Questions about WideBand 02 Sensors

[Mr. Smith]

1) If I bought/had a Bosch 17025 or 17123 wideband 02 sensor (LSU 4.9 5-wire), could I connect that to any random wideband controller (sold new on ebay)?

2) My LS powered car has 2 narrowband 02's before the cats. Where should I mount the wideband (and narrowbands)?

3) Is it 100% okay to just have 1 wideband 02 sensor hooked up (along with the 2 narrowband 02's), or would 2 be better?

[ScarabEpic22]

1) Needs to have a kit to work properly, just hooking up sensors to any WBO2 controller likely will not work well (if at all). I'd suggest Innovate, AEM, or NGK/ECM (think Ballinger makes them now?).
2) Leave front NB02s intact, best position for WBO2 is pre-cat if possible, 12-18" downstream of engine. Look at what the WBO2 kit you purchase recommends, they vary slightly. Post-cat is ok, just will be a laggier signal so steady state tuning is even more critical.
3) Yes, most people just use 1 WBO2 to tune a vehicle. If you're concerned you might have a bank to bank difference, then 2 could be used to sanity check. Or once you're done tuning, just swap the WBO2 to the other bank and log again. LTFT/STFTs will help you out here during part throttle and idle, if you're within a few % then should be good. Make sure you tune for the leaner bank.

[joecar]

The wideband sensor requires a wideband controller, as Erik said above.



Pre-cat allows the wideband to see O2 content before catalyst has modified it; catalyst modifies O2 content at anything other than WOT.

Post-cat is ok if you're only tuning WOT, but you probably want to tune PT also.

Keep in mind that you want to disable CL/trims while you're tuning.

( also keep in mind that some wideband controllers provide narrowband outputs that can be used to drive the PCM's NBO2 input )



I've been logging 2 widebands, I have my calc pids setup to dynamically use the leanest wideband (i.e. on the fly)

( of course if you see them diverging more than a few % then you know something is gone wrong )

[Mr. Smith]

Thanks guys.

The reason why I (REALLY) want to use Bosch wb's is because I can get used ones for free (which I just realised last night) and actually found x4 Bosch 17123 (short lead) sensors today at my work (though the wires/plugs have been cut off on 2 of them.. spewing).

If car manufacturers use them from factory, I don't see why I can't use them on my car (with EFI Live). I'm no 02 sensor expert, but I think as long as it's a 4.9 LSU wb, then it's all good. Like, all the WB controller picks up from the sensor is (0-5v) voltage, right?? I don't understand why any 4.9 LSU wideband 02 sensor won't work with any modern wideband controller. It would be like a water/oil temp sensor not being compatible with a gauge....... right???
Has anyone here tried random wb's with their controller to see if they all work okay? I'm guessing many. Any not work?
I've read posts here about some wb's not being as accurate as others...
Has anyone here used a Bosch 17025 / 17123 02 sensor with EFI Live???????? That's what I wanted to know haha..

Also, I read somewhere that widebands from Innovate are the same shyt you find in late model 1.8L VW's.. and it wouldn't surprise me if other aftermarket 02sensor-related companies do the same.

What are your thoughts? Anyone using wb's from stock/factory cars?


My cats are about a foot away from my short headers / engine.. should I mount my wideband like an inch in front of my narrowband and a bit to the side of it (so as not to block the NB...)?

Okay, I'll just hook up 1 WB. I've already logged my fuel trims with another scanner and the banks are pretty/very similar. I'll go over everything again to see which bank was the leanest..


Btw Joe, I know the WB will need a controller.... but I want to know if any controller will perfectly work with my Bosch 02's.. and if so, which one.. who's done it before.... Surely I can't be the only one to think of using 4.9 LSU Bosch widebands off factory cars..
My widebands came off a VE Commodore.. There must be heaps of Aussies with VE's running EFI Live.... did you guys try your stock wb's??? Hmm... can you hook up the stock controller to EFI Live??

