CalcMAF vs CalcVE

[bmd2_colo]

Hello everyone-

Vehicle is 98 Tahoe, L31 5.7 Vortec with 0411 PCM, no issues.

Ok, so I understand that in CALC MAFT you're basically running speed density (MAF disabled) in closed loop to tune the VE table and generate the corresponding matched MAF freq's for the given VE percentages. In my case, I need to use just the LTFTs since I do not have a WB. This method seems to only reference the base VE table for fueling data, no MAF data used. Based on how the O2s trim up, you make the adjustment to the VE table and see how it turned out. How does this method generate suggested MAF data if it is turned off? It seems the 0411 is reading the MAF but just not applying it in the final fuel calc, correct? That would make most sense to me... not sure, you guys are the experts.

Now, with CALC VE you're running with the MAF enabled and like CALC MAFT you're generating a new VE Table AND MAF Freq's from TWO sources this time... the base VE table AND the MAF Hz table, adjusted by LTFT.

Is it more efficient to run CALC MAFT and see what it gives me for suggested MAF Hz, compare it to what the stock MAF Hz really are and see if it passes the common sense check?
OR..
Is it better to run CALC VE and give it two sources of data to read?? Seems like CALC VE is taking two variables and suggesting two NEW ones after the calculation is done. CALC MAFT is only using one source of data and suggesting two solutions. My feeble mind suggests that it would be easier to run CALC MAF (speed dens, MAF disabled) until the trims are dead nuts, then apply the most accurate MAF Hz solution from CALC MAFT into the tune and re-enable the MAF. Then verify.

What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Mike

[joecar]

Hi Mike,


Without CL/LTFT/STFT/SOL:
edit CALC.SELBEN's CLC to always select CALC.WO2BEN as the correction factor.

Without wideband:
edit CALC.SELBEN's CLC to always select CALC.LTFTBEN as the correction factor, and add a clause to the transient filter to exclude CALC.CL = 1.

Yes, this will still generate a new MAF table based on corrected VE table (if you edit CALC.SELBEN's CLC as described above).


Running Calc.MAFT:
You run VE only mode (SD) (by making sure a MAF DTC immediately triggers).
Calc.MAFT does this:
1. corrects VE using either of WO2BEN or LTFTBEN.
2. uses the corrected VE to generate a new MAF.
(you have to extrapolate the new MAF table to outside your log range).
i.e. the MAF is not contributing at all, and the procedure is not using the MAF at all (you can physically remove the MAF if you want).


Note how the two procedures are the symmetric opposites of each other:
Calc.MAFT: corrects VE and generates a new MAF from it.
Calc.VET: corrects MAF and generates a new VE from it.
Each has one input (either WO2BEN or LTFTBEN), corrects one table, and genrates the other table from it.
Each procedure is the exact symmetric inverse/opposite of the other (compare the equations used for CALC.VEN and CALC.MAF).


Running Calc.VET:
You run in either of these modes:
- MAF only mode (by disabling VE by setting B0120 to zero),
- MAF/VE transiton mode (and you make sure the transient filter is sufficiently wide to filter out VE contribution which occurs during throttle/airmass transients).
Calc.VET does this:
1. corrects the MAF using either of WO2BEN or LFTTBEN.
2. uses the corrected MAF to generate a new VE.
(you have to extrapolate the new VE table to outside your log range).


i.e. each method corrects one table, and generates the other table from it.


Calc.VET is easiest to do since it requires hardly any setup (you just go out and log... and when you get back you make sure that the transient filter is wide enough to exclude transient throttle).


If you don't have wideband you are limited to applying corrections from CL only.

[bmd2_colo]

Thank you, sir.
I'll dig into it this weekend and see what I come up with!

M

[bmd2_colo]

Joecar-

I appreciate the guidance on this, for sure.
Which parameters should i use for the VE and MAF tables for applying the datalog?

just like the original Calc VE ones?
I'm assuming i only need two (like the original), right? Which parameters am I using for Data in each table?
I know this should be simple, I'm learnng this stuff lol

Thanks for any help!
M

[bmd2_colo]

Chose to use CALC_VET.
using this calc_pids for the CALC_VET, fwiw. No WB O2. Look ok? Yah, I'm just not sure which PID(s) to use in the data fields for the tables. Thanks for the help, big time!!!


