Start over,

[Tinbender59]

I pulled the factory tune out of the ECU that came with the motor(i have kept it untouched) , it is a 2004 8.1/Allison. I swapped in a 4L80E 4X4 segment and diagnostics, killed all of the "unnecessary" stuff, anti-theft, changed all Electronic Throttle stuff to cable stuff. fattened up VE a bunch, opened up the torque limits..... took a test drive - it be lots better. now I'll start the tuning process. any advice as where to start? I'm thinking CALC.VET?? here is a copy of the current tun that I am planning to start with

22211

[Tinbender59]

Took it for a drive, monitored missfire counts on all cylinders, #4 had 49 hits, and #7 had 90 hits in roughly 20 min. Is that ok? The other tune was having an insane amount of missfires.

[Tinbender59]

P.S. I have been reading a lot of the posts, and i have to admit, I'm lost!! I feal like you guys compaired to me, is like Star trek compaired to wooden ships.and it probably shows in the ignorant questions that I ask, so please pardon my ignorant ramblings

[joecar]

Took it for a drive, monitored missfire counts on all cylinders, #4 had 49 hits, and #7 had 90 hits in roughly 20 min. Is that ok? The other tune was having an insane amount of missfires.49 + 90 misfires in 20 minutes is quite low...

however, might want to take a closer look at #4 and #7 just to see if there's anything physical.

[joecar]

Are you running a MAF...?

[Tinbender59]

Yes on MAF, not opposed to loosing it later once it is dialed in. I have new NGK plugs, and 185 thermostat. Im wondering about coils??

[Tinbender59]

I did verify ECU to coil, and injector wiring, all good there

[joecar]

Yes, I would try CALC.VET, this will quickly get your MAF corrected.

[ProperTuningOG]

We do a substantial amount of 8.1 conversions and have half of them running SD... Where we see misfire is with various different exhaust manifolds and headers. Since the old 454 stuff will fit we often use that to run a long tube in a squarebody or other stock BBC apps. This often gets us in trouble with plug wire routing and we end up building super long wires to wrap around, down and under the exhaust. Don't know what you are doing for that, maybe its the stock 8.1 manifolds. If so start looking at fuel and ignition. From there go mechanical if every thing else is good.

[joecar]

Post a pic of your engine bay so we can see plug wires.

[Tinbender59]

Here is drivers side

[Tinbender59]

Cylinders 1 & 3

[Tinbender59]

Cylinders 5 & 7

[ProperTuningOG]

Is it logging a misfire code? Fast flash on the dash?

[Tinbender59]

Yes i did get a fast flashing CEL. It is my understanding that, that isnt good. Drove the truck over to the neighbors house (had to get my fix) just before i came to work and she set the CEL. I'll get codes in the morning.

[Tinbender59]

Here are the codes, looks bad to me

[Tinbender59]

I did check vin it is correct, is there a discrepancy between the 411 and the 1MB ECU pinouts, (can't remember the number)?

[Tinbender59]

Made a short run, the tun is not set up for anything yet just a monitor run. Here ate the current DTC's

[Tinbender59]

here is a short scan, I'm not ready to switch back to the 411 just yet. l0l

[joecar]

ok, I'll take a look.

[Tinbender59]

ok, I'll take a look.

thanks Joe, it is probably explained somewhere; I have made changes to the engine diagnostics, do I have to download the whole program now (far right Icon)?

[Tinbender59]

I ended up running to a tractor fire about an hour after the last information posted. While running around she set the MIL lamp. Here is what i found. I have modified all the MIL request settings for the transmission electronics, as soon as i get them downloaded to the ecu, ill get better information.

[ProperTuningOG]

Did you swap both transmission segments?

[Tinbender59]

I thought i did? I can build another one just to make sure

[Tinbender59]

Did you swap both transmission segments?

Just a silly question, would you have a tun that would be set up for my current configuration, that could be used as a start/tune base?

[ProperTuningOG]

This is in a swapped engine?

[ProperTuningOG]

Attached is a base file from a yukon that was already a 4l80. You have to remember when you change the trans segments you also have to watch the engine diagnostic segment as fault processing will change.

File attached is speed density, so pull that MAF wire. It was built around a slightly looser converter, so down low may want some more fuel. This is not a stock file. If you are wanting a bunch more fuel across the board, something is wrong.