Scarab, I'd rather not buy a kit in order to save around $260. If I can use and get used 02 WB's and controllers for free.. then why would I spend $300+ on a kit? All I'll hopefully need to buy is a cable or 2.

Also Joe, I have no idea what CL/trims are / stand for.. but I'll remember to disable it.
Apologies for long post and random thoughts.. I'm in a rush..

[joecar]

LSU4.9 and LSU4.2 sensors need controllers (drivers) appropriate to each.

e.g. Innovate LC-1 drives LSU4.2 sensors, and LC-2 drives LSU4.9 sensors (i.e. the controller requires internal software to work with the LSU type)...

each controller's manufacturer specs indicate which LSU they are compatible with.


GM ECM's drive narrowband O2's... VW ECM's drive wideband O2's like the LSU4.2 and LSU4.9

( i.e. that's how the ECM's internal software is designed )


The O2's you got from a Commodore would be NBO2's, right...? They have a 3-pin or 4-pin plug on their pigtail.

LSU4.2 and LSU4.9 have a 6-pin or 8-pin connector on their pigtail.


Yes, other people have borrowed VW WBO2's for use with their WB controllers.


CL = close loop
trim = long and short term fuel trimming (in CL), you don't want these correcting fueling beneath you (i.e. your wideband will no need for correction).

[Mr. Smith]

Thanks a lot, Joe.

The 02 sensors I got today off a VE Commodore are the Bosch 17123's (wideband LSU 4.9, 5 wire...).
So at this stage it looks like I'll need to buy a LC-2 controller.. unless someone here tells me I'd be able to use a stock VE Commodore (or other car) 02 sensor controller.. Maybe I should give it a go.. maybe it doesn't even have a standalone controller?? Anyone know where it's mounted?

Oh - closed loop.. okay thanks.


Btw other cars with the Bosch 17025 wideband 5 wire 02 sensor =
Chev Cruze 2011-15 1.4L/1.8L/2L NA and T
Ford Escape 2011-15 1.6L/2L/2.5L/3L NA and T
Ford Fiesta 2011-15 1L/1.6L NA and T
Ford Focus 2011-14 2L NA and T
Honda Accord 2011-15 2L/2.4L/3.5L NA
Honda Civic 2011-15 1.5L1.8L/2.4L NA
Honda CR-V 2011-15 2.4L NA
Honda Odyssey 2011-15 3.5L NA
Toyota Camry 2011-15 2.5L/3.5L NA
Toyota Corolla 2011-15 1.8L/2.4L NA
Toyota RAV4 2011-15 2.5L/3.5L NA

[joecar]

What year is that VE Commodore...?

What engine does it use...?

[Mr. Smith]

The VE I got the sensors off was a 2006. All I know about the engine is it's a V6. So it's either a 3L SIDI, 3.6L SIDI or 3.6L Alloytec.
It's still at my work. I can find out exactly what type of engine it is tomorrow if you like.. but I'm guessing Holden use wb's for all their VE engines.

Also, I took a look at the wiring harness (the engine/trans/loom has been removed and is sitting on a bench nearby the VE) and there doesn't seem to be a wideband controller. I believe the wires from the 02's go straight to the ECM/PCM. So I'm thinking.. do the late model Commodore guys (and others with wb's installed from factory) using EFI Live even need to buy aftermarket wideband sensor controller kits?

[joecar]

If the ECM uses a WB rather than a NB, then it can trim fueling in all modes (rather than in PT only with a NB)...

so yes, in this case you would not really need an external WB, you would use the ECM's trims to correct the airmass/airflow tables.


I did not know GM was using WB's...

[Mr. Smith]

Thanks. I think I'm gonna bite the bullet and buy this in a few weeks http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3844-INNOVATE-MOTORSPORTS-MTX-L-Wideband-Air-Fuel-Ratio-AFR-UEGO-Gauge-Kit/172356719421?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3Dcb655a0b9a6f4982941 757daf77f1a36%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26 sd%3D272394240430 at least I'll have spare wb's..
It looks like the latest Innovate product and they reckon it has a built-in (to the A/F gauge) "Direct Digital Wideband Controller". Sounds good. Less weight, less cables, less headaches...
What do you (and others) think of it? Anyone using one?