16485

[bmd2_colo]

I've just found the CALC_VET Tutorial.pdf. I think I'll be able to answer my own questions in an hour or two...

[bmd2_colo]

Great job on these PDFs, wow. Wish I would have found it earlier so I could avoid total noob questions... lol

Hey, thanks for a great system in EFILive. Such a pleasure to use when compared to my old OBD-1 TunerPro stuff I used for TBI.

Hopefully I can get out this weekend and trim up this tune... The '02 Express Van tune is pig rich from the factory.

Great idea to use the WB O2 outside of closed loop and use the NB O2s inside!!

Hit you guys up later, thanks



-posting this up for other dudes who might need it (calc_pids, CALC_VET.pid, CALC_VET Tutorial, CALC_VET Summary Notes). I probably missed them somewhere in the official CALC_VET thread... honestly I think I'm seeing double right now... switching from PDF to Scantool to tune tool to pdf to scan to tune to .txt a million times lol

16486

[joecar]

Chose to use CALC_VET.
using this calc_pids for the CALC_VET, fwiw. No WB O2. Look ok? Yah, I'm just not sure which PID(s) to use in the data fields for the tables. Thanks for the help, big time!!!


16485Yes, that looks correct

[ replaced SELBEN with LTFTBEN in both CLC-00-305 and CLC-00-315 ]

[joecar]

I've just found the CALC_VET Tutorial.pdf. I think I'll be able to answer my own questions in an hour or two...The pdf is out of date... use post #1 of the Calc.VET thread.

[ I'm preparing to update the pdf from new info from the thread ]

[ecir45]

I'm preparing to update the pdf from new info from the thread

:).

[bmd2_colo]

Well, that was a total bust lol

Went for a little log session, I must have built the maps incorrectly or something because it gave me VEs of 2-1100 in random cells... The MAF table was messed up also. Guess I'll try the original CALC_VE stuff and see what happens?

[bmd2_colo]

Tried the original CALC_VE pdf, worked fine. Works good enough for now, I'll just wait until the CALC_VET.pdf stuff is set up on the CALC_VET thread. I didn't see a pdf on the first page that thread... Joecar can you post the new/updated CALC_VET.pdf in the thread?

Thanks again!

Mike

[IJ.]

Well, that was a total bust lol

Went for a little log session, I must have built the maps incorrectly or something because it gave me VEs of 2-1100 in random cells... The MAF table was messed up also. Guess I'll try the original CALC_VE stuff and see what happens?

Are you looking at correction or cell count?

Left side top there's an X and an N, click the X.

[bmd2_colo]

IJ-
I hit the average button like you're supposed to... almost made that mistake lol.
Think I screwed the table up. Ya, CALC VE works fine, I'll check my numbers tonight and hit the streets tomorrow morn.

The initial CALC_VE brought VE down about 5% on average. BLMs were down (I mean LTFTs) so it is becoming more accurate but I'm gonna try the CALC_VET (even tho I have the old CALC_VET tutorial) with just NBs tomorrow to try and get the MAF in.

[IJ.]

Was just an idea, I freaked myself out the other day looking at my KR Map and seeing a "12" ;)

Joe will know what you've done wrong!

[bmd2_colo]

Oh and I'm replacing my plugs and O2s sensors with ACDelco factory parts in order to get a fresh start on things.
I've had the truck for 4 years but never driven it (been overseas) and once i actually start with CALC_VET I want to have fresh plugs and O2s for consistency.
I haven't changed them since I bought the truck in 2010... Only put a few hundred miles on it tho

[bmd2_colo]

Joe seems like the reigning authority lol
Definitely appreciate the help!

[joecar]

Well, that was a total bust lol

Went for a little log session, I must have built the maps incorrectly or something because it gave me VEs of 2-1100 in random cells... The MAF table was messed up also. Guess I'll try the original CALC_VE stuff and see what happens?Post screenshots of your maps...

