How's it coming guys?

[Drake]

Any progress? Any problems? Keep us updated...

[GMPX]

Any progress? Any problems? Keep us updated...

Hi Drake,

Thanks for checking back to see how things are progressing, speaking as the hardware guy, that has been delayed slightly, but it's for the better.

The prototype/development adaptor that was posted on the web site has been upgraded, we decided to ditch RS232 totally, so the new adaptor which is being manufactured as we speak (just prototyping, not production runs) will be USB2.0 and will have an another A/D input, so that now gives you 2 x A/D inputs to log addtional data with along with the normal EFILive data.
This will be really handy for those with a WBO2 and say a boost sensor, you will be able to log both at once.

So as far as the hardware goes, we are kinda at the mercy of the suppliers etc at this stage as to when the new USB version will be ready for testing, but it's all looking good.....
Trust me, we are not sitting around twiddling our thumbs.

Remember, suggestions of what you would like to see included are always welcome.

As for the software, Paul 'might' respond to that.......

[Steve Bryant]

I am an avionics (aircraft electronics) engineer and a former diesel truck mechanic who loves automotive technology. I currently use EFILive Pro with Bi-directional controls, V 6.3 Beta.

I am extremely glad that you folks are working on FlashScan. USB 2.0 is really the way to go at this point in time. RS 232 ports aren't even included on many new lap tops. Also the through-put of USB 2.0 rivals fire wire although it is much more versatile and is backward compatible.

Now to my question. How do you plan to interface with the analogue devices?
I know that the prototype shows terminal blocks with screws, but I doubt that that will be your approach. You need some type of robust plug and receptacle system where the user can buy an additional plug if needed anywhere in the world. The contacts need to be low resistance, self-cleaning and capable of at least 1,000 disconnect/reconnect cycles without deterioration. Banana jacks might be a solution. A sub D series connector like the Serial Port/RS 232 connector would also probably work, but I don't know how comfortable the average hobbyist (or pro) tuner would be about working with these. Both are used world-wide as are DIN series connectors, but these fail the robustness criterion.

[GMPX]

USB 2.0 is really the way to go at this point in time. RS 232 ports aren't even included on many new lap tops. Also the through-put of USB 2.0 rivals fire wire although it is much more versatile and is backward compatible.

Well, RS232 is still way faster than what the PCM will pump data out at, the PCM only sets aside a certain amount of time to perform communications routines, but as you say, very few Laptops have serial ports these days so it seemed like the logical choice.
My laptop (an NEC 2.4G P4) still has a real serial port which is great for some old DOS based automotive comms programs I have.



Now to my question. How do you plan to interface with the analogue devices?
I know that the prototype shows terminal blocks with screws, but I doubt that that will be your approach. You need some type of robust plug and receptacle system where the user can buy an additional plug if needed anywhere in the world. The contacts need to be low resistance, self-cleaning and capable of at least 1,000 disconnect/reconnect cycles without deterioration. Banana jacks might be a solution. A sub D series connector like the Serial Port/RS 232 connector would also probably work, but I don't know how comfortable the average hobbyist (or pro) tuner would be about working with these. Both are used world-wide as are DIN series connectors, but these fail the robustness criterion.

Steve, this has been a problem on connector choice , personally I'd like a connector like a Lemo or Fischer etc, yeah, who's going to shell out $40 per connector and get the end user to assemble those!!, besides they probably wouldn't fit.
Anyway, we have stuck with a terminal type connector, though on the new USB adaptor, the plugs are accessed from the side so you don't see them looking down anymore.
One of the big problems is basically space, choosing a through hole connector to fit the height requirements is tricky. SMD connectors in my opinion are to susceptible to upwards force breakage or pad destruction.
The terminals we chose (Weidmuller) can be purchased through someone like Rexel for example, they are an 'industrial' terminal connector, very robust. Screw connections were also chosen as not everybody has a soldering iron.
All you need to connect the wires up is a good set of teeth (to strip the wire) and a small flat blade :lol:

[66ImpalaLT1]

My complaint about the USB-only approach is that it generally consumes more CPU than RS232 on the laptop. I'm sure it will be a problem for my laptop, as of now I cant view the graphs in realtime with V6. Its a Celeron 350 processor.

[Steve Bryant]

It appears to me that the EFILive folks are going to go either A - USB or B-RS 232 as the primary interface with the computer. That way, they do not have to go to the expense of developing and maintaining/updating two separate hardware versions (plus work-arounds for the inevitable related software issues). Either A or B can be adapted to interface with the other (although not in a fully seamless fashion in every case).

