New member looking for some input on tune

[izcain]

Hi guys,
So I have been studying and reading thru here (Reading the trans tutorial, reviewing older posts) and I was wondering if I could get your guys opinion on this tune and will be a safe bet to start with on the 04 GMC Denali out in the garage. Just looking to firm up the shifts for starters and wanted to get opinions before flashing it as I dont want to hurt anything.

I removed 50 percent of the tm and upped the pressure 10% and shortened the shift times to .250........ Right now without this tune the shift is very lazy. Has a fresh trans in it and I would like it to last!

I wanted to work on this first then start tweaking the engine settings.

Thanks for any input guys!

17677

[joecar]

So the vehicle is otherwise stock (mechanically)...?

[izcain]

Yes it is stock right now.

[izcain]

Would I be better to do something else instead since it is stock?

Just looking to have firm positive shifts nothing gear banging. Was also planning on installing the corvette servo also for a little bit more.

Thought I would start here before changing anything.

[joecar]

I'm still looking at it.

[izcain]

No problem, thank you for taking a look!

Just trying to learn.

[izcain]

Just wanted to check in and see if anyone had a chance to take a look and if what I am doing is going in the right direction.

[joecar]

I'm slowly taking a look (I got family in the hospital so we've been spending most of our time there)...

I'll take a closer look today (sorry it's taking so long).

[izcain]

I'm sorry to hear that! I hope they will be doing better! Family is the most important thing!

[joecar]

I'm making various edits to your tune file (shift, pressure, shift time, PE Enable...)...

you will need to install the latest software (to open .ctz files): Update-Oct-28-2014 (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?24830-Update-Oct-28-2014)

I'm editing your WOT shift points because they are upside-down...

[izcain]

I'm making various edits to your tune file (shift, pressure, shift time, PE Enable...)...

you will need to install the latest software (to open .ctz files): Update-Oct-28-2014 (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?24830-Update-Oct-28-2014)

I'm editing your WOT shift points because they are upside-down...


I believe I installed these updates already........

The Tune I posted other then changes that I listed was 100 stock as pulled from the vehicle, I am curious.............. I noticed the pe mode enable and shift issues, is this something that is normal for a stock engine tune for the lq4?

The pe mode looked like it would hardly ever be achieved unless you were into the throttle hard and so it seemed like it would make quite the difference moving that?

I didn't touch the wot shift points so it was just making me wonder why they would be upside down?

Just wondering if you have seen this in the stock files alot or if I have something someone may have messed with at sometime (unknown to me and I purchased it from the original owner whom said they had never done anything to their knowledge)

Thank you very much for taking the time to show me a few things! I am trying to read and research and learn as much as I can!

[joecar]

Truck files are usually like that, stock.

[joecar]

See attached, try it and let me know:

[izcain]

Ok so I was just wondering if you could explain some of the changes you did just so i can understand what it is doing. I noticed that the downshifts on all gears you have set to 100% tps? Wouldn't this force the trans to hold the gear? I noticed the stock tune had 100 percent but only on the 4-3 downshift.

Also if im understanding this correctly when you also change the part throttle shift zeroed out this is effectively taking all the softening of the shifts out on part throttle also? meaning the pcm purposely was softening them and now it will be mainly controlled by the acual shift pressures and times set up in the other tables?

Thank you for taking the time to look this over and give me some input! I will get this loaded here in a little bit (as soon as the broken cluster arrives fixed) and I will run a log and go from there.

[joecar]

Which table id's (I have to look at the table to answer your questions)...?

Basically I did this:
- allowed PE to enable easier (see 2001/2002 Camaro tune);
- set PE to provide sensible fueling rather then overfueling;
- set the WOT upshift/downshift MPH points to same values as the 100% TP cell in the PT upshift/downshift tables;
- introduced 3->4 upshift/downshift at higher TP values (was inhibited, but you should be able to have it);
- reduced the shift times;
- increased the shift pressures;
- some other things (I would have to do a compare).

[izcain]

Tables D0962, D0961, and D0960 are the table I was wondering about. It is showing that it will not downshift without 100 percent throttle? Just wondering if there is some other table with will help with downshifting? (want to make sure it still has a passing gear without having to go WOT)

Here is the stock tune as pulled just for some comparisons if you like.

17743

I understand how pe will now activate (or should) and that it will be not overly rich but looks on the safe side

Under high load situations beings that it was not activating pe I wonder if it was really lean? guess without a log we wouldn't know I just cant seem to wrap my head around why they would not want it to go into that table under hard accel with a vehicle so heavy.

