3 bar SD open loop idle rich and hard start cold

[jay_rich]

Well after going over my entire car trying to figure out a no start I noticed the plugs were all fouled. I want to work on my cold start issues. Pretty well takes 3 times to start cold. Usually dies out. After its running it runs great.

Should I be messing with the VE?

5.3L
LS6 Cam
02 COS3
4L80e
80lb Injectors
40psi Rail pressure idle 1:1 rising
Vic Jr, Stock ported TB
GT45 Turbo

3bar map

I spent a while last summer messing with this and never really got it set, even doing auto VE. Seemed like I would modify it then the next cruise the numbers would be off again.

Thanks Jay

[joecar]

In table B0102 "Cranking VE" the cell values are too high... compare with the values in the 400 rpm in table B0101.

[jay_rich]

I did end up pulling almost 60% out of the cranking VE, it seems better. I logged my RAFIG/N last night and for some reason it showing zero's across the board on my scanner. Im going to start back over I think I edited too much since now I have a hanging idle around 1000rpm warm. Commanded 750rpm. I did add in a 200rpm offset for 4 seconds after start up, maybe its holding onto that? Ill further investigate after I get my trans issues cleared.

Jay

[joecar]

I did end up pulling almost 60% out of the cranking VE, it seems better. I logged my RAFIG/N last night and for some reason it showing zero's across the board on my scanner. Im going to start back over I think I edited too much since now I have a hanging idle around 1000rpm warm. Commanded 750rpm. I did add in a 200rpm offset for 4 seconds after start up, maybe its holding onto that? Ill further investigate after I get my trans issues cleared.

JayPost screenshot.

[jay_rich]

Here are a couple pics

Jay

1939119392

[joecar]

Hmmm, weird... do the zeros on the IAC DMA pids persist...?

[jay_rich]

Okay so I just tried again with some other pids selected. Perhaps I had the wrong ones? I happened to click on the "calculated" pids tab and say both rafig and rafin but these also stayed 0.00.

I didnt get much time as im in the middle of bbqing. I did only like a 2 minute COLD idle. Still have to crank it over like 4 times to start it cold. As soon as I got it close following the idle tips it created a hanging idle. So I set my IAC Airflows back to factory LS1. I want to say this has more to do with injector tuning. I recall my C5 vette when I ran 42lb injectors I had a hell of a time with start up.

IAC PARK AIRFLOW- Stayed pretty stead at 2.95lb/min (what exaxtly does this mean?)
Warmed up IAC P/N (same here?)
Warmed up IAC in gear (same here?)
I also logged my PCS it appears to be working but very very low amperages, meaning more pressure? Still need to further investigate this.19399

[jay_rich]

Not too sure if this will fix my cold start but my idle is much cleaner and i no longer have a tip in issue by changing the B4006 MIN injector pulse width from 3.9998 to 1.900. Now the car idles around a 1.800 pulse width. Seems much cleaner and probably a bunch leaner. In open loop my wideband was full rich, now im around 11.8-12.00

Jay

[joecar]

Not too sure if this will fix my cold start but my idle is much cleaner and i no longer have a tip in issue by changing the B4006 MIN injector pulse width from 3.9998 to 1.900. Now the car idles around a 1.800 pulse width. Seems much cleaner and probably a bunch leaner. In open loop my wideband was full rich, now im around 11.8-12.00

Jayok, so injector data was not correct/complete.

[joecar]

Okay so I just tried again with some other pids selected. Perhaps I had the wrong ones? I happened to click on the "calculated" pids tab and say both rafig and rafin but these also stayed 0.00.

I didnt get much time as im in the middle of bbqing. I did only like a 2 minute COLD idle. Still have to crank it over like 4 times to start it cold. As soon as I got it close following the idle tips it created a hanging idle. So I set my IAC Airflows back to factory LS1. I want to say this has more to do with injector tuning. I recall my C5 vette when I ran 42lb injectors I had a hell of a time with start up.

IAC PARK AIRFLOW- Stayed pretty stead at 2.95lb/min (what exaxtly does this mean?)
Warmed up IAC P/N (same here?)
Warmed up IAC in gear (same here?)
I also logged my PCS it appears to be working but very very low amperages, meaning more pressure? Still need to further investigate this.19399On the PIDs tab, make sure those pids do not have any red X thru them.

I'm looking in your tune to correlate that 2.95 lb/min...

Also, use g/s instead of lb/min (use Metric for mass, flowrate, manifold pressure, use Imperial for speed, temperature, transmission pressure).

