Anybody bored and feel like walking through a tune

[TLKSCHP]

Here is the deal. I must be a slow learner. As you read in my first post I scanned a car and he blew it up because he did take the warning serious. Well I have a new friend that just moved here with a 98 C5 that he paid a shop allot of money to have them install heads, cam, intake, gears and a converter which he had removed because he didn't think he liked it. They charged him $300 for an EFI live tune. They didn't tune anything but gears from what I see. My car is broke so I can't learn on mine. He plans on driving this car to Texas for a professional tune from 21st muscle cars I believe. I would feel better making sure the car is good to drive that far first. We tried to find a shop to weld in a 02 bung but we were shot down by 4 shops so far because it's to low. So with all that said is anyone willing to walk through a basic tune using fuel trims unless it can be done installing the wideband another way.

Here is what he has Patriot stage 2 heads I think, 228/222 588/581 114.5 cam, LS6 intake, Vararam and shorty headers with 3.42 gears.
During WOT it is in knock retard the whole time
The one log during cruise we started off with it cold.
And if anyone is curious no I'm not charging money or claiming great knowledge just trying to learn when the wife will give me a break cause I'm on the CPU. Hopefully Mr. Freeman will log on to this thread if anyone is up to helping. If not I understand, most on here have logged the time to learn this and I respect that.

Here is the 1st WOT log, sorry their short but the streets were kinda busy. also links to the other logs.
http://f5.putfile.com/5/13319572935.png
http://f5.putfile.com/5/13320011788.png

http://f5.putfile.com/5/13319545727.png

[Texas Terminator]

are you sure the knock is real knock? can you actually hear it? does it have the stock injectors? has it been on a dyno with a wbo2? do you have any idea what a/f it's running? have you tried pulling a couple of plugs to see how they are burning? tuning with fuel trims is a royal pita, i wouldn't recommend it. you could try to scale up the upper area of the ve table and see if it helps, it won't be spot on, but it will at least give you direction. get an lc-1, or something like it, and do the auto tune, it works great and is super easy.

if you are determined to drive down here, i don't see any reason you couldn't drive it the way it is, unless there is something mechanical causing the knock. 21st is right across the street from where i work, they have some awesome cars there and could definately steer you in the right direction.

[Tordne]

Looking at the screen shot the KR would appear to be real. You can see the "saw tooth" pattern of the logged KR... As the timing is being put back in you can see that it retards again because of renewed KR. Generally that is an indication of real knock.

False KR usually just gets logged and looks like a slope back to 0 it that makes sense.

[oztracktuning]

My guess is that its terribly lean
as you havent got much timing in it.

[TLKSCHP]

Thanks guys, I was wandering if being lean could be the problem. We really need to get the wideband on it. Is their any way to use one of the front 02 bungs.

[oztracktuning]

My voltages are well over 0.900 even though i tune with a wideband and its steadily at around 12.5-12.8 afr. Much of the time the O2s just for comparison are 0.927v for a 12.6 afr. Im not sure that its very reliable car to car though.

Get it more than rich enough and see if that helps. Then wind more timing into it and see what happens.

[TLKSCHP]

So what would be the proper way to richen it up?

[ToplessTexan]

Is their any way to use one of the front 02 bungs.

You *could* install the WB in the front O2 position and go through the whole AutoVE thing. However, I agree with Terminator that you shouldn't need to fuss with it too much to get to 21st. After all he's not going WOT from KS to TX, right? About all I'd worry with too much (assuming he still has the gears and converter) is the gear scaling stuff and maybe misfire. Would be useful to have the tranny not being squirrely on the trip down. Unless you have reason to believe that things are seriously amiss in the operating regions it *must* to see to get down here (which does not include WOT), I'd be reluctant to change much - sometimes you don't pull the knife out of a stabbing victim right away.

[TLKSCHP]

He won't be going for almost a month. No he had the converter removed but plans on going with a 2800 yank now. He is going to have them do the install. I will have to go through all this on my own soon enough. Planning on a 224/228 581/588 112, I hope that cam will work with the heads i have coming, their milled .030 on a 98 casting.

Ho do most tuners like 21st muscle cars read the A/F, do they weld in a bung?

