VE Map after CALC.VET update

[Tinbender59]

Joecar, does this look right? I switched over to % of max and this is what I see??? unsmoothed at this point, but not loaded up yet

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tinbender59/15200401211/


Is it just me? or is that some crazzy stuff right there??? I double checked the CC's per cylinder, it is 713cc for a 5.7, any other thoughts? other than that is what the TPI does for us??

[Tinbender59]

What are the hazzards of having this table's values to high, trying to figure out which direction to smooth it out, push up in the highest value's direction, or pull down to something moderatly high?

[Supercharged111]

That looks weird, like you missed a shitload of cells on your datalog. When you log, monitor the map that has the VE correction values. Click the n button so all you see is how many samples each cell has. Concentrate on narrow RPM band, say 1600 and 2000 RPMs and try to hit every cell in them. When you're done, try filling 2400 and 2800. Keep going until you've got at least 50 hits in every cell. You won't hit every single cell, so those are the ones you extrapolate or guess on. You should be able to hit most though.

[joecar]

Joecar, does this look right? I switched over to % of max and this is what I see??? unsmoothed at this point, but not loaded up yet

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tinbender59/15200401211/


Is it just me? or is that some crazzy stuff right there??? I double checked the CC's per cylinder, it is 713cc for a 5.7, any other thoughts? other than that is what the TPI does for us??Looks wrong.

Use g*K/kPa units instead (so you can avoid having to play with discplacement).

[joecar]

Sorry, I've been at the hospital the last few days (her Dad is in ICU)... I'll take a closer look tomorrow.

[joecar]

Is your IFR table correct...?

If your FPR manifold-referenced or un-referenced...?

[Tinbender59]

Joe sorry to hear about your Dad, I completely understand. My Dad had 3 heart attacks, 1st at 43, then the 4th at 55 got him, I was 26 when it happened, that was 29 years ago I am now 55 and no major issues, just 1 minor stress attack. But oh how many times I could have used his wisdom since he Passed. Make the best of it and make as many good memories as you can while you can, "this is from experience - or lack of, speaking to you my friend"

referenced, yesterday I had a 2001 or 2 K1500 4X4 on the trailer, had to bring it to town for trany work. so I was able to get a good hour of " while loaded" data logging. all across the board, and fairly good RPM ranges. smoothed it then plugged it in to the tune, also added the MAF adjustment and the MAF looks real smooth. It runs and sounds way different now, I am "now" getting a lot of piston rattle "knock" on hard accelleration. dont know if it is lean out or timming, I do have the timming rather aggressive. My AFR's tend to go in the lean diriction in the higher RPM's as well, is this a problem that PE adjustments could fix or do I need to look at the timming first??? I have been trying to map the knock retard, just not sure what PID's to plug into the Map other than RPM?? I have tried 3 variations, and of course I get 3 different answers. if I can figure this out I can interpolate a new timing chart for the tune. unless there is an easer way with out a dyno? The tune is getting closer, and the tougher problems are starting to show up now :-)

also it may be helpful to know that this is a 1996 LT1 with a 1986 TPI on it with a 411 running it, I expect the mapping to not look like anything that has ever been seen before. LOL it is a frankinstine for sure, but dang it runs so well. I accidentally "watching the maping" got it up to 90mph while pulling, and the truck acted like it was running 60mph. it is different than anything I have ever drivin.

[joecar]

Thanks for the kind words.

[joecar]

After you get the MAF corrected, you need to also correct the VE table (because VE table is referenced during transient throttle below 4000 rpm).

If you get knock on acceleration, it is probably both lean and timing... do check these:
- is PE mode enabling (see B3616);
- is PE fueling sufficient (see B3618), it should be about EQR 1.165 to 1.175 if the MAF and VE tables are correct;
- is HO spark timing advanced too far, it should be no more that 24 degrees at around 4000 rpm at WOT (MAP 100 kPa) for LS1;
- is IAT too high (see if you can get cold air);
- is ECT too high, try to keep it below 200F.

[joecar]

If AFR goes lean at higher RPM, then log RPM, MAF, MAFFREQ and look at where the MAF table is referenced, it may need to be increased a little here.

Also, if AFR goes lean momentarily when throttle is opening (transient) then check the VE table and increase it a little here also (MAP by RPM).

[joecar]

Which map...?

If you look at post #1 of the Calc.VET thread it shows how to make a map using Copy-with-Labels (form tunetool table) and Paste Labels (in scantool map).

[joecar]

Double check this:
- if your FPR is manifold referenced then your IFR table should be flat;
- if your FPR is un-referenced then your IFR table should slope.

In both cases make sure the IFR table is correct for the injectors.

