454 411 Swap

[Supercharged111]

I did a search and found nothing. I have a 97 3500 with a 454 and 2.3L Whipple with associated Whippletronics. As one can imagine, the potential is there but it doesn't hit as hard as I know it should, especially after driving a stock one with no blower. The plan is to upgrade injectors, ditch Whippletronics, and go full 411. Problem is the 454 never came in a 411, so while transferring timing tables and VE/MAF tables may be a 90% solution, I'm still concerned about cold start, idle, and all the little stuff that I don't know that I don't know if that makes sense. I know I'm not the first to do this, and I'm wondering if there are any threads I missed on my search that would be worth my time?

[ScarabEpic22]

I'm not super familiar with BBC, GM did offer the 8.1/496 BBC with the 0411 PCM in the Silverado/Sierras, so that's the base tune I'd start with. There's an 01 file on the DropBox repo that is for an 8.1, ideally an 02 OS would be the best but the 01 file is a pretty common OS (12208322) and the COS is 012700xx. It's with the Allison trans, so you'll need to seg swap the Transmission and Transmission Diagnostics segments for your 4L60/80E.

I know if your engine isnt DBW, all the 8.1s were so you'll have to see if you either want to go DBW and associated electronics OR just disable it in the tune.

[Supercharged111]

Hmm I was thinking of adapting the VE/MAF/timing values from a blackbox 454 tune, I imagine the units are the same but haven't verified. I could convert to DBW with a 6.5 diesel pedal, but at the moment I'll just need the thing running right ASAP. The trans shift points are so friggin weird right now I'm not sure if it's intentional or not. I have no control now, so will be better able to deal with this with data in front of me. I'm thinking whatever lies the Whippletronics are telling the stock PCM are to blame for the shift points (it appears to intercept the TPS), the truck seems mechanically sound. I do like the idea of cherry picking some of the start and idle bits from an 8.1 though, those ought to be WAY closer than the 5.7 values.

[ScarabEpic22]

I dont know if DBW is required or not to make it work properly, you could probably get away with your existing DBC.

To get a base map, for spark it'd be easy to interpolate the values. VE/MAF could be a bit harder, especially since we're not sure what the Whipple-tronics do for spark/fueling.

[Supercharged111]

Well IMO the VE/MAF would be no different than adding the 411 with the blower all at the same time. I'd use COS5 which has fuel and spark provisions for above atmospheric conditions, I figure I'll just pull 1 degree per pound of boost as a starting point with a stock spark map intended for 87 octane and 91 in the tank. While monitoring for knock, I ought to be able to safely bang out my calc.maft, the only real guess as a starting point would be the above atmospheric fueling. I think I'd command 11.5:1 AFR for WOT fueling and go from there. There's a good chance I'll hit the dyno when I feel satisfied with my work to see what the truck really wants for timing, unless it's so spark limited I can just tune off of the knock sensor.

[SS2win]

Wait now, is cos5 going to work with the vortec cam/crank sensors? Can you change the crank reluctor size?

[joecar]

Wait now, is cos5 going to work with the vortec cam/crank sensors? Can you change the crank reluctor size?COS5 is based on OS 12212156... does this OS work with the Vortec CKP/CMP signals...?

If not, then I can see the CKP relector from EFI Connection being used.

~Moderator~

[Supercharged111]

Wait now, is cos5 going to work with the vortec cam/crank sensors? Can you change the crank reluctor size?

If you use the Express van as a base tune yes it does work. I ASSume the reluctor is buried somewhere in the 1s and 0s there. If you wish to retain 4LO, an element of the late S10 is also required.

[joecar]

If you use the Express van as a base tune yes it does work. I ASSume the reluctor is buried somewhere in the 1s and 0s there. If you wish to retain 4LO, an element of the late S10 is also required.
Ok this ^ is the key.

~Moderator~

[SS2win]

I had wondered about that and was going to try it one day bit no need for SD and truck runs too well to mess with it. Thanks

[Supercharged111]

I snagged what appeared to be an LS1-B PCM from a late S10. Though it doesn't say 411, will it still work? I figured they were all the same anyway. I've attached a pic, it's SN 12576106.

[ScarabEpic22]

What year was it from (S10s were made until 04 IIRC) and did it have red/blue or blue/green wiring plugs? (not sure start year)-02 were 512kb LS1B aka 0411, 03-04 were 1MB LS1B.

