Need HELP! Transmission lasted 20 miles this round

[TLKSCHP]

I use to run a Vacuum modulator but for got to add a check valve when i went boosted and killed trans #1 after boost. It was recommend to go back with an epc but two failures in less then 200 miles since. last one lasted 1 wot hit and maybe 35 miles. Trying to get a good log but decel is staying really fat.
specs
Base tune file from an EFI Live Vendor
1998 C5 auto SS3600 Yank with pcm swap running COS5
Vortech V3, 231/239 617/623 114 comp cam
ported stock heads, ls6 intake 3.73 gears
This was the only log I was able to grab and the car went into reduced power and died in traffic and i had to kill the log. I was also limited to 80mph from an F45 removal so anything over 80 would shut the car down. Had a TECH 2 on it when i tried to go wot for the 1st time with my trans builder but couldn't determine anything from it
19115
19116

[joecar]

Does this (your current) trans have a vacuum modulator...?

I haven't looked at your tune yet (I'm viewing this from my phone)... is there any scaling on VE/MAF/IFR...?

Did you connect a pressure gauge to tbe line tap on the side of the trans case and observe line pressure while driving...?

In the failed transmissions, what was determined to be the actual cause of failure (from tear-down inspection)...? What color was the fluid, did it smell burnt, was there any clutch material in the pan/filter...?

[TLKSCHP]

Does this (your current) trans have a vacuum modulator...?

No, New Builder wanted to go back with an EPC control


I haven't looked at your tune yet (I'm viewing this from my phone)... is there any scaling on VE/MAF/IFR...?

Yes, The Base of the tune was done by a well known Boost shop since I was having issues in the beginning with the wrong 2 bar MAP sensor and the car not running. I'm running COS5 so I'm not using a maf, 60lbs injectors that came with my A&A Kit.
e

Did you connect a pressure gauge to tbe line tap on the side of the trans case and observe line pressure while driving...?

No, I had a gauge hooked up on a previous failure on the lift but only did the basic test my builder wanted


In the failed transmissions, what was determined to be the actual cause of failure (from tear-down inspection)...? What color was the fluid, did it smell burnt, was there any clutch material in the pan/filter...?

previous two failures were 3 & 4th gear clutches smoked, fluid burnt. This build appears to have also lost 3 & 4 but has a major vibration or chatter, I have not pulled anything apart yet since i'm at a loss and builder is also. It seriously lasted less then 30 miles and failed on first wot attempt when my builder wanted to see how it performed

I tried to follow the steps you had outlined in other threads for setting up the transmission but was curious to have someone look at what I've done and verify i didn't miss understand something.

[Road]

First thing I would check is the 3/4 check ball capsule in the case.

[joecar]

I looked at your tune file, and B0101 Main VE table is lower than GM LS1 stock at un-boosted MAP/RPM...

see the negative percentage change of VE in your tune compared too 2002 Camaro stock (see screenshot)...


I don't know if that is the reason... you need to check the line pressure while driving in that region.

[TLKSCHP]

If I can get one to last longer then 30 miles I will try but I haven't been able to get any good logs that seem consistent. its real close to the start file I was sent to use. So what do you do if your AFR is correct in the VE but torque signal is low?

pulled it out of the car today, most likely go back to vacuum if i cant figure anything else out.

[TLKSCHP]

First thing I would check is the 3/4 check ball capsule in the case.

I will ask him about this

So nothing in the transmission settings looks like it would cause failure?
He is questioning if it could be a result of the PCM swap?

[joecar]

Trans settings in tune are ok.


If VE has been scaled down, then scale VE and IFR up, you will have to run SD because MAF limit (512 g/s) will be hit...

if scaling VE and IFR up causes IFR limit to be hit, then scale Stoich AFR B3601 up and scale IFR back down (while keeping VE scaled up)...

i.e. make VE go up.

VE should be representative of engine's torque production, and I'm sure you have not physically lost any torque in tbe area I showed above.

