lc1 BEN factor for auto ve leaning out afr

[98camaro408]

Hi, I have a 408 running an ls1a pcm and i'm trying to run the auto ve tutorial. I followed it step by step and when I copied and pasted the BEN chart into my backup VE table it was a .8 multiplier across the board and it leaned the motor out even more then it already was. I attempted a second log of data to get even closer but was so lean the car just fell on its face after leaving the driveway I had to load an older tune back in. I was expecting to have some 1.x numbers on the chart since at certain rpms I was running a little lean. I'm still a beginner at tuning but I have done a lot of searching and can't find an answer. Something that seems funny is the tutorial wants the commanded AFR logged and it shows 8.62, I'm running e85 so I have my stoich input set to 9.7 i believe but I don't know why it wants such a rich commanded AFR.

I attempted to attach my auto ve log, hopefully it shows my BEN factor and anything else you may need.

thanks for any help/suggestions

[joecar]

Set Stoich back to stock (14.63 for F-car or 14.68 for Y-car) in the tune, and redo AutoVE


( the LC-1 reports AFR based on stoich 14.7, so the PCM's commanded AFR must be based on the same Stoich (14.63 and 14.68 are suffciently close).

[joecar]

It also looks like your widebands are not working.

[joecar]

Set B3601 Stoich AFR to 9.7 in your tune...

and then do either one of these:
a. create calc pids for LC-1 AFR based on stoich 9.7 and BEN based on this AFR (e.g. BEN is {CALC.AFR_LC11}/14.7 * 9.7/{GM.AFR}).
b. create calc pids for LC-1 lambda and BEN based on this (e.g. BEN is {CALC.AFR_LC11}/14.7 * {GM.EQIVRATIO})


I prefer b.


( of course you combine the math 9.7/14.7 = 0.65986 )

[joecar]

If you use Lambda and/or EQR instead of AFR, there will be less confusion

( and NA PE should be set to about 0.85-0.86 regardless of stoich AFR )

[98camaro408]

okay so I had my 3601 table set to 9.71 while i was attempting to run the auto ve, if I switch it over to 14.7 while running e85 won't the computer lean the motor way out? I typically log everything in lambda and cross reference it to an e85 chart to keep things more simple. why do you think my wideband isn't working? right now i'm running with no 02 sensors just an open loop tune with MAF support. I'm trying to dial in my VE table so I can run with no MAF and have more control over fueling. The way its setup now when I make a change to the VE table the AFR never changes, the MAF must be doing all the talking.

[98camaro408]

so I just looked on the efilive help tutorial on how to create calcpids and I don't fully understand how to do it. I think I will try setting my 3601 back to 14.7 and see what happens, I have my lc1 display set to show afr based on e85 stoich so if it gets crazy I'll just shut it down, plus I log in lambda anyways so I should see it on there as well.

[joecar]

okay so I had my 3601 table set to 9.71 while i was attempting to run the auto ve, if I switch it over to 14.7 while running e85 won't the computer lean the motor way out?
Yes, that's what will happen... I was trying to point out that working with AFR make it harder and confusing... so I then wrote the next post about calc pids.


I typically log everything in lambda and cross reference it to an e85 chart to keep things more simple. why do you think my wideband isn't working?
Its reading mostly 7.8...


right now i'm running with no 02 sensors just an open loop tune with MAF support. I'm trying to dial in my VE table so I can run with no MAF and have more control over fueling. The way its setup now when I make a change to the VE table the AFR never changes, the MAF must be doing all the talking.Are you seeing a MAF DTC...?

If you don't see a MAF DTC:
the PCM will continue using the MAF, and if the MAF is not physically present, the PCM calculates what it should/might have read.

[joecar]

so I just looked on the efilive help tutorial on how to create calcpids and I don't fully understand how to do it. I think I will try setting my 3601 back to 14.7 and see what happens, I have my lc1 display set to show afr based on e85 stoich so if it gets crazy I'll just shut it down, plus I log in lambda anyways so I should see it on there as well.

Do this: set B3601 to 9.7 ( there are kits to measure alcohol % content in gasoline, then you can cross-reference it to the stoich AFR to use).