[Supercharged111]

I wanna say it was red/blue. I did see a blue/green one in a Tahoe. I'll have to check again and see, but I could swear the red/blue is why I grabbed it. Is that the smoking gun?

[Supercharged111]

Looks like this is an 03-04 PCM so 1MB? Will this be an issue once I give it a full flash?

[ScarabEpic22]

You wont be able to run an 02 Express Van tune in it as that is a 512kb OS not a 1MB OS. I dont know if you can full flash a 512kb OS into a 1MB PCM and have it work, not sure what would happen.

I know that in 03, GM refreshed the Express and am 99% sure they stopped putting the 350 in them at this time. I dont think the low res crank is applicable in the 1MB PCMs for this reason.

Might be easier to just go back and grab the red/blue PCM so you know it'll work, you could burn a VIN license on the 1MB and not be able to use it which wouldnt be ideal.

[joecar]

I'm told to not cross OS sizes with PCM sizes... i.e. do not flash a 512K OS into a 1M PCM.

[Supercharged111]

Shooting to exchange the PCM this weekend or next. Wrapping up the cam swap/while I'm in there maintenance on the truck now.

[Supercharged111]

Alright! Been driving the truck since Tuesday and just exchanged for a 411. Gonna start building a starter tune, redo the drivers in the laptop, and see if I can't get this pile off that damn piggyback with the blower. Fuckin thing won't even build boost before a downshift and it's a big block. The tune makes it rev its ass off but the motor doesn't want to. Stupid stupid stupid.

[Supercharged111]

I am curious about B0101 vs B5913, i.e. the boost timing table in COS5 vs just letting the MAF handle it in the spark high octane table? Where I'm at atmoshperic is around 77kpa. I figured air was air as far as the MAF is concerned. If it's a hot day it'll draw less through and register less. If it's that hot, the IAT will bring things inline too.

[joecar]

Yes, correct, spark table axis reference is cylair [g] which is calculated from MAF... hot air is less dense, this shows up as a lower MAF [g/s].

[Supercharged111]

I doubt I'll even peg my MAF timing table, what then is the use of the boost timing table?

[joecar]

A0010 just modifies whatever timing is produced by the HO/LO timing tables (whether pegged at 1.2 g/cyl or not)...

i.e. it gives you the convenience of having NA timing table plus boost timing on top of that (actually minus).

[Supercharged111]

Let's use my half ton as an example. At WOT here, the MAF is only getting up to .6 so with boost it still won't peg that NA timing map at 1.2. These are draw through applications (TB and MAF) if that matters. What am I missing?

[joecar]

You're only pulling a maximum of 0.6 g/cyl...?

Have you scaled MAF/VE/IFR...?





~ posted by phone ~

[joecar]

The boost timing table allows you to specify timing to subtract per boost kPa.

The NA timing table specifies timing per g/cyl which is hard to correlate to boost kPa.

~ posted by phone ~

[Supercharged111]

I didn't get my calc.vet done before that truck went to the body shop, but it seems in line with the wife's 5.3 Envoy (.56) and the neighbor's LQ4 (.64). Remember that my half ton is just an NA 5.7 and my elevation is 6000'+. It just seems to me that if I use both tables, they'll pull timing on top of timing. I didn't think boost mattered really, air is air as it enters the engine, right? This is an area in which I've been heavily conflicted of late. How does 100kpa here (boosted) compare to 100kpa at sea level?

[joecar]

Ah, you're at 6000 ft, and we beach-city-dwelling-flatlanders tend to forget that there are souls living at elevation, my apologies... :doh:

since your elevation is preventing you from pegging the B5913/B5914 spark table axis, I would simply adjust A0010 to subtract a very small amount (if any)...

it now makes sense (I should have realized).

[Supercharged111]

So do I just need to figure out at what boost level the MAF pegs to better wrap my head around this? Will I have issues when I head to lower elevations? This is a tow pig, it'll have a 3000# camper in the bed and a 10000# trailer out back.

[joecar]

Yes, if possible find what boost pegs the g/cyl axis.

When you descend you will run into the problem that the g/cyl will be huge and you will need much more timing retard, so this is where A0010 will need to pull significant timing, especially since you're pulling a heavy load.

~ posted by phone ~

[Supercharged111]

I don't understand why A0010 and my main timing table aren't using the same units.