[joecar]

Do what Road said above.


Also check other sources of internal leakage like the 3/4 accumulator.

Sounds like you now have broken hard parts.


Was trans fluid burnt looking/smelling, or was it still new...?

[TLKSCHP]

Do what Road said above.
Also check other sources of internal leakage like the 3/4 accumulator.
Sounds like you now have broken hard parts.
Was trans fluid burnt looking/smelling, or was it still new...?

fluid was dark and plenty of material in pan already. Just worried my converter is toast now.

When does D1107 come into play? should it be zeroed?
Also i was asked if I fixed

In the pressure table, stock,the last line of that table, it dumps all the pressure. have you fixed that yet?

any idea what they are referring to?

My trans guy cant get to it for a few days to see whats broke yet

Thank you for the help

[joecar]

D1101,2,3,7: make sure these are not negative... yours are ok.

[joecar]

In the pressure table, stock,the last line of that table, it dumps all the pressure. have you fixed that yet?

B3801: Force Motor Current... looks ok, see pic.

[TLKSCHP]

A Little update
I will just quote what my builder sent me

Got the trans apart last night. Took about 2 hours for tear down because I was looking at every little thing. Used solvent to check the afl valve and it's not leaking. I pulled the epc and found something on the screen. Found the same on the 3-2 downshift solenoid and also in a passage in the case.


So knowing there's only one place that material can come from, I dismantled the filter. Not sure what the hell happened.

It's like the dacron just started coming apart. It wasn't sucked up blocking the pickup tube. And anything in that fold shouldn't be able to get to the vb. That's the point of the filter. But it did.

The other odd thing is the 3-4 are burnt but not horrible. Just enough to not engage or chatter like we felt. Tonight I'm going to continue digging and see if I can find anything else.
19147

[joecar]

The filter material is coming apart...?

Which brand is that filter that your builder is using...?

I wonder where else in the trans the filter material ended up...?

[joecar]

Does the 3/4 clutch pack have the correct clearence (i.e. not excessive) and/or does it have enough plates...?

[TLKSCHP]

The filter material is coming apart...?

Which brand is that filter that your builder is using...?

I wonder where else in the trans the filter material ended up...?

Filter was from A&Red transmission parts which he thought were Delco and the filter debris is everywhere. So not excited about my converter being trashed now.

As for the 3-4 clutch packs I'm sure he has them done correctly, he made a point of explaining how my last builder had set them up wrong.

He is pulling the pump apart tonight

[TLKSCHP]

After getting the pump apart he has decided the converter clutch has came apart and it's not filter material. It's a Yank SS3600 that I've had for about 10k miles and 8 years. Thinking the apply pressure is wrong

[joecar]

Hmmm, interesting...

did he get the converter cut open to take a look...?

[TLKSCHP]

Hmmm, interesting...

did he get the converter cut open to take a look...?

I'm shipping it back to Yank today, said it would be about 10 days before they could get to it.

[TLKSCHP]

Got the Yank converter back. All they told me was it was burnt and needed rebuilt since it was old but should have still been functional. According to Yank they have a 5 year life. So now I'm a little nervous, nothing has really changed except trans is fresh again and converters is basically a new pas3400. So I have a break in of 150 miles before I can go wot, I will try and get the VE perfect for everything not in a boost table and log what the trans is doing but any other recommendations before driving it? I can post a log files, any Pids anyone would like to see? My biggest problem is smoothing VE tables

[joecar]

Log the pids GM.TRTQENG.fltb and GM.TFMPRS.psi to make sure they go high when throttle opening is large...

if they do not, then trans line pressure is going to be low.

Is the trans all back together now (so was that material from the converter clutch...?)...?

[TLKSCHP]

Is the trans all back together now (so was that material from the converter clutch...?)...?

Yank didn't say much about what the found and my builder firmly believes it was from the converter. So idk

Got it back in and just did a drive around the block and check the fluids and 15% throttle feels fine. But what would cause it to go 10 afr when I lift my foot and coast then when I tap the gas go lean then back to 14.7 when I'm on the gas?

