Random flutter in AFR at idle whith logs, Help please lol.

[curtisdeville]

Hey guys, my name is Curtis and I am new to the site and tuning. I purchased the Efilive V2 about a month ago and have been reading up on tuning and buying movies and books ever since, I originally bought the V2 so I could have a tune for my lmm sent to me and I could update the ecm myself and I am a Chevy enthusiast to the max so figured I would learn to work on the tuning aspect of my car on top of the joy I take in upgrading the mechanical parts. Anyways I had my 2011 Camaro SS with the 6.2l auto and E38 ECM tuned last year by a local shop here in hamilton and now that I have the materials I need to look into my car I see that he only turned off the codes for my o2s so my for my headers and shut of the AFM but didnt touch any tables. I did a comparison with a stock file I downloaded and the tables are stock. Since he "tuned" my car though it is running rich (I can smell the fuel) and I get a random "flutter"in the engine only once when I am sitting say at a stop light, idling, and it seems completely random. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesnt. So I have attavhed the ECM file and a log of a drive I took that I happened to catch it on. The short term and long term fuel trims seem to pause before and during this time and the AFR goes from 14.68 down to 12.44, up to 15.96 and back to stoich all within about 5 seconds and I can hear the engine going through this. I am worried the When my Wideband comes in tomorrow and I set everything up to adjust my VVE, that if this happens it will hit a point, even for a a couple seconds, that is too lean or something else. Does anyone know or can you see what is going on here? I really appreciate the help and am enjoying the slow process of learning to do this stuff. Was just hoping not see see something weird like this before I go and follow the tutorials to do my first tune on my car. Also on a side note, can I follow the tutorial for idle tuning an ls1 that is pretty popular in these forums for my l99/ls3, is it pretty much the same process. Thanks guys, this is my first post and I hope it doesnt make me look dumb lol.

[joecar]

That fueling flutter you see is the catalyst efficiency test running...
( it looks like you don't have cats, or they're alot not working )
if you want to disable it see C1701.

[joecar]

From the set of pids you log, remove these (they're either the wrong ones):
- GM.AFR
- GM.TP
- GM.IBPW1/2
- CALC.INJDC1/2
- E38.AFRATIO (we're going to use SAE.LAMBDA instead; in light of alcohol content in gasoline, we want to avoid using AFR).

Log these instead:
- GM.ETCTP
- GM.INJPWB1/2
- CALC.INJDCB1/2 (see attached calc_pids.txt file)




Attached calc_pids.txt file: copy this to this folder: C:\Users\you<you>\Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration
and rename it to: calc_pids.txt

21863</you>

[curtisdeville]

Thank you sooooo much. Im gonna try that tomorrow, I really appreciate the replies. I have hiflow cats on since my long tube header install and brought it in to get the rear o2 codes tuned out and the mil light is off but it has ran rough ever since.

[joecar]

I forgot to attach a pic of your log showing the catalyst efficiency test...

it where lambda goes down and then up.


21878

[curtisdeville]

21880

Changing that code did help a ton and i cannot notice the "flutter" now!

My idle still feels like it going up and down constantly though just without the "flutter it was doing here and there. I do have long tube headers and high flow cats installed, and I am not sure if the idle issue is being caused by the o2s or not. The tune had the rear o2 mils shut off and now the cat efficiency testing off as well but I finally got my wideband in and although the car is commanding 14.68 the wideband is reading a constant up to around 15.4 and down to 13.1 or lambda 1.090ish and 0.950 if i remember right. I took another log with a different pid set with the car at idle, some smooth driving, a wot run and back to idle when I parked.

You guys dont understand how much I appreciate the time you took to look at my posts and if you could check it out one more time I wont bug ya again..... maybe lol. I am just really excited to get some good logs and start going through the tutorials but like everything else I do I have hurdles to get over before I can get going.

The car was sitting for a while so when I took it out last week I ran it dry and put some clean and new 94 octane in it and cleared the computer since my battery did get low while sitting. ps the car idled rough last year before I put it away and gm said it was fine when I took it in and had no codes nore any maintenance or visual issues. They thought I got a bad batch of gas but unless I got the last 20 tanks bad thats not my issue. Anyways if you could take the time to look at my log and see if everything looks normal or if maybe the headers are messing with the computer or I was thinking maybe one of the rear o2s was gone bad but my understanding is that the car doesnt use the post for fueling anyways. thank guys.