[joecar]

The GM tables use g/cyl.

A0010 uses kPa for your convenience.

~ posted by phone ~

[Supercharged111]

Well I did the swap and the truck doesn't run. It kinda wants to, but something is WAY off. I stole VE, IFR and and some other useful things from the 2000 7.4 tune and crank/start from the 2001 8.1 as it has the same OS and matched up. The black box was severely lacking in crank/start options. Truck ran fine before the swap, so mechanical is out. It runs pig rich when it runs and requires throttle to keep it running when it runs. No smoke though. I did advise the PCM of the increased cylinder volume so as far as I know this thing should just fire up and drive away. Here's where I'm at at the moment.

21862

[joecar]

If it's rich, try this:

unplug the MAF, start engine, verify you get a MAF DTC... see how it runs, if it's rich, then pull the VE down a little in this area.

[Supercharged111]

I really don't think VE should be to blame here? I had the low reference pin not fully seated for the IAT and MAP causing them both to peg, but the truck doesn't run much better with it seated and reading properly. I held the throttle open long enough to force the truck into closed loop to see if learning would help and it did but very marginally. LTFTs aren't crazy here, but this thing is really unhappy. I'm going to dump in the idle tables from the 8.1 and see if it helps. Once the RPMs climb it free revs much cleaner but it just hates life below 1500 RPM. The exhaust stinks like rotten eggs and there's a good bit of water dripping out of the tail pipe.

21864

[Supercharged111]

I'm on my 7th iteration here, the 8.1 idle tables helped some but the idle absolutely sucks and so does tip in just off idle. Once moving, the truck runs fine. I was able to address the overly rambunctious downshifting and added some timing, but I'm apprehensive to give it more because I know big blocks don't like a whole lot and I'm not sure if the knock sensor calibration can be trusted in this state. I need to compare my timing map to stock and see if it's half as aggressive as I thought it was. I'm getting zero KR at the moment. Far more important that that though is getting this idle figured out. I remember I tried a rafig on the 1500 and it claimed airflow was substantially lower than what was programmed and I could never figure out why. I fear I've put myself in the same corner now with this.

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21866

[SS2win]

Have you tried the tune I posted HERE (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?25771-96-vortec-7-4-0411-swapped-still-needs-a-basic-tune-that-works&p=239692&viewfull=1#post239692)? It did really well for me and I'm curious to see how it works for others. The reason I built it was the starter tune Lextech gave me ran pig rich. It's not perfect by any means but my truck has been running it close to a year without much hiccup. I'm just now getting ready to fine tune it bacause gas mileage sux. It does start and run every time though. Only issue I can recall is low range shift out of first occurs at 5500 rpm or thereabouts.

[SS2win]

Also, the biggest problem I had with my tune turned out to be injector scaling. I was running a set of ebay replacements that were originally volvo spec and they threw everything out. I installed a set of FMS 24lbs injectors, did the scaling, and that made the biggest difference in driveability. Other problems I had were due to bad sensors, the distributor was worn out, etc. 230k miles on my beast.

[Supercharged111]

I wanted to, but it's a .ctz file. I did what you did, but had to grab start and IAC stuff from 8.1. I couldn't take all the IAC idle stuff as some of it was clearly geared toward DBW.

[statesman]

Try these changes....

{B4105}... Set all values to 450
{B4108}... Set to Enable

[SS2win]

Sorry I'm on the road or I might be able to supply a .bin ... what are you programming with?

[Supercharged111]

I'm on 7.5.5 build 72. All I tune is my old garbage so no need for me to update. I was gonna ask how the hell to see what the idle wants but it looks like a peek at B4108 is going to tell me. If idle STFT is disabled, why does there appear to be LTFT active in that same RPM? Or does it just use the STFTs to influence LTFTs at idle when disabled without applying them? I'm used to a rich condition causing a fart smell to come out of the exhaust but judging by the O2s low voltage it seems a lean condition may do the same? I'm more familiar with what rich vs lean smells like on non-catted exhaust systems. A quick view of my most recent cruise logs are showing LTFTs in the 7-9 range so I'm thinking a quick easy 10% VE bump ought to help, no? I'm torn between making this run correctly on as stock of a tune as possible vs just hooking up the wideband and doing a calc.vet to cover something else up that I might be missing by using a small block PCM to run a big block. Like whatever is not allowing all my low load timing through, I think there are like 6 or 8 pids to log for that.