[statesman]

But what would cause it to go 10 afr when I lift my foot and coast then when I tap the gas go lean then back to 14.7 when I'm on the gas?

Your minimum injector pulse is set too high.

[TLKSCHP]

Your minimum injector pulse is set too high.

Vengeance had set up the injectors and had them set at minimum pulse width .805 for 0, 400, and 800 rpm but jumps to 1.276 after that.

I adjusted to .805 all rpm and and problem went away. Now I just need to get the VE inline again, has allot of afr swing now. Should I set default min pulse to
Match?

What kind of torque or holding pressure should I be at cruising 40, 60 mph etc?

[statesman]

Should I set default min pulse to Match?

Yes.


What kind of torque or holding pressure should I be at cruising 40, 60 mph etc?

Factory settings... unless you can detect some slip.

[TLKSCHP]

Here is my last log. It appears cruising at 35-45 at times I'm commanding 0 psi

[statesman]

I think you might be confusing torque signal pressure with line pressure. Even at 0psi torque signal pressure, you're still going to have about 55psi line pressure... which is generally sufficient clamping pressure for situations where the engine isn't producing much torque.

It's the WOT pulls which is destroying your transmission, not your cruising. Ask your builder if he's fitted a stiffer slide spring in your pump. Without that, you'll keep burning up your 3-4 clutchpacks.

[TLKSCHP]

Transmission # 2 was after cruising about an hour at 75, got off into the city and 3 & 4 were gone. He claims everything has been upgraded except two things that he claims I don't need at my power level but I was willing to buy. Sonnax 3-4 drum and going back vacuum.

[statesman]

All I can think of is maybe to get your builder to hook up a line pressure gauge and test to see if your commanded torque signal pressure is producing sufficient line pressure.

[joecar]

TFMPRS follows MAP, so it's ok, it has a range 0-96 psi which maps to line pressure range 55-230 psi, see what stateman said above.


did he make sure the 3/4 clutch hydraulic circuit did not leak.
did he make sure that the pressure regulator did not leak (there's boost valve upgrade kits).
did he install stiffer pump slide spring as statesman said above.
there's a few other things to look out for...

even tho line pressure may be correct (sufficiently high), if the 3/4 clutch hydraulic circuit leaks, then the 3/4 clutch will slip and overheat and destroy itself.

[TLKSCHP]

I don't think he checked for leaks the first build but this last one he did. I had a spare trans he ended up using allot of also. He spent about about a week making sure all the material was out of everything. I'm just afraid I'm missing something now in the tune or from the PCM swap. Guess I will go and try and get the VE closer today and just enjoy our vary rare 65 deg winter day

I appreciate all the suggestions and help.

[joecar]

When he assembles the 3/4 clutch pack, he has to air pressure test it, and again when he installs it into the case.

He also has to make sure the VB is flat, and that the case is flat where the VB mates to.

[TLKSCHP]

175 miles of logs and seeming fine and was just planning on enjoying the day driving it without looking at my laptop and like an idiot got baited into a wot hit rolling into it from 2nd and it didn't even try to grab 3rd and now 3rd is gone

[statesman]

That's a real bummer.

After that many transmission failures, I'd be looking for a new builder.

[joecar]

That points to internal leakage.

+1 new builder, find one who specializes in 4L60E/65E and nothing else.

[joecar]

See attached pages of 4L60E HMTG, they show hydraulic components involved in 3rd gear, leakage at any of these or in the circuit will comprise 3rd gear (and 4th gear since it shares the 3/4 clutch).

[TLKSCHP]

So now my trans builder thinks it's the PCM. When the transmission is unplugged and defaults to 3rd it works and doesn't slip. He plans on coming by with a test harness and new pressure manifold, and other parts to swap and see what happens this Saturday

[Road]

So now my trans builder thinks it's the PCM. When the transmission is unplugged and defaults to 3rd it works and doesn't slip. He plans on coming by with a test harness and new pressure manifold, and other parts to swap and see what happens this Saturday
All the testing an diagnostic's should have been done before the test drive. Tell him to bring a pressure gauge and a tech 2. Or just tell to him stay home and find a new builder.