22237

[Tinbender59]

Yes, frame/motor harness/4L80E - 1999; cab/cab wiring - 2001; motor - 2004 8.1 motor harnesses repined for LS2 sensors and re configured for 8.1 90% of the wiring is confirmed as correct

[Tinbender59]

Attached is a base file from a yukon that was already a 4l80. You have to remember when you change the trans segments you also have to watch the engine diagnostic segment as fault processing will change.

File attached is speed density, so pull that MAF wire. It was built around a slightly looser converter, so down low may want some more fuel. This is not a stock file. If you are wanting a bunch more fuel across the board, something is wrong.

22237

Thank you ill give it a try, the tun is 4x4 corect? Just checkin

[Tinbender59]

And, no I did not know about the engine parameters affecting the trans parameters. But once you mentioned that it makes sense to me

restart again!! Lol but with help ;-)

[ProperTuningOG]

What LS2 sensors are you talking about?

[Tinbender59]

Crank and cam, LS1 to LS2 are pined backwards, learned that the expensive way. Bought new sensors before I found the information

[ProperTuningOG]

You have an 8.1.........

[Tinbender59]

Yes sir

[Tinbender59]

The 2004 8.1 uses the LS2 sensor stratagy if that makes sense

[ProperTuningOG]

It uses a different cam position sensor not crank. The reluctor and timing cover is different as well. You cant just change the sensor.

[Tinbender59]

Ya i believe you are right

[ProperTuningOG]

Was you engine originally an 04?

[Tinbender59]

Was you engine originally an 04?

Yes K3500

[ProperTuningOG]

04 already had the new sensor style. Interested in what exactly you swapped

[Tinbender59]

99 - 6.0 to the 04 - 8.1

[ProperTuningOG]

Oh you mean engines... LOL. You swapped the harness and everything right? Its now a blue green as the tune shows?

[Tinbender59]

I had to repin the conector for crank sensor, it was backwards from 1999 to 2004

[ProperTuningOG]

WHat harness did you use for the current setup 99 6.0 or 04 8.1?

[Tinbender59]

99 6.0

[Tinbender59]

04 8.1 was allison and DBW

[ProperTuningOG]

K, the pinout difference is not LS1 to LS2. The cam difference is front cam sensor vs rear. The crank is LS vs 8.1.

So did you repin the ECM to blue green?

[Tinbender59]

I'm not sure what you are calling repin, but I did swap wiring to cam sensor and to the crank sensor physical location, and then repined to the correct ECU location, i do not have diagram here. But i did spend a considerable amount of time on this very issue.

[ProperTuningOG]

A 99 ecm would have been a half meg red blue ecm. The file you listed on the first post is a 1 meg blue green ecm. This is what I mean by re pin, did you change ecms?

[Tinbender59]

Im sorry, yes blue/green connector covers 1 meg ECU

[Tinbender59]

6243

[ProperTuningOG]

Drive by cable? If it is, I'll have to rework the file I put up. What BASE file did you use?

[Tinbender59]

The current file started out as the original 8.1DBW/Allison, 4L80E segments swapped in, and everything that I could find switched over to DBC even went through the transmission stuff to. Used a 6.0 TB

[ProperTuningOG]

Cool, file I sent was setup for wire. Just set it up the same way for cable as you did the other file.

[Tinbender59]

Cool. Thank you

[Tinbender59]

Does that have the lift shift cleared up on it I personally don't like that shifting down when you let up off the gas

[ProperTuningOG]

File is a stock yukon for shifting.

[Tinbender59]

Ok thanks a bunch, I'll get it loaded on the laptop tomorrow and chang to DBC, and give it a try

[Tinbender59]

Ok I flaahed the Tahoe tune in "full flash", i must have missed something, it would run for 5 seconds then shut down. I reflashed my tune in, cleared set DTC codes. Drove it, rechecked codes, i am now getting a MAF code. I did disconnect the MAF for the Tahoe tun, but i did reconnect it for my tun. I'll get more information tomorrow, had to get an excaped horse reincarnated befor i headed to work

[Tinbender59]

Oh i did swap the 4l80e segments out of the Tahoe tun into mine before full reflash of mine into the ECU

[ProperTuningOG]

I forgot to hit the maf error processing. My fault.

22238

[Tinbender59]

Ah cool all good now??