[Supercharged111]

So changing the O2 switchpoint to 450mV vs 480, adding 10% to VE, and enabling the idle STFT made a noticeable difference. Fuel trims are now in the -4-5 range which is a bigger swing than expected but the response is better and the TCC finally locks as I tuned it to. Seems it was misfiring a bit before. You know what I haven't done yet? A CASE relearn! Now that the laptop took a shit I think that ship just sailed. . .

[Supercharged111]

Well I'm at a complete and total fuckin loss with this thing. I used the bidirectional controls to play with adding and subtracting fuel and timing at an idle to no avail. It just sits there and lopes and misses at idle with good LTFTs. It never pulled this with the blackbox, I'm completely fed up and out of ideas. None of this makes sense. It has the proper proportion of air, fuel, and spark so how the hell does it idle like it has a donkey dick cam?

[Supercharged111]

And the case relearn won't work. All I get is no reply, try again or an instant OK and no stumble when I rev.

[joecar]

Bidir control might not be working on this PCM.

Is it running from the MAF or from VE...?

[Supercharged111]

Both. Fuel and spark bidirectional is working, but it didn't cure the lope. I bumped base airflow to the point that I believe it now trims air and LTFTs are now all negative. Timing is definitely good enough.

[joecar]

You don't have any air leaks at the intake manifold...?

[Supercharged111]

Not that I'm aware of. Only thing I changed was the PCM. Idled great before and now it sucks bigtime.

[statesman]

It has the proper proportion of air, fuel, and spark so how the hell does it idle like it has a donkey dick cam?

Post a log of your idle and your latest tune file. Include the following in your log...

IAC counts
Spark
MAF
MAP
RPM
TP
Front O2 sensors
Short and long fuel trims

[Supercharged111]

Here's some of that, we'll see how many reboots it takes to capture all of those pids.

21869
21870

After log 10 I bumped VE at 400 and 800 RPMs up to 55 kpa as there was a weird dip there in the stock map. I did that because I saw 3.9% positive LTFTs at idle on occasion. Fuel trims ought to be all negative if I can capture a suitable log.

As far as I know, firing order is the same from the 5.7 to the 7.4 (cylinders are also numbered the same), so I really don't know what the asspain is here. I double checked pin colors and locations, the only CEL I'm getting is for EGR which is turned off anyway. Unless it's stuck open? Drivability is good, just seems to not be responding and giving me the power I was expecting. It's better than stock, but not dramatically so. Off idle stumble sometimes isn't that bad. That feels tunable, but this lope from a steady state idle just feels like something is broken.

[Supercharged111]

Went to Lowe's to get caps to plug the EGR off on this thing and they didn't have any so I came back out and unplugged the thing. Much to my surprise, it fired right up and idled smooth. I was not convinced. Drove it home and sure as shit idles like it did with the black box and restarts without a right foot. Probably need to undo some of those idle airflow and VE bumps now. This is something I can work with. Hard to believe with it all disabled in the tune that it was somehow opening up at an idle. Sorry for the drama, I really didn't have time for something that was threatening to be as in depth as this was. I needed this as a driver to get body work done on another truck and to be able to free myself up to scrap another (among other things). Busy is an understatement!

[joecar]

so EGR was causing an exhaust intake leak...? :)

yeah, I now, stuff just snowballs.

[Supercharged111]

so EGR was causing an exhaust intake leak...? :)

yeah, I now, stuff just snowballs.

That's kinda what led me down that path. When you mentioned intake leak, I thought of the power wire I didn't install to the EGR and began to wonder if it needed that to hold ot closed. That was the only place the intake could have suddenly began leaking from from a PCM swap. That or the charcoal canister but it wasn't that.

[SS2win]

ugh... well, glad you figured it out!

[Supercharged111]

Me too! Now that that mess is behind me I can figure out why my timing is capped at 32.5 degrees? Low load commands more than that but simply doesn't deliver. I added 2 more degrees and the truck really seemed to like that, but low load still capped at 32.5. Truck is finally starting to act like something more than a 350 now.

Second annoyance is how reluctant it is to lock the TCC. I actually bumped the min TCC duty cycle a little higher than my 1500 but it still locks more quickly. The apply rate is the same as the 1500 as well but I'm willing to bump it if that's my next logical step.