And also, going back to my long #4 post, half way down.. is mounting the wideband an inch away from the narrowband okay? The narrowband is mounted 12 o'clock and I'm thinking of mounting the wb around 2 o'clock and an inch closer to my block-huggers (and almost under them).

[joecar]

There are people here using the Innovate MTX...

V2 can read the MTX using serial comms.

[joecar]

...
And also, going back to my long #4 post, half way down.. is mounting the wideband an inch away from the narrowband okay? The narrowband is mounted 12 o'clock and I'm thinking of mounting the wb around 2 o'clock and an inch closer to my block-huggers (and almost under them).

That should be ok.

[Tre-Cool]

Having used just about every wideband on the market, I would no longer buy innovate, or plx products.

AEM seems to be the go apart from the slow response rate on serial data for the moment. So i'm predominantly using the ALM Ecotrons line as the serial data is blistering fast.

[joecar]

Very interesting wideband...

does this already communicate with V2's serial comms port...?

or are you running it on the CAN lan/bus...?


http://www.ecotrons.com/products/accurate_lambda_meter/



(http://www.ecotrons.com/products/accurate_lambda_meter/)

[Dewglass]

And also, going back to my long #4 post, half way down.. is mounting the wideband an inch away from the narrowband okay? The narrowband is mounted 12 o'clock and I'm thinking of mounting the wb around 2 o'clock and an inch closer to my block-huggers (and almost under them).

The manufacturer of the kit will have a recommended distance to mount the O2 sensor. To close or far away from the manifold(s)/turbo can affect the accuracy of the readings. Read the install instructions! :good:

[Tre-Cool]

Very interesting wideband...

does this already communicate with V2's serial comms port...?

or are you running it on the CAN lan/bus...?


http://www.ecotrons.com/products/accurate_lambda_meter/



(http://www.ecotrons.com/products/accurate_lambda_meter/)

Yeah Paul's already added in the serial protocol support a while back.

I replaced the old as hell sensor on my dyno with with the LED display version. I feed the analog line into the dyno machine and have the serial cable i can plug into the v2 unit.

I've got a few more units i have for in-car mounting also. Good thing is they work well on diesels too because they show upto lambda 2 and beyond. (though it's really the 4.9 sensor that's the limiting factor)

[Mr. Smith]

Thanks everyone.

Tre-Cool have you used this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3844-INNOVATE-MOTORSPORTS-MTX-L-Wideband-Air-Fuel-Ratio-AFR-UEGO-Gauge-Kit/172356719421?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3Dcb655a0b9a6f4982941 757daf77f1a36%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26 sd%3D272394240430 ?

I'd like to know who owns one, what they think about it, if they had/have any problems with it...........

[Tre-Cool]

Yes, i have 2 in my drag car & 2 in my brothers, i.e 1 in each side of the extractors. they are the same as that one which uses the older 4.2 sensors and they are prone to dieing or requiring frequent free air re-calibrations. Which is why i stopped buying them. The newer ones are using the 4.9 sensors but after all the E8 errors they experiences i moved on.

So personally i only use them as a reference/safety check for forced induction cars. I'm moving away from using them for tuning. I've even just installed one of my alm's to compare against the 2 mtx-l's in my drag car this week.

they did however get me to an 8.89 in a vx commodore, but i'd battery dramas last season so i was loosing data from then when the battery voltage dropped off. im hoping to go quicker this season.

[joecar]

Yeah Paul's already added in the serial protocol support a while back.

I replaced the old as hell sensor on my dyno with with the LED display version. I feed the analog line into the dyno machine and have the serial cable i can plug into the v2 unit.

I've got a few more units i have for in-car mounting also. Good thing is they work well on diesels too because they show upto lambda 2 and beyond. (though it's really the 4.9 sensor that's the limiting factor)Ok, I saw that ALM is one of the wideband types for serial comms.