[Tinbender59]

I believe the -1 tun is ready to test out tomorrow morning

[Tinbender59]

No joy. Still wont stay running, is the Tahoe looking at oil pressure input??
Also reloaded my tune, drove it to town and back. I noticed after an upshift that it would stumble, i am still getting the Maf performance flag?? I also do not have an oil level sensor. And getting that flag as well

[Tinbender59]

Okay after looking at the log looks like the map map sensor is stuck or bad so if it's bad and the mass airflow sensor is bad we're going to have some really weird effects I would guess next on the agenda is buy a new map map sensor bought the motor running"""? but did not give me any information as far as how well it ran. Any idea what other sensors I should check has a new crank sensor new cam sensor already, new throttle position sensor

[ProperTuningOG]

SD isnt going to run without a good MAP

[Tinbender59]

Yup. I kinda figured that?? Let me get sensors replaced and we'll try again. (Thumbs up)

[Tinbender59]

Replaced the MAP sensor, reloaded the Tahoe -1 with DBC enabled. Started, stumbled, and settled into a 700rpm idle. Drove it 7 miles to town and back. No stumble after shift. However 10 min drive home i logged over 680 misfires on #7, and i can feel a "studder" on acceleration. I did light up DVT and kill #7, and that was a100 times worse miss lol hopefully a bad coil or plug wire. I'll get into it tomorrow. I have spares, so prolly just do a swap out. As soon as I get the misfires cleared up I will start tunning the beast;-)

[Tinbender59]

I have the Pids selected, map created, tune perimeters changed, as per the "veautotune" tutorial. but I have a question; it says "Copy the {B5913} "Spark High_Octane Table" to the {B5914} "Spark Low_Octane Table".... Am I to understand that the "High_Octane Table is updated during this auto tune process? just trying to understand the whole process.

[Tinbender59]

I guess i should clarify, i understand carbs well, back in the day i studied carb theory, read anything about them that i could find. Specifically Holley carbs. I read about emulsion tubes, draft tubes... And i am an electronic technician trained in "to the component" repair. If i can pull both of those together, mabe I'll get this EFI tunning figured out. ROFL

[ProperTuningOG]

Get your fuel 100% before you worry about timing.

[Tinbender59]

R & R'ed #4 & #7 coils; checked both wires, under 1200 ohm's. Now #7 threw over 3500 misfires in 6 miles???? Could it be injectors?? I'll pull plugs as soon as i can, get a look at the color.

Conectors aside will ford 5.0 injectors fit the LS1 motors??

I have a set of 30# type 3's

[ProperTuningOG]

How long did the engine sit? We've gotten to the point we clean and flow test all injectors for conversions now.

[Tinbender59]

It was setting for 4+ years. I was thinking that. I guess injectors are on the agenda now unless i can find a place to get them cleaned

[Tinbender59]

Found a local shop that will clean and check the injectors for $14 an injector

[joecar]

Found a local shop that will clean and check the injectors for $14 an injector
See if they will measure average flow of each, to see how closely matched they are (and so you can put the highest flowing injector in #7 and #8).

[Tinbender59]

Ok. Have my injectors back, here is a copy of test data, numbers do not match motor cylinders

[Tinbender59]

well it has been a battle but I finally have gotten the missfire counts down to "0". injectors cleaned, intake R & R'd, all good now.

had to do a complete program load to get the DTC stuff

now lets get down to business, where do I start??? lol


here is the tune that is currently loaded tun, and a misfire scan

22317

22316

[Tinbender59]

I have an appointment tomorrow at 11:00am to get certified for highway use, I hope to be able to get in a little data logging for tuning done 45 min drive one way. rechecking the tune and setting perimeters for SD tuning tonight.

[joecar]

Let me know how it goes.

Which State...?

[Tinbender59]

Let me know how it goes.

Which State...?

Kansas, 3 hours Wednesday at inspection - passed with no issues, 2.5 hrs at the tag counter Thursday, but she is now inspected, tagged, and insured, on the road legally!!!

I drove it to work today, an hour 1 way all 4 lane road. followed the Open Loop SD tuning tutorial. Either I messed it up or something aint right. i will post my logged data, an my current tune.

then i have a question; under section "E) Update Tune:" Line 11) Select all cells on the table and past "as factor" ? I cant find anything that says "paste as factor" ? obviously I R Blind LOL


now hopefully the attachments made it

[Tinbender59]

also here is a couple of short logs, both in succession before the 04 log. i increased VE by 15% twice before the 03 log. my O2 is now running 10 to 13 on AFR and stable 12.xx at cruise

sorry got the numbers messed up, ooo1 is no good

[statesman]

Fix your "Out of Range" tables and also fix your power enrichment table {B3618}.