Also the 3-4 table D0903 table I am puzzled by.

[joecar]

D0960,1,2:
if not set to 100% these will interfere with the PT upshift/downshift tables and the WOT MPH parameters...
i.e. it will not shift when you think it should, and vice-versa;
if you look at the PT downshift tables you will see that when TP moves horizontally across the curve (toward the right) that you will get passing gear.

[joecar]

D0903:

old table: at 62% TP, the 3->4 shift was effectively disabled (146 mph).

new table: at any throttle you still get the 3->4 shift (should be able to achieve 120 mph).

[joecar]

I forgot:

you have to set the speed limiter (in the Speedo section) to 120 mph.

[joecar]

D0960,1,2:

See this: When-throttle-kickdown-is-not-set-at-100 (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?7388-When-throttle-kickdown-is-not-set-at-100)

[izcain]

Ok I understand. Thank you for showing me the graph!

[izcain]

Soon as I get this wideband issue sorted out I will post some logs and start a new thread about doing further improvements. I'm thinking there is a bit of mileage and power to be had in the timing tables since they look extremely restricted.

Some areas actually show negative amount! Jeesh

[joecar]

Look at the HO/LO spark timing tables in the 2002 Camaro file.

[izcain]

Look at the HO/LO spark timing tables in the 2002 Camaro file.

Thats what I was looking at as well as other ones. Seems like that is a pretty big margin from areas of 2.7's, 5, and 10's in the stock tune to areas of 18's, 22s, and 25's in the camaro tune.



Over the last several days I have been working on trying to do a dry run of the calc.vet setup also and I now have it to where it will plot a log and show on the tables but it will not show any numbers I can use in the table it just has the cells highlighted that it hit but only displays the number of times it hit that cell so I am a little lost now. Is it because I am using logs that I am finding from the forums and not logs that I have made with the pid list that is setup?

Also it is showing that I need to go into the areas to filter out certain things and I was able to filter out all items it asks for except for the ext.w02.Lamba values since I dont even see this tab.......

[joecar]

Thats what I was looking at as well as other ones. Seems like that is a pretty big margin from areas of 2.7's, 5, and 10's in the stock tune to areas of 18's, 22s, and 25's in the camaro tune.Is the vehicle a 2004 Denali with an LQ4 or LQ9...? Either of these should be able the run similar ignition timing to the LS1 Camaro... they all use the same cam (part #12561721 196/207 116 .467/.479).



Over the last several days I have been working on trying to do a dry run of the calc.vet setup also and I now have it to where it will plot a log and show on the tables but it will not show any numbers I can use in the table it just has the cells highlighted that it hit but only displays the number of times it hit that cell so I am a little lost now. Is it because I am using logs that I am finding from the forums and not logs that I have made with the pid list that is setup?
Look at the map toolbar buttons... you have n clicked... click on x-bar (x with bar above it). Post screenshots.



Also it is showing that I need to go into the areas to filter out certain things and I was able to filter out all items it asks for except for the ext.w02.Lamba values since I dont even see this tab.......On the PIDs data tab, do you have EXT.WO2LAM1 selected...? Post screenshot.

[izcain]

Awesome I will look into that right now. I was able to finally get the rig back on the road and loaded the tune. I am definitely liking this! the shifting is not harsh at all but firmed up quite a bit and much improved. The 2-3 is still the softest part but I am thinking I am pretty happy with it right now since it is no where near as bad as it was before. It used to be you could climb a hill on the highway while accelerating and really feel the lag between 2-3 and now it is pretty much not there anymore!

Overall I think this was a big jump in the right direction right off the bat IMO

I took a log of the ride around. I dont have my wideband in yet but maybe this will provide a little more insight on where the tune should start out with. If I am understanding all of this I see that it seems like the pcm is commanding extra fuel most of the time. Always seems to be in positive amounts. Also looks like I dont really get much knock at all.

For the record yes this is a 04 LQ4 denali and I only run 92 octane from around here. Also since I just purchased it I went thru it so it has a full tune up and all filters changed as well as cleaned the MAF. Just not sure if the 02's are working well since it does have high miles on the rig as a whole (new transmission and other items)


................. Just changed the n to X and wow that really changes things for me. Things seem to be getting more clear on how this is done. Now its not a fog but more of a thick mist lol. So if im understanding this right the pcm is taking the value that the VE table has and also adding the additional to make itself happy and the end result is the value for that corresponding cell? Hence why you would copy the cells and paste them into the tune? Just want to make sure I am understanding this fully before proceeding.