In the ALM user manual I noticed it mentioned a CAN interface... does this mean that V2 can connect to it using the upcoming CAN ability (like the AEM)...?

[Tre-Cool]

It technically should if you get one of the can versions as ALM allows you to create a custom user broadcast.

[Mr. Smith]

Fookin 'ell. I didn't notice MTX-L takes 4.2's. Fook dat den. Thanks for saving me from buying it.

Tre-Cool do you think your 02 sensor/controller problems are because of the excess heat in your engine bay and pipes + NVH + fighter-jet-like G-forces?
My LS is from a VX fyi.

I checked that Ecotrons link and oh yeah.. me want. Just emailed them a couple questions..

[joecar]

Yeah, the Ecotrons looks very good.

[Mr. Smith]

Yeah, the Ecotrons looks very good.

Oh yeh, I was sold and got hard as soon as I saw those digital gauges (BLUE LED's FTW) and read that they use 4.9's..

Would it be possible to connect the V2 scanner (which I'll hopefully receive from DrkPhx some day) + the Econtrons controller to this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Universal-Apexi-Auto-Timer-For-NA-Turbo-Black-Pen-Control-w-BLUE-Digital-LED-/181796823754? which I bought and am waiting on, instead of their gauge?
Forgot to ask them about the turbo timer.

[joecar]

The ALM is already supported by V2 serial comms.

The question is, will the ALM's CAN lan/bus interface work with V2's upcoming CAN lan/bus interface (like the AEM).

[Mr. Smith]

O...K...:confused:
But can I get my turbo timer which has a digital A/F gauge on it to show me what my wideband sensor / Ecotrons controller is reading, instead of my narrowbands? How would the turbo timer get the wideband signal??? Would there even be any difference between what the wideband and narrowbands would show on the gauge?
+
What are the advantages or what's the point of this upcoming V2 CAN lan/bus interface? Nevermind.. I remembered after re-reading what I previously read on that Ecotrons page. Is it possible to cross out text here on efilive?

[joecar]

O...K...:confused:
But can I get my turbo timer which has a digital A/F gauge on it to show me what my wideband sensor / Ecotrons controller is reading, instead of my narrowbands? How would the turbo timer get the wideband signal??? Would there even be any difference between what the wideband and narrowbands would show on the gauge?
+

I don't know the answer to that.



What are the advantages or what's the point of this upcoming V2 CAN lan/bus interface? Nevermind.. I remembered after re-reading what I previously read on that Ecotrons page. Is it possible to cross out text here on efilive?
V2 serial comms pid update rate is something like 10-15 times per second.
CAN lan/bus pid update rate is something like 25-40 times per second.

( yes, you can edit your own posts )

[Mr. Smith]

Yeh thanks Joe. I had already edited my post.. The underlined writing in red is what I wanted to put a line over (like to "cross it out".. but it doesn't seem we can do that here on this forum.

I had a chance at getting x2 '07 VE Commo 4.9 LSU widebands a couple hours ago, but the only way you can remove them is if you remove the damn engine/trans. :mad: Imagine having to remove your engine/trans just to replace an 02 sensor or cat.

[joecar]

...

I had a chance at getting x2 '07 VE Commo 4.9 LSU widebands a couple hours ago, but the only way you can remove them is if you remove the damn engine/trans. :mad: Imagine having to remove your engine/trans just to replace an 02 sensor or cat.
I would make the engineering design team each take a prototype car home each weekend with the task of doing specific DIY maintenance tasks and to report back on Monday morning the level of difficulty encountered.

[Mr. Smith]

I would make the engineering design team each take a prototype car home each weekend with the task of doing specific DIY maintenance tasks and to report back on Monday morning the level of difficulty encountered.

LOL
I'm sure they'd call in sick each monday.

Econtron hasn't replied to my email yet. :ermm:

[Mr. Smith]

My bad. Ecotron emailed me back, but it went to my Junk folder. They were quick to reply.

