correct pid text/expressions for NTK AFRM

[camaro10]

Im having trouble trying to figure this out. Tuning my 2010 ls3 Camaro. The formulas ntk provides are if the stoich is 14.7 or 14.55? Im using pump gas with up to 10% ethanol (14.2 stoich). I want to tune in lambda which is actual afr/stoich of fuel being used? Here is the pid list I have from the tuner which screwed along far too long not responding to emails etc which is why Im going to do this myself starting out as a maf only tune and than maybe doing the ve tables as well. The tuner just set the B3671 to 14.55. What do I need to change to make this right? Also I can only find commanded AFR for the car not lambda. Even after validating pids.

[joecar]

Hello and Welcome to the forum :cheers:


You CALC.BEN_NTK* formulas are incorrect... you should be dividing by commanded AFR or commanded Lambda...

define your BEN like this: {CALC.LAM_NTK1.Lambda} / {SAE.LAMBDA}


BTW: you need to append at least 2 blank lines at the end of the calc_pids.txt file.


Please post your NTK user manual pdf here.

[joecar]

Lambda is independent of the fuel's stoich AFR... (i.e. CL is Lambda 1.00 and PE should be around Lambda 1.175).

[joecar]

Also your CALC.AFR_NTK2 pid is wrong, it is referencing EXT.AD1 (by referencing CLC-00-003).

[camaro10]

The tune is currently set to 14.55 for stoich. So really I think the ben factor is lambda the way its wrote from him. Are you referring to eq ratio? The car is commanding .85 lambda in pe. I didn't think any of the pids are correct either, thanks for the Welcome. Hopefully I can learn a thing or two!. Ive bought the master efi tuner book and a book on fuel management from greg banish also one of his dvds. Lots of good info but all with hpt.

[joecar]

Try the attached calc_pids.txt file...

select these pids: EXT.AD1/2, SAE.LAMBDA, CALC.NTK1/2

use these pids for tuning: CALC.NTK1.BEN

use these pids for viewing only: CALC.NTK1.AFR (they will be incorrect because your fuel has stoich 14.2).

[joecar]

B3671 should be set to 14.2 (your fuel is E10).

[camaro10]

To correct this do I need to create a new expression for afr for e10 than divide that by 14.2(stoich in tune) to get lambda? I cannot get the commanded lambda pid to work on my car. Not sure why the car is in storage now but I want to have this all set up ready to go come spring time. I did update the firmware etc and tried to validate the pids and I could still not get the commanded lambda to work.

[joecar]

Note: use Lambda for tuning; do not use AFR for tuning

( set B3671 to the correct stoich AFR of your fuel )

[camaro10]

Ok Thanks I just looked at the new pids. Do I need to correct the voltage,afr, and lambda values in the new pid list. This is the ntk unit that replaced the afx. I also see that your still dividing by 14.55 for lambda. Wouldn't that be 14.2 instead? So the only reason to create a new expression would be to get an accurate afr reading for e10? Otherwise I can use the provided formulas from ntk to figure out lambda? Thanks for the help! Much appreciated

[joecar]

You only need to correct the analog voltage if it is not correct... measure with a DMM set to 20VDC range, compare to what the pid EXT.AD1 says... if they're the same then there's no need to correct.

Did you assume the 0.5V correction (subtracting it in the calc pid)...?


The NTK assumes stoich AFR is 14.55, so you divide by 14.55 to obtain Lambda.


Post your NTK user manual pdf (I'm only going by memory that it assumes stoich is 14.55).

EDIT: THE NTK USER MANUAL IS WRONG, IT SHOULD USE 14.7 AS STOICH

( THEREFORE USE 14.7 INSTEAD OF 14.55 IN YOUR CALC PIDS )

[camaro10]

Here is the manual. I did not test anything just used what he sent me. I bought a cam package from him and the wb02. I already had efi live. He sent me a base tune and went from there. Only problem is the car had a dead spot if id snap on it from idle and an occasional backfire. It dynod 458 on a mustang with a local tune shops tune which is worse for driveability than what I started with. So I decided if I want it done right I needed to tune it myself. What are you referring to as far as testing voltage? The expression provided by ntk is for gas with a 14.7afr for stoich I believe. If I want to see my afr for e10 would it need to be a new expression? Your saying since the expression has a -.5 in in it so voltage range is still 0-5v?

[camaro10]

So if I test voltage and it matches the scan tool I can use the expressions they provide and I only need a new expression for AFR if I want to know what the afr for e10 is if I understand this correctly?

[joecar]

Your equation is incorrect...

the correct equation (according to the NTK manual) is: AFR = V*2.75+7.625

(plug in 0.5V and 4.5V and you'll see AFR 9 and 20 respectively).