[jay_rich]

None of them showed red X's in them. Ill switch that to G/Sec on my next log.

Yes I left the min pulse to what it was factory since thats what my buddy had it set to. Seems to be much better. No more tip in issues. He told me he had a tip in issue as well but it didnt bother him. For a very common injector I found it hard to get correct data.

Jay

[statesman]

Also, use g/s instead of lb/min (use Metric for mass, flowrate, manifold pressure, use Imperial for speed, temperature, transmission pressure).

Why don't you catch up with the rest of the world and use Metric for everything? :laugh:

[joecar]

Why don't you catch up with the rest of the world and use Metric for everything? :laugh:LOL...

I agree and I would... :cool:

but mph and F* fit the local conventions (what you immediately see and experience on the road);

and trans psi allows the range of values to be more usable and correlates to all the old manuals I've accumulated over the decades.

[jay_rich]

LOL i use a mixture as im canadian but so close to the Detroit Border.


So I was going through some threads last night. Im gonna look at the B4003 and B4004. I found a spec sheet for the Siemens 80# injectors. It shows a MIN Pulse of 0.599. My tune currently shows B4003 - 0.729480 and B4004 - 1.276591


Can anyone explain the differance between these? Should I be putting 0.599 in both?

B4003- Minimum Injector Pulse Width
B4004- Default Minimum Pulse Width (says if the PCM commands less than B4003 then it uses this table)

So is the PCM using the B3701 (injector pulse width with voltage adjustment + the small pulse adjust for the numbers?) I have the B3701 set to the spec sheets correct. I know some threads I read say to mess with the timing for larger injectors, but im yet to find a single tune that someone altered the timing and trims.

I would assume the cold start issues are due to the injectors. Most of the rest of the tune is stock besides desired idle speeds, shift points. I did add some timing. I found the car ran WAY worse with a stock timing map. Also the Throttle body has been ported. maybe this is causing issues? I did try adding a tad more Air to the PARKED IAC position. Didnt seem to help at all


Thanks,

[statesman]

So I was going through some threads last night. Im gonna look at the B4003 and B4004. I found a spec sheet for the Siemens 80# injectors. It shows a MIN Pulse of 0.599. My tune currently shows B4003 - 0.729480 and B4004 - 1.276591


Can anyone explain the differance between these? Should I be putting 0.599 in both?

B4003- Minimum Injector Pulse Width
B4004- Default Minimum Pulse Width (says if the PCM commands less than B4003 then it uses this table)


Yes, put that value in both tables.

You said earlier that you changed {B4006}.... you may find some undesirable fueling effects by doing that. As soon as you go below that value (think decel here), you're going to be slammed with the full value of your small pulse adjust and it will send you seriously rich. It's far better to tone down the small pulse adjust table {B4005} and leave {B4006} at the stock setting.

[jay_rich]

I did notice that actually. I did around a 30min cruise. Stopped for gas then noticed after that my wideband was maxed and the laptop was showing 7.5afr at low throttle cruise. I'll change that back to 3.999 and change the 4003 and 4004. I'll try to test it tonight if the weather holds

Thanks.

[statesman]

I'll change that back to 3.999 and change the 4003 and 4004. I'll try to test it tonight if the weather holds

Tone down your {B4005} as well, or you won't be very happy with the results.

[jay_rich]

Tone down your {B4005} as well, or you won't be very happy with the results.

Looking at that now its toned down the slightest amount from a stock LS1, it appears the LS1 to a ZR1 pulse adjust is a pretty good amount different. Ill slowly scale what I have and see what the results are. Ill start with taking 10% out and seeing what happens. Its amazing how common these injectors are and how little info you can find on them for EFIlive tunes, seems like everyone with them uses HP tuners!


Jay

[jay_rich]

Adjusted the b4003 and 4004 to the 0.599, b4006 back to 3.999 and took around 20% of the small pulse adjust b4005.

Seems to be a bunch more stable cruising on and off the throttle. Was only seeing 11-12afr off throttle.

No change in fire up. Still takes 3 cranks and some throttle to keep it alive. Seems like it will chug for like 10 seconds then level out. Went and adjusted the cranking afr command to a bunch leaner and it was way worse.

I'll do some more research and test again tomorrow.it sucks because I only get like 1 try every 30min lol.

Jay

[statesman]

No change in fire up. Still takes 3 cranks and some throttle to keep it alive. Seems like it will chug for like 10 seconds then level out. Went and adjusted the cranking afr command to a bunch leaner and it was way worse.