[joecar]

The Calc.VET thread (post #1 of each) is a refinement of the original/old Calc VE pdf...

Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log) (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log))

it has improved information, expands on dynamic air temp, expands on wideband usage...

if you can get it to work you will be in a better position compared to the old procedure.



Some things to consider:
- does IFR match injectors and rail pressure and FPR reference mode...?
- has VE and/or MAF been scaled without IFR being scaled...?
- are front NBO2 sensors working correctly (do they have less than 60K miles)...?
- are there any airleaks (or airflow that is not accounted for by MAF, e.g. PCV alteration)...?

[joecar]

Joe seems like the reigning authority lol
Definitely appreciate the help!
No problem, no worries :cheers:

[bmd2_colo]

I deleted the old calc_pids and .pid I was using,I think I can rebuild it in a minute. still have the log file, tho.
gimme a minute or two to make the calc_pids real quick and I'll get back to ya and post my log

-edit
and I'll post the screens.

[bmd2_colo]

ok, here we are
log file
16492
pids
16491

Calculated MAF Hz Counts, below
16493
Calculated MAF Hz, below
16490



Calculated VE counts, below
16495
Calculated VE, posted below
16494

[bmd2_colo]

no airleaks, no injector changes, etc (kinda hard with the L31 anyway). No base pulse constant changes. This is a stock L31 5.7 Vortec. 100% stock... no aftermarket parts. The only addon I have done is adding 05+ fans (the main reason I swapped to an 0411 in the first place). No exhaust changes, etc. Stock exhaust system

[IJ.]

pic 1 and 3 you have it set to cell counts ;)

[bmd2_colo]

pics 2 and 4, I hit the average button.

[bmd2_colo]

well, tried CALC_VET again this morn but to no avail. Started from scratch and followed the pdf to the letter.

I really don't understand why all my cells go to zero when I hit the average button.!
I'll post my stuff if anyone wants to see for themselves.

16496
16497
16498


Thanks

[ecir45]

Havent done calc vet yet but after reading the cac vet thread the most common mistake has been making sure the calc ve pids units match your B0100 table in your tune. You can use % or g*K.kPa just make sure they are the same for the pid and the B0100 table.

For that matter make sure all pids units match the units you are using in your tune.

[bmd2_colo]

Ok, my .tun VE table is displayed in %, I selected the Calculated VE, BEN Corrected % data option in the table settings. Tried both (% and g/K/kpa) and it still gives me nada.

The pids file looks like this

# ================================================== ============================
# File details
# ------------
#
# This section defines various details about the file format.

*FILE

#Parameter Value Description
#---------- ---------------- ---------------------------------------------------
VERSION 7.1.1 File version
DECSEP . Decimal separator used in this file


# ================================================== ============================
# Units
# -------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on the *UNITS section

*UNITS

#Code System Abbr Description
#-------- ---------- -------- -------------------------------------------------------------
None None "" "No units"
K Metric "K" "Degrees Kelvin"
R Imperial "R" "Degrees Rankine"
PSI Imperial "PSI" "Pounds Per Square Inch"


# ================================================== ============================
# Add slot definitions here
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on "SLOT" formats
#
#Units Low High Fmt Expression
#------------ ------------- ------------- ---- --------------------------------------------------------------

*CLC-00-032
factor 0 1 .0 "{GM.EQIVRATIO}=1"

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1}"

*CLC-00-120
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "({SAE.LONGFT1}+{SAE.LONGFT2})/200+1"

*CLC-00-220
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "iff({CALC.CL}, {CALC.WO2BEN}, {CALC.LTFTBEN})"

*CLC-00-300
% 0.0 100.0 .2 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)/{SAE.RPM}/{SAE.MAP.kPa}*3445.2/displacement()"
VE 0.0 2.468 .4 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM_DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)/{SAE.RPM}/{SAE.MAP.kPa}*15"

*CLC-00-320
% 0.0 100.0 .2 "{CALC.SELBEN}*{CALC.VEN.%}"
VE 0.0 2.468 .4 "{CALC.SELBEN}*{CALC.VEN.VE}"