[Tinbender59]

"Fix your "Out of Range" tables and also fix your power enrichment table {B3618}."

Ok I can do that, but my Efilive says "all good"??? i did copy B3618 from the factory tune.

this is my first "real" attempt at tuning, so if I upset you old salts, i apologize for my ignorance ahead of time.

[Tinbender59]

Ok out of bounds stuff fixed!! IAT sensor ground wire cut!!! While I was at it, I put the "tune" back to factory settings. I took the factory 2004 - 8100, tune line by line and copied it into the Tahoe tune. Now it runs like it should untuned.

The current question is? Do i start with speed density, or CALC VET?? I can go either way, just need advice

[ProperTuningOG]

Why are you cutting the IAT?

[Tinbender59]

Sorry! I didn't explain correctly, it was cut and I fixed it.

[statesman]

Ok out of bounds stuff fixed!! IAT sensor ground wire cut!!! While I was at it, I put the "tune" back to factory settings. I took the factory 2004 - 8100, tune line by line and copied it into the Tahoe tune. Now it runs like it should untuned.

Good. Now save that tune file as your base tune and keep a copy of it in a safe place. If anything goes wrong with your tuning, you can always go back to that file and start tuning again from that known good file.


The current question is? Do i start with speed density, or CALC VET?? I can go either way, just need advice

There is no right or wrong answer to that question. Personally, I like the MAF sensor... so I would do a CALC VET. If you don't like the MAF sensor and want to run speed density, then just do the VE table and disable the MAF. The decision on what to tune is entirely up to you.

[Tinbender59]

Thank you statesman for that clarification! I've been going in circles with this. I like the idea behind MAF, so yes ill keep it. CALC.VET it is.

[joecar]

You can also choose to do CALC.VET with CL/trims disabled, and use wideband only (use CALC.WO2BEN instead of CALC.SELBEN).

[Tinbender59]

Ill give that a try, i hope to ge the laptop ready tonight when i get home tonight. Making a 300 mile trip tomorrow, would be perfect to get some logging done. Gotta get some real HP. Four hoved type

[joecar]

For WB only tune, disable CL (B4205) and LTFT (B3801) and OL STFT (B4206);

and then after logging use CALC.WO2BEN to correct the MAF instead of CALC.SELBEN (and have to edit the pid CALC.VET).

[Tinbender59]

sorry for the long absence, I have been fighting a rather interesting issue, had #2 injector decide that it needed to stick open, what an ordeal?? Now I cant seem to get the Idle to drop below 830rpm. when i first start it up I can hear it adjust the idle a couple of times, then settles around 830?? I have adjusted a few things trying to find what is causing the issue. the only thing that I can come up wiit is maybe the VE table is to rich, and the ECU is adjusting to keep AFR's correct??

If someone could give this tune a look and see what I have messed up in it? I would greatly appreciate it??

[joecar]

Did you fix injector on #2...?

[joecar]

Do you have a log of it idling...?

[Tinbender59]

Do you have a log of it idling...?

Yes the injectors are fixed, and operating as they should.
No log yet, ill try to get it done tomorrow. Ill be doing some hauling, will also get some CALC.VET logging done. "I hope". Life just seems to get in the way. Lol

[Tinbender59]

I did get a good scan on the calc.vet, initially it idled better, then after an hour drive is was back up to 800+
Tonight after an hour drive home, I'll pull a 5 minute scan then post it up

[Tinbender59]

I'm not sure i did things right as my MAF correction does not look right, and I am now getting a ton of mis-fires on 4 and 7. ill include the idle log, with these files. I must have this thing really jacked up!!!

[statesman]

I'm not sure i did things right as my MAF correction does not look right

I don't see any MAF corrections at all... looks like a stock MAF curve to me.

[Tinbender59]

Due to the lack of guidance, I undid the CALC.VET changes, then ran a mis-fire run, no more mis-fires, and it takes lockup and holds it. So I am concluding that I have one of two situations. Either the tune is dang close "however doubtful" or I didn't get the CALC.VET set up right. Untill I can get some direction or pull my head out, i guess I'll just have to run what i have. AFR runs between 14.3 and 15.1 and around 12.5 during WOT.

[joecar]

I'm sorry, I've been distracted with job seeking the last few days...