[curtisdeville]

Also I already did the calc pids file change as per the vve tutorial on here but I replaced it with the one you sent anyways but what does that file do? Am I supposed to open it in the scan and log as a pid file or something? or is it just a background setting.

[joecar]

The calc_pids.txt file defines calculated pids that appear in the V7 scantool.

Post your vve calc_pids.txt file, we need to merge the new calc_pids stuff into it.

[joecar]

21880

Changing that code did help a ton and i cannot notice the "flutter" now!

My idle still feels like it going up and down constantly though just without the "flutter it was doing here and there. I do have long tube headers and high flow cats installed, and I am not sure if the idle issue is being caused by the o2s or not. The tune had the rear o2 mils shut off and now the cat efficiency testing off as well but I finally got my wideband in and although the car is commanding 14.68 the wideband is reading a constant up to around 15.4 and down to 13.1 or lambda 1.090ish and 0.950 if i remember right. I took another log with a different pid set with the car at idle, some smooth driving, a wot run and back to idle when I parked.

You guys dont understand how much I appreciate the time you took to look at my posts and if you could check it out one more time I wont bug ya again..... maybe lol. I am just really excited to get some good logs and start going through the tutorials but like everything else I do I have hurdles to get over before I can get going.

The car was sitting for a while so when I took it out last week I ran it dry and put some clean and new 94 octane in it and cleared the computer since my battery did get low while sitting. ps the car idled rough last year before I put it away and gm said it was fine when I took it in and had no codes nore any maintenance or visual issues. They thought I got a bad batch of gas but unless I got the last 20 tanks bad thats not my issue. Anyways if you could take the time to look at my log and see if everything looks normal or if maybe the headers are messing with the computer or I was thinking maybe one of the rear o2s was gone bad but my understanding is that the car doesnt use the post for fueling anyways. thank guys.Post your current tune file, let's take a look...

[curtisdeville]

Hey joecar:) I actually posted a reoly before my last with a new log and bunch of info about how that did fix the random flutter but my wb i finally received is still reading and rapid uo and down in lambda at idle that i cant hear in the engine. i have high flow cats and long tube headers and am wondering if that when theyinstalled these it messed uo my o2s or if its something else but anyways ill repost them as soon as i get home as it didnt oist for some reason alomg wiht my pids file:) thanks again ! your awsome!

[curtisdeville]

This program makes me feel real dumb at times... but are these the files you wanted me to post? These are the pids that I made for the vve logging when I started the tutorial. I dont have another calc_pids file in the config cause I replaced the original with the one I got from you. I also posted a log of the up and down afrs I am getting (Ithought at idle) throughout my rpms. I brought the car in to gm last year and they said they looked over everything and thought maybe it was just a bad tank of gas but it never went away. I also thought it was maybe from my long tube headers and high flow cats but the car has run like this since I bought it as far as I can remember. I did recently try and clear the ethanol readings, and the fuel trims to see if the computer would relearn a better way to idle lol. But like I said the random anoying flutter is gone:)

[joecar]

No worries, I understand learning curve.

Post your most current .ctz file.

Ok, I think the new clac_pids.txt is actually based on the old one (relating to VE/VVE) so you didn't lose anything.



What mods does car have beside long tube headers...?

And it was previously tuned (you said above)... for those mods..?

[curtisdeville]

"Camaro curt tune 1" is the current tune installed on the car now that is the original factory file with no mods except the I turned off the afm and the cat efficiency code we discussed earlier. I figured I would start fresh so I know what is done to my car and start fresh.

"Camaro Oakville no o2" is the file that I have been running since I had the long tubes installed. I brought it in to a shop that charged me 450 to "tune" the car to make adjustments for my aftermarket parts which include a K N cold air intake, flowmaster long tube headers, dual high flow cats, and a 3" flowmaster cat back exhaust. After the parts install the check engine light kept coming on and they turned out to be cat codes for bank 1 and 2 rears o2s but I cant remember off the top of my head exactly what codes. So he turned off the check engine codes and turned off the afm and said he would dial in my fuel tables but as far as I can tell its all untouched except the engine codes and afm.