[TLKSCHP]

My transmission builder came over and spent some time looking and testing things this weekend. He is stumped and typed up this to post on a transmission forum he is on. I thought I would share it here

Car is tuned with EFI Live.
First time after the blower install, the modulator blew causing low line pressure and smoking the clutches. Replaced all wear items, installed beast sunshell, reinstalled EPC, and checked valve body. Air checked.

Second time car made several hits, few hundred miles, and burned the 3-4 clutches but all clutches showed wear as if a pressure issue. Replaced all the clutches, swapped valve body, installed Sonnax boost valve, and air checked everything again.

Put 40 easy miles on and hooked up the tech 2 to monitor demanded amps to the EPC to see if the tune was commanding properly. Drove great, shifted great and everything appeared to being commanded properly per the tech 2. Stopped and did a WOT pass. On the 2-3 shift, the car shuttered hard and neutraled. After that, it would neutral on the 2-3 shift. Pulled the filter apart and it was full of clutch material. Tore the trans down and all clutches showed signs of wear that would indicate a pressure loss. This material was broadcast throughout including plugging ever filter in the valve body and the screens of all solenoids. I had never seen this happens so I showed some old builders who said it wasn’t the Dacron from the filter but friction material. Sent converter off for rebuild as it was the first time it was opened in 8-10 years with a few trans rebuilds over the years before I touched it. Replaced all the Torrington bearings because this material was wrapped up in everything. Trans goes back in the car and he puts 150 ~ miles of part to 3/4 throttle per converter builder recommendations. After that, makes a rolling into WOT and the car makes the 2-3 no problem. Stops and does a full WOT pass and on the 2-3 shift, it neutrals. Doesn’t shutter like before.

Unplugged the trans and in shifter position 3 or 4, the car moves. So, I think mechanical 3rd is there but it pulls like it’s in second. We go drive the car with the fuse to the trans pulled. Put the shifter in manual second and start to drive up, manually shift to 3rd and it neutrals. Tells me 3rd gear is in fact not there. Put a gauge on it and pressures match what they are commanded. Commanded pressures were matching amp. Max the scanner showed commanded was .2 amps and the gauge was showing 180-185 psi. To add to my confusion, it did something I have never seen before. When we did a WOT in second, on the 2-3 shift the pressure jumped to 240 psi and the commanded amps still showed .2, then the pressure dropped to 90psi. I was not quick enough to know if the drop was as he let out of the throttle or right before. The 240 spike lasted maybe a second, it was fast.

[joecar]

Which trans forum did he post on, I want to read the replies...


What rpm are the WOT shifts at...?

What HP and TQ is engine making...?

[TLKSCHP]

I believe I have it set to shift at 6800, I have the tune posted above.

As for tq and hp I've never had it on a Dyno but guessing around 600hp

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1710226&nocache=1456165484143

[joecar]

Here is some more info from LS1tech:



A worn 3/4 clutch is one of the most common problems reported here for the 4L60E. Many members have reported premature 3/4 clutch failures after a rebuild.
Whether you are having your trans rebuilt locally or are doing it yourself, it is good be be well informed about this trouble spot.

Here are some useful threads:

Keep finding clutch on newly rebuilt 60e (http://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/1819344-keep-finding-clutch-newly-rebuilt-60e.html)

Question about stock clutches in a 4L60E (http://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/1803850-question-about-stock-clutches-4l60e.html)

2-3 WOT shift problem (http://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/1786643-2-3-wot-shift-problem.html)

I am keeping this thread locked, but will update it regularly with links to other related (open) threads. If you want to suggest a thread, PM it to me.

I will soon add some posts to summarize the problems and solutions, being careful to keep my advice in line with the pro builders here (which I am not).