I updated the calc_pids.txt file (see attached)...

if you need a voltage correction offset, then add/subtract it from the {EXT.AD1} and {EXT.AD2} in CLC-00-003 and CLC-00-004, for example (see red ink):


*CLC-00-003
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}-0.2"
AFR 8.0 18.0 .3 "{CALC.NTK1.V}*2.75+7.625"
LAM .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK1.AFR}/14.55"
BEN .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK1.LAM}/{SAE.LAMBDA}"


EDIT: THE NTK USER MANUAL IS WRONG, IT SHOULD USE 14.7 AS STOICH

( THEREFORE USE 14.7 INSTEAD OF 14.55 IN YOUR CALC PIDS )

The calc_pids.txt file should be edited accordingly.

[camaro10]

I'm seeing {(vout-0.5)× 2.75}+9 for the gasoline formula in the manual I posted?

[joecar]

I'm seeing {(vout-0.5)× 2.75}+9 for the gasoline formula in the manual I posted?
Ah, silly me :doh2:, I should have realized, that simplifies to this: AFR = V*2.75+7.625

[camaro10]

Any idea how I can get the commanded lambda pid to work? How did you figure that out? Just trying to learn how this is done and if I use the ntk afr pid is that accurate for e10? In the book they say the display is set for 14.7-stoich. Than below in the example they give they say stoich is 14.55. But if I go on excel and type in the voltages, lambda, values etc the formula comes out to the one ntk provides when the b3601 is at 14.7 within a few decimal points and 14.55 is quite different. The book is pretty misleading

[camaro10]

or do I take the lambda pid and multiply that by 14.2 for actual afr

[joecar]

or do I take the lambda pid and multiply that by 14.2 for actual afr
Yes, if you really want to see the actual AFR...

when you see AFR 14.2 you know you're probably in CL... but (from your meory) what AFR should you see when PE is active...?

It is simpler to ignore AFR and just use Lambda (CL is 1.00, NA PE is 0.86, boost PE is 0.76).

( also note that EQR (equivalence ratio) is 1/Lambda )

[joecar]

Any idea how I can get the commanded lambda pid to work? How did you figure that out? Just trying to learn how this is done and if I use the ntk afr pid is that accurate for e10? In the book they say the display is set for 14.7-stoich. Than below in the example they give they say stoich is 14.55. But if I go on excel and type in the voltages, lambda, values etc the formula comes out to the one ntk provides when the b3601 is at 14.7 within a few decimal points and 14.55 is quite different. The book is pretty misleading
You mean SAE.LAMBDA...? What happens when you log it...?

If SAE.LAMBDA does not work, you may have to use E38.AFRATIO_DMA... and we'll have to edit this into your calc pids.

Also try logging GM.EQIVRATIO.

[joecar]

SAE.LAMBDA should work.

[camaro10]

The E38.AFRATIO_DMA works as that is the one I was currently using. The SAE.LAMBDA if iirc it said it wasn't valid with my car and didn't work at all. I thought I tried the GM.EQIVRATIO too and same thing.

[camaro10]

I read the afx manual and the afrm manual today and that's why I say the afrm is misleading. The afx says the display stoich is 14.57 and they use that in there example for lambda aswell. The afrm says the display is 14.7 but yet for lambda they say 14.55 is stoich so Im not sure which one it is. Like I said on the excel program for the voltage offset expression to match the B3601 the formula they provide, b3601 comes out to 14.7. 14.55 is different

[camaro10]

Yes, if you really want to see the actual AFR...

when you see AFR 14.2 you know you're probably in CL... but (from your meory) what AFR should you see when PE is active...?

It is simpler to ignore AFR and just use Lambda (CL is 1.00, NA PE is 0.86, boost PE is 0.76).

( also note that EQR (equivalence ratio) is 1/Lambda )

12.395 using the calc pids I had which was .85 in PE assuming stoich was 14.55

[camaro10]

Here is a log and tune and pid list if that helps

[joecar]

I see E38.AFRATIO_DMA...

Were you able to log SAE.LAMBDA at all...?

[joecar]

If SAE.LAMBDA does not work, then you have to edit calc_pids.txt as follows:



*CLC-00-003
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}"
AFR 8.0 18.0 .3 "{CALC.NTK1.V}*2.75+7.625"
LAM .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK1.AFR}/14.55"
BEN .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK1.AFR}/{E38.AFRATIO_DMA}"

*CLC-00-004
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD2}"
AFR 8.0 18.0 .3 "{CALC.NTK2.V}*2.75+7.625"
LAM .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK2.AFR}/14.55"
BEN .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK2.AFR}/{E38.AFRATIO_DMA}"



EDIT: THE NTK USER MANUAL IS WRONG, IT SHOULD USE 14.7 AS STOICH

( THEREFORE USE 14.7 INSTEAD OF 14.55 IN YOUR CALC PIDS )

The calc_pids.txt file should be edited accordingly.