[Tinbender59]

Thanks for the tips I'll get on that as soon as I can. Bad thing is within the next two weeks and m changing the cam, porting th intake, an posably larger injectors. I have 27's in it now, looking at 36's "I already have them. Just not sure if I need them, I do plan on doing a dual tune with E85 as the second tune since I have 11:1 compression?

[Supercharged111]

Commanded AFR should always match actual. If not, the commanded AFR isn't to blame, it's either MAF or VE tables. The reason I haven't gotten more aggressive with my timing yet is because I know fueling is off. For now, I've committed PE rape to make the truck usable until I figure out how to do calc.VE. Every time you flash, you reset your LTFTs which take some time to learn. Until you learn, your fueling is off and when that's the case you can't nail timing down 100% because you might encounter slight KR if you get 13.5:1 in hot weather when you really want 12.5:1 that might have staved it off. When I'm tuning, I tend to run no more than 30 minutes between flashes which resets all fuel trims right when they were starting to become useful. That's where I'm at with timing at the moment, though I'm absolutely shocked at LTFTs on the 411 compared to the blackbox's stock form. They really are that much better! Pay close attention to the MAF tables, I'm told the 01-02 Express van used a different MAF than our trucks which explains the high RPM/high load lean-ness in unaltered form. I know the LS1 got the LS6 MAF starting in 2001 and the LS6 MAF really is just a 6.0 truck MAF so if they carried that over to the 5.7 trucks then there it is.

[Supercharged111]

Thanks for the tips I'll get on that as soon as I can. Bad thing is within the next two weeks and m changing the cam, porting th intake, an posably larger injectors. I have 27's in it now, looking at 36's "I already have them. Just not sure if I need them, I do plan on doing a dual tune with E85 as the second tune since I have 11:1 compression?

If the cam is bigger, it will likely want more advance sooner and possibly less total if it increases cylinder pressure substantially. The current injectors ought to feed the motor even with the new cam (comparing to my ~430hp LS6 with 28# injectors). If I were you, I'd do one at a time so if the cam happens first, get it tuned properly on the current injectors before changing over to the larger units in anticipation of future mods. Also curious how you pulled off 11:1 compression?

[Tinbender59]

I believe it is actually 10.5+ ish LT1 96 300 HP version. But it is easer to say 11. Lol. You caught me on that one! But with reverse water flow and aluminum heads it can be pushed farther than that.

[Supercharged111]

That's why the LT1s gobble up the timing so well. I think the 300hp version is rated such because of the ram air and less lying on GM's part (C4 Corevettes were 300hp) and not so much due to any internal badassery. They're all good for 300hp on a stock tune if they're uncorked and we're still talking stock manifolds. My LT1 is down on torque but still makes 260/290 at the wheels with a 44mm restrictor plate. The cool guys get ~265/315 on ~42mm plates.

[joecar]

After you get the MAF corrected, you need to also correct the VE table (because VE table is referenced during transient throttle below 4000 rpm).

If you get knock on acceleration, it is probably both lean and timing... do check these:
- is PE mode enabling (see B3616);
- is PE fueling sufficient (see B3618), it should be about EQR 1.165 to 1.175 if the MAF and VE tables are correct;
- is HO spark timing advanced too far, it should be no more that 24 degrees at around 4000 rpm at WOT (MAP 100 kPa) for LS1;
- is IAT too high (see if you can get cold air);
- is ECT too high, try to keep it below 200F.For LT1 you may be able to run more timing... I'm not sure, but probably 30 degrees.

[joecar]

Commanded AFR should always match actual. If not, the commanded AFR isn't to blame, it's either MAF or VE tables.

...

until I figure out how to do calc.VE.

..Yes, correct, this is the key to tuning.

Soon (when wife's Dad is out of hospital) I can walk you thru Calc.VET over the phone :) ...same with Tinbender59.

[Tinbender59]

I drawing a blank here? what is IFR?

here is some data to look over, the vetspark_0000 is the tune that I had logged while towing.

the VEMAF is with the "FIRST" scan run "unloaded" plugged in, I did not like the looks of it so I did not load it up.



I'm anxious to hear your thoughts??

oops!! the "smooth" is what I am getting ready to load, It Has the tow information in, smoothed and blended in.

[joecar]

IFR = injector flow rate table

IFR has to be scaled from the injector's rated flow spec's to the actual rail pressure...

the scaling factor is the squareroot of the ratio of the pressures: sqrt(measured rail pressure / rated pressure)

[joecar]

Ok, your FPR is referenced (from post #7) so your IFR should be flat... I'll take a closer look at your files in post #20 later tonite.

So you started with file 1997_vetspark_0000, then you logged, then you applied Calc.VET and saved as 1997_cetspark_0001_VEMAF, and then you smoothed...?

( I'm on a MacBook right now, later tonite I'll switch to a Windows PC )

[Tinbender59]

That is correct joecar

I think???