Then let's take a look at your calc_pids.txt file, post it here, it's located under c:\user\<you>\Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration.

[98camaro408]

that is a correct reading, my lambda showing 7.8 is my actual afr when I have the MAF fail set to 1, my VE table is set to run pretty rich as I believe it suppose to during the first run with the auto ve tutorial (it says to add 15% to the entire table I think). my wideband calibrated to e85 shows around 12.6. when i run with my MAF tune I idle around 16 afr and cruise around 12.5 afr at 2k rpm.

right now i bounce between 2 tunes, one runs pretty good with the MAF activated, the other is setup with the higher fuel added to the VE table and the MAF set to fail. I run the second tune trying to dial in my VE table but so far no luck, I played with it last night but had some technical difficulties last night with my laptop battery and didn't want to lock my pcm.

[98camaro408]

# ================================================== ============================
# File details
# ------------
#
# This section defines various details about the file format.

*FILE

#Parameter Value Description
#---------- ---------------- ---------------------------------------------------
VERSION 7.1.1 File version
DECSEP . Decimal separator used in this file


# ================================================== ============================
# Units
# -------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on the *UNITS section

*UNITS

#Code System Abbr Description
#-------- ---------- -------- -------------------------------------------------------------
None None "" "No units"
K Metric "K" "Degrees Kelvin"
R Imperial "R" "Degrees Rankine"


# ================================================== ============================
# Add slot definitions here
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on "SLOT" formats
#
#Units Low High Fmt Expression
#------------ ------------- ------------- ---- --------------------------------------------------------------

*CLC-00-032
factor 0 4 .0 "{GM.EQIVRATIO}=1"

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1}"

*CLC-00-120
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "({SAE.LONGFT1}+{SAE.LONGFT2})/200+1"

*CLC-00-220
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "iff({CALC.CL}, {CALC.LTFTBEN}, {CALC.WO2BEN})"

*CLC-00-273
C 0.0 100.0 .1 "{GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}"
F 40.0 220.0 .1 "{GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.F}"
K 280.0 380.0 .1 "{GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15"
R 500.0 680.0 .1 "{GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.F}+459.67"

*CLC-00-300
% 0.0 100.0 .2 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*{CALC.DAT.K}/{SAE.MAP.kPa}/{SAE.RPM}*3445.2/displacement()"
VE 0.0 2.468 .4 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*{CALC.DAT.K}/{SAE.MAP.kPa}/{SAE.RPM}*15"

*CLC-00-305
% 0.0 100.0 .2 "{CALC.SELBEN}*{CALC.VEN.%}"
VE 0.0 2.468 .4 "{CALC.SELBEN}*{CALC.VEN.VE}"

*CLC-00-310
gps 0.0 400.0 .1 "{GM.VETABLE_DMA.VE}/{CALC.DAT.K}*{SAE.MAP.kPa}*{SAE.RPM}/15"

*CLC-00-315
gps 0.0 400.0 .1 "{CALC.SELBEN}*{CALC.MAFN.gps}"

*CLC-00-430
VE 0.0 4.0 .4 "{GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA}*{CALC.DAT.K}/{SAE.MAP.kPa}"

*CLC-00-435
gcyl 0.0 1.0 .4 "{GM.VETABLE_DMA.VE}/{CALC.DAT.K}*{SAE.MAP.kPa}"


# ================================================== ============================
*PRN - Parameter Reference Numbers
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on the *PRN section
#
#Code PRN SLOT Units System Description
#------------------------- ---- ------------ ---------------- ---------------- ------------------------------------------

CALC.CL F032 CLC-00-032 factor Tuning "Closed Loop (based on EQIVRATIO)"

CALC.WO2BEN F110 CLC-00-110 factor Tuning "BEN from WB"
CALC.LTFTBEN F120 CLC-00-120 factor Tuning "BEN from LTFT"
CALC.SELBEN F220 CLC-00-220 factor Tuning "BEN selected from LTFT or WB"

CALC.DAT F273 CLC-00-273 "C,F,K,R" Tuning "Dynamic Air Temperature"

