Improving WB Tune: Large difference in Min/Max + Suggested Values for TC+TF

[2002_z28_six_speed]

Hi,



I have had EFI Live for years but never used it much.


I am trying to tune my truck and I notice massive differences in the min/max on all recorded cells. Even with the filter suggested in the tutorial. I am talking about .800 to 1.2 in the same cell.

Is there a method to tighten up recorded values? I ask because in the past, I used to play a game where I would apply BENS time and time again and it would just overshoot my intended AFR. Flip from too rich to too lean. I never got to the .01 goals in tutorials.


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Also, could anyone suggest TC or TF values for my truck? I still get surging and stalling. I followed the guide posted on the forum but I am just not there yet.
I have a 224 texas speed cam with headers on a LQ4.

I don't expect anyone to do my tuning for me but a roundhouse kick in the right direction would really help out!

{removed tune file from this post due to not being relevant anymore.}

[RADustin]

are you sure you are OL? log STFTs to be sure.



You have way too many PIDS to be high speed- this could be another issue. get your VE spot on, then worry about idle.

[RADustin]

what do you mean by choke? too much air?

There is no reason why RAFIG will not work- unless your VE table is somehow way off. How much RPM fluctuation do you have at idle?

I had major issues with my TF and TC upon decel my engine would literally turn off. I could fudge the idle air flow tables high and it would help, but as soon as the truck learned it's way back down it would be crap again.

Eventually I figured out my issue was in 99 the TF and TC tables looked much different than the 2002 tables. Once I copied over my 99 tables into my tune it brought it within 90% of perfect, I only needed to tweak a little to loose a slight hanging idle.

I mention this because my cam is much larger than yours, and really didn't need much different TF/TC tables from stock- but I do know my rolling airflow is perfect. I also have timing set to idle as strong as possible(right under most vacuum).

If you have changed TF and TC far from stock you may want to back track and revert back to stock and attempt again.

I did also have an issue where a limiter was limiting how much airflow I could add via TC and TF. I can't find this limiter now but I will keep looking to see what I changed. This was the last straw- once I raised that limit my TC and TF were moving as commanded and the engine was running great.

[joecar]

This is the key:


...

Eventually I figured out my issue was in 99 the TF and TC tables looked much different than the 2002 tables. Once I copied over my 99 tables into my tune it brought it within 90% of perfect, I only needed to tweak a little to loose a slight hanging idle.

I mention this because my cam is much larger than yours, and really didn't need much different TF/TC tables from stock- but I do know my rolling airflow is perfect. I also have timing set to idle as strong as possible(right under most vacuum).

If you have changed TF and TC far from stock you may want to back track and revert back to stock and attempt again.

...

[RADustin]

Joe I am loosing my mind looking for the value I changed to allow for more TC+TF.

Do you know where this value is? I remember being out on the road(I tuned my truck during a 3500 mile trip) and finding a 'maximum idle ETC contribution' or something and upping it. Before my TC+TF was getting clipped down.

It would be similar to B4370 but not specifically for a/c. I think it was for commanded TP of 0 or something.

[joecar]

I'll look thru my tune files to see if I can find what you mean.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

I have been doing a lot of work on this and making some progress.

The truck doesn't stall as much anymore. Only sometimes randomly and multiple times in a row. It used to stall going into R and now it doesn't.
Every once and awhile the idle RPM will get batted around a whole bunch and take 30 seconds to settle down. 200 RPM differences.
Sometimes when letting off the gas on a roll the RPMs will come down to idle, bog, and then pop back up.


I reverted some tables back to stock and then added some throttle follower at higher amounts of attack.
Working on trying to find the right cracker values.
Not really sure on the Desired airflow. Tuning with RAFIG still seems to make it worse.
One thing that really bugs me is that when doing a wideband log of 20 minutes or more I will see a max and min in a cell of .8 to 1.1 ben or so. The range of values recorded isn't very tight. Generally tuning with BEN seems to work.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

You know what is weird?
Things will be running great and then every once in awhile the truck just takes a dump. Can't ever figure out why. Then I will walk into a store and come back. Truck runs great. Same weather, same ECT.... Can't figure it out.

[joecar]

Hmmm... Check all the grounds, make sure they have zero voltage drop with engine running.

[RADustin]

what happens when it dies? can you snap shot your log?

does MAP and spark remain the same and it just die off? MAP rise to ambient? spark drop out?

[2002_z28_six_speed]

I've played around with it so much in the last weeks it is hard to know what all has and has not been done.