[joecar]

Until it's tuned, could just make the PE vs RPM table richer.

[Texas Terminator]

Ho do most tuners like 21st muscle cars read the A/F, do they weld in a bung?[/quote]

not unless there is already one there. they will use the sniffer on their dyno.

a 2800 converter sounds a bit small too. you can still have excellent street manners with a bigger one.

[TLKSCHP]

If they use a sniffer out the back how do they get an accurate reading since it has cats?
He had a Fuddle 3200 but he didn't like it. So far that makes about 3 people around here that tried 3200 stalls and could handle it, the other 2 had Vigs.

[Texas Terminator]

If they use a sniffer out the back how do they get an accurate reading since it has cats?


that is something that i always wondered myself, but, it is still pretty damn accurate. someone here, i'm sure, can give you some kind of scientific explanation.

i still think he needs a bigger converter. the 3200's that the other guys have that you are talking about sound about right. it also depends on how the converter is made, some are tighter than others. how big physically was his old converter? if it was fairly small, than it most likely was on the loose side. here's an example, i had a stock converter restalled awhile back to 2800, on the street, you couldn't even tell it was any different, but, if you layed into it really hard, then it would flash up close to the 2800 mark. the larger the converter, the more surface area you have for friction. make sense?

[ringram]

Any spare o2 is used in the oxidation process in the cats (3 way cats)
CO -> CO2, NOx -> no2, HC -> H2O + CO2

I had my WB inline with a tail mounted WB and the differernce was in the order of 0.5:1 reduction. That was with a 12.8:1 commanded

I guess leaner and richer will eat more o2 to burn up the emissions. But others have suggested that 0.5 is a good rule of thumb.

[freemanjc]

TLKSCHP,

Thanks for helping me out with my car the other day. I hope a member in this forum can give you step by step instructions on how to get the air to fuel ratio changed in my car. I will proablly let the car sit unitl the 9th of June and then go down to see the boys at 21st. Let me ask a question in regards to a H/C job. Is it recommended that you upgrade your fuel injectors when doing a H/C install or are the stock injectors just fine.

[ringram]

For stock cam stock injectors are fine.
For the cam you mention above the later model 28lb'ers might still be ok. Best just to keep a close eye on duty cycle and upgrade if required.

As Joecar says you can just adjust your pe vs rpm table to change afr at WOT. The numbers might not even be close but the basic idea of raise the number to lean and lower to enrichen should work. Just keep the table kind of smooth and avoid cliff faced changes between cells. Again you need your wideband to tell you if you move it the right way and if it was far enough.
Just go slow and check and recheck. Keep a backup of the original tune for if you go off the rails.

[Doc]

Stock 98 injectors work fine on my setup. I couldn't imagine going any lower than the TCI 3k stall I have. It doesn't feel really different than stock to me. It sounds as if you need to rig up a LC-1 quick connect setup like mine or Joecar has. I have an LC-1 hardwired in my car and I made up a jig that utilizes the front stock O2 bung and electrical connection. That is I remove the either front stock O2 off the car and plug in the LC-1. The controller has two outputs 1 for the pcm-narrow and 1 for the laptop. Note-You'll need to make adapters for different LSx powered vehicles. I have a friend with a 2k silverado and his connectors were like his dad's 02 Z06 yet another friend w/ a 03 silverado had male square connectors (just the opposite from Fbodies -female). So, if you are waiting to fix your car this would be a relatively inexpensive thing to do and give you the opportunity to learn off of other vehicles.

[TLKSCHP]

Sounds like a good plan, just need to buy my own LC-1 first. I'm currently using the one I'm suppose to permanently install in the 2000 camaro thats getting ready for a 408 install. I think he is having Soundengineer do that tune. As for injectors I noticed my stock internal 98 runs in the 90% range and his never reaches over 85%

[Techfan]

I have a 98 C5 and put the wide band in the right side just above the bend and after the flange. Read looking behind the R/F wheel down as low as I could without going lower than everything else.

[TLKSCHP]

I put an off road X on my C5 and used the rear o2 bung, so it gets a mixture of both banks. Before it broke i was showing 12.9 WOT with the factory tune and all bolt ons.