Your tune is very close, so doing Calc.VET (or any other MAF and/or VE tuning procedure) should produce only minor changes to MAF and/or VE.

If you now take a Calc.VET log, let's look at it to see what it tells us

(post your calc_pids.txt file also)

[Tinbender59]

Thanks joe, i will get it done asap

[joecar]

No worries, take your time.

[Tinbender59]

Dang it, cant get the missfires under control, also keep getting a MAF performance code. Both of which keep kicking the torque converter out. I have a calc.vet scan, and a screen shot i need to post ltr. I think it is injectors "still!!" As i can fatten up the VE table and reduce the missfires???

[Tinbender59]

Okay time to theorize, I have misfires on 4 and 7 have had for the last 3 weeks 8 weeks I don't know I'd have to look at my scan log. Fattening up the VE chart seems to help if not eliminate the misfires. It only happens around 18 to 2400 RPM wide open throttle nothing no misfire detected at all hard pull I didn't see any increase in the number of hits had my son drive while I watched it so I could pay attention. I have had 2 injector plug when I first started the truck or restricted then one injector stuck open if you'll remember I just think it's time to dump the injectors and start over on that part. Although tomorrow I will switch coils and wires with two other cylinders take the ve back to where it was and see if I can get some misfires on different cylinders if it stays on 4 and 7 I'm done

[Tinbender59]

I pulled 4 plugs 2, 4, 5, and 7, they all look the same color, checked compression on said holes, 5 & 7 were 165#, 2 & 4 were 155#. Swapped coils and wires, test drive pending

[joecar]

After swapping plug wires and testing, let us know what happens.


Thinking out loud:

Firing order is: 1-8-7-2 6-5-4-3

you see misfires on #4 and #7... these two cylinders are paired (they move up/down together) and use the same sector of the CKP reluctor;

I would visually inspect the CKP relector (I know, it's hard to get an eyeball to it);

do you have access to an oscilloscope to look at CKP signal...?



Other stuff to try:

Swap inectors #4 and #7 with say #5 and #8, see if the misfirew move or stay on #4 and #7.

Can you do a leakdown test...? I would say compression test for #2 and #4 appears within range, but now I'm wondering is this 10 psi drop has a cause.

[Tinbender59]

After swapping plug wires and testing, let us know what happens.


Thinking out loud:

Firing order is: 1-8-7-2 6-5-4-3

you see misfires on #4 and #7... these two cylinders are paired (they move up/down together) and use the same sector of the CKP reluctor;

I would visually inspect the CKP relector (I know, it's hard to get an eyeball to it);

do you have access to an oscilloscope to look at CKP signal...?



Other stuff to try:

Swap inectors #4 and #7 with say #5 and #8, see if the misfirew move or stay on #4 and #7.

Can you do a leakdown test...? I would say compression test for #2 and #4 appears within range, but now I'm wondering is this 10 psi drop has a cause.

OK now we're talking the same, I did swap injectors 4/2 and 7/1 the misfires did come down a bit but stayed at 4 & 7, with 7 still the worst. As a matter of fact I do have an oscilloscope, so I'll give her a look. With the motor being a 2004 should it not be 24X??? Dumb question - could I have the injectors and or coils for 4 & 7 crossed at the ECU?? I'll check that out but I thought that the 6.0 and 8.1 had the same firing order???

[Tinbender59]

Ah dang it I just looked at the documentation I swapped 1/5 not 1/7. Grrrrr gotta fix that!

[joecar]

no worries... what is important is that you rechecked and you continue from there.

[Tinbender59]

Joecar, I have been analyzing the poop!! out of this mess, and I think that I have a solid theory, if there is such a thing?

I have had the injectors out 5 times now, the last time i was kind of half paying attention to the seating of the bottom "O" rings. Now that I reanalyze (play it back in my head) i do not remember #7 seating! Maybe I'm making things up? But I will get into it and verify that all injectors seat without a doubt.

If I'm correct it would explain everything that I've been fighting, will not idle down, bad IAC codes, bad MAF codes, and of course the missfires at 2000 to 2500.

[joecar]

Sounds plausible.

When I'm not paying attention, stuff like that churns in the back of my mind, so I have to pull it all apart and redo it.