[camaro10]

I see E38.AFRATIO_DMA...

Were you able to log SAE.LAMBDA at all...?

I don't believe so. I know the dyno shop that tuned the car last said this tune had a afr of 11.9 in pe. But than again I don't know how their wb02 was set up. Thanks for all your help I will give this a try when the car comes out and see what happends!

[camaro10]

I have to multiply the lambda by 14.2 than divided the commanded afr though right so the ben factor would be correct if that's what the stoich in the tune is set too? Im going to call ntk this week and find out what stoich is exactly with this model.

[camaro10]

I need to set the stoich in the tune to 14.2 first.
Try to get SAE.LAMBDA to work
Otherwise use the AFRS for the ben factor?

[joecar]

I have to multiply the lambda by 14.2 than divided the commanded afr though right so the ben factor would be correct if that's what the stoich in the tune is set too? Im going to call ntk this week and find out what stoich is exactly with this model.

No... the NTK assumes 14.55... so you have to divide NTK's AFR equation by 14.55 to obtain Lambda.

The stoich in the tunefile and the wideband's stoich are not coupled together (they are unrelated).


EDIT: THE NTK USER MANUAL IS WRONG, IT SHOULD USE 14.7 AS STOICH

( THEREFORE USE 14.7 INSTEAD OF 14.55 IN YOUR CALC PIDS )

NTK's user manual assumed 14.55 by mistake (I don't know what they were thinking);
it has now been confirmed that NTK assumes 14.7 for stoich.

[joecar]

I need to set the stoich in the tune to 14.2 first.
Try to get SAE.LAMBDA to work
Otherwise use the AFRS for the ben factor?Yes correct.

[camaro10]

If the tune is set to 14.55 as seen in my log for CL. Than by changing that to 14.2 than wont it just command 14.2 in CL? So if I use the NTK AFR which assumes stoich is 14.55/commanded afr, my BEN Factor would be inaccurate by 2.46% to start with wouldn't it? This is where I get confused which is why I wish sae.lambda would work

[camaro10]

I understand it wont matter if I can get lambda to work than no big deal and I can multiply it by 14.2 to get my actual afr,but when using afr as a reference. That's where I don't understand how that works when ntks formula (14.55) stoich/14.2 is going to be currect.

[camaro10]

I have to multiply the lambda by 14.2 than divided the commanded afr though right so the ben factor would be correct if that's what the stoich in the tune is set too? Im going to call ntk this week and find out what stoich is exactly with this model.

What I was saying is I multiply the lambda by 14.2 for e10. That is the corrected afr than Id divide that corrected afr by the e38 afr? since the car will command 14.2 after the change is made for stoich

[camaro10]

Or am I thinking way to hard and that afr is actually correct and stoich depends on the fuel e00 e10 etc.

[joecar]

If the tune is set to 14.55 as seen in my log for CL. Than by changing that to 14.2 than wont it just command 14.2 in CL? So if I use the NTK AFR which assumes stoich is 14.55/commanded afr, my BEN Factor would be inaccurate by 2.46% to start with wouldn't it? This is where I get confused which is why I wish sae.lambda would workIn your tune set stoich AFR to match your fuel (14.2), regardless of the wideband's stoich.

Since your NTK wideband assumes 14.55, the Lambda calc pid divides by 14.55, regardless of what the tune's stoich is.

The tune's stoich and wideband's stoich are unrelated and uncoupled to each other.

EDIT: THE NTK USER MANUAL IS WRONG, IT SHOULD USE 14.7 AS STOICH

( THEREFORE USE 14.7 INSTEAD OF 14.55 IN YOUR CALC PIDS )

NTK's user manual incorrectly assumes 14.55 for stoich
it has now been confirmed that NTK uses 14.7 for stoich.

[camaro10]

In your tune set stoich AFR to match your fuel (14.2), regardless of the wideband's stoich.

Since your NTK wideband assumes 14.55, the Lambda calc pid divides by 14.55, regardless of what the tune's stoich is.

The tune's stoich and wideband's stoich are unrelated and uncoupled to each other.


This makes sense to me only if I can use lambda.. If I use AFRs for BEN factor ex. NTKAFR/E38AFRATIO.. How is that correct when really the NTK stoich afr will read 14.55 and the car will be 14.2. This means 14.55/14.2=1.0246.. Doesn't that mean itll be off by 2.5%?