[curtisdeville]

Took the car for a nice long drive today so the computer could catch up with the learning since i cleared all the pcm data and put the stock tune back in with all the mils that were shut off by that guy for my o2s to see if that would help with the idle afr. it didnt unfortunately and the o2 sensor codes obviously came back with a check engine light so i guess he did shut off the right stuff to make the car run without showing a check engine light for the rear o2s being to cold and far from the cylinders.

[curtisdeville]

Im read that some vehicles use the rear o2 sensors as well as the fronts to adjust fuel trims but im kinda sure this camaro does not since I read alot of posts about people having the get the rear o2s shut off after their long tne headers installed and they seem to not have a problem after. unless theres a way to actually completely shut remiver then from the pcms system instead of just turning off the mil reports?

[joecar]

I'm still looking at your tune/log.


The ECM uses the rear O2 sensors to perform trimming only in very specific circumstances, and I don't think you fell into that hole.

[curtisdeville]

I appreciate you taking the time:) Just bought some online courses from the tuning school cant wait to find the time to start em!

[curtisdeville]

I was taking more logs and shouldnt the front o2s be reading rich/lean semi simultaneously? Any chance that it looks like one is reading slow?

[joecar]

The front O2's should be cycling at at least 3 Hz, no slower.

Post a log file.

[curtisdeville]

Hey sorry I havent replied but I have been getting the car ready for the summer! Here is my wideband reading at idle, no check engine light....

[curtisdeville]

Already smoked the system as well, no leaks

[joecar]

Hey sorry I havent replied but I have been getting the car ready for the summer! Here is my wideband reading at idle, no check engine light....
The HO2S11/HO2S21 voltages show that the front sensors are cycling once every 12 seconds, this is way too slow...

WO2LAM1 shows what is going on, and it agrees with the front O2 voltages...

and the pids SAE.FUELSYS-A/B indicate that you're in Closed Loop.



For E38, log SAE.LAMBDA instead of GM.EQIVRATIO

[curtisdeville]

Yes the slow response time was the first thing I noticed so I chanhed out the front o2s with ac delcos from the dealership. It does get quicker obviously as I increase rpms. Is this usual for long tube headers? And sorry about those same pids I just opened a quick pid file and logged it after work so i could get it up here and didnt check em all.

[statesman]

I finally got my wideband in and although the car is commanding 14.68 the wideband is reading a constant up to around 15.4 and down to 13.1 or lambda 1.090ish and 0.950 if i remember right.

Yep, that's what happens when you fit long tubes. Closed loop fueling is controlled by what's known as a PID controller (proportional–integral–derivative controller). When you fit long tubes, you need to adjust the derivative part of the controller. Unfortunately, that parameter is not available in EFILive for your OS.

[curtisdeville]

Someone please tell me this isnt true. I have way too much invested in this for me not to be able to use efilive to fix it..... Its kinda hard to get started when my afrs are all over the place, what can I do?

[curtisdeville]

Now that i have your info statesman (appreciated beyond beleif) I have been searching the subject and find alot of threads about people in efilivr and hp emailing and asking for support for a closed loop proporfional base vs air flow or similar and Ive read that hp got it for 1010 forward but efilive doesnt? I cant be the only person who installed ltheaders on their camaro or vette and needed access to it....

[curtisdeville]

Is my only option to start going through the tutorials and run it full time ol?

[joecar]

Try this (read thru it first before trying): Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log) (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log))

[joecar]

hmmm, I didn't think long tube headers would slow down the response by that much (1 or more second delay).