Another area I was having trouble getting this thing to react like the 1500 was with overall throttle response and not having it downshift all the damn time. Again I went after throttle kickdown tables more aggressively than I did with the 1500 and then it hit me: this pig has the same size throttle body as my 350. So after reviewing the data I confirmed that I am completely unable to achieve atmospheric before a downshift. I can only hit atmospheric at 100% TP, so bigger throttle body it is. I think this motor makes more sense with a manual, to get the benefit of a manual in an automatic I need it to hit stoich before a downshift like the 1500. Makes towing soooo much more pleasant.

On the plus side, with that EGR nonsense behind me and a little more timing that SOTP confirmed the truck really wanted my dyncylair went from .64 to .72 at peak torque. For reference the 1500 was able to hit .64 before the blower so until tonight I was still pretty discouraged with its performance. That said, exhaust is still stock and I believe on a big block that's a huge restriction. Any ideas on the timing cap and TCC sluggishness? Here's the current tune and a log from it.

21871
21872

[SS2win]

Funny. My timing was capped at 19-20 degrees for a while. After a lot of troubleshooting and, eventually going at it with an oscilloscope, I found the CKP sensor was failing intermittently. I replaced it and it got a lot better but still wasn't right. The Cam Position Retard was showing 85-90* even though the visual alignment was spot on. To add to the confusion, the CPS pulsed properly on the o-scope and seemed to be in proper time with the CKP. The only problem I could find was the top distributor bushing worn out. I guess the extra play must have caused enough timing variation that the PCM went into timing limp mode. I replaced the distributor and the CPR is +/-0-2* like it should be. No codes. No relearn yet either. Timing varies from -5 to 50ish.

[Supercharged111]

A worn distributor gear and timing chain will render you unable to achieve the proper CMPRET. Went through that on the 1500. Mine on the dually was like 11 or 12 last I looked. If I can get a CASE relearn to take I may as well fix cmpret after that.

[SS2win]

I replaced the whole valvetrain 20-30k miles ago. I used a .005 undersized timing chains to get the proper amount of slack so no issues there.

[Supercharged111]

How about the distributor gear? Changing that alone allowed me to swing from about 28 degrees right down to 0 with room to spare. I'm amazed that GM did their advance the way they did on these things, just seems like it'd be one big arced out mess inside there since nothing moves to make ends meet. Oh wait, it is. Every time I pop a cap I end up hitting everything with a Dremel wire brush. I'm going to add timing, attempt a CASE relearn, and set CMPRET properly before beating my head any more. The significance of such a known unknown shouldn't be discounted.

[SS2win]

The gear wasn't worn out. the shaft wore out the distributor housing at the top end and that allowed the rotor to swing wildly. It ran, just not very well with 19-20 max timing.

[Supercharged111]

I was more pointing out the impact the gear has as it can easily exacerbate the problem. I was shocked at the difference it made. This truck has a new cam, gear, and timing chain. I remember feeling the bottom bushing, but not the top. Definitely worth a look. What are you using for a throttle body and intake? This throttle body is very undersized compared to how it acts on the small block. I can see why some people prefer manuals with these engines now.

[SS2win]

stock vortec intake and tb for now. I've not really researched whats available in the aftermarket.

Check out your distributor. The shaft is metal on plastic. No bushing. It's hard to imagine that it's NOT worn out if it has over 150k on it.

IF you need to replace it, check out UNITED MOTOR PRODUCTS 9361 which is a really nice piece at a good price.

[Supercharged111]

No shit? Now I wonder about the 1500 as it has 256,000 on the clock. Dually is sitting at 134,000 so could go either way. I had no idea the top was not bushed.

[SS2win]

256k? yow! better check that! Here's what I found around 220K. I had been through everything including testing via PCM swap trying to fix it.. I couldn't believe the housing is 100% plastic. BTW, the CMP signal looked OK on the scope by itself..

21877

[joecar]

Do you have any oscilloscope graphs/captures of that I can look at...?

[SS2win]

I didn't record as all the work was all done under duress. The 'burb was my only driver at the time so I was chasing the clock to get it done. ugh!

[joecar]

no worries... yeah working on the daily driver is stressful (not to mention it is also the parts getter).

[SS2win]

It was a bad deal... I had five cars in the driveway and all of them needed something or another. I was ready to sell everything, move to London and just ride the tube. lol

[joecar]

lol, London...