CALC.VEN F300 CLC-00-300 "%,VE" Tuning "Calculated VE, not corrected"
CALC.VET F305 CLC-00-305 "%,VE" Tuning "Calculated VE, BEN corrected"

CALC.MAFN F310 CLC-00-310 gps Tuning "Calculated MAF, not corrected"
CALC.MAFT F315 CLC-00-315 gps Tuning "Calculated MAF, BEN corrected"

CALC.VEDCA F430 CLC-00-430 VE Tuning "Calculated VE (from DCA)"
CALC.DCAVE F435 CLC-00-435 gcyl Tuning "Calculated DCA (from VE)"

[98camaro408]

thanks for the help by the way!! I really appreciate it

[joecar]

I typically log everything in lambda and cross reference it to an e85 chart to keep things more simple. why do you think my wideband isn't working?


Its reading mostly 7.8...


I meant AFR 7.38 for LC12 and AFR 7.45 for LC12...


you logs show that both wideband flatline at AFR 7.38...

this means that your LC-1's are putting out zero volts... they're not working or not connected properly... ( do you have wideband ground connected to FS...?)

[joecar]

that is a correct reading, my lambda showing 7.8 is my actual afr

in your log I see the LC-1's are pegging at AFR 7.38 (LC12) and AFR 7.45 (LC11) which corresponds to zero volts (0.01V-0.03V... i.e. zero);

since the pids AFR_LC11 and AFR_LC12 are based on stoich AFR 14.7, the 7.8 (7.38, 7.45) you see cannot be actual AFR... even if you are running E85 (stoich 9.7) your LC-1's should still report AFR 14.7 at stoich.


when I have the MAF fail set to 1,
do you see a MAF DTC show up (either of P0101, P0102, P0103)...? This is important. Edit: I see P0103 in your log, this is good.


my VE table is set to run pretty rich as I believe it suppose to during the first run with the auto ve tutorial (it says to add 15% to the entire table I think). my wideband calibrated to e85 shows around 12.6. when i run with my MAF tune I idle around 16 afr and cruise around 12.5 afr at 2k rpm.I don't see that in your log... do you have any more current logs to post...
How did you calibratate your wideband(s) to E85, your log shows you're using the standard LC-1 pids which are calibrated for E00.


right now i bounce between 2 tunes, one runs pretty good with the MAF activated, the other is setup with the higher fuel added to the VE table and the MAF set to fail. I run the second tune trying to dial in my VE table but so far no luck, I played with it last night but had some technical difficulties last night with my laptop battery and didn't want to lock my pcm.Yes, make sure laptop battery and vehicle battery are both fully charged.

[98camaro408]

21553

here is a short log I took when I was running in my MAF tune. It shows my lambda running closer to 1.

I have the logworks program on my computer that logs and programs the lc1, I have it set to display on the gauge what afr would be running e85. I can also set it to display lambda or E00.

[98camaro408]

would posting my tune help at all? maybe then you can see how I have my VE table set up and if it looks correct for what I am trying to do.

[joecar]

would posting my tune help at all? maybe then you can see how I have my VE table set up and if it looks correct for what I am trying to do.Yes, I'll take a look.

[98camaro408]

here is the tune where I changed my afr to 14.7 but never got to run it due to technical difficulties. I should have made every change according to the auto ve tutorial. I think when I ran this tune with my 9.765 stoich it ran decent. according to the tutorial I had to add 15% fuel to the table but the car wouldn't even start it was so rich, I ended up backing off the fueling around 30% ( on the backup ve) to get my idle afr okay and went from there. I'm not sure if i mentioned this but this is for a 98 camaro so I have to tune everything with the backup table and I copied my high octane table and pasted it into my low octane table.

[joecar]

...
according to the tutorial I had to add 15% fuel to the table but the car wouldn't even start it was so rich, I ended up backing off the fueling around 30% ( on the backup ve) to get my idle afr okay and went from there.
What engine mods do you have over stock...?
The AutoVE tutorial says 15% in that it assumes you have larger displacement, huge flowing heads, and huge cam... and 15% is too high even at that.