[curtisdeville]

Ive been talking with alot of people on other forums and reading all day and the only option i seem to come up with is to bring it in and get it tuned. The whole reason I started reading about tuning and investing in it was because it made sense that I would be able to fix it with a tune good tune but am I really stuck? Before I can even begin? theres got to be some setting, some table some map, its not an uncommon car im working on here and tons of people install lt headers. I dont want to have to pay a tuner the minute i get set up and ready to start my journey with the software. please joecar tell me theres something I can do... please

[curtisdeville]

Ive read those a hundred times but in the end I should put it back into cl to be safe no? I live in canada where the temps vary from -40 to +40 let alone the other variables. Plus we dont do the sniffeer test but do have obd2 etests and the car is a daily driver weekend racer lol.

[joecar]

CL is really good for everyday driving where you're not logging every time you run the vehicle...

same with MAF;

i.e. MAF + CL allows the PCM to keep everything good, regardless of tuning and/or weather conditions.

[curtisdeville]

Yes and safer as well by my understanding. The whole reason I invested into this software was to be able to tale control of my cars computer to make it more efficient and overall run better. But I could make the best tune ever made and the car is still going to run horrible as soon as i finish and throw it into closed loop. I took it for a ride last night and the afrs jump from .950 to 1.055 constantly from idle all the way up to 6500 rpms. This is something I really wish I could have found info about before I spent the money and just my luck like always. I jist cant wrap my head around the option not being there. Should be a post somewhere lol, wont help if you have LT headers:(

[curtisdeville]

Does anyone know of a way or other program that you could use to male this change? I really dont want to pick up am hptuner just for this when Ive already made the choice to use efilive... any solutions at all?

[joecar]

let me find out.

[statesman]

Don't worry too much about it. Not many people with HPTuners even know how to adjust this properly. It just means that your 02 switching will overshoot a bit more than normal and you'll see this in your wideband readings. Just switch to open loop for your tuning (to minimize fueling errors) and then put it back into closed loop for normal driving. The overshoot will affect fuel economy slightly but won't be noticeable in the way it drives.

[curtisdeville]

Ya Ive been researching this for the last week and Id bet my left nut that most of the posts on forums about 02 problems with headers are because of the time delay. Most of the answers lead to heating problems but it never helps turning them up. I have begun working on an sd tune and it looks like until efilive adds "a Fast o2 coefficients table" or an "o2 transport delay pid" to the software, Im kinda stuck. I find tons of people looking for the solution for this and just letting it go and dealing with it but it does really make your idle crappy and the conputer is constantly behind of fueling. I cant let it go, not sure if my case is a little more extreme than others or not but it sucks and I would imagine is not the best tjing for the engine either.

[statesman]

EFILive is never going to add any more tables to your OS. They don't care much for older OS's and their focus is shifting away from gas vehicles. If you ask them nicely, they might supply you with a bin file for your tune. If you can get the bin file, then I can 'try' to find the location of that parameter and write a cax for it. There's no guarantee that I would be able to find it... but I'd have a good look for you if you can get the bin file.

[curtisdeville]

Ill shoot them an email now. Cant hurt to ask I guess. Ill get the bin file somehow if they cant help thanks again man will gey back to this page as soon as I get somewhere.

[curtisdeville]

I have beeb through swingtans e38 amd the autove a hundred tumes and finally unplugged the maf and applied the calibrations to start an sd tune. The car had a real rough time startibg and once it did ran extremely lean at low idle and rich at high idle. is this normal while I am logging the benwbo2 maps?

[GMPX]

Yep, that's what happens when you fit long tubes. Closed loop fueling is controlled by what's known as a PID controller (proportional–integral–derivative controller). When you fit long tubes, you need to adjust the derivative part of the controller. Unfortunately, that parameter is not available in EFILive for your OS.
Are these PID controls tables or just single parameters?


EFILive is never going to add any more tables to your OS. They don't care much for older OS's and their focus is shifting away from gas vehicles.
This is something often thrown around on the forum, that EFILive doesn't care about 'x', the reality is that EFILive can't continue to remain in business by focusing on 12 year old controllers (yes the E38 came out 12 years ago).
Many factors (aside from ECM age or fuel type) determine where our R&D time goes, I don't even own a GM car these days but I am not bothering to try to add support for what I drive now, we just follow customer demands and possible market vacancies so we can remain in business. Learnt the lesson many years ago it is impossible to please everyone.


