Afr fluctuations with olsd

[johnj]

Hi all. I have been battling this issue for months now and still can not seem to figure it out. My issue is that the car starts and runs great and idles right around 15.0 but as it warms up eventually gets to about 12.8. I first thought it was something that i had messed up in my tune so I decided i would bite the bullet and buy a tune from a very well known reputable tuner. Well it still does it. I contacted the tuner i bought the tune from and he says that running in olsd that the car will only run off the main ve table so there has to be something else going on with the fuel system. Is he right about the ve table that nothing else will add or subtract when running in olsd? I can post logs if this is not the case and there are other factors that will effect idle afr. Car runs perfect otherwise.


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[statesman]

My issue is that the car starts and runs great and idles right around 15.0 but as it warms up eventually gets to about 12.8. I first thought it was something that i had messed up in my tune so I decided i would bite the bullet and buy a tune from a very well known reputable tuner. Well it still does it. I contacted the tuner i bought the tune from and he says that running in olsd that the car will only run off the main ve table so there has to be something else going on with the fuel system. Is he right about the ve table that nothing else will add or subtract when running in olsd?

No, he is wrong... and I don't care how well known or reputable he is, if he can't fix your issue then he is a useless tuner and shouldn't be selling tunes.

[johnj]

Well thanks for the reply. Any thoughts on correcting my issue then?


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[statesman]

Well thanks for the reply. Any thoughts on correcting my issue then?


Yeah... fix your Injector Data, then fix your Charge Temperature Blending table, then retune your VE table.

It's not easily done... which is why your tuner blew you off.

[johnj]

Thanks a bunch I will give that a go.


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[joecar]

Post tune and log files.

[johnj]

Are there any certain pids you would like me to monitor


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[joecar]

eqivratio
longft1/2
dynair
dyncylair
tp
rpm
sparkadv
kr
ect
iat
ibpw1/2

edit: and my all uppercase got reformatted to lower.

[johnj]

I have finally gotten some free time to get a log of the car idling. Heres the log and tune.19984 19985

[joecar]

I have finally gotten some free time to get a log of the car idling. Heres the log and tune.19984 19985

Your wideband AFR is fluctuating just a little, that's not so bad... the problem is that it is too rich, wb 12.2 vs commanded 14.5.

Is your VE table corrected...?

[johnj]

Ive done several auto ve's and it still continues to drop afr at idle. It runs and drives great just the idle afr starts around 15 and drops to that 12.8


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[joecar]

VE table, there is a nasty hole right where it idles...

19986

but there is extra fuel coming from somewhere...

[johnj]

Yea thats the only way i can get it to idle that lean is with that deep pocket. I know its not right but thats the only way i have found to make it idle above 12.8 until it warms up.


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[johnj]

Then it just continues to drop after that. Im thinking its got to be in the injector data tables but i dont know where to start. Thats why i paid for a professional tune to try to get a good base that i could just modify the driving areas of my ve table. But that seems to have back fired on me.


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[LastCall]

What injectors do you have?

[johnj]

Siemans deka 80lb


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[LastCall]

I have the data for the Deka 80's, I'll compare to the data in the tune you posted tonight when i get home. One thought, do you have the min pulse IPW cax? The PCM might not be able to command a small enough PW to get to 14.7 at idle.

[johnj]

No i dont have the cax. And thank you for taking the time to look at the injector data


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[LastCall]

No i dont have the cax. And thank you for taking the time to look at the injector data


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No problem. The injector values are different than what I have. I have a few questions; 1) What is your base fuel pressure? 2) Is it manifold referenced? The reason I ask, the values you have look like for a vacuum reference return style fuel system with a base pressure of 43 (3 bar) - flat injector flow.

The forum will not allow the upload of a CAX file so I would either search for it or you can send me a PM with your email address and I'll send it over to you.

[johnj]

Fuel pressure is base for stock truck rails so like 55 psi at idle an i believe it goes up from there


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[LastCall]

Then I would scale the injectors for the 4 bar fuel pressure. You will likely need to redo your airflow tables.

Here is a link to the cax files, instructions are in there.

.cax file updates
https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=9143

[joecar]

To upload a cax file to the forum, enclose it in a zip file, or more simply append .txt to its file name...

e.g. 12212156.cax.txt

[johnj]

Ok so i have the cax file in the calibrations folder and its showing up in the tune. Do i need to full flash it or just a cal flash


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[joecar]

For injector tables (e.g. B9021) a cal-only flash is sufficient.


