Low speed GMLAN (SWCAN)

[DURAtotheMAX]

Just curious if the V2 hardware supports low speed GMLAN? The 33.3k single wire 29-bit CAN bus used on the interior stuff.

I see that pin 1 on the V2 cable is populated, but I was curious if the V2 had the hardware (or software) support for any SWCAN implementation.

Or maybe Flashscan V3 will have full SWCAN support? :music_whistling_1::)

[GMPX]

It used to, the early black ones had the SWCAN chip but we removed it years ago, V3 won't get it either, sorry.

[DURAtotheMAX]

It used to, the early black ones had the SWCAN chip but we removed it years ago, V3 won't get it either, sorry.

Interesting. Yeah I just took mine apart (february 2006), sure enough it had a TLE6255 SWCAN transceiver on there.

Just out of curiosity, what was the original intent of having it on there? Were you guys doing it "just in case" because GMLAN was just starting to be phased in at that time and you werent sure where they (GM) were going to go with it?

Or was there something else originally planned like body/interior diagnostics?

[DURAtotheMAX]

Is Flashscan V3 going to have support for any additional protocols? FD-CAN?

[GMPX]

Were you guys doing it "just in case" because GMLAN was just starting to be phased in at that time and you werent sure where they (GM) were going to go with it?
Yes it was a just in case situation, but in the end we never found a use for it so when we transitioned to the blue V2's it was decided to leave it out as the chip was getting expensive too. yes it would be nice to send messages to the cluster but it is more a gimmick that necessity.


Is Flashscan V3 going to have support for any additional protocols? FD-CAN?
FD-CAN ?

[Tre-Cool]

rather then post a new thread i'll jump in here as it's kinda related with the can discussion.

What would the chances be of supporting can based widebands? I know we can't plug directly into the v2, but wouldn't it be possible to plug into the obdi2 plug HS can lines for the data to be injected and then log pids into efilive scanner?

The reason I ask now is there is a guy modifying a firmware for some aem gauges on the hpt forum and they are wiring in to the can wires and reading directly into the hpt logging software.
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?55546-AEM-30-0300-Wideband-with-direct-CAN-integration-W-VCMScanner-Need-beta-testers/page4

I'm not personally using the AEM gauges, but I do have some of the existing ecotrons units and they have a dual wideband can kit, which would be great to use instead of just the 1 sensor kits and you have already got the serial data working for me. :-)

ALM list their can data specs/formatting in this pdf (http://www.ecotrons.com/files/ALM%20Communication%20Protocol%20-%20CAN.pdf).

If it's do-able i'll order 2 kits and ship you one for testing.

[GMPX]

What would the chances be of supporting can based widebands? I know we can't plug directly into the v2, but wouldn't it be possible to plug into the obdi2 plug HS can lines for the data to be injected and then log pids into efilive scanner?
Currently no because EFILive only monitors for ECM and TCM CAN ID's to assist in software/hardware throughput, to add to that they are using 29bit CAN headers at 250K for their messages which we can't have mixed in with GM ECM/TCM 11bit ID's at 500K. It looks like you can configure the ALM to use something different to the default set up, but it could be tricky making it play nice on the GM CAN bus with all the other modules on there.


firmware for some aem gauges on the hpt forum and they are wiring in to the can wires and reading directly into the hpt logging software.
And Tre-Cool still manages to get in the obligatory HPT plug/link for every post he makes :doh:

[Tre-Cool]

Currently no because EFILive only monitors for ECM and TCM CAN ID's to assist in software/hardware throughput, to add to that they are using 29bit CAN headers at 250K for their messages which we can't have mixed in with GM ECM/TCM 11bit ID's at 500K.


And Tre-Cool still manages to get in the obligatory HPT plug/link for every post he makes :doh:

They offer the option to go to 11 bit can id's as a customer specific requirement. Obviously that would help then?

As for the hpt plug, it's hardly that. I just keep my eyes open on what's going on in both platforms & While I have both, only efilive has my money for multiple stream licenses.

I actually found it quite ironic/funny that hpt users are raving on about being able to go to serial/can input instead of analog 0-5v considering how long we've had it with efi.

[DURAtotheMAX]

Yes it was a just in case situation, but in the end we never found a use for it so when we transitioned to the blue V2's it was decided to leave it out as the chip was getting expensive too. yes it would be nice to send messages to the cluster but it is more a gimmick that necessity.

Yeah, makes sense.



FD-CAN ?

Flexible-Data rate CAN. Works at speeds >1mbps, and up to 64-byte(!) message. Its the new encrypted CAN/GMLAN bus that GM will be moving over to within the next couple of years when they roll out the new Global-B electrical architecture to replace the current Global-A.