# ================================================== ============================
*PRN - Parameter Reference Numbers
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on the *PRN section
#
#Code PRN SLOT Units System Description
#------------------------- ---- ------------ ---------------- ---------------- ------------------------------------------

CALC.CL F032 CLC-00-032 factor Tuning "Closed Loop (based on EQIVRATIO)"

CALC.WO2BEN F110 CLC-00-110 factor Tuning "BEN from Serial WB"

CALC.LTFTBEN F120 CLC-00-120 factor Tuning "BEN from LTFT"

CALC.SELBEN F220 CLC-00-220 factor Tuning "BEN selected from WB or LTFT"

CALC.VEN F300 CLC-00-300 "%,VE" Tuning "Calculated VE, not corrected"

CALC.VET F320 CLC-00-320 "%,VE" Tuning "Calculated VE, BEN corrected"

[bmd2_colo]

Using a FlashScan V1, fwiw

[ecir45]

again I am green here. Look at the calc vet thread part I. 1. A.

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log)

"A. Set Displacement: open a Log File, go Edit->Log File Information->Vehicle Options, and next to Engine enter the displacement in cc, click Ok, and save the log file.
This matters only if you're using [%] VE units; if you're using [g*K/kPa] VE units then you do not need displacement."

I think this is why most prefer using [g*K/kPa]

[ecir45]

NOTE: use the CALC.VE pid units that match your B0101 table, i.e. either % or g*K.kPa.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log)&p=142003&viewfull=1#post142003

On the map's Data, Row, Col tabs, checkmark Show Units, sand re-save the map... this helps avoid confusion
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log)&p=142018&viewfull=1#post142018

Under edit in your tune file you can change units.

[bmd2_colo]

Thanks ecir45, i'll check when i get back home. Stuffing my face right now

[bmd2_colo]

Well, that changed (changing log file info) two cells from 0.0 to .2 and 3.5, but all the other cells are still 0.0.

Something wrong with my calc_pids, has to be. calculated ve of 3.5%? i dont think so lol
I'm trackin on the units, everything is matched up.

[joecar]

Use g*K/kPa everywhere... (if you must use %, did you set the displacement as noted above...?)

[joecar]

Also, on each of your two maps, on the Data tab increase the precision to 4 decimal digits.


On the PIDs tab, are any of the selected pids invalid (red X thru them)...?


On the Data tab, what values show up for CALC.VEN...?


I'll take a closer look at your log file shortly...

[bmd2_colo]

Ok, doube checked the displacement in the log file, is set to 5.669 liters.
Increased to four decimal digits on both, the MAF table looks good with numbers like .9368, etc, so paste with multiply and that should be good to go.

The A map for Calculated VE, BEN Corrected % still gives me good counts but the 3.5 in one cell and .19 something in another after I average the cells.
Tried using the Calcuated VE, BEN Corrected g*K/kpa and all zeros after I hit the avg button.

Looks like the calculated MAF hz is working, tho!! Awesome, thanks joecar. Wonder what is up with my Calculated VE, BEN corrected % stuff.

[bmd2_colo]

calculated VE, Not corrected (CALC.VEN) is the only PID that shows up with a red X. Not sure why. All the PIDs where good to go when I logged the data eariler today

[darcy]

Right click on the PID and choose More Info to find out why it is invalid.

I opened your log, and this is the VET map that I produce, in g*K/kPa (Filtered for Closed Loop & Hide Cells less than 10 hits)

16499

[bmd2_colo]

checked my calc_pids, added displacement 5.669 to the calc_pids as seen below. still not giving me good numbers, gotta be somewhere in here...

*CLC-00-300
% 0.0 100.0 .2 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)/{SAE.RPM}/{SAE.MAP.kPa}*3445.2/(5.669)"
VE 0.0 2.468 .4 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM_DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)/{SAE.RPM}/{SAE.MAP.kPa}*15"

[bmd2_colo]

Right click on the PID and choose More Info to find out why it is invalid.