Joecar you rock man! Thank you so much for the help so far!

[izcain]

17762

Here is a screen shot of using the LTFT and I believe running the auto ve

17763

Also here is the spark table for sd. Let me know if I am getting this close to right lol.

Also I looked and I did not have the EXT.W02LAM1 selected...... I do now though.

[joecar]

2->3 shift: to firm this up a little:
- lower the 2->3 Shift Torque Reduction curve in the area where you feel the "softness".
- lower the 2->3 Shift Time curve, set it to 0.2 seconds.

[joecar]

More info, see post #4 here: Summary-Notes (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes&p=127353&viewfull=1#post127353)

When running MAF, PCM uses VE during throttle transients when rpm is below B0120 (4000 rpm) or when MAF has failed, otherwise it uses MAF (for non-transient, and above B0120).

[izcain]

More info, see post #4 here: Summary-Notes (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes&p=127353&viewfull=1#post127353)

When running MAF, PCM uses VE during throttle transients when rpm is below B0120 (4000 rpm) or when MAF has failed, otherwise it uses MAF (for non-transient, and above B0120).

So with the maf enabled I would be fine making adjustments to the ve table at the under 4k range (once my wideband is installed) but after that I would need to disable the maf before changing anything in ve above 4k rpms?

[izcain]

I may just take an additional 10 percent off the whole 2nd gear TR table since it feels softer then all the other shifts at all ranges. It shifts much more firm then before but just a touch more and I think it would be just about right for now. That way all the gears will shift the same. Ill shorten the shift times also and try it out again. Although I was also thinking about installing a better apply servo (corvette setup) so maybe I should leave it alone until I get that installed because I have heard that this will take up additional slack and make it shift that much better.

Does that log make sense to you as far as me having the correct pids selected? Just curious.

I will read thru the summary notes again tonight! Thanks for the link!

[joecar]

So with the maf enabled I would be fine making adjustments to the ve table at the under 4k range (once my wideband is installed) but after that I would need to disable the maf before changing anything in ve above 4k rpms?Since VE is used during transients (and under 4K rpm), you will not see contributions from VE (since they will be culled out by the map's transient filter)...

when you do Calc.VET, you are creating a new VE to start from (calculating it from the corrected MAF)...

so to fine tune the VE you will then have to disable the MAF

( and either use a combination of LTFT/wideband (Calc.MAFT), or disable CL/LTFT/STFT/SOL and use only wideaband (modified Calc.MAFT) ).

[joecar]

Corvette servo (or other larger area servo, e.g. like Sonnax) is required...!!!

[joecar]

Denali improved shifting.efi (https://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17761&d=1417498175)

Which wideband are you using...? Post your calc_pids.txt file.

You have the correct pids other than need to limit the pid channels to no more than 24.

[izcain]

Which wideband are you using...? Post your calc_pids.txt file.

You have the correct pids other than need to limit the pid channels to no more than 24.

Right now the only wideband I have is my FAST dual wideband setup that I use on my carbed race car. I have it wired up to the v2 now though through the AD1 port and I can turn on the analog output on the wideband so I am thinking this will do ok. I was thinking about just putting it in the rear o2 sensor location.

I had a lc-1 setup but that went with my supercharged Cts-V when I sold it. Wish I would have pulled it out now! I think this will do ok though.

[izcain]

Here are the pids

I believe I have the correct pids selected to read the wideband once I turn it on.

It was saying something about the correction factor of 10 and I was reading on here that the PLX uses the same correction factor?

[joecar]

Right now the only wideband I have is my FAST dual wideband setup that I use on my carbed race car. I have it wired up to the v2 now though through the AD1 port and I can turn on the analog output on the wideband so I am thinking this will do ok. I was thinking about just putting it in the rear o2 sensor location.

We'll need to edit calc_pids.txt to get Lambda from the FAST wideband.

[joecar]

Locate this file: My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration\calc_pids.txt and post it here.

[izcain]

Ok hope this works.

Just wondering also what pids I should be not logging to make it the 24?

Tonight I also just went ahead and removed 10 more percent from the tm for 2-3 and also shortened the times up as we talked about and I think that it is now just about perfect for now. It is nice and positive but not to harsh. I am still going to install that servo sometime shortly though.

Looking forward to maybe getting everything tied in and doing some rounds of ve on sunday if I can get it figured out before then.