I/we can buy their controller kit without an 02 sensor fyi.
They asked me if I "need CAN bus or RS232 ?" and if I "need 0-5V analog signal output of Lamba for ECU ?".

I don't bloody know, I was asking them what I need :throw: bah

[joecar]

Can they provide all 3 (CAN bus, RS232, 0-5V analog)...?

[joecar]

Also, ask them how quickly (how many times per second) their RS232 can be polled/queried/sampled...?

And, same question of their CAN bus.

[Tre-Cool]

I believe from previous inquiry. you can only get it with can bus & analog or Serial & analog. let me dig up my email.

hmm i dunno actually as my inquiry was for serial for the alm-2 which was 2 widebands in 1 unit.

"Sorry, the ALM-CAN II just supports the CAN function, doesn't support serial optput now.
You can see our ALM II"

[Tre-Cool]

kind of related, maybe not but last night i thought i'd test to see if i could daisy chain the mtx-l serial data and you can.

I just cut the plug off the programming cable so i could use the male end into the OUT plug of 1 wideband and then stuck the raw wires into the IN plug of the first 1. Then Hey presto i get data from both into efilive.

[Mr. Smith]

Can they provide all 3 (CAN bus, RS232, 0-5V analog)...?

I have no idea.



Also, ask them how quickly (how many times per second) their RS232 can be polled/queried/sampled...?

And, same question of their CAN bus.

Sorry mate. I'm not going to email them again (unless I buy their wideband controller) especially regarding CAN bus, RS232... as they asked me if I needed CAN bus, RS232... and CAN bus, ALM-CAN, RS232, Lamda, serial output... is all Chinese to me :Eyecrazy:

[joecar]

...

Sorry mate. I'm not going to email them again (unless I buy their wideband controller) especially regarding CAN bus, RS232... as they asked me if I needed CAN bus, RS232... and CAN bus, ALM-CAN, RS232, Lamda, serial output... is all Chinese to me :Eyecrazy:

All these in one package...?

[Mr. Smith]

All these in one package...?
They asked me if I need "CAN bus or RS232" and if I need "0-5V analog signal output of Lamda for ECU" which I have no idea and after asking them what I need.. and you're asking me to ask them technical questions about the things that they don't know if I need and I don't know if I need or even are... my head just exploded.
Joe, you can easily email them whatever questions you have at [email protected] (their technical support email address).


At this stage, it doesn't look like I'm buying any wideband controller + EFI Live V2 because DrkPhx emailed me saying he's tired of waiting to receive my payment from Paypal.. even though we both have waited 16 days and he only had 5 more days to receive my money I sent him.. and he could've received the money in 7 days but chose the 21 days option.. and is now again saying he'll only send me the V2 if I pay him via Paypal Gift or Money Gram.. after finally agreeing to just let me pay him the normal Paypal way + sent him a $10US tip and paid for his Paypal fees.................

I knew it was a mistake, as did everybody I else I mentioned it to. Don't know what I was thinking. I guess I was desperate and wanted to save around $600.

[Mr. Smith]

At least I got some used 4.9 LSU widebands for free!!




:rolleyes:

[joecar]

...

Joe, you can easily email them whatever questions you have at [email protected] (their technical support email address).

...I'll do this.

[Mr. Smith]

Topic related question..

Why do people (on here, aftermarket wideband controller companies...) say to remove your widebands from your pipes when you're done tuning and to avoid driving for long distances with them installed.. as if 02 wideband sensors are so fragile?

I don't see widebands failing in factory cars after 10 years and over 200,000km's on the clock.
Then there's this.. "LSU 4.9 gets rid of the reference air, and therefore gets rid of the biggest failure mode. As a result, LSU 4.9 has a long life and can maintain the accuracy throughout the life." (compared to 4.2 LSU).