[joecar]

What I was saying is I multiply the lambda by 14.2 for e10. That is the corrected afr than Id divide that corrected afr by the e38 afr? since the car will command 14.2 after the change is made for stoichAh, ok, I see what you're saying, yes you are correct ( sorry I'm being a bit thick :bangin: )...

the BEN portion of the calc pid should multiply by (14.2/14.55), see below;


*CLC-00-003
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}"
AFR 8.0 18.0 .3 "{CALC.NTK1.V}*2.75+7.625"
LAM .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK1.AFR}/14.55"
BEN .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK1.AFR}/{E38.AFRATIO}*14.2/14.55"

*CLC-00-004
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD2}"
AFR 8.0 18.0 .3 "{CALC.NTK2.V}*2.75+7.625"
LAM .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK2.AFR}/14.55"
BEN .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK2.AFR}/{E38.AFRATIO}*14.2/14.55"


And of course set your tune's stoich to 14.2.

EDIT: THE NTK USER MANUAL IS WRONG, IT SHOULD USE 14.7 AS STOICH

( THEREFORE USE 14.7 INSTEAD OF 14.55 IN YOUR CALC PIDS )

NTK's user manual incorrectly assumes 14.55 for stoich
it has now been confirmed that NTK uses 14.7 for stoich.

[camaro10]

After all the tune is at 14.55 for stoich now and the E38AFRATIO reads 14.54 in my logs for CL

[camaro10]

Ah, ok, I see what you're saying
( sorry I'm being a bit thick :bangin: )...

the BEN portion of the calc pid should multiply by (14.2/14.55), see below;


*CLC-00-003
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}"
AFR 8.0 18.0 .3 "{CALC.NTK1.V}*2.75+7.625"
LAM .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK1.AFR}/14.55"
BEN .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK1.AFR}/{E38.AFRATIO}*14.2/14.55"

*CLC-00-004
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD2}"
AFR 8.0 18.0 .3 "{CALC.NTK2.V}*2.75+7.625"
LAM .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK2.AFR}/14.55"
BEN .5 1.5 .4 "{CALC.NTK2.AFR}/{E38.AFRATIO}*14.2/14.55"


And of course set your tune's stoich to 14.2.


Im probably not to good at trying to explain things. I can think but typing them thoughts is a different story lol Awesome, Thank you!

[joecar]

After all the tune is at 14.55 for stoich now and the E38AFRATIO reads 14.54 in my logs for CLYes, set it to 14.2 (to match your fuel, E10)...

and multiply the BEN portion of the calc pid by 14.2/14.55...

i.e. go like this:

({CALC.NTK1.AFR}/14.55) / ({E38.AFRATIO}/14.2)

which simplies to this:

{CALC.NTK1.AFR}/{E38.AFRATIO}*14.2/14.55


EDIT: THE NTK USER MANUAL IS WRONG, IT SHOULD USE 14.7 AS STOICH

( THEREFORE USE 14.7 INSTEAD OF 14.55 IN YOUR CALC PIDS )

NTK's user manual incorrectly assumes 14.55 for stoich
it has now been confirmed that NTK uses 14.7 for stoich.

[camaro10]

will do thanks again

[camaro10]

After pasting these calc pids and trying to select them in the scan tool it says they are invalid

[joecar]

On each invalid pid, do rightclick->More Info, it will show the reason for being invalid... it will mention some dependent pid that also needs to be selected.

Post your new calc_pids.txt file so I can proof read it.

[camaro10]

18346 after reviewing the manual im understanding this unit refers the stoich AFR as 14.7 and that the 14.55 is just an example. I've emailed NGK to confirm this and I'm waiting for a response

[joecar]

18346 after reviewing the manual im understanding this unit refers the stoich AFR as 14.7 and that the 14.55 is just an example. I've emailed NGK to confirm this and I'm waiting for a responseThat is very poor form on their part (their tech writer was an idiot, or their hiring manager was an idiot), the user manual has you believe that their wideband assumes 14.55 as the default stoich AFR...

it says "For example, the stoichiometry of gasoline is 14.55..." and then they continue on to show how to calculate lambda... the "for example" part is not the default stoich value, but how to calculate lambda;


when they confirm the real default value, we have to update the equation above.

[camaro10]

Yes I agree that is bullshit. I called the guy multiple times and sent him the same photo I've posted and heard nothing back. Also when I was calibrating the 02 to free air. With it pegged on lean, I decided to check the voltage going to my v2. It should be at 4.5 but it was 4.46 verified by a dvm. Not sure if that is any concern to modify the expression for a offset or not. By leaving the controller stoich set in my calcpids at 14.55. It'll be a smidge rich by about 1% correct? This is frustrating enough that I'm considering a afx or a bmr500.

[camaro10]

I got an email back from ngk, he says stoich is 14.70 and they are revising the manual

[joecar]

Ok, we need to edit the calc_pids.txt to use 14.7...

I'll edit the above posts that show 14.55 to use 14.7 instead.

Thanks for the effort.

[camaro10]

No problem, thanks for the help!