At this point it rarely dies BUT it almost dies sometimes. Other times I come to a stop and it is perfect. I have finally tracked it down to the spark timing jumping down to almost nothing. No idea why it is. I wish there was a goto list of PIDs to log if you had problem X or something.


18673

[RADustin]

Looks exactly like my issue I had where map ran to ambient and spark fell to crap because of it, along with rpm.


I fixed it with TC and TF. Did you OS swap your truck?

[2002_z28_six_speed]

I wasn't sure if a custom OS was out for this truck. That might help.


How much (max value) were you using? like .80 grams? 1.5 grams?

[statesman]

What injectors are you using?

[2002_z28_six_speed]

LS2 Corvette injectors. Factory OEM Bosch.

[statesman]

You're doing your power enrichment through your commanded fuel in open loop table rather than through the PE tables... why have you got it set up that way?

[joecar]

You're doing your power enrichment through your commanded fuel in open loop table rather than through the PE tables... why have you got it set up that way?He may be doing that from doing the old AutoVE procedure.

I agree with you, he should be doing power enrichment thru the PE table (set EQR 1.175 for NA engine)...

( in OL the active fueling tables are the OLFA table and (when PE activates) the PE table... the richer current operating point/cell is selected from those tables )

[joecar]

I have been doing a lot of work on this and making some progress.

...Ok, something I saw:

you're setup to fail the MAF, but in C6001 the MAF DTC's are set to 2-Trip... you need to change these to 1-Trip or to Non-Emissions, and verify that on engine start you get an immediate MAF DTC...

( if you don't get an immediate MAF DTC (which is the case with 2-Trip), the PCM is still using the MAF (and if the MAF is not physically present the PCM calculates a "sane" value for the MAF and uses that)... so if you intend to run SD it is utmost that you see a MAF DTC )

[joecar]

I've played around with it so much in the last weeks it is hard to know what all has and has not been done.

At this point it rarely dies BUT it almost dies sometimes. Other times I come to a stop and it is perfect. I have finally tracked it down to the spark timing jumping down to almost nothing. No idea why it is. I wish there was a goto list of PIDs to log if you had problem X or something.


18673From B5916 and B5917 it looks like you never use the base spark tables, so all your spark would be coming from LO spark table B5914 (because you would have a MAF DTC)...

so I suggest playing a little with the LO spark table...

( if you're not boosted, your spark table could be increased )

[2002_z28_six_speed]

Oh man! It looks like I am using an out of date document for the VE tuning process.

Just tried searching the site a little bit --- Is there an official latest version with the basics of what to check for? I am beginning to understand I don't have all the puzzle pieces needed to finish this little project.

Thanks to everyone for contributing your years of experience.

[joecar]

You can use the same AutoVE procedure, but set the PE table to EQR 1.175 for NA engine (there was a concern that transitioning in/out of PE would skew the data, but since PE transition coincides with throttle movement, the transient filter removes this data).

Also, you may want to take a read of post #1 of the Calc.VET thread.

Take a look at spark as statesman said (your spark is coming from the LO table).

[2002_z28_six_speed]

I am still blown away that I didn't know the difference between 1 trip and 2 trip. :wallbash: Maybe I should go back to riding my sport bike. haha.
Is there a technical document that I can run through to make sure I fully understand what these tables do?

[Happy Jim]

I am still blown away that I didn't know the difference between 1 trip and 2 trip. :wallbash: Maybe I should go back to riding my sport bike. haha.
Is there a technical document that I can run through to make sure I fully understand what these tables do?

Fear not, you are not alone......I've just checked on what I've been doing for the past few days, Ummmm, maybe I'll just re-do it again :-)

[statesman]

I have been doing a lot of work on this and making some progress.

The truck doesn't stall as much anymore. Only sometimes randomly and multiple times in a row. It used to stall going into R and now it doesn't.
Every once and awhile the idle RPM will get batted around a whole bunch and take 30 seconds to settle down. 200 RPM differences.
Sometimes when letting off the gas on a roll the RPMs will come down to idle, bog, and then pop back up.

Your problems seem excessive for what really isn't that big a cam. What's the LSA on your cam and what kind of headers have you got?

[joecar]

Yes, what are your cam specs (int/exh dur, lsa, adv)...?

[joecar]

I am still blown away that I didn't know the difference between 1 trip and 2 trip. :wallbash: Maybe I should go back to riding my sport bike. haha.
Is there a technical document that I can run through to make sure I fully understand what these tables do?Don't feel bad...

sometimes I fire a mental blank, I have to scurry around relearning some basic concept...