So could it be that everyone who had problems with their widebands were using inferior 4.2's and their aftermarket controllers were over or under heating them, causing them to prematurely fail? Seems so. Most aftermarket wideband controllers take 4.2's and I bet most of them don't control the temp perfectly which is crucial to sensor life (so I read).

[joecar]

Mostly it's because I don't want my customer to drive away with my wideband.

I used to leave my LC-1 on my TA until it was time for smog test (at which time I would swap the headers out).

[Mr. Smith]

Do you weld 02 sensor bungs in all the cars you tune or tell your customers to do it themselves or get it done elsewhere? Weird.. I don't ever remember seeing a tuner/mechanic weld WB sensor bungs into headers before tuning a car.

How about DIY/backyard tuners? Why do you remove your widebands? How many failed on you and what were they? Anyone else here?

And Joe, I'm curious.. what's with the Aussie flag? Are you an Aussie who moved to the U.S.?
Btw, I got 2 more used widebands today out of a VZ Commo. '05 or '06, forgot to check. I also worked on a 2006 Honda Accord today with a VTEC in it and noticed it didn't have any WB's. You'd think a VTEC Honda would have a more sophisticated/accurate engine management system than a V6 Commodore. I've always said Commodores were way-under-rated..

Oh ffs. I just wiped down and checked the VZ 5-wire WB's I got today and they're 4.2's. Maybe I can combine them to make a new 8.4 LSU 02. Yes.

[joecar]

I just use their existing NBO2 bung... I use widebands that also have NBO2 output ability, I usually switch between CL and non-CL during my tuning.


Yes, I was born/raised in the suburbs of Sydney... then 25 years ago I "temporarily" moved to Los Angeles, lol...


Yes, Commodores are underrated... non-car guys over here have no idea what they're looking at when they see a 2005/6 Pontiac GTO LS2.

[Mr. Smith]

Thanks Joe. Lucky you. I've always wanted to move to L.A. too.. but seems impossible to do unless you're rich and retired or find an American woman to marry. Wanna move to the Gold Coast now asap.

Oh yeah that's right.. temporarily use an existing NB bung.
At this stage I'm thinking of getting my car tuned by a tuner/shop :/
Would there be any advantage if I removed my 2 NB's and fitted 2 WB's in their place? Or would it just be a waste of time and money (making the wiring suit the 6 pin plugs, buying a wideband controller...)???

I just hate thinking that I have 2 shitty NB 02 sensors in my car and 2+ superior WB ones sitting in my bedroom sampling dust instead of my A/F ratio.

[joecar]

It's complicated... but I'd rather be on the Gold Coast at the moment.



If the ECM comes with NBO2's then it won't be able to run WBO2's.

[statesman]

At this stage I'm thinking of getting my car tuned by a tuner/shop :/
Would there be any advantage if I removed my 2 NB's and fitted 2 WB's in their place?

No.


I just hate thinking that I have 2 shitty NB 02 sensors in my car and 2+ superior WB ones sitting in my bedroom sampling dust instead of my A/F ratio.

If you intend on running the engine in closed loop, then those shitty NB 02 sensors will do a perfectly good job keeping your fueling at stoich.... probably even better than WB sensors.

[Doc]

[QUOTE=Mr. Smith;233138]Thanks guys.
The real reason why I (REALLY) want to use Bosch wb's is because I can get used ones for free (which I just realised last night) and actually found x4 Bosch 17123 (short lead) sensors today at my work (though the wires/plugs have been cut off on 2 of them.. spewing).

Sorry to bring this up from the dead. Just bored looking through old posts. I just wanted to point out that soldering, crimping a WB02 sensor wire(s)s is a recipe for disaster IMHO. A typical WB02 measures 0-5vdc. Mating two dissimilar metals will make a thermocouple effect exhibiting a voltage offset providing inaccurate readings. Your tuning efforts will only be as good as your experience using repeatable, low uncertainty, high quality equipment.

[dr.mike]

I wouldn't worry, too much, about the Seebeck effect, in this application. Plus, you will have the law of intermediate metals on your side :)