what's the real on water/methanol injection and mixtures!

[madprof01]

How'dy folks,
We have been selling water/ methanol injection with most of the turbo systems the go out the door. I like the concept and seeing lower iat's, making closer to stock timing values. However, my manager will not budge on a 50/50 mix. It works but I am noticing a pattern of timing values that are very close to the numbers the same vehicle runs w/o meth at the same boost. I have heard so many different opinions I don't know where to start experimenting if I was allowed. I believe that the water plays a big role in controlling the combustion. on the other hand it does not compress ( so I have been told). The methanol not only boosts octane but it absorbes heat, makes for a denser charge. What are the experiences others have had, and which mixtures allowed for a signifigant timing increase, because timing makes power don't ya know!!! Another thing is that i have to literally refuse to tune with meth. He thinks the vehile should be tuned with it and i say the vehicle should be tuned without to ensure safety, enough fueling, and provide a solid place to start playing with other variables. Then the meth becomes a bonus and the vehicle is not reliant mehtanol availabilty and always working to run and perform well.
Thanks,
madprof01

[emarkay]

Some more information:
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=937176
http://not2fast.wryday.com/thermo/water_injection/
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=208833 :)
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=189

BTW, it was NOT the Corvair that had the OEM Water/Methanol setup, but the 1962/3 Oldsmobile with the 215 V8!

"...In 1962, Olds, along with AiResearch, introduced a 'turbocharged' (called Fluid Injection) version of this engine, which put "Turbo Rocket Fluid" (½ distilled water, ½ methyl alcohol) into the carb. Along with a 10.25:1 compression ratio, yielded 0-60 in 8.5 seconds (with the manual tranny). The turbo was a Garrett TO-3 with an integral wastegate, the first. Unfortunately, due to the 10:1 compression ratio, boost was limited to only 5 psi, not the best use of a turbo.

The induction setup itself is fairly sophisticated (especially for 1962), with something like 54 separate connections to the intake system. The turbo has an integral wastegate, being the first mass production turbo application to use a wastegate. The turbo has a large oil line running directly from the oil pump to keep oil present to the bearings. If they get hot (running hard) they must not be shut down without a cool down period. This was arguably the most complex induction system build to that time, with something like 50 different hose connections in the intake system (pressure sensors, wastegate, fluid injection, fuel, etc).

Olds attempted to get around the boost lag problem by using a high compression ratio (10:1!), which limited boost to only 5 psi. Fluid injection (Turbo Rocket Fluid) was used (a water/alcohol mix) to suppress detonation. Properly running cars will not go into boost if the "Turbo Rocket Fluid" resevoire is empty. There is an automatic shutoff for this. Parts for this injection system are even harder to get than the turbo parts.

The carb is a rare single barrel Rochester side-draft unit, whose only other application was on the Corvair Turbo. While they resemble the Corvair carb, they are much larger. They share some parts with an ordinary 2-barrel V-8 Rochester such as floats, needles & seats, etc.

The Olds' turbocharged Jetfire was supposedly quicker than the 4V version, but it had maintenance problems due to its complex mechanics for that era. It attained the magic goal of 1 HP per CID. A power boost on the order of 40% was claimed. The automatic Cutlass with 10.75:1 compression gave 195 HP @ 4800 and 235 lb/ft @ 3200. The Jetfire's 10.25:1 compression gave 215 HP @ 4800 and 300 lb/ft @ 3200...."

http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofjet.htm

[caver]

My boss loves the stuff and loves to wind the timing up wen injecting water not even water/methanol.
I think its a band aid and if the motor is set up right water injection is not needed.
Water/methanol is fine by me as a power adder.
On another note I did a water/metanol kit on a BMW 330d the other day and it worked better than I thought.
Felt almost like nitrous when it came in :)

[Tydriver]

The guys over on www.syty.net are quite versed in the use of Meth.. Most hardcore guys are running 100% Meth.

If you can tolerate the sometimes 'high school-ish' attitude on syty.net you can probably get some useful infromation..

SyTy's came with turbo's and its been well researched and used in the past in out applications (stock v6 motor application)..

There is no octane rating on water, and really not benefit to injecting it into the intake tract. Used to be, the SyTy crowd was a follower in the Aquamist(water only) arena, then along came Meth Injection, its nuts to watch a datalog and watch the IAT's drop below ambient (I've even seen a run where the guy had 32*F IAT's at the end of a run) and remember this is on a turbocharged vehicle with a rather inefficient Intercooler. I forget what octane Meth is off hand but its close to that of race gas (or better)..

There are even some SyTys running around with OUT intercoolers, using METH solely as the liquid intercooler !!

IMO, it should NOT replace fueling or correct injector sizing, but its a helpful tool when used correctly.

[caver]

I believe methanol is around 140 octane

[Chuck L.]

www.alkycontrol.com
Julio makes a NICE kit, and has an extensive background with the injection systems that are used on turbo Buicks, and other makes..:D