For a limited production device like FlashScan, it is extremely expensive to develop, maintain and stock in inventory two families of hardware devices. Although my three year old laptop has both RS 232 and USB 1.0 ports, most new laptops only have USB. In fact, RS 232 is being phased out as an interface protocol industry-wide on new devices.

I don't mean to be harsh, but it seems like you are getting on the ragged edge of "meeting the minimum hardware requirements." Most of us here are not "made out of money" and I certainly include myself. However, if you currently "can't view graphs in real-time with V6," the added functionality and features of FlashScan may be more than your current laptop can handle. There are some fairly low-cost alternatives. For instance, you could buy a recently obsolete model (probably below 1 GHz processor with both USB and RS 232 or a factory reconditioned model with a new guarantee. You wouldn't have to buy the cutting edge technology.

One other thought I would like to add. Can your LT1 in the '66 Impala be programmed as if it were a LS1/LS1 series PCM. Maybe that is just your handle and you have another vehicle with an LS1 powertrain. Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud and I would welcome your comments.

[emarkay]

I agree that the serial port is a dinosaur, but my approach has always been LCD (Lowest Common Denominator) - or in other words cheap as one can get. I understand that there will be NO RS232 (serial) support, which (IMHO) goes against the LCD logic, but as is well stated, supporting 2 interfaces is expensive on such a limited market item.

My Pentium 120 laptop (can you say the quintessential LCD device) is no longer a contendor, but I do have access to a "modern" Dell laptop I can borrow from the University.

BTW, last time I checked, for USB support in a decent laptop, it was still about $500 or so on Ebay... Half a thousand bucks is a major purchase for most people...

Maybe I can "mooch" a schematic for a serial version and "home etch" a few PC boards for us Luddites? :)

[Blacky]

BTW, last time I checked, for USB support in a decent laptop, it was still about $500 or so on Ebay...

I picked up a Toshiba laptop, Pentium 130MHz with USB for $260 NZ dollars - which is only USD $180.
That is our lowest specification machine on which we test EFILive.
Ok, so it died about 6 weeks after I purchased it. Motherboard failure - but it only cost NZD $60 (USD $40) to get the whole laptop *replaced* with another comparable model from a local laptop repair company.


Regards
Paul

[Blacky]

It appears to me that the EFILive folks are going to go either A - USB or B-RS 232 as the primary interface with the computer.

The USB/RS232 support is not an exclusive "either/or" deal. The FlashScan personal cable will be USB only. However we are also developing a flashscan workshop cable that will be larger (about twice the size of the personal cable) and it will contain more features.

Such as:
- More memory for longer black box logging.
- More A/D convertors (4 instead of 2)
- LCD display for displaying DTCs and other info - with no PC required.
- Both RS232 and USB interfaces.

We would have supported RS232 and USB in the personal version but the hardware/chipsets required to do that, will not fit in the small flashscan personal interface enclosure.

Regards
Paul

[emarkay]

OK - I should have also clarified the $500 laptop with +500 mHz and a few hundred megs of RAM... Would at least want to have something worthy of the "new century" If I was shopping around.... :)

BTW, just keeping the thought proceses open - glad to hear the clarification on this issue!

MRK

[DebianDog]

Any progress? Any problems? Keep us updated...

Still no word I guess.... Sigh.

You guys want me to buy that HPtuner don't ya.

J/K :wink:

[02 pewter Ls1]

I am on the bench between these two myself. I would prefer the FlashScan because I already own EFI V6 and think it is a great product. Any word when it will be ready and how much will the upgrade for people that already own EFI Live?

[emarkay]

Don't give up hope!
I know there's no excuse for interrupting progress, but the chief programmer's wife just had a baby - that should be good to a few days interruption in things. Keep in mind also, that because of the "downunder" time differences, it may be 2 days before a reply is posted.

Finally, note that there are no "pre order" or other shams going on here. It will be ready when it is ready, and there may be a week or so before any progress worth posting is made. I can assure that things are moving along.

Lastly, one other thing to consider... Would you trust your PCM, your powertrain, your car, and possibly your life to a product that doesn't provide literal one-on-one customer service, "sells no prodict before its time", and doesn't rely on its customers to be product testers, spouts paranoia hype in public, offers vaporware, and/or is almost proud of its unwillingness to respond to customer requests for improvements?

I can think of a few out there like that, and I know that the products from EFILive will meet the needs of its customers. (Otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time with them.)