Joe:

Also see post #17 here:
Performance 4L60E build thread (http://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/1798010-performance-4l60e-build-thread.html)

And especially #11 here:
Keep finding clutch on newly rebuilt 60e (http://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/1819344-keep-finding-clutch-newly-rebuilt-60e.html)

The checkball capsule mentioned in the efilive thread is also a leakage point, but I now think that the input drum is the more common leak point. It would also explain why so many rebuild fail so quickly - the builder simply reuses the input drum without concern, partly because the ATSG manual does not mention it.

Ted.

[TLKSCHP]

So he thinks it might be the case check ball, he had solvent tested it and checked fine but didn't replace it. Looking at what other parts I should upgrade. I've been told billet pump rotor, pinless accumulator? Thoughts on valve for the p1870? Extra capacity pan? Has the reinforced drum, hd2 kit, sonnax servo,. Im sure allot of other parts but idk all of them.

[Road]

The case check ball has bit me more than once. You can remove it and use a cap plug out of a 200r4 kit. Inspect pump stator and input drum real good too. You can use a spring on the tcc valve eliminating the pwm. Good luck!

[5.9mega]

Need to check cooler flow and make sure you have lockup. pm me for my number, I will try to help you get this figured out.

[TLKSCHP]

This is what he has told me so far as of today


3-4 is melted. Case check ball leaked but once I put pressure on it, sealed. Tonight I'll tear the input drum down. Other case is ready to start assembly after I get seals.

At 170 psi I started getted air bleeding out of the 3-4.

Wasn't the checkball. It was in the drum. Pulled it down and the oring looked...odd. looked like it had stretched somehow. Will still be replacing the case and checkball like we discussed and go back to the old valve body as well. Trying to track down a freeze plug instead of the check ball but haven't fully decided on it yet.

[TLKSCHP]

Well got the trans back, had the check ball capsule replaced, different case also, sonnax HD kit, HD2 kit, added. He was gapping the 3-4 clutches to .055 with 7 clutches this time is .028 and 8 I believe. Put it it and felt fine around the block but noticed it was leaking badly. Rear seal was damaged it appeared so I Pulled and replaced it and so far so good. For what ever reason my fueling is now way off on wot before was 10.9 and now 11.5 so I have to do some tuning and serious audible detonation and hope for the best. Fuel may be bad at this point. I think the check ball capsule and 3-4 clutch gap was the main issue oh and he found an o-ring that was messed up.

I would like to thank everyone the offered help & suggestions
Thank You

[joecar]

Set B3618 PE Fueling richer.


Let us know how it goes.

[TLKSCHP]

Fueling wasnt running consistent, one log would show lean next fat and couldn't find a happy spot. found out why today when my new AEM gauge was reading a huge swing and the car didn't run any different. Put a new sensor in and now I'm showing 13.1 wot. But idle and cruising seems normal.

[joecar]

If it's consistent now, then make B3618 a little richer.

[TLKSCHP]

Made it to the track to try and get some tuning done but I had to keep it slower then 11.50. So I just rolled through the beams and rolled into wot. 12.09 @ 129. Looking at my log I see 1-2 shifted at 7400, 2-3 at 7300 and log shows 6500 @ 127 crossing the 1/4. According to my gear calculater 6500 should be around 140mph. 27" tires. Is the from Converter slip? Track was having issues so only got the one run in. Compared it to my street log and it shifts at 6950

[joecar]

Made it to the track to try and get some tuning done but I had to keep it slower then 11.50. So I just rolled through the beams and rolled into wot. 12.09 @ 129. Looking at my log I see 1-2 shifted at 7400, 2-3 at 7300 and log shows 6500 @ 127 crossing the 1/4. According to my gear calculater 6500 should be around 140mph. 27" tires. Is the from Converter slip? Track was having issues so only got the one run in. Compared it to my street log and it shifts at 6950Pull the trans dipstick and check fluid color/smell.