, copy it over to the normal and make more changes to the tow/haul... Thanks for the offer, but all I have now that it's too cold to be building bikes, is play with the van. So I keep plugging away... It's getting there, but I was worried about too much pressure...

[tdmkr496]

I replaced the pressure control solenoid today and checked line pressure, It made about 65 at idle and 160-225 while driving but the shifts have not changed. Anything else I can look at??

[Taz]

Did you try the tune in post #37 ? If it doesn't shift firmly with that tune, then you have a real problem

[tdmkr496]

Yeah, thats the tune I have in it now. Could it be that the VE tables are off as stated earlier?

[Taz]

Unless the VE is underestimating by a great deal (say 50%), then the shifts should have firmed up with that tune.

My point about VE in post # 22, and Joecar's comment in post # 31, was that unless the VE table is reasonably accurate, the torque labels of the individual cells of the shift pressure table do not necessarily reflect actual torque output.

This just means that you would have to adjust shift pressure by feel, or how the individual vehicle responded, rather than with respect to a proposed magnitude of torque output.

As a test, you could set the 3>4 and 2>3 shifts to 96 PSI in all cells - if the transmission still does not shift very firmly - then it is doubtful the issue is in the tune.

[tdmkr496]

What about torque reduction? Should they all be 0's too? Mine is showing in the 20's above 207 ftlbs. Im almost at the point of pulling the trans out and having it checked out. I really appreciate you guys helping me.

[Taz]

With or without TR, increased shift pressure = firmer shifts. I never run any tune with zero TR. To satisfy yourself try it every way you can think of, but it is beginning to look like a mechanical issue of some sort.

[tdmkr496]

I am going to put a pressure gauge on it today to see what it is actually doing. What should i log to see what it is actually doing vs. what is being commanded. Isn't there a way to measure slip %?

[joecar]

Some things to log:
MAF
MAP
TP
VSS
RPM
TIS
TOS
TRQENG
TFMPRS
GEAR
TCCMODE
TCCDC
TCCSLIP
SHIFTLAST
SHIFTERROR
TFT
ECT

To observe internal slippage, compare TIS and TOS; to observe TCC slip, comapare RPM and TIS.

For the 4L80E, when in 4th gear, TIS and RPM will be different since TIS is measured after the overdrive gearset.

[joecar]

...
For the 4L80E, when in 4th gear, TIS and RPM will be different since TIS is measured after the overdrive gearset.In 4th gear, RPM and TIS will be in the ratio 0.75:1.

[tdmkr496]

I figured out what was wrong, the harness inside of the transmission had a broken wire going to the pressure solenoid, that is why I wasn't seeing any changes with tuning. I really appreciate you guys helping me out. BTW Taz that last tune you worked on is a beast!! I'm going to use that as my "performance" tune and make something softer for driving it, so it will be just a push of a button away.