I got 5 cars in my driveway at the moment...
- 1 runs ok without needing anything,
- 1 runs with leaks (coolant and ATF),
- 1 has a flat battery,
- 2 don't run (pulled apart for repairs and/or modding).

[Supercharged111]

I have:

Z06 at the body shop, pick up Saturday (woo hoo!), but needs torque tube rebuilt, brakes, tires, and 2nd gear to not crunch.
Z28 is an eyesore, but worse yet has a right hand sweeper only chug.
1500 needs a new roof, luckily the body shop will warranty it. In the mean time it leaks gear oil out of the front diff from the wrong style seal I installed to fix the old leaky seal and leaks PS fluid from the POS reman box I put in it years ago.
3500 needs mods to carry a camper and pull a trailer simultaneously. It's coming along, but a lot of work to cram into a short time.
Wife's Envoy is doing pretty good.
Also have a flipper dually and a wrecked parts dually that I need to make go away.

All this and I may be moving in October, won't know for a few more months.



On a much more on topic note, I just made a discovery by accident tonight. While playing with the TCC lock/unlock tables I was clicking the dots to see which cells were associated with them to make a smoother line and I noticed that, when I clicked the dot, the cell would change value. All this time I had NO idea that you could drag those dots into position to make better linear, exponential, or logarithmic curves! I knew about the blending feature, but this drag feature makes it WAY quicker to ballpark it. I wonder what else everybody but me knows about this software that makes one's life easier?

[joecar]

Are you moving to a house with a larger garage/backyard...?

Yes, the cell/dot drag feature works on any of the graph representations (i.e. the 2D and 3D graphs)... I believe it's mentioned in the tunetool user manual (but who reads the manual...?) :)

[Supercharged111]

Exactly. Might be worth a peek on that note.

If I do move, I don't know where yet. I'm kind of on the fence between wanting to see something new and not going somewhere that I end up hating. Air Force has the final say there. I'm dying for some property, but the uncertainty of my future precludes me from doing anything at the moment. Acreage is near te top of my to do list, not being able to park everything at home makes it very difficult to maintain/modify things like the camper and car hauler.

SS2Win how much timing did that 454 take? I'm dumping 30 at .72 and .68 and it seems to like it. That's more than I thought it'd want. I feel like it'd be 26 at sea level. I am running 91 octane.

[SS2win]

I don't know on the timing yet. I'm prepared to do the whole thing with the roadrunner just don't know when I'll find time.

[SS2win]

I just want to throw it out here, I had some performance and drivability issues that were cured by unplugging and tuning out the EGR... not sure if it went bad or the PCM doesn't really support it well. It's still on the engine, just disconnected. The difference? wish I'd done it sooner!

[Supercharged111]

Yeah, caused me some serious issues initially as well. I was getting actual KR with a good deal less timing than the motor has now. Engine doesn't lope at an idle now or smell like farts or require throttle to start. Except for hot restarts, but that's because of junk injectors. I have some 42# injectors getting cleaned and flow tested at the moment, then I'll drop them in with the ASA injector data and should have 1 more annoyance crossed off my list.

[malibu795]

Following letters

[Supercharged111]

Haven't horsed with the tune in a while. Really needs some idle airflow work. Been using it all summer to haul my camper and trailer to the track. Laptop stopped working for a while and I was about to get a new one. Turned out that the RAM wasn't seated properly which was causing all the problems I'd been having for a while.

[Supercharged111]

I do have 1 concern. My OS is 12208322, not the 12212156 that most use with these old ass Vortecs. Having said that, this OS is listed on page 6 of the COS tutorial.

http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/Custom%20OS%20Upgrade%20Tutorial.pdf

Is there any reason I should want to change over to 12212156 before the COS 5 upgrade because I'm not seeing one.

[SS2win]

just to be on the same os as the rest of us? :D

[Supercharged111]

My 1500 started life as 12212156. I'm just wondering if this is a quirky OS.

[SS2win]

Could be but mine's doing ok (except for shifts in 4LO). I've never tried 12208322 to know any difference.

[Supercharged111]

Oh yeah, dammit. That must have been the reason. This thing hauls a lot so 4LO may be of use off road with the monster camper.

[SS2win]

I'm going to play with some segment swaps options and see if I can get it to work. just looking for a free Saturday morning..