It probably needs more start-up airflow.

[jay_rich]

Well did some more messing with it. I was reviewing my IAC (spark and fuel/air) tables with one from a stock 2002 camaro and did see some significant differences (but then again mine was based from a 1999 camaro so there could be some differences). So I pretty well copied all of the stock Camaro values over, then I also adjusted the throttle body. Cracked it 3% then reset the TPS and IAC so the TPS is reading 0 %. It did seem to want to fire much easier. Died as soon as it idled down a tad. I then added 10% to the B4343 Startup Friction airflow Decay which seemed to fire quicker but the car was just started 5 minute previous. This cold start is tricky because you don’t get very many changes before its already a bit warm. It was successful enough that I didn’t have to even get in the car and throttle it to keep the car alive.

So then I took a look into the fuel pressure. I must have set my fuel pressure last year with the reference hooked up so it was 42ish psi with the vacuum line on and around 50 psi with the hose off/kinked ( I based all of my injector rates for 43psi base). As soon as I kinked the vacuum line and started bringing down the pressure to 43psi no reference the car leaned out and stalled. So now I’m basically starting over with my VE and cranking VE. It ended up being around a 20% change in fuel pressure. Started with adding 10% to the entire VE and it ran okay but still a tad lean and sounded like it wanted to die and chugged a tad. AFR was around 16.5-17.00. So I just added another 9% to the entire VE (in theory this should bring be down to around a 14.7-15.00 idle afr). I feel I am getting closer, and my VE is looking more like a normal VE. In the 40-50s in the lower map idle ranges vs 30s like it was. If all is good I will toss an Auto-VE tune in the car tonight and take it out for a good hour or so. We are supposed to get some spring like weather today.

I will test again tonight. It was getting late and the wife put a stop to it lol.

Jay

[statesman]

Are you going to run the fuel rail unreferenced now?

[jay_rich]

Nope it is still referenced, so running it actually sits around 35psi idle 19-21in/hg vacuum. un-eferenced it is 43psi.

[statesman]

Is it a boost referenced regulator?

[jay_rich]

yes its a 1:1 boost referenced reg. Summit (aka Aeromotive reg)

Also here is the newest updated tune that seems to be getting me closer. I should add I havnt done any WOT or driving with this yet. Just testing idle. I will need to do an auto VE and clean up the VE for sure.

Jay

[statesman]

Do you have a MAF sensor fitted which you can enable?

[jay_rich]

No I do not. I wired the car for SD. Would make life much easier if I did though!

[jay_rich]

Progress is getting better. I fired it up dead cold yesterday and it fired immediately then stumbled after like 3 seconds and died. I was able to throttle it a tad to keep it alive. Before sometimes it would still stumble. I ended up going for a good 30min cruise and the throttle feel seems much more responsive and no longer sticks. IAC counts are down to about 85-90 warm idle around 800rpm. When I got home I adjusted the throttle body another .8% and reset it. I will try to get an autoVE in this weekend if the weather holds and see if it clears any other issues up.

Jay

[statesman]

Try adding a little bit more start up friction airflow and reduce the friction airflow decay (maybe 20-30%) so it holds that extra airflow a bit longer.

[jay_rich]

I think I may have it. I did the throttle crack of 0.8% with no changes to the tune and it fired and died twice. Adjusted the friction and reduced the decay then also changed up the desired air flow a tad. It fired right up but I did just try starting it 5 minutes prior. The idle did seem to hang a bit...1400 start up, went down to 1100 then would hang around 1400 when i reved it and slowly drop back down. I saw around 850rpm but it wasnt fully warmed up yet (desired 750 but also have some rpm adders in the tune until its warm). So I may need to pull a bit out or the desired or adjust the blade a bit less.

Jay

[joecar]

Post log so we can also see ignition timing.

[jay_rich]

No log to post but I think I nailed it. I noticed with messing with my IAC and tps I had a high idle until it war warmed and it was running 10 degrees timing. So I looked at the idle over speed error from factory pulls a ton of timing if the idle is high. Dropped that a but and it made it better but still a hard start. After adjusting a few things and making it worse I decided screw it. Let's toss in a stock ls1 VE and cranking VE. Fired up and ran perfect. Let it cool for another 2h or so and it's currently -3*c and it fired right up. It seems to crank. Longer but fires and idle. So now I need to start over with a new auto VE. I'm also going to look into the commanded afr. I know it's modified from stock. Maybe i have been tuning to my o2 Corrections to an improper number this whole time. I've been pulling from my VE all the time BC my ltft were always pulling. I may mess around a but again tomorrow. But next week I'll be in Chicago for a few days then dealing with my wife's car at the body shop since she was rear ended. May not get any seat time for a week or so.