I'm not sure if i mentioned this but this is for a 98 camaro so I have to tune everything with the backup table and I copied my high octane table and pasted it into my low octane table.
Yes, with MAF failed, PCM runs from the Backup VE table and LO Spark table.

[98camaro408]

it is a fully forged 408, prc 247cc heads, fast 92mm intake/throttle body, 12:1 CR, custom grind cam 243/255 .629/.629 113+4, e85 with siemens 80lb injectors and 450lph pump.

[statesman]

Your power enrichment is effectively disabled... you've got {B3618} set to 1.0 lambda across the board. This is not good.

[joecar]

Also, B3605 peaks at EQR 1.129 which is barely rich enough for WOT if VE and MAF are already corrected and there is no knock.

[statesman]

Also, B3605 peaks at EQR 1.129 which is barely rich enough for WOT if VE and MAF are already corrected and there is no knock.

I didn't even look at that table. At least there's some enrichment there, but it's an ugly way of doing PE... and he'll find out just how ugly it is if he ever switches to closed loop.

[joecar]

Yeah, that's not good.

Also, there's confusion caused by the various stoich AFR's.

And his LC-1 is pegged at AFR 7.38 i.e. zero volts.

[98camaro408]

so should I be starting somewhere else rather then setting up the VE table? I don't plan on switching back to closed loop anytime soon. what should my next steps be? I know my wideband is working, it was reading so rich because the added fuel from the tutorial, I let it ride like that just thinking that after I plugged in the numbers from the B chart it would lean it out enough to run it again. When I'm running with my MAF active my afr reads more normal between .920 and 1.150 depending on what I'm doing.
Do you see any reason why when I run the tutorial it's multiplying most all the activated cells by .8? and why they would all be the same multiplier?

thanks again!

[statesman]

I agree with joecar that there's an issue with your widebands... they're reading zero volts. Can you switch over to MAF only mode and run a log for us so we can see what the widebands look like when they're reading close to stoich.

[joecar]

+1 run MAF-only and let's see wb's.


Also, were you expecting to run MAF/VE or VE-only after the AUtoVE was complete...?

[98camaro408]

here is another log I took when I was running with the MAF active, I'm assuming this is what you are referring to as MAF only? It shows lambda running around .97 lambda.

what screen do you look at on the logs? I typically look at the charting on the dashboard, are you guys looking at the data tab? I don't see where you are seeing zero volts. Unless you can somehow change the pids maybe? Or are you looking at the narrowband voltage hanging at .451mv. I only run one wideband on one bank and my narrowbands are both disconnected. I only log the second wideband because at first I wasn't sure which pid it would display under so I selected them both.

I'll be able to take another log tomorrow afternoon if there is something else you would like to see, I'll probably remove the misfire data from the pids to clean that up a little bit.

sorry for not understanding.. still trying tackle the steep learning curve.

[98camaro408]

I was planning on running both MAF and VE but the VE table is the first one I'm trying to get sorted out.

[statesman]

That log doesn't show the wideband voltage. Do a fresh log in MAF mode and log the same parameters you logged in your last VE log.

[98camaro408]

okay well that makes sense as to why i couldn't see it either then. after work today I'll go out and make a new log to post up. just curios why the voltage could be at zero for one log but show a good lambda reading on another log? intermittent failure?

[statesman]

That's what we're trying to figure out. The log in MAF mode will help us see what's happening. Just make sure you're logging EXT.AD1 and EXT.W02LAM1... also log MAF Frequency and MAF airflow.

[joecar]

Do you have 1 or 2 widebands...?

[98camaro408]

I am currently running 1 wideband. what is EXT.AD1? my tuning computer is at home and that pid doesn't sound familiar.

[98camaro408]

okay I did some research and it looks like I need to have wires from my lc1 connected to the top of my v2 to get the external voltage to read anything. I never hooked them up because I run a serial cable into the v2 coming from my wideband. is this not correct? do I need to have the narrowband voltage wired into the v2?

[joecar]

okay I did some research and it looks like I need to have wires from my lc1 connected to the top of my v2 to get the external voltage to read anything. I never hooked them up because I run a serial cable into the v2 coming from my wideband. is this not correct?
Yes, not correct... 0-5V analog wideband needs its signal/ground wires connected to FSV2's AD1+/- inputs (respectively).