I guess I am still a little lost as far as the pids.txt part of things. Thank you for taking a look and giving me a hand. I am going to owe you!

After reviewing both the lq4 timing map and the lq9 map (silverado SS) I see some slightly more aggressive changes in the timing tables (some spots the lq4 was more but overall the lq9 looked nicer) but fueling was identical for the 2 SS maps I reviewed. Although my understanding from reading is that the ve should be adjusted first before timing correct?

I am assuming that mostly the tune is making up for the 20-30 hp difference between the two engines since I would think that the very slight bump in compression is not going to net a ton.

[joecar]

To reduce the pid channel count to 24 (for purpose of tuning/calculating MAF and/or VE), remove these pids:
GM.AFR
GM.IAC

Also, in case your wideband supports serial comms, select this pid (it is for free, zero pid channels):
EXT.WO2LAM1.

ALSO:
do not use CALC.BEN_F1 for tuning VE and/or MAF, but rather use CALC.WO2BEN, see next post below.

[joecar]

In your calc_pids.txt, edit CLC-00-110 as follows (to use your FAST wideband):

replace this:


*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1}"


with this:


*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{CALC.AFR_F1}/14.7"


CLC-00-110 defines the calculated pid for CALC.WO2BEN.


Question: does your FAST wideband assume that stoich AFR is 14.7...?

[izcain]

Yes I believe it does but we are running up to 10 percent ethanol or e10 out of the pump here so is there some sort of correction I can put in?

[izcain]

So I removed the calc.benf1 and also the IAC and Commanded AFR so my pid count is now 24.

I also changed the calc pids for the FAST.

[joecar]

Yes I believe it does but we are running up to 10 percent ethanol or e10 out of the pump here so is there some sort of correction I can put in?
Leave the FAST wideband as is (we ignore AFR anyway... we use Lambda and EQR instead).

In your tune set B3601 to 14.2 for E10.

[izcain]

Oh ok. So this will make the pcm look for 14.2 to be happy?

[izcain]

Do I need to rescale the MAF the same amount of percent before beginning? or is this done later?

This will change my fuel trims now wont it in the current tune?

[joecar]

Oh ok. So this will make the pcm look for 14.2 to be happy?CL will trim to stoich (EQR 1.00) which is "defined" to be AFR 14.2.

PCM uses B3601 to calculate the required fuelmass from the calculated airmass (derived from MAF and/or VE).

[joecar]

Do I need to rescale the MAF the same amount of percent before beginning? or is this done later?

This will change my fuel trims now wont it in the current tune?Try with current MAF table...

or if you see a consistent say 6% LTFT on each bank, then increase the MAF table by 6%...

and either way see how you go.

If you did not bump up the MAF table, you will soon see that you didn't in the correction map.

[joecar]

So I removed the calc.benf1 and also the IAC and Commanded AFR so my pid count is now 24.

I also changed the calc pids for the FAST.Ok, pid channel count is now 24.

[joecar]

Edited posts #47, #48, #49... refresh your web browser.

:)

[izcain]

ok cool!

I reset the 3601 to 14.2 now.

It says selected pids 30 but the selected channels is 24 so this would be correct then?

[izcain]

Try with current MAF table...

or if you see a consistent say 6% LTFT on each bank, then increase the MAF table by 6%...

and either way see how you go.

If you did not bump up the MAF table, you will soon see that you didn't in the correction map.

When I was first logging I noticed that it was giving about +4-6 percent most of the time. Just wondering since I didnt want to make it worse right off the bat.

I guess this is where I am getting a little foggy again. The Maf would only be above 4k rpms though correct?........ Ok I think I understand now, you are talking about after a few rounds of calc.ve........

[joecar]

...

It says selected pids 30 but the selected channels is 24 so this would be correct then?Yes, correct;

some pids occupy 1 channel, other pids occupy 2 channels, and CALC and EXT pids occupy zero channels.

Also note: a CALC pid can be added to a log after it has been taken (as long as the actual pids it uses have been logged).

[izcain]

Oh ok I understand! Seems like once you get the pids setup things will go a lot better lol

I will flash it again with the proper stoich and try to get a log with the wideband and see about doing my first round and see how far out it is.

[izcain]

I know this doesnt pertain to the fuel tables but do you normally zero out of the burst spark timing when tuning? or do you leave them alone?

Also would I be better to change the O2 to 450mV?

[joecar]

I usually leave the spark tables alone... are you seeing KR...?

Yes, set O2 switch points to 450 mV (later tunes from GM seem to do this).