Jay

[statesman]

Maybe i have been tuning to my o2 Corrections to an improper number this whole time. I've been pulling from my VE all the time BC my ltft were always pulling. I may mess around a but again tomorrow.

Your minimum transient fueling is too high. You need to search this site for the {B9021} cax file. It will give you access to that parameter in your tune. Lower the minimum transient fueling to the same value that you've set in B4003 and B4004.

[jay_rich]

working on that now. I cant seem to get the cax file to work. keeps giving me that error to turn on the option etc.

Fired it up first thing this morning, ran like a champ! I cant believe all that BS from not using a factory VE. I even did an autoVE on the car last year. Must have been all over the map from having my fuel pressure a tad higher.

Jay

[statesman]

When you put the cax file in your calibrations folder it will then show up as an extra parameter in your tune file under Fuel > Injectors > Parameters.

[jay_rich]

I put the one for mine in the cax folder and renamed it 02020003 and it prompts me to go to view - properties etc. I edit to allow the cax. But b9012 etc doesn't pop up

Jay

[statesman]

If you can't get it to work properly then post your current tune file and I'll lower your transient fueling for you.

[jay_rich]

sorry just noticed it is popping up in the tune.

Transient Fuel I dont see B9021 but have..

B9001
B9002
B9004
B9005
B9008
B9009
B9010
B9013
B9014

19442

[statesman]

Now that's interesting. Can you post the cax file you downloaded?

[statesman]

Here's your tune with the transient fueling fixed.

[jay_rich]

Here is the one I used. Date was October 20th 2008 from jocar. Newest one I found.

All I did was change the 156 onr to 02020003

19444

[statesman]

Yeah, that's an old one.

Download this one in case you ever want to change the minimum transient fueling....

https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?17699-need-B9021-for-01250003&p=159352&viewfull=1#post159352

I'm giving you the link to the post because it has 3 different cax files and that post tells you which one is for which OS.

[statesman]

That old one will probably clash with the parameters now available in EFILive so get rid of it.

[jay_rich]

Awesome thanks. So I downloaded the proper one. That one has the B9021. but none of the transient fueling.

Changed B9021- to 0.592xxx to match my B4003 and 4004

What exactly does this do anyways?

Jay

[jay_rich]

Well the b9021 made it worse. Or the 3.996 threshold did.could not crack the throttle without it backfiring and trying to die.

Went back to 1.9xxx threshold and no b9021 and it runs mint.

Jay

[statesman]

It's the 3.996 threshold which made it run worse. Put B9021 back to 0.592 so you don't get a rich decel. B9021 is another minimum pulse like B4003, it limits how short a pulse can be.

Can you post a log?

[statesman]

Post a log of it running with your current settings. Make sure that you're logging injector pulsewidths.

[jay_rich]

Sorry was out of town for work. I have a few logs but changed some airflow settings back to stock as it was holding a high idle in park. All seems good now. Put the B9021 back in with the threshold at 1.9. Tip in a great etc.

Here is the warm idle after changing the startup friction and pulling a tad out of the desired airflow when warm. I was messing with the throttle crack a tad midway through the log. that would be the jump in RPM Seemed like I took a tad too much out of the desired so it was idling a bit under desired.

Pulse widths around 1.8ms

Thanks for all the help!

Jay

[statesman]

I had a look at your log and your trims are pulling a lot of fuel trying to keep you at stoich. You might have to do a bit more tuning in the idle area.

[joecar]

BTW: A0012, A0013: set these to 511 mph (i.e. max - 1) to put those in range.

[joecar]

HO/LO spark tables have way too much timing for boost.

edit: ah, I see A0010 subtracts timing out.

edit2: HO/LO spark tables still have too much timing for NA.

[joecar]

C6001: set P0101,2,3 to A:1-Trip.

[joecar]

Can you post your .cax file here.

[polarischevy05]

how is this tune coming looking to do build like this.

[jay_rich]

I never did get it fixed just kinda felt with it. It would seem to get better then a week later the same issue. I don't think it's tune related. I took my tune and put it in my buddies car as a base tune and he has zero issues. I recently switched to t56 and I'm going to ms3-gold since I'm not worried about trans control. I'm thinking it may be crank sensor related or something. Well see once I swap.

Jay