Ill shoot them an email now. Cant hurt to ask I guess. Ill get the bin file somehow if they cant help thanks again man will gey back to this page as soon as I get somewhere.
If anyone can detail what these parameters are to save us some time we can look to add them in, but it won't be over the 50+ OS's the E38/E67 share.

Big thanks to Joe for his assistance so far on this topic.

Cheers,
Ross

[curtisdeville]

Ive been reading and reading and reading and I cant find the exact location just what the "other guys" have to help with it and their location numbers...

#1 [ECM] 12480 - Closed Loop Proportional Base vs. Airflow Mode: This table returns the base proportional % fuel change. Proportional base rate table is the primary amount of fuel needed to drive the closed loop fuel control into oscillation. Proportional fuel acts like an on/off switch to keep the fuel moving around the current O2 Rich/Lean vs. Mode table set point. The values on the Proportional Table add or subtract to the base fuel rate depending on the previous fuel condition (i.e. if rich then switch lean, if lean the switch rich). The amount of fuel to add or subtract increases with the airflow mode and should be based on injector size and % fuel switching needed.

#2 [ECM] 12481 - Closed Loop Proportional Gain vs. O2 Error: This table returns a multiplier value for the increase/decrease of the base rate table. A multiplier value of 1.000 will have no effect on the proportional base rate. If the difference between the current O2 reading and its desired value from table O2 Rich/Lean vs. Mode (the current Fast O2 error) is large the VCM will need to change the proportional fuel a lot. If the error is small, it should change it only a little to continue oscillation without undershoot or overshoot. Undershooting will cause the Closed loop fuel to become sluggish or miss the current O2 Rich/Lean vs. Mode table set point. Overshooting with cause the engine to vary excessively in RPM.

#3 [ECM] 12470 - Closed Loop Integrator Delay vs. Airflow Mode: This table returns the base integrator delay. The integrator is a function of the Slow Filtered O2 Error over time, The integrator handles persistent rich or lean fuel conditions based on the slow O2 error and Rich/Lean vs. Airflow mode. The Base Delay vs. Airflow Mode table is the minimum time in milliseconds an overly rich or lean condition needs to exist before the VCM is allowed to make a fuel correction.

#4 [ECM] 12466 - Closed Loop Mode vs. Airflow: This table defines the Airflow mode the Closed Loop routines use to operate. It controls selection of various gains and delays used to interpret the O2 sensor signals.

[curtisdeville]

Ps I think its amazing how quick you guys replied to me and that you took the time to try and help.

[GMPX]

Yikes, four tables :ermm:
Oh well, we'll see what we can do.

[curtisdeville]

I may not need all of these. The one that matters the most for the long tube headers is the one that adjusts the time delay between the o2 signal and combustion event because of extra distance of the airflow. Im gonna do some research this morning and see if theres an easier way. I think in the ls1 there is a single adjustment.

[curtisdeville]

"O2 Airflow rate factor = The airflow rate factor represents the transport delay for the exhaust to reach the O2 sensors." Not sure if this is available as a single table for gen iv or not

[statesman]

Are these PID controls tables or just single parameters?


If anyone can detail what these parameters are to save us some time we can look to add them in, but it won't be over the 50+ OS's the E38/E67 share.

These parameters are all tables. They're pretty much the same as the tables available in LS1b calibrations... {B4109}, {B4110}, {B4111}, {B4112}, {B4113}, {B4114}.... but I'm not sure if the E38 has separate tables for idle and off-idle. Of all these will be useful to him, but {B4113} and {B4114} are the ones he really needs.

[statesman]

This is something often thrown around on the forum, that EFILive doesn't care about 'x', the reality is that EFILive can't continue to remain in business by focusing on 12 year old controllers (yes the E38 came out 12 years ago).
Many factors (aside from ECM age or fuel type) determine where our R&D time goes, I don't even own a GM car these days but I am not bothering to try to add support for what I drive now, we just follow customer demands and possible market vacancies so we can remain in business. Learnt the lesson many years ago it is impossible to please everyone.

Hey, I didn't mean what I said to sound nasty.... it's just a fact that you don't really look at older OS's. I understand you have to make business decisions and putting time into older OS's isn't going to make you any money. It's just really unfortunate for the people who end up stranded because they have an OS which doesn't have the parameters necessary for correcting for a basic mod like long tube headers.