[2002_z28_six_speed]

2004 Yukon Denali.
Stock LQ4 bottom end. 6.0L engine
Precision Heads, 5.3L heads, stage 2.5
Texas Speed 224R cam, this is a 224/224 cam with .581 lift, 114 lsa
Kooks catted 1 3/4 headers with catted connection pipe.
Currently running factory muffler (wife says if it gets louder she will punch me in the face)
FAST LSXtr 102mm intake
stock intake tract and throttle body
LS2 corvette injectors.

At this point it rarely stalls but it chugs. Sometimes the RPMS fall down really low and after 2-3 seconds it will pick back up. This usually happens when slowing down. Sometimes the idle swings around.

I am planning on running through the CALC.VET thread today to see if that changes the fueling any and then try the RAFIG RAFPN again.

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[statesman]

That cam doesn't have any overlap... it really shouldn't be causing you any problems at all. You didn't mention your torque converter in that list. Are you running a stock stall converter?

The open loop MAF tune you posted in your original post isn't even set up for running in MAF only mode. You need to set {B0120} "RPM Threshold For Airflow Calculation" to 400 to go into MAF only mode.

You might be better off putting your injector data into a stock tune and start tuning from scratch. With your injector data, your voltage offset values look really low to me... where did you get that injector data from?

[joecar]

With that cam, try going back to stock settings, doing what statesman said.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

Seems drastic to just fix the hunting idle issue that remains at this point. BUT I am willing to try it. You guys know your s$#it. :)

I got the fuel injector data from a stock tune I got off Holden Crazy for a 2005 Corvette Automatic. I am in the process of comparing those sets of data now but it just takes time and the tables aren't 100% the same.

A torque converter will be installed at a later date. Factory tranny and TC at this time.

[joecar]

2004 Yukon Denali.
Stock LQ4 bottom end. 6.0L engine
Precision Heads, 5.3L heads, stage 2.5
Texas Speed 224R cam, this is a 224/224 cam with .581 lift, 114 lsa
Kooks catted 1 3/4 headers with catted connection pipe.
Currently running factory muffler (wife says if it gets louder she will punch me in the face)
FAST LSXtr 102mm intake
stock intake tract and throttle body
LS2 corvette injectors.

At this point it rarely stalls but it chugs. Sometimes the RPMS fall down really low and after 2-3 seconds it will pick back up. This usually happens when slowing down. Sometimes the idle swings around.

I am planning on running through the CALC.VET thread today to see if that changes the fueling any and then try the RAFIG RAFPN again.

18684Yes, I agree with statesman, I would start from stock again, work on VE and MAF (Calc.VET and Calc.MAFT)...

tell wifie that efficiency may cause louderness.

[statesman]

Seems drastic to just fix the hunting idle issue that remains at this point. BUT I am willing to try it. You guys know your s$#it. :)

I got the fuel injector data from a stock tune I got off Holden Crazy for a 2005 Corvette Automatic. I am in the process of comparing those sets of data now but it just takes time and the tables aren't 100% the same.

A torque converter will be installed at a later date. Factory tranny and TC at this time.

It's not drastic at all. Random changes to your tune can be counter-productive... it can make it harder to find the cause of your problems.

You really should have a higher stall converter installed before tuning. The stock converter will put a bit more load on the engine at idle and cammed engines don't really like that very much.

I don't think that the injector data you found is very good. I've never seen an injector with voltage offset values that low. Bump up the entire voltage offset table by 0.3... that should help you get your MAF dialed in a bit better.

When you get your fueling properly dialed in, then you'll fix whatever hunting remains with your spark and air.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

Statesman,

I wanted to let you know that you were right about the injector data. I started looking at it and it didnt make sense. At one point in time I was talking to a tuner (didn't end up helping me much). I actually have FAST 46LB LS2 style injectors. Part number 30462-8. The tuner said he wouldn't tune my vehicle because the FAST injectors sucked and they were just 2005 Corvette injectors. Somehow that stock data got into my tune and was forgotten about. I heard that the 2000 AMA corvette has injectors like this and could be used for the injector data but this hasn't been confirmed.


HMM. This could be a lot of the problem.


The converter will be installed at a later date but is coming. Living in the DC area I don't drive it much so I am taking my time ordering the parts.