I suspect OBD tuning will basically end when they go to encrypted CAN. 5 byte seed/key stored in the cloud. :(

I dont blame them for going to encryped CAN though; Global-B will support over-the-air software updates and wireless diagnostics, so security pretty much HAS to be implemented on the bus to protect us from cyber attacks, etc.

[MobileProg]

From what I understand it will be some time until the encryption portion will be actually enabled or implemented, even after the new bus is introduced.

[GMPX]

Flexible-Data rate CAN. Works at speeds >1mbps, and up to 64-byte(!) message. Its the new encrypted CAN/GMLAN bus that GM will be moving over to within the next couple of years when they roll out the new Global-B electrical architecture to replace the current Global-A.
I suspect it will be further away than a couple of years. I think the current CAN hardware in CPU's can do 1mbps already, but to be honest we aren't going to start speculating or working on something that doesn't yet exist.


I suspect OBD tuning will basically end when they go to encrypted CAN. 5 byte seed/key stored in the cloud. :(
It is already on one Cadillac vehicle now....and yes I agree this potentially spells the end as you cannot brute force attack a 5 byte Key unless you have about 10 years to wait, scary thought but the day will come over all platforms when we are essentially locked out for good.

[Tre-Cool]

I suspect it will be further away than a couple of years. I think the current CAN hardware in CPU's can do 1mbps already, but to be honest we aren't going to start speculating or working on something that doesn't yet exist.


It is already on one Cadillac vehicle now....and yes I agree this potentially spells the end as you cannot brute force attack a 5 byte Key unless you have about 10 years to wait, scary thought but the day will come over all platforms when we are essentially locked out for good.

How does this affect some of the legal mandates in regards to consumers being able to read/clear error faults etc. Isn't that what the obdi2 standard was designed to be? i.e a "free" and open communication platform so the vehicle manufacturers couldn't lock out the independent workshops.

[Cougar281]

I wonder if there will be unencrypted traffic on the bus specifically for the purpose of pulling/resetting codes? At the same time, as far as i know, there is a federal law that says that reflashing modules cannot be a dealer only thing, that independent shops must be able to reflash as well. Should be interesting....

[GMPX]

Good points guys, but when you subscribe to TIS for flashing the 'tool' is dumb and just passes data from the PC to the car, if that requires an internet connection so GM can talk back to their server to unlock the car (and figure encryption) then that is how it will be. It will remain an option for non dealers to be able to do that, encrypted or not it doesn't really matter because their system knows the encryption keys.
I suspect simple things like checking DTC's etc will still need to remain open.

[DURAtotheMAX]

From what I understand it will be some time until the encryption portion will be actually enabled or implemented, even after the new bus is introduced.

But with the new Global-B architecture offering over-the-air software update capability, how do they expect to combat the potential for the vehicles to be hacked wirelessly?? With an unencrypted bus, it would be easy for someone to hack and take control of the vehicle. They've already proved this on some of the newest chrysler vehicles.

[DURAtotheMAX]

It is already on one Cadillac vehicle now....and yes I agree this potentially spells the end as you cannot brute force attack a 5 byte Key unless you have about 10 years to wait, scary thought but the day will come over all platforms when we are essentially locked out for good.

But theoretically we could still tune, just have to do what the european's have been doing for years...open the ECM up and flash via JTAG?

Which Cadillac vehicle/ECM is the encrypted flashing already being used on?

[DURAtotheMAX]

I suspect simple things like checking DTC's etc will still need to remain open.

x2...Im sure DTC's, emissions readiness tests, and the small group of EPA-generic PIDs will still be unencrypted/easily accessible.

[Chavez91]

Flexible-Data rate CAN. Works at speeds >1mbps, and up to 64-byte(!) message. Its the new encrypted CAN/GMLAN bus that GM will be moving over to within the next couple of years when they roll out the new Global-B electrical architecture to replace the current Global-A.

I suspect OBD tuning will basically end when they go to encrypted CAN. 5 byte seed/key stored in the cloud. :(

I dont blame them for going to encryped CAN though; Global-B will support over-the-air software updates and wireless diagnostics, so security pretty much HAS to be implemented on the bus to protect us from cyber attacks, etc.


I was reading about this just the other day. It's a pretty interesting implementation. Gonna make it a PITA for us tho.

[GMPX]

But theoretically we could still tune, just have to do what the european's have been doing for years...open the ECM up and flash via JTAG?
Time for a new career if it comes to that :muahaha:


Which Cadillac vehicle/ECM is the encrypted flashing already being used on?
2016+ 3.6L LGX motor, not encrypted flashing but 5 byte seed/key. Which if they have a 10 second timer per attempt means it would take about 348,652 years to find the key if you brute force it.