[Supercharged111]

I'm going to play with some segment swaps options and see if I can get it to work. just looking for a free Saturday morning..

I have a full tune laying around somewhere, just do a full flash after the COS is working and that should be it I do believe. Of course copy/paste your stuff into it. I think it's on the HDD that took a dump but still has recoverable data but my toaster looking thing you stick HDDs into quit working.

[SS2win]

I finally got some time to play with it and got 4LO working. I wish I had taken better notes but in the end the difference is in BOTH the System Segment AND the Calibration. I found the system segment 9373409 enabled 4Lo shifting with the right calibration.... what the final combo is I don't know except that it works now with the 12212156 OS. My guess is there is a 4LO shift table that is not populated in some calibrations.

Next problem to tackle is converter lockup. It used to work but hasn't in some time and I don't know what I changed to break it!

[Supercharged111]

Hmm, I much like the idea of a system segment swap only on my 1500, that would allow me to keep everything else working. Can you jam that directly into COS5 or do you first need to un-COS, add the segment, and re-COS?

[SS2win]

I'm not using a custom os so no experience there. I'd guess that you can segment swap as normal. From what I found, you have to have the proper system segment AND a calibration that is ready with the 4LO shift table populated, or it won't work. I'm making a grand assumption that there are calibrations without the 4LO table data, and that, in combination with the wrong system segment, is breaking 4LO shifting. Somehow I hit on the right combination. I can flash an older tune on to the OS I'm using and break 4LO shifts.,,,

[Supercharged111]

Weird. I remember the combo being sort of magical. I believe the S10 was a part of the secret sauce. So a cal only flash will break 4LO? That's crazy.

[SS2win]

Yep! I also found that I can flash a 6.0L 4l80E tune in, set the platform to GM610 and set the low res crank option and that's all you need for a vortec. In other words you don't need to start with a Express van tune if you know what to set in system. I never questioned that before but in my attempts to get 4LO working I flashed a 2002 6.0L OS and then flashed my "vortec" tune over that. Fired right up. Somehow along the way of mixing and matching tunes and segment swaps I got the (invisible) 4LO shift table copied in there which enabled shifting. works perfect now.

[Supercharged111]

Sweet! What table is the low/hi res crank option?

[SS2win]

It's under "System|Vehicle Platform". After I flashed the system segment, getting the vortec to run was as easy as making the options match the vortec low res tune.

[Supercharged111]

It's under "System|Vehicle Platform". After I flashed the system segment, getting the vortec to run was as easy as making the options match the vortec low res tune.

What software version do you have? All I see is theft, low coolant, AC, fans, tach.

[SS2win]

I run the latest

[Supercharged111]

What all is in it? I have theft, low coolant, AC, fans, tach. For some reason fuel system, system, and speedometer won't open on COS5 for my 1500. I have a newer .calz file for COS5 than I do the dually's OS which got me the transient fueling tables I'd been missing out on.

[SS2win]

You're missing quite a bit. Maybe they won't open because cos5 borrows from those areas of the bin to provide expanded features? If I get some lazy time I'll try upgrading to see if anything changes or if I continue to have the same options.

[Supercharged111]

Something's weird for sure because I've been in there before to tweak stuff like the speedo for gears and tires. This was with the V2 plugged into the laptop but not the vehicle.

[SS2win]

Why are you running COS?

[Supercharged111]

To read boost, but here in CO I barely crack 100kpa with the puny 1.6L Whipple on the 1500. I have a 2.3 getting rebuilt for the dually, so same need for COS there.

[SS2win]

Oh yeah I guess I could have figured that out from your Sig. It might be a good time to start over and upgrade the OS see if things work for you.

[SS2win]

Well thanks to Hurricane Michael, I found the free time to try COS3 and COS5 on my L29/454 Vortec 0411 swap... While I haven't done extensive testing I can say that both seem to work well and 4LO shifts fine.

[SS2win]

Here's the Vehicle Platform Options page under COS5 ...


22457

[Supercharged111]

Very cool. That looks familiar, I think I've seen that on some GenIV tunes before. Possibly on the desktop with the newer calz files. Now that I think about it someone on another forum was talking about being able to change tach pulse output to correct a factory tach. Having said that, the 1 tune I have the newer calz file for on the laptop is the COS5 and that's the one that's not giving me anything for the system segment which I have been able to modify in the past.