[izcain]

no Im not seeing any kr but I believe the spark tables are very lazy. I think I will copy in the ls1 Camaro spark tables after getting the fuel a little more in order and see what happens.

Just seems like the lazy timing map makes for a boggy type of feel that's all.

I will look at the o2 switch points and see.

[5.7ute]

I normally zero out burst knock during the airmass tuning phase, then tune burst knock or use stock values. My reasoning behind this is that while the VE table is taking shape, burst knock may occur due to the higher cell values we use for the base tune. Smoothing between runs helps stop this occurring, but I would rather take it right out of the equation from the start.

[izcain]

So I hope this will be an ok start for a log. Do you guys agree that it could use more fuel in areas?

I didnt zero out the burst knock yet however I did not notice any kr to speak of

Saw the fuel trims go as high as 7.8 positive. They were positive for most all of the log.

Hopefully there will be some information in the log that we can use. I think I have the wideband working correctly I just put it in the rear o2.

o2's are in fact set to 450
I guess I am still lost since I thought by changing the commanded air fuel to 14.2 afr that the pcm would try to acheive that but the wideband showed 14.5-.7 for most all of the log.

I tried to run a calc.vet but I come up with some numbers that are more then the ve table but others that are less. Guess im still a little lost.

Here is a screen shot of it. Maybe someone can tell me what im doing wrong?

[izcain]

Maybe this would be the wrong way to go about this but what about just adding a small amount (1-3%) to the lower rpm portion (under 4k rpms) to get the ltft a little more in line? Working in small increments until ltft's are closer?
Say 1 percent under 50 kpa and 2 percent about 50 kpa and the blend the middle a touch. Just ideas I was wondering about.

Another thing I was wondering about in the log was that when pe mode activated it still didn't pull it down to the 12:1 afr even with positive ltft's so would I be correct in thinking that the pcm just isn't giving it the amount of fuel it is asking for to begin with? Maybe I just didn't stay in it long enough since it was a shorty little burst just cause I wanted to see what the readout would be on the afr meter.

[joecar]

Yes, just minorly tweak portions of the VE table (rule of thumb: if Calc.VET produces a good smooth MAF with correct IFR data, and the produced VE table is dubious, then make your own adjustments to VE... you will eventually have to isolate VE (disable MAF) and tune it using Calc.MAFT.


Also, did you remember to apply the transient filter before applying the maps to the tune (as shown in the Calc,VET thread)...?

If the AFR (or Lambda) did not reach the PE commanded richness level, then either the air model is still not right, or PE ramp in is too slow, or the wideband is not reading correctly

( make sure you use Lambda from the wideband and avoid AFR ).

[izcain]

I am thinking the pe ramp is just a bit slow. It did go and I was able to achieve 13.2 for a very short period. I didnt really stay in it though to find out.

I fallowed the filters on the thread.

I added 1 percent to the lower kpa section and 2 percent to the larger kpa section and blended the middle to keep it smooth and I noticed that the LTFT's went to 1-1.5% at lower rpms and only up to about 4 percent in the higher rpms. I think a touch more and I will just leave it alone and call it good. Then start tinkering on the spark tables.

Then I suppose I would have to relook at the fuel again once I touch spark?

[izcain]

The Afr appeared to be working correctly. It was constant 14.4-6 for most all throttle levels until the pe activated.

[statesman]

If the AFR (or Lambda) did not reach the PE commanded richness level, then either the air model is still not right, or PE ramp in is too slow, or the wideband is not reading correctly

OR... maybe it's because he's plugged his wideband sensor into his rear o2 sensor bung.

[joecar]

izcain, do you have cats on the vehicle...?

[izcain]

izcain, do you have cats on the vehicle...?

Yes it still has the factory cats and exhaust on. Maybe cats are changing afr for the readout on the wideband?

Is the rear o2 not a viable place to put the wideband? Or can I do this but make the difference by turning off that cat protection?

[izcain]

So I thought I would give an update. I have slowly been creeping up on the fuel table and am almost complete with that side now I believe. I filled up after running thru a tank of fuel and I had to double check my math since I had a hard time believing it. Before messing with tune it was about 15 and this last tank I have a hand calculated 18.59 with an extremely light foot! I have yet to add much timing (non to be exact yet) but I am very happy with the improvements so far!

[joecar]

Thanks for the update :cheers:

[izcain]

Thanks for the help!

I think with some timing added to the table I may be able to squeak a bit more. It would be awesome to be able to knock down 20's out on the highway!