( B9100 Lean Cruise needs a full flash )

[johnj]

Ok thank you i will try the new flash tomorrow


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[LastCall]

What is the current value? Might start with a value like .8 or .9 and work down from there.

[johnj]

B9021 min transient pulsewidth is at .121584 that is the new cax table. And my b4003 min injector pulsewidth table has been set at .759875 from the get go before the cax. Do you think I need to change either of those?


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[LastCall]

It must have defaulted to that value. I doubt the injector can be controlled at such a small PW. I think .8-.9 should be sufficient.

[johnj]

Which one b9021 or b4003?


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[LastCall]

B9021

[johnj]

Ok so i have finally gotten a chance to load the new tune in and it still idles at like 2.3 ms injector pulse width. Which with the cax it should be down around that .8 mark like i have it set at right?


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[joecar]

Did parameter B9021 show up in your tune...?

[johnj]

Yes its there set to .8. Tried cal flashing and full flashing just in case


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[LastCall]

Other factors affect the pulse width like the airmass calculation from the VE table and injector data. See if reducing VE values affects PW.

[johnj]

This thing still will not control afr at idle. I am completely lost on this thing. Any other thoughts? Heres the latest log. I will pm the latest tune if anyone needs to see it. LastCall yes the pulse width does change with the ve adjustment.20073 20074

[statesman]

I will pm the latest tune if anyone needs to see it.

Why don't you just post your latest tune file?

[johnj]

Latest tune is posted now


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[LastCall]

I didn't see it posted.

[johnj]

in post 35 it says rambler new tune 12.ctz That is it

[LastCall]

This thing still will not control afr at idle. I am completely lost on this thing. Any other thoughts? Heres the latest log. I will pm the latest tune if anyone needs to see it. LastCall yes the pulse width does change with the ve adjustment.20073 20074

I know the AFR at start up was in the 14's, but it was only there for a few seconds, and the IPW was the same at start up as it was when idling (about 2.15 MS). The IPW likely needs to be in the 1.6-1.8 range to get the 14.5 AFR. Look at table B4005, those values don't look right. I think they should be much lower. As a test, you can 0 out the table and see the effect on IPW at idle. Also, smooth out the VE table in the idle region (400-1200 rpm). .8 values look low, but blend them into the table so there are no huge peaks and valleys where you idle. That will prevent huge swings with MAP and RPM changes near the idle region.

What cam do you have?

[johnj]

Isky triple 12. 212/212/112 .585 lift. Ok I will give that a try. thanks so much for everyones help. I appreciate it so much i have been battling this for almost 6mos.


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[johnj]

Had a few mins spare time this morning so i tried zeroing out that table and smoothing out the ve table. Still will not maintain. Starts around 14.0 and drops to about 12.2 at the end of the log. 20082 here is the latest log

[johnj]

Anybody have any other ideas.


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[johnj]

No one???


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[joecar]

Had a few mins spare time this morning so i tried zeroing out that table and smoothing out the ve table. Still will not maintain. Starts around 14.0 and drops to about 12.2 at the end of the log. 20082 here is the latest logSorry, I've been running a bit (a lot) behind.

Please post the tune file that produced this log.

[johnj]

Here is the tune for the log file Joe.20119

[johnj]

Anyone?


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[joecar]

I looked at your log file, and I could not see anything in the tune file that would directly cause what you're seeing.

Possible cause: are the injector tables correct (B3701, B4003, B4004, B4005, B4006, B9021)...?

Try putting negative values in B4005 (say -1.5 ms) and take another log.

[johnj]

I am fairly sure the injector data is correct as it is from a known good tune that isn't having this problem. I will give the -1.5 a try. Hopefully that helps cause I am totally out of ideas


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[johnj]

Tried the new tune this morning it wouldnt run at -1.5. Finally got it down to a -.4 and it fires right up at 15.6 afr but still the same thing once warm its in the lower 13s. Do i need to add airflow above 150*f or is this just something i have to live with running open loop speed density


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[statesman]

Turn your temperature blending back on (set B0109 to 'Yes') and restore {B4901} and {B4902} to factory values.

[joecar]

Turn your temperature blending back on (set B0109 to 'Yes') and restore {B4901} and {B4902} to factory values.+1
Good call :cheers:

( lol, I had assumed those were stock )

[johnj]

So I give up. This thing still after a month of messing with it daily. I can not get it to maintain afr from one day to the next. Some days it may start at 15.5 and get to 13.8. Other days it may start at 14.6 go up to 15.2 idle there for a cpl mins then drop to 13.2. Anybody have any other ideas im ready to throw in the towel.