[Tinbender59]

Sorry for the long absence, my buddy had 2 rods start knocking in his 7.4 so we pulled it and refreshed it. Now I'm back on the trail of this missfire issue. I've moved coils, wires, #4 injector, still getting missfires on 4&7. I did reset the FPR to 58#, then vacuum referenced it (runs better). But still getting the same issue, 4&7??? Tomorrow, if the weather cooperates I'll check the wiring again. This is getting border line crazy!! Any ideas at all. I don't care how crazy it sounds at this point.

[Tinbender59]

Hum just watched a video. Spark plugs and may have an issue???

[Tinbender59]

I am getting a flashing CEL light, I am 3000++ missfires on#7, about 1/4th that on #4 in 6 miles. I did hear back fires in the LH head exhaust today. ( My exhaust pipes cross sides, the way I built it) I have swapped injectors, coils, wires, plugs, reverified coil and injector to ECM wiring compression checked it (150#) . Nothing effects it?? All I can come up is intake gaskets or a blockage in the intake??? Ya got any ideas??? I'm not sure if I want to keep this motor anymore��

[Tinbender59]

I am getting a flashing CEL light, I am 3000++ missfires on#7, about 1/4th that on #4 in 6 miles. I did hear back fires in the LH head exhaust today. ( My exhaust pipes cross sides, the way I built it) I have swapped injectors, coils, wires, plugs, reverified coil and injector to ECM wiring compression checked it (150#) . Nothing effects it?? All I can come up is intake gaskets or a blockage in the intake??? Ya got any ideas??? I'm not sure if I want to keep this motor anymore��

[Tinbender59]

My Dyno guy just told me that the injector connectors are a known problem on the LS style motors???? I guess I will be changing to EV1 injectors (I have a set of 36# "real" Bosh units, not the cheap knock off's) onwards I will trod. P.S. I do have an adjustable regulator, so I can drop the pressure to 45#??? If I'm remembering right???

[statesman]

P.S. I do have an adjustable regulator, so I can drop the pressure to 45#??? If I'm remembering right???

No, don't drop the fuel pressure... it won't help with the misfires.

[statesman]

I have swapped injectors, coils, wires, plugs, reverified coil and injector to ECM wiring compression checked it (150#) . Nothing effects it??

What plugs are you using now, and what are they gapped at?

What wires are you using now, and what are their resistances?

[Tinbender59]

NGK, I've had trouble with AC center electrode vaporizing, so I don't usually run them. I'll have to look at them for the number, I Gap at 0.045,. Resistance???? Hum?? Now that's an idea!!! I'll let you know.

[joecar]

Sorry, I missed a few posts, I had a job interview.

[Tinbender59]

Cool. How did it go

[joecar]

It seemed to go well (some hard questions), we'll see in a few days.

[Tinbender59]

Well?? Joe??

Meanwhile I have been trying to get this 8.1 to straighten up, but it is resisting my efforts. I guess it is time to get technical, as in get the Oscope out and see what is up?

[joecar]

Interview went well (hard questions)... they're going to make me an offer soon :)

[joecar]

Can you capture an oscilloscope waveform of the secondary voltages (using a capacitive probe)...?

Capture good one and bad ones, to compare.

[joecar]

Also, do you have results for compression and leakdown tests...?

[Tinbender59]

Compression on 5&7 were 150psi, i am not set up to do a leakdown.

Joecar: I changed over to Bosh type 3 EV1 36# injectors, from the stock 31# injectors. What all do i need to change beside rail pressure, and injector size in the program?

[joecar]

What is your current measured rail pressure (with reference hose temporarily removed7) (I thought it was 58 psig)...?

You need to scale the new IFR values for the current rail pressure (using squareroot pressure law).

You need the to populate the othe injector tables (including B9021).

Somewhere there is a spreadsheet containing the other data for the Bosch 36 lb/hr injectors.

[Tinbender59]

I dropped rail pressure to 48, need to drop it to 45. The Bosh ar 36@45lb. If you can find the spread sheet i would appreciate it.

[Tinbender59]

P. S. I am now vacuum referenced

[Tinbender59]

Here is what i found does it look correct and complete you will have to read down a bit, couldnt upload the actual file??

https://ls1tech.com/forums/fueling-injection/1741597-specific-data-fast-36-lb-injectors-anyone.html

[statesman]

Well?? Joe??

Meanwhile I have been trying to get this 8.1 to straighten up, but it is resisting my efforts. I guess it is time to get technical, as in get the Oscope out and see what is up?