I opened your log, and this is the VET map that I produce, in g*K/kPa (Filtered for Closed Loop & Hide Cells less than 10 hits)

16499


Now that is what I need!! Good idea, I'll check

[bmd2_colo]

posted the screenshot. Dividing by zero... yah, that will screw it up. What changes should I make to the calc_pids? I have no idea how to fix the divide by zero thing. Where is position 36?

16502

[bmd2_colo]

had a _ where a . should have been in the calc_pids...

but, to my amazement, the VET is still messed up. All PIDs are good., no red Xs

[bmd2_colo]

tried the g*K/kpa. no dice. not really sure why you can produce a table with sensible data from my own damn log and I can't seem to do it. lol

[bmd2_colo]

darcy, did you try it using the Calc VE Table %? Sounds like your calc_pids.txt is built correctly. What would be really frustrating is that if your calc_pids is identical to mine.
At least the MAF part is working, I like that. thanks for the pointers, man!

[darcy]

Table with %.
16503

Also, my calc_pids.txt file attached FYI. 16504 It's essentially the same as the CALC_PIDS.txt file from post 1 of the CALC.VET thread.

[joecar]

had a _ where a . should have been in the calc_pids...

but, to my amazement, the VET is still messed up. All PIDs are good., no red XsDo this:

copy the calc_pid.txt from the Calc.VET thread and use that...

if you want to add the EOP pid to it, then use a file difference program to compare the two files and surgically slice in the EOP stuff (e.g. look for WinMerge on www.sourceforge.com).

[joecar]

had a _ where a . should have been in the calc_pids...

but, to my amazement, the VET is still messed up. All PIDs are good., no red XsDid you select the pid CALC.DAT...?

[ on PIDs tab, on CALC.VEN do rightclick->More Info, it says that CALC.DAT is not selected.

[joecar]

This is what I see from your log file:

CALC.SELBEN B5001 MAF map looks real good:
16507

CALC.VET B0101 VE map looks fairly good:
16506

[statesman]

This is what I see from your log file:

CALC.SELBEN B5001 MAF map looks real good:

CALC.VET B0101 VE map looks fairly good:

Okay... now have a look at his LTFT's. :ermm:

[bmd2_colo]

Thanks guys, I'll work on it when I get home later tonight!

[bmd2_colo]

Well, no dice. tried the calc_pids from the thread, added calc.dat and everytime I load my log file my list of PIDs shrinks and the CALC_VET table still gives me all zeros. The list of PIDs initially says all are valid but when I load the logfile it screws everything up. Then Calculated VE, not corrected (CALC.VEN) shows invalid.
Does anyone have a good PID list? I'm going off the PID list in the pdf, it doesn't show CALC.DAT but joecar said to add it so it has been added. Saved my PID list, but when I load the logfile it invalidates CALC.VEN and drops a couple PIDs off.

Maybe I'll just start all over, create a new log and see what happens.

So; I will use the calc_pids from the CALC_VET thread, use the PID list in the PDF and add CALC.DAT(like Joecar said). I will create the tables as per the instructions in the PDF. I will also make sure my displacement is set in the log file and in the calc_pids file. This would be square one, to the best of my knowledge.

[bmd2_colo]

Owe you guys a beer (or 3) for the ongoing help... owe you guys big time. sooner or later it WILL WORK lol

[bmd2_colo]

Wow, still not working. going with CALC_VE.pdf (because it is the only one that works so far) for a few days... putting the CALC_VET stuff on hold for a while before I throw my laptop throw the windshield lol

I'm gonna go to a test run with CALC_VE and see if THAT still works.

[bmd2_colo]

CALC_VE works fine, good numbers on CALC_VE table and the new MAF Hz table. I set table B0120 to 400 to run straight off the MAF. I had to re-enable the CALC.VE Table PID (for some reason the PID list changed when I loaded up the log file).

[joecar]

Also select the pid CALC.DAT


If you do rightclick->More Info on CALC.VEN you will see that this is what is lacking.