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[joecar]

Did you do this:


Turn your temperature blending back on (set B0109 to 'Yes') and restore {B4901} and {B4902} to factory values.

[johnj]

Yes the tune is exactly the same just with the temp blending back on.


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[statesman]

Post your current tune file and a log of the current tune with the AFR fluctuating.

[johnj]

Any other pids you want to see other than what is in my previous tune


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[johnj]

Sorry log


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[johnj]

Here is the latest tune20253 and log 20254

[statesman]

Okay, now do another log for me.... this time when you start the engine up and start logging, I'd like you to tap the throttle just after you start logging and then log the idle for 5-10 minutes.

[johnj]

here you go i started it waited for the idle to stabilize and then blipped the throttle. 20257

[statesman]

Is your fuel pressure manifold referenced?

[johnj]

Yes its factory truck rails with the vacuum line hooked up still


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[statesman]

Your Injector Flow Rate table {B4001} is wrong. With vacuum referenced fuel pressure, this table should be flat (same value in all cells). I would also zero out all values in Small Pulse Adjust {B4005}.

Fix these tables and then retune your VE table.

[johnj]

Your Injector Flow Rate table {B4001} is wrong. With vacuum referenced fuel pressure, this table should be flat (same value in all cells). I would also zero out all values in Small Pulse Adjust {B4005}.

Well i fixed these tables and readjusted the ve and it is still doing it. No matter what changes i make it will always eventually start out at my desired or a little leaner and then as it gets warm the afr starts dropping. Is there a table i can change to keep it from adding fuel with temperature. I have tried completely zeroing out the temp blend tables and that had no effect on the way it got richer as it got up to temp. Ive never seen an injector go rich with heat normally they go lean so i dont think its an injector issue. I am seriously at whits end on this damn thing and now its starting to get towards putting it up for the winter. Haha will it ever end. Thanks for all your help so far guys i really appreciate it.

[statesman]

Is there a table i can change to keep it from adding fuel with temperature.

Yes, but you have to work backwards... in other words, you need to add more fuel when cold and then reduce the amount of added fuel as it warms up. You do this in table {A0008}. You'll then need to tune your VE to the new fueling.

[johnj]

So basically that would be the same issue i am having now just backwards so its not worth messing with that. Any other thoughts?


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[statesman]

No, if done correctly it will cancel out the issue you're having now.

[johnj]

Ok i will give it a shot thank you very much.


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[statesman]

Do you understand how it works?

If you're fueling is at 14.7 cold and makes its way to 12.2 warm, then you want to increase your fueling so you start off at 12.2 cold and stay there as it warms up. You then redo your VE table to 14.7 and you'll then have 14.7 from cold to warm.

[johnj]

Yep i get the just of it. I will have to play with it until i get it fixed up


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[statesman]

Yes, just gradually increase the lower temperature cells of {A0008} until you get consistent AFR as it warms up. That table should end up as a downward slope as temps increase.

[johnj]

Ok i will give it a shot when i get home from work tonight. Thanks again


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[johnj]

Ok so this thing is still doing it. I have been doing some reading on other sites and some guys running way bigger injectors than me are having no issues maintaining idle using hp tuners. They recommend lowering the min transient fuel table but it doesnt look like we have that table and to change the injector timing with the spread sheet. I read the sticky on b3702 table but not sure exactly what to do there. Can one of you guys point me in the right direction?


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[joecar]

Post tune/log files.

[johnj]

Can i attempt to run closed loop off of one o2 sensor? My one manifold has a bung in it still and i can swipe an o2 sensor off of one of my spare engines.


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[joecar]

No, CL requires both front O2 sensors.

[johnj]

Ok thanks Joe. I guess ill try to put another bung in the passenger side manifold and run 2 o2s since i cant get this thing to work right in ol


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[5.7ute]

Ok so this thing is still doing it. I have been doing some reading on other sites and some guys running way bigger injectors than me are having no issues maintaining idle using hp tuners. They recommend lowering the min transient fuel table but it doesnt look like we have that table and to change the injector timing with the spread sheet. I read the sticky on b3702 table but not sure exactly what to do there. Can one of you guys point me in the right direction?


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The minimum transient fuel table is B9021. They have it labelled and scaled incorrectly.