MRK

[emarkay]

As for pricing, I know that's an issue, but even I can't 'conjure up' the pricing at this point. Aside from component, labor, R&D documentation, testing, and other development expenses, ther arer legal, and administratitive costs below all that, and then the marketing, promotion and packaging and shipping costs to be figured out.

Additionally, no one wants to sell something at so high a price it's not affordable to the average enthusiast, but also doesn't want it to be priced so low there is no return for further development, or (and unfortunately this is an issue) priced so low there is a credibility issue. I have personally encountered resistance to low priced products that are priced well under the competition while the fact is that the product is BETTER than the higher priced products. Unfortunately the marketplace rarely believes this, to everybodies loss.

Pricing is an art and a science, and you can be sure that every effort will be made to get this product out at the best price point, and it has already been said, that existing customers will be rewarded.

MRK

[jimmyblue]

Additionally, no one wants to sell something at so high a price it's not affordable to the average enthusiast, but also doesn't want it to be priced so low there is no return for further development, or (and unfortunately this is an issue) priced so low there is a credibility issue. I have personally encountered resistance to low priced products that are priced well under the competition while the fact is that the product is BETTER than the higher priced products. Unfortunately the marketplace rarely believes this, to everybodies loss.

MRK

Don't worry, dude, if you underprice it I still promise to believe you.
:wink:

Meanwhile I'm waiting for delivery on some paid-for "vaporware" and
if it condenses timely/properly that belief may become a lot less relevant.
To all appearances I'll be having ample time to evaluate it before having
to make that decision. Tick, tock....

Best to sling less mud and more code & Gerber files. :roll:

[GMPX]

Paul has said on one of the LS1Tech threads that we are aiming to ship by the end of the US summer.

So why announce it in the first place if we were not ready to ship by the next day, simple, some people need to save up for various mods, lets say they want a nice set of 19's, an exhaust, some other under bonnet mods and something to tune the car with. They figure, it looks like EFILive's tuning software will be out near the end of Summer, no probs, I'll get that exhaust fitted instead, I'm in no rush.

Sorry to you guys that want it NOW, but hey, I want an LS2, I ain't calling GM everyday asking when, I know it is coming though.......

I know you folks might not believe the hype without proof, but this Editor will be impressive, from what Paul has sent me so far I just get a big grin on my face thinking, oh yeah, that's a winner.
But if we let you all know exactly what it will offer over the others as far as features and additonal tuning parametrs you can bet in the 'updates' the others offer they will also include such features.
Better just to drop the big bomb and let them play catch-up.

For those that can't wait, we are sorry, and hope you enjoy your choice whatever it may be. For those that can hang out I am positive you won't regret it.

[Blacky]

but the chief programmer's wife just had a baby - that should be good to a few days interruption in things.

Better re-phrase that to chief PCM programmer's wife.
i.e. GMPX not me, :shock:

Paul

(The only thing that wakes me up early in the morning is phone calls from the US. Emarkay... hmmmm???? :lol: )

[emarkay]

Hey, Paul, don't blame me - Its YOUR fault you are not only hemispherically inverted as well as living a day in the future. You get an 18 hour head start on things, so stand on your head, look in a mirror, and start coding! :) :)

Yes, progress is being made!

One additional thought to ponder is that when you are doing a project as a labor of love, not only is the end result BETTER, but the "pride and willingness to assist" is MUCH greater in the final product. The downside is that the "push" and "priority" is tempered by the personal priorities in each of the participants. Yes, it's a commercial product, but while it's unfortunately the norm to sometimes obscure facts, to panic and to make commitments that are unrealistic in the world of "Big Business", I can and do assure you that EFILive and it's partners don't operate that way.

They are real people who love what they do and want to share their experiance. Figure out the amount of time thay have already spent and you'll see that they are NOT in it to make big $$. Other products may work as well, some may feature more "gee whiz" bells and whistles, while others may stare at you blankly while you scratch your head....

Be patient and you will be rewarded with a product that will exceed your expectations and if not, I can assure you that EFILive will do it's best to get you what you think is missing, to make it so. I have seen it happen and know this policy will continue!

MRK

[Drake]

Sounds great guys. I'd much rather wait for the best product. I see a lot of mature decisions being made, IE no "preorders", constantly-pushed-back-deadlines, etc.

Just keep us posted, seeing progress makes folks like myself happy.

[bink]

joel

[Highlander]

Yes I agree.. its better to wait a little longer for good products... I have been more than pleased with your logger, so why wouldn't I be with your tuner??? :D :lol: