60lb injector woes chicken or the egg

[ddnspider]

Friend is turbo'ing his 99 SS and just purchased 60# injectors used from a board member. I have Greg Banish injector data and copied over all of the particulars. Setup is a single intank Walbro 340, no FPR, stock rails. On startup the car is dead rich, but seems to idle okay. Verified with an LC2 wideband in the downpipe. I went over the injector data vs. another car I've tuned with the same injectors and had no issues. I tried pulling upwards of 150% from the MAF curve as well as telling the PCM that the injectors are as big as 50% larger and cannot make the car get NEAR 14.X:1 A/F. It constantly stays in the 11's or richer. Verified 4 bar of fuel pressure. Looking for any ideas. Car ran great with my old NA tune in his car with the turbo setup on the car and stock injectors, so the rest of the setup should be sound. So could I be missing something in the tune or could the used injectors be trashed? I also want to rule out the wideband even though its brand new and worked great with the old injectors.

[statesman]

Post the tune file.

Also, you haven't made it clear if the problem is with the chicken or the egg. :laugh:

[ddnspider]

The chicken would be the injectors and the egg would be the tune :)

Tune uploaded....it was just meant to be a starter tune until I can actually log the car. I'm leaning towards the injectors and not the tune, but who knows.

[picnic_george]

Have the injectors checked and flowed. That will tell you if there is a problem.

If not, the tune is out of whack.

[ddnspider]

Or....if the tune looks fine, then it must be the injectors...

[statesman]

The tune looks tragic.

Try this adjusted tune...

[ddnspider]

The tune looks tragic.

Try this adjusted tune...

Tragic, serious? Its just a base tune to get it running. None of the rpm related changes have anything to do with it running pig rich. The car idles fine, its a stock heads/cam setup. And RPM threshold for airflow calc, there is no difference between 0rpm and 400rpm, both will put it into MAF only mode. I see you lowered the min pulsewidth. Will 60 lb injectors actually function that low? Thanks for the help thus far.

[statesman]

Tragic, serious?

No, not serious. :laugh:

400rpm is like a normally used value to go MAF only, so that's why I changed it.


I see you lowered the min pulsewidth. Will 60 lb injectors actually function that low?

They should.


The car idles fine

I don't understand... is it pig rich at idle or non-idle?... or both?

[ddnspider]

No, not serious. :laugh:

400rpm is like a normally used value to go MAF only, so that's why I changed it.



They should.



I don't understand... is it pig rich at idle or non-idle?... or both?

Its pig rich at idle. I haven't tried driving it cause I'm afraid it'll wash down the cylinders if I run it too rich for too long. I had the tune in the car, closed loop MAF & VE, with stock injectors, car idled perfectly around 14.5. We swapped injectors and updated the injector tables for the 60 lber's and now its super rich.

[statesman]

Its pig rich at idle.

That's what I thought the problem was. Try the adjusted tune... and log the idle including IBPW1.

Your open loop table is set to run rich until you reach an ECT of 70C... so idle the engine until it warms up past 70C and then see if it's still rich.

[ddnspider]

That's what I thought the problem was. Try the adjusted tune... and log the idle including IBPW1.

Your open loop table is set to run rich until you reach an ECT of 70C... so idle the engine until it warms up past 70C and then see if it's still rich.

I did that already. Car warmed up to 176* and was still buried in the high 10's to low 11's. And I tried IFR table adding 30% twice so it would think the injectors are much larger than they are and lean it out. I also pulled 150% from the MAF curve, which also should have leaned it WAY out. Still pig rich.

[statesman]

I did that already.

With my adjusted tune?

I think you're hitting minimum pulse... try the adjustments I made and see if it helps or not... and log the idle so we can see what IBPW is being commanded.

[ddnspider]

Will do.

[5.7ute]

B9021. This is a pulsewidth floor that causes this problem all the time. Go here if you do not have the cax file yet https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?17699-need-B9021-for-01250003/page2.

[statesman]

I don't think there's a cax file for a 99 OS.

[5.7ute]

Which OS is it? I do not have efilive here.

[statesman]

09373372

[ddnspider]

Yes, its a 99 SS. Does that mean there isn't a cax for that year?

[ddnspider]

Can someone tell me how to get an 02 OS loaded, then I assume I can get a cax file uploaded?

[statesman]

The 99 has a different PCM than the 02... I don't know if your PCM is compatible with an 02 OS. If you can flash in an 02 OS, then you can get the cax file for B9021.

[Taz]

I don't think there's a cax file for a 99 OS.

There is ...

[Taz]

Yes, its a 99 SS. Does that mean there isn't a cax for that year?

There is a *.cax file for your 1999 OS

[Taz]

Can someone tell me how to get an 02 OS loaded, then I assume I can get a cax file uploaded?

If you were going to upgrade to a 2002 OS prior to this issue, then go ahead. If you were not planning on upgrading your 1999 OS, then just be patient and I have no doubt that the necessary *.cax file will find its way to you.

[ddnspider]

If you were going to upgrade to a 2002 OS prior to this issue, then go ahead. If you were not planning on upgrading your 1999 OS, then just be patient and I have no doubt that the necessary *.cax file will find its way to you.
What are the benefits of moving to the 2002 OS other than losing the backup VE table? And if I provide an email address can that cax file find its way to me faster? :)

[ddnspider]

Im also not entirely sure how to go to the 02 OS, if its just a full flash or is more involved.

[5.7ute]

To change to an 02 OS you also need to repin the harness to suit.
I will post the cax file up shortly.
Credit must go to Taz who spent many hours sorting through hex to find this parameter in the previously unsupported OS's.

[ddnspider]

To change to an 02 OS you also need to repin the harness to suit.
I will post the cax file up shortly.
Credit must go to Taz who spent many hours sorting through hex to find this parameter in the previously unsupported OS's.
Ok, now that threw me for a loop. I thought 99-02 was all the same, only 98 PCM required a wiring change.

[ddnspider]

I assume I upload the cax file to C:\Program Files\EFILive\V7.5\Calibrations\LS1B and then just open the tune I was using and should see the new table?

[ddnspider]

Ok did some digging and found a post by Joe that says I need a cal_link.txt file too?

[Highlander]

I believe the only difference between 99 and 02 ECU is knock sensor drivers.... fueling shouldn't be affected... Still, it is better to have everything running right the first time.

[5.7ute]

Extract the file into the folder C:\Program Files\EFILive\V7.5\Calibrations\LS1B. When you next open the tune file the parameter should be in the injector sub folder. Cal link txt modifications are not necessary for the cax file to be active.

[joecar]

If it's a 1999 F-car then the PCM can run the 2002 OS (without re-pinning the PCM)... and the knock sensors are the same.

[joecar]

If you decide to go with the 2002 OS, you can full flash in a 12212156 file with the same transmission as your car.

You will then be using the 12212156.cax file (for B9021).

[joecar]

The cal_link.txt file has been renamed... for LS1A and LS1B it is named LS1_link.ini...


it is used for scantool->tunetool pid linking (into the table axes).

[joecar]

The advantages of running 12212156:
- you have a choice of installing COS3/02020003 or COS5/02020005 for boosted applications,
- you have a choice of running the 4L60E or the 4L80E.

[ddnspider]

Extract the file into the folder C:\Program Files\EFILive\V7.5\Calibrations\LS1B. When you next open the tune file the parameter should be in the injector sub folder. Cal link txt modifications are not necessary for the cax file to be active.Thanks for the help!

Thanks Joe, I thought the 99-02 was the same PCM without a repin. Assuming that this transient fuel min pulsewidth fixes my issue, I'll look into the 02 tune and custom OS.

[ddnspider]

Just a note, I couldn't put it in the calibrations\ls1B as it wouldn't see the new table in the tune. I had to put it in the root calibrations\ folder and then it showed up in the tune.

[ddnspider]

Issue fixed! Thanks guys! It was the transient min pulsewidth messing with me.