The analog pids are EXT.AD1; and the calc pids are CALC.AFR_LC11 and CALC.BEN_LC11.

( serial wideband uses a different set of pids, namely EXT.WO2xxx1 )


do I need to have the narrowband voltage wired into the v2?
No, narrowband signal/ground goes to PCM, not to FSV2; you can log this from the PCM as GM.HO2S11 and GM.HO2S21.

[98camaro408]

okay, I got it rigged up enough to get a test out of it. I think I need new information plugged into the wideband so that it logs correctly on the scanner. right now it is just set up as whatever it comes from factory as which if I remember it was like .1v to 1.1v. but it is working.

[98camaro408]

21573

[joecar]

The LC-1 has two analog outputs:
- channel 1 (yellow wire) is 0-1.1V narrowband signal,
- channel 2 (brown wire) is 0-5V wideband signal,
both are wrt ground (green or white wires, and not the black wire).

So you want channel 2 to go to FSV2.

[joecar]

Also, from your new log file analog v1 test.efi (https://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21572&d=1507240199) you really do need to download V7 and V8 software and install both...

see here: Sep-2017-Release-Candidate-3 (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?27992-Sep-2017-Release-Candidate-3)

and then with FSV2 connected to your PC, run V8 Scan & Tune, click Check Firmware, and follow the prompts to update your FSV2's firmware.



More info: Setting-up-a-FSV2-from-scratch (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?20699-Setting-up-a-FSV2-from-scratch)

[98camaro408]

i have 5 wires coming out of my lc1, none of them are green or brown..

[98camaro408]

okay I'm an idiot.. I do have a brown wire but it looks like it is going up to my wideband display gauge, can i just tee into it? still unsure about what ground I should be using, the one I am using seems to be doing something at least. on a side note I bought the car with this wideband setup so I'm unsure of how it is wired in.

[joecar]

No, do not tee into the brown wire.


You can instead re-program the other channel (yellow wire) to be 0-5V WB.


The ground wires are either green or white.

The black wire is not a ground, it is for initiating sensor recalibration, and for driving the LED.

[98camaro408]

what do I want to set my 0v and 5v at for the lambda or afr and which should I use?

[joecar]

For AFR: set 0.0V to AFR 7.35, set 5.0V to AFR 22.35...

and then we will need a new calc pid CALC.WB.LAMBDA that calculates {CALC.AFR_LC11}/14.7 to get lambda...

and then if you log GM.EQIVRATIO (instead of GM.AFR) the correction BEN is {GM.EQIVRATIO} * {CALC.WB.LAMBDA}

I can add it to your calc pids file above (later tonite).


So then, we're moving away from AFR (the only place where you need to set it is in B3601 in the tune), we going to log in Lambda...

you will see that PE is around 0.85 Lambda (or so) regardless of the fuel you use

( this will avoid a lot of confusion between B3601, wideband, and the actual fuel )

[joecar]

See attached calc_pids.txt... use the pid CALC.WO2BEN, remember to select all of its dependent pids.

[98camaro408]

dumb question, I just copy and paste that into "calc_pids.txt file, post it here, it's located under c:\user\<you>\Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration" correct? do I set it as a new document or overwrite my current one?

[joecar]

Yes, download and copy/paste the calc_pids.txt file, overwrite the current one;

then open it using Notepad or Notepad++ and look at it, if you see the units LAM and EQR defined near the top, then you have the correct file.

[98camaro408]

okay so i have everything hooked up and all the correct pids selected, is this the tune I want to run to do the auto ve now? it has my afr set at 14.7.

I also attached a log of testing everything hooked up and trying to get some cells on the map above a 50 count under the MAF tune. I'm not sure if the data looks correct, what do you think?

[98camaro408]

okay so I ran the tune from the last post and did a few sets of the auto ve around idle and its commanding more and more fuel each time. I don't see where the auto ve is trying to command a certain afr or lambda. you can see in the log that the lambda is showing lean (over 1.0) but the afr is showing rich which my eyeballs can tell is true lol.

sorry if this is basic stuff, I will tell you this though, I have learned a crap ton from you and doing all this the last few days. I really appreciate it and hope to help others some day.