[joecar]

Well, no dice. tried the calc_pids from the thread, added calc.dat and everytime I load my log file my list of PIDs shrinks and the CALC_VET table still gives me all zeros. The list of PIDs initially says all are valid but when I load the logfile it screws everything up. Then Calculated VE, not corrected (CALC.VEN) shows invalid.
Does anyone have a good PID list? I'm going off the PID list in the pdf, it doesn't show CALC.DAT but joecar said to add it so it has been added. Saved my PID list, but when I load the logfile it invalidates CALC.VEN and drops a couple PIDs off.

Maybe I'll just start all over, create a new log and see what happens.

So; I will use the calc_pids from the CALC_VET thread, use the PID list in the PDF and add CALC.DAT(like Joecar said). I will create the tables as per the instructions in the PDF. I will also make sure my displacement is set in the log file and in the calc_pids file. This would be square one, to the best of my knowledge.Post screenshot of this.

Post your new pidlist.

No, don't start over... let's get this worked out so we can see where the problem is.

Forget about the pdf, it is old.

Forget about displacement, use g*K/kPa instead.

( when I formulate the new pdf, you don't want to be out of sync with it, right...? )

( the problem is that the Calc.VET brings together many concepts (compares to other tutorials), it forces a person to learn the tool rather than blindly following a procedure
)

[bmd2_colo]

Thanks Joecar.

I'll follow the thread for CALC_VET and use grams vs %. I'll post back when I build all the stuff and get my errors, etc.

On a side note, logged for 25 minutes just driving normally, a few hard accelerations, etc and ran it through CALC_VE, worked well. chopped 3-7% off of the VE table and brought the MAF down like it should. LTFTs now are 0.0 to -0.8 (pretty good, imo) but idle is still fat with LTFTs stable at -3.3% and -4.8% on both banks. No big deal, really.

Yah, I'll go through the CALC_VET process again and see what happens and post it.

THank you, sir

M

[bmd2_colo]

Looks like CALC_VET is working!

Added all the PIDS from page 1 of the thread (both PID list screenshots and in addition, CALC.DAT), saved it as CALCVET.PID and connected to the truck and tried to validate the PIDs.
16511

After that, right clicked on each one to see which parameters the PIDs with red Xs wanted. Added them, re-connected to the truck.

16517

OMFG, everything looks good so far!

OK, built the tables like this.


16513



16512






I did not change the log file's displacement to 5.669L. I changed it in the calc_pids.txt file. I know, g/sec but lemme take it one step at a time lol

Opened up a logfile that I had created with the CALC_VET.pid list a few days ago to see if it would work (my CALC_VE.pid logs were NOT working, makes sense tho. Logfiles were created with different PID lists)

After building and applying the filters for fast TPS changes and temp and Closed loop AND removing low cell counts, I hit the average button...

16514


16518



So it looks like it is working!! Wow, finally. Thanks to Joecar and the guys!!

Here are my files that I used.
16515
16516

[bmd2_colo]

now I just rose up to where everybody else was with tuning. LOL

[bmd2_colo]

blended in the cells surrounding the changes, still gotta do more higher RPM stuff.
Gear changes with constant TPS spike rich, MAP change enrichment I assume.

Hopefully smooth it out a bit more with some more logging.

Current 98 Tahoe L31/40E 4x4 VE
16520



Original Express Van L31 VE
16519

[joecar]

now I just rose up to where everybody else was with tuning. LOLGood deal :cheers:

Also do this: in the map properties for each of the two maps, goto each of the Data, Row, Col tabs and checkmark Show Units and save the map properties.

[joecar]

blended in the cells surrounding the changes, still gotta do more higher RPM stuff.
Gear changes with constant TPS spike rich, MAP change enrichment I assume.

Hopefully smooth it out a bit more with some more logging.

Current 98 Tahoe L31/40E 4x4 VE
16520

. . .

Looks pretty good... don't smooth it too much.

[joecar]

Looks like CALC_VET is working!

. . .
I replaced the necessary pids picture in post #1 of the Calc.VET thread (shows CALC.DAT selected), thanks to ecir45 (http://forum.efilive.com/member.php?22426-ecir45) for the updated pic.