[joecar]

statesman, good call on the injectors :cheers:

[statesman]

Statesman,

I wanted to let you know that you were right about the injector data. I started looking at it and it didnt make sense. At one point in time I was talking to a tuner (didn't end up helping me much). I actually have FAST 46LB LS2 style injectors. Part number 30462-8. The tuner said he wouldn't tune my vehicle because the FAST injectors sucked and they were just 2005 Corvette injectors. Somehow that stock data got into my tune and was forgotten about. I heard that the 2000 AMA corvette has injectors like this and could be used for the injector data but this hasn't been confirmed.


HMM. This could be a lot of the problem.

Yeah, you really do need good injector data to get a good tune.

[statesman]

statesman, good call on the injectors :cheers:

Thanks joecar :cheers:

[2002_z28_six_speed]

Well my bike got a flat (and I didn't die!!) so I have been forced into working on this yet again. Reporting in that results are much better with the new (correct) injector data. Practically no stalling. There is some lugging when coming to a stop but not too bad. Hoping to have everything fixed soon.

[statesman]

That's great news. Are your wideband readings a bit tighter now?

[joecar]

Post your current tune and some logs so we can level set.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

I would say that I could see .98 to 1.14 BEN in some cells while others are tighter.


One thing I noticed is the AFR will be great for awhile. 14.8. Then I get into traffic for 20+ minutes and the AFR will go to 15.5 or higher.
Still some random stalling in the parking lots.
I did notice that sometimes on restart the RPMs will jump up to over 2000 and creep down. If I put it in gear within 15 seconds of restart that will for sure kill it.
Sometimes when coming to a stop it will chug down to 400 RPM and pop back up. It doesn't seem any work to the Cracker table has helped so I will try to go back to stock cracker table BUT that does seem to make the vehicle cruise control at speeds over 50kph.
If I got WOT off the traffic light it will shudder for 5 seconds and then pick up.

{removed old tune files. see next post for updated files.}

[statesman]

I've had a look at your log and it looks like it goes leaner as the IAT rises... that's heatsoak. You've got some KR activity in your log... the stuff at high load looks like real knock, the stuff around idle is most likely false knock. I think you might need to do a bit of work on your spark tables.

I haven't updated my software to the latest version yet so I can't look at your latest tune file right now, but I'll try to get that updated in the next day or two and then I'll have a good look at your tune file.

[joecar]

Post your latest/current tune/log files.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

:UPDATED:


I think I finally graduated with a C- from the school of hard knocks today. The truck ran pretty good with minimal dipping of the idle or surging ( solved with the desired airflow and not TC TF!). I think I need to run RAFIG/PN again one more time just to be sure. It did stall one time but only at the very end of the file when I was reversing into the garage. WOW! I am not really sure how to fix that part. It seems the transition from D to N to R is getting some input that causes everything to fluctuate just enough to kill it.


I am still seeing some KR in the areas mentioned before even after reducing advance. I will try to reduce again and see if it still happens.

The puzzle pieces are coming together here. That is an exciting thing. Now if I could just find someone to work on my motorcycle. haha.

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[2002_z28_six_speed]

I tried pulling spark advance till the engine ran like a snail and the knock never went away.

My guesses are that it is mostly all fake knock due to the engine or burst knock shows up as KR as well? Not sure if burst knock does that but if it does it would always show up due to throttle movement.

[joecar]

Are you seeing KR in the logs or are you hearing knock as engine runs...?

If you see constant KR continuously then the knock sensors and their subharness may need replacement.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

I actually have new knock sensors and harness! Yay for me! I finished up the engine rebuild about 3 months ago and it was a total refresh aside from breaking into the short block.

New oil pan gasket.
New oil pump.
LS6 Valley cover.
new 5.3l heads.
push rods
cam
intake
various seals and gaskets
electric fans
oil cooler lines
all new hydraboost lines

the truck has 191k miles on it. many parts are new.
it was a fun project to work on. sorry i didn't invite you guys to help out. :) Remaining items are: I need to replace some stuff like the drivers window regulator and steering wheel buttons. I also want to tackle coil over AWD shocks. Someone on performancetrucks.net sells the kit. If I get really bored I will go for a 4L80E with stall or a rare 6 speed swap (ZF S60-650 NOT t56!!!) Wanted to turn it into a fun project before I had kids.



So I just tried desensitizing the knock sensors and man it was a day and night difference. The motor has a ton of power and I can't hear any audible knocking. It became more apparent that I need to do something about the spark in transition. EG pulling away from stop and some ramping. It could be smoother.

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