[joecar]

What fuel are you running...?

[98camaro408]

I feel like I need to change the map from (base efficiency numerator 1-lc1 ls1 style factor) to (ben from wb factor). does that sound right?

[98camaro408]

e85 always

[joecar]

If you run E85, set B3601 to 9.7.

Also do this:
- set B3605 col 100 kPa to EQR 1.170, and ramp up to there from the 70 kPa col (use the left-right linear button).
- set B3618 to EQR 1.17.

[joecar]

What cam do you have (int/exh dur +adv)...?

[98camaro408]

243/255 .629/.629 113+4

My 3605 is in lambda and it doesn't look like I can change it through the configure display units. same with my 3618, it's in lambda as well.

[98camaro408]

nevermind, I had to restart the tune program

[joecar]

Here's some files for the scantool, unzip them to their correct folders under c:\user\<you>\Documents\EFILive\V7.5.

Then in the scantool, open up VDash chart LS1B-0001-m, and open up map B0101-CALC-WO2BEN.

[joecar]

I have to drive home from work now, so I'll continue when I get there (about 1 hour).

[98camaro408]

did you forget to add the files? I see the chart name is LS1Bxxxxx being a 98 I run the LS1A does that make any difference?

also did you see post #52, did that make any sense?

[joecar]

rats, I did forget... :nixweiss: ...sorry.

[joecar]

rats, I did forget... :nixweiss: ...sorry.

rats again, the zip file is on the laptop I left at work... :wallbash:

[98camaro408]

any luck finding those files? I switched the data on my map and seemed to get better data. I think the temperature changes I am going through right now with the seasons changing aren't really helping any. I had a question on what to do with my new data after I'm done, I've been changing the backup ve table due to my 98 pcm, but when I set my MAF back to active it won't be looking at the backup table anymore correct? do I need to copy the backup table into the main table and just blend the high res cells with the other ones?

[joecar]

Thanks for reminding me... hold on a sec...

[joecar]

See attached .zip file... if you look in it you will see where all the parts go...

it includes these files:
- .pid file to selects the pids of interest
- .map for VE table using WO2BEN
- .vdb virtual dash (see dash B charts)
- calc_pids.txt from above.



Here's some files for the scantool, unzip them to their correct folders under c:\user\<you>\Documents\EFILive\V7.5.

Then in the scantool, open up VDash chart LS1B-0001-m, and open up map B0101-CALC-WO2BEN.

[98camaro408]

awesome, I'll download and install them when I get home after work today. what should I do about my Backup ve table and getting the computer to use it?

[joecar]

When you re-enable the MAF, the PCM will use MAF and VE as follows:
- when RPM is above B0120, PCM uses MAF-only.
- when RPM is below B0120, PCM uses MAF for steady state airmass, and uses VE for transient airmass.

B0120 is set to 4000 RPM from the factory.

This means, after you get your Backup VE corrected, you have to populate the Main VE from this... and then you have to correct the MAF is the same manner (disable VE by setting B0120 to 400 or less)(and disable CL/LTFT/STFT).

[Aint Skeered]

Do this: set B3601 to 9.7 ( there are kits to measure alcohol % content in gasoline, then you can cross-reference it to the stoich AFR to use).

Then let's take a look at your calc_pids.txt file, post it here, it's located under c:\user\<you>\Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration.

im interested in changing mine to 10.7 for 70% ethanol we get consistently in south Louisiana. my Ben factor is way off so I only use Lambda but have to manually change each cell.
im ignorant when it comes to the programming side of efi live.

[joecar]

im interested in changing mine to 10.7 for 70% ethanol we get consistently in south Louisiana. my Ben factor is way off so I only use Lambda but have to manually change each cell.
im ignorant when it comes to the programming side of efi live.
Post some screenshots of BEN map.
Are you editing VE table or MAF table (and are you disabling the other table)...?
Are you disabling trims (LT, ST, and OL)...?

[Aint Skeered]

Ve table.


Im open loop speed density

[Aint Skeered]

here is my log if it helps any.