[curtisdeville]

Thank you

[joecar]

Is there any chance some of those tables can make it into GenIII 12212156...?

:):):):):):):):):):):):)

[statesman]

Is there any chance some of those tables can make it into GenIII 12212156...?

:):):):):):):):):):):):)

I think that they are already there.

[GMPX]

Sorry, I've had a few issues pop up that is going to have me tied up for a bit with other things (plus I'm away over the Easter break), this won't be looked at until mind/late April at this stage.
Someone smart enough might pop some cax data up?

[curtisdeville]

I understand and appreciate your looking into it for me:) I am just going to work on getting the car dialed in while I wait, should keep me busy for a while. Is there any chance at me getting the bin file for my tune?

[joecar]

I think that they are already there.Ah, yes, I found 3 of them...

[joecar]

#1 [ECM] 12480 - Closed Loop Proportional Base vs. Airflow Mode: This table returns the base proportional % fuel change. Proportional base rate table is the primary amount of fuel needed to drive the closed loop fuel control into oscillation. Proportional fuel acts like an on/off switch to keep the fuel moving around the current O2 Rich/Lean vs. Mode table set point. The values on the Proportional Table add or subtract to the base fuel rate depending on the previous fuel condition (i.e. if rich then switch lean, if lean the switch rich). The amount of fuel to add or subtract increases with the airflow mode and should be based on injector size and % fuel switching needed.
B4111/B4112...?



#2 [ECM] 12481 - Closed Loop Proportional Gain vs. O2 Error: This table returns a multiplier value for the increase/decrease of the base rate table. A multiplier value of 1.000 will have no effect on the proportional base rate. If the difference between the current O2 reading and its desired value from table O2 Rich/Lean vs. Mode (the current Fast O2 error) is large the VCM will need to change the proportional fuel a lot. If the error is small, it should change it only a little to continue oscillation without undershoot or overshoot. Undershooting will cause the Closed loop fuel to become sluggish or miss the current O2 Rich/Lean vs. Mode table set point. Overshooting with cause the engine to vary excessively in RPM.
not sure which table this is...?



#3 [ECM] 12470 - Closed Loop Integrator Delay vs. Airflow Mode: This table returns the base integrator delay. The integrator is a function of the Slow Filtered O2 Error over time, The integrator handles persistent rich or lean fuel conditions based on the slow O2 error and Rich/Lean vs. Airflow mode. The Base Delay vs. Airflow Mode table is the minimum time in milliseconds an overly rich or lean condition needs to exist before the VCM is allowed to make a fuel correction.
B4113.


#4 [ECM] 12466 - Closed Loop Mode vs. Airflow: This table defines the Airflow mode the Closed Loop routines use to operate. It controls selection of various gains and delays used to interpret the O2 sensor signals.
B4107.

[curtisdeville]

It looka like I am dead in the water as Ive searched high and low for a bin file for my os and came up short. Looks like the tables I really need are the b4113 and b4114. Everything else went great by the way just cant throw it back into closed loop till I get the o2s reading properly. When you find the time Il be a waiting with bells on.

[curtisdeville]

Hey Joecar. Sorry I havent got back to you. I bought a smoke machone and smoked the entire exhaust and intake myself to try and find leaks but nothing:( Changed the spark plugs and wires, bought new gm o2s hoping it would help a little but naw ..Im going to have to park the car in hopes that the efilive team will add those tables to get my car reading the o2s properly and go from there. Thabks for all your help man:)

[joecar]

No worries, we all got stuff going on.

Let me think this thru (a lot of us have run long tubes with trims)...

[curtisdeville]

I am just going to post my tune and info in hopes that the efilive team does get around to making the fast o2 coefficent tables accessible. I have found a way to get access to what I need but it involves other hardware and software and tons more money just to get access to these tables so I am really hoping they can get around to it so I can get my car running properly.

gen-IV V8
E38
OS:12639270
cal:12639269
os id:AA
BCC:AAR2
version: 7.60

[joecar]

I got your email, and I'm looking.