[SS2win]

You can adjust the tach pulse but I don't think you can ever get it right on the dash. Mine seems to run 2-300 RPM's higher than reported on the scanner

[Supercharged111]

There's a guy with a truck I tuned on a little whose tach pegs out while the motor us under 5000 RPM. Cluster, motor, harness, and PCM all from the same donor (LQ9 swapped).

[Supercharged111]

I stole the calz files from a newer V7.5 and now can view platform options and all that good stuff. All the system stuff is finally showing for the 1500 as well. My only questions are these: is it as simple as changing my declared platform from GMT610 (van) to GMT800 (in hopes of t case working right), selecting my applicable options (really just low res crank as the 97 didn't have the alternator terminals like my 98 and BTM can suck it), and doing a cal only flash? Or are there some unknown unknowns I may be overlooking?

[Supercharged111]

Another fun fact I learned today: bump the max allowed timing 10 degrees. Could be the cause of my 32.5* limitation. We shall see. Another tuner observed a 10 degree offset in the max timing.

[joecar]

I take it you're running an older build of V7.5.

Intetesting about max timing.

[Supercharged111]

Yeah, it seems 7.5 doesn't want to play with Windows 10 on my desktop so laptop only for the time being. Can't really get to the dually to try this out as it's out at the hangar with the camper still in the back. Joe do you know if those platform changes in the system segment will require a full flash or cal only flash?

[joecar]

Platform changes require only cal flash.

[Supercharged111]

As observed in my 1500, the dually is next whenever I can excavate it from my camper. Thanks!

[Supercharged111]

I'll keep going with this thread. I recently installed 42# injectors and a 2 bar MAP on this truck. When I went to a custom operating system, I saw this one only goes up to COS3. I decided to give it a try so I didn't have to copy/paste the rest of my cal over. I'm kicking that can a little farther down the road, but I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet here at some point. There are some quirks that this PCM has that the 12212156 based one does not. Over the weekend, I got my rebuilt Whipple back on the dually and driveability right off the bat is pretty good. I need to log for knock, I'm getting some locked in OD right before PE mode hits. Just need to decide if I should pull more based on IAT or pull it from the timing map itself? I need to unload a washer and dryer before I can log or they'll end up in the middle of the road. I also appear to be running out of fuel pump, so I overnighted an AEM 340. Overkill for sure but it's a known universal fit, my truck doesn't have the bucket setup in the tank. I missed that by a year. I had to command 9.5:1 to get enough fuel under boost and duty cycles are in the low 70s. Fuel pressure is dropping from 50 to 40 psi when it should be 60+ under boost. Since the plan is to hook up a trailer and drive 1300 miles on Saturday, time is running out. I think once I sort the fuel volume and the knock, I can re-engage my tuning efforts back in MI at a much lower altitude and know for certain where I stand on injector headroom. I have a smaller pulley to put on the blower but am holding off at the moment for obvious reasons.

[statesman]

I need to log for knock, I'm getting some locked in OD right before PE mode hits. Just need to decide if I should pull more based on IAT or pull it from the timing map itself?

Cylinder charge in that situation is very large. As it only happens just before entering PE, pulling timing should be last resort. First look at bringing in PE earlier and also look at if you really should be locked in OD for the given road speed.

[Supercharged111]

Definitely considered bringing in PE mode sooner, also thinking semi open loop in COS5 may be the answer here as well to give me something between closed loop and PE mode as those IATs start to build. My 1500 doesn't exhibit this and that's how it's controlled. I won't downshift any sooner though, I want all I can get out of OD before leaving it as it screams less when loaded this way and is still pulling hard, not quite to the point of no returns. I have deleted the PE timing adder and put it all in the high octane table, instances like these make me question that logic as well.

[Supercharged111]

Popped an Aeromotive 340 in, massive overkill I know, but the truck instantly ran too rich for the wideband to read at WOT so I can pare back PE fueling to something more realstic, pulley down, and get some data. :rockon:

[joecar]

Sounds like you were having fuel starvation.

[Supercharged111]

Yeah it was real bad. Another guy said he ran this setup on a stock pump and maybe he did. Turns out my pump was a Napa replacement, so not apples to apples like I thought. Now I have fuel for days and this truck responded way better than my 1500 to the blower in terms of throttle response, so looking like a quick calc.vet, some idle tuning, a trip to the dyno to verify its wants, and I'm set.