You said that you'd get back to me with the part number of your spark plugs and the resistances of the plug wires... but you never did. I told you not to drop your fuel rail pressure, but you did it anyway. I can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. :wallbash:

I think that I'll just sit back and watch joecar try to help your sorry ass. :beer:

[joecar]

I dropped rail pressure to 48, need to drop it to 45. The Bosh ar 36@45lb. If you can find the spread sheet i would appreciate it.
What was stock pressure (should be 58 psi)...?

By dropping rail pressure your dropping the injectors' maximum flowrate, and your introducing other problems with the other injector tables.

Follow what stateman said, he's disgnosing the cause of your problem, I hate to see it go to waste...!!

[Tinbender59]

Well my sorry ass installed a set of TPI injectors, i believe that they are rated at 45 psi, if my sorry ass remembers corectly, but please keep the insults comming because, well --- I'm stupid. However today I got the oscope out ( and i actually figured out how to turn it on) and found the problem. As somone had sugested earler as well it was a bad ECU. I'm not ignoring your suggestions and advice, I have to prove to myself that the money is spent wisely and not wasted. And i am sorry that i did not get back to you, but i get sidetracked way to easy. And life happenes, if i recall i had to rebuild a 454 between that discussion and today. Oh! also i have farted twice since then�� picture is the waveform from #7 coil control wire. Second is what it should look like

[Tinbender59]

Now that that is over, I went back to the 411 ECU and had 14 missfires in 6 miles. Now i start tunning it SMH

[Tinbender59]

P. S. I'll not insult anyone on this forum, because you guys are almost gods in the tuning world, and I'm lucky to have your ear

[Tinbender59]

Joecar, I could not get secondary voltage on the coils because my meter doesn't go that high so I went with what I had

[joecar]

Now that that is over, I went back to the 411 ECU and had 14 missfires in 6 miles. Now i start tunning it SMH
Do you have a log of the pid MFTOTAL...?



P. S. I'll not insult anyone on this forum, because you guys are almost gods in the tuning world, and I'm lucky to have your ear
No, we're just people, and statesman is just having a little dig at you hoping you would follow his troubleshooting to pinpoint the cause of the misfires.



Joecar, I could not get secondary voltage on the coils because my meter doesn't go that high so I went with what I had
I was hoping you had an oscilloscope (with capacitive secondary clamp), the shape of the secondary ignition waveform will give us a hint if it's electrical or fuel related.

If you have an osciiloscope, we also want to see the CKP and CMP signals (with #1 or #6 secondary as reference)

We know misfires happen on #4 and #7 which are paired cylinders (they are both at TDC at the same time), this points to the CKP reluctor.

But, follow statesman's lead, he is trying to see if he can eliminate a few things (or if they are the cause) before we get to the CKP reluctor.

[Tinbender59]

Ok will do. I may be able to make an inductive pickup for secondary. No on the pid I'll see if i can get one

[statesman]

Well my sorry ass installed a set of TPI injectors, i believe that they are rated at 45 psi, if my sorry ass remembers corectly, but please keep the insults comming because, well --- I'm stupid.

Oh, if the injectors are rated at 45psi then don't run them at 58psi or they'll explode. :laugh:

Seriously.... the injector's 'rating' is actually a fuel flow rating and they specify the fuel pressure used to obtain that rated flow. You can run a fuel pressure higher than what they use for rating the injector... it just means that the flow rate will be higher than the rated flow rate.



However today I got the oscope out ( and i actually figured out how to turn it on) and found the problem. As somone had sugested earler as well it was a bad ECU. I'm not ignoring your suggestions and advice, I have to prove to myself that the money is spent wisely and not wasted.

Testing the spark wire resistances doesn't cost a whole lot of money... but it doesn't matter now, you seem to have found the problem.

[Tinbender59]

Ah ya had call me out, lol true story on the wire's but I did honestly forget to do it. My apologies sir

[joecar]

I love oscilloscopes :cheers:

[Tinbender59]

Well I guess this is where I get to eat some crow. The ECU did not fix it!! So here's where I am at; new plugs, new wires, new coil, new cam sensor, new crank sensor, complete set of "different" injectors, swapped ECU. Performed a decarboning process (water and oil mixture) compression test, 150# on #5 & #7 didnot test compression any further.

I am now searching for the needle in the haystack.

How does the ECU determine a misfire?? Does it read the knock sensor and the firing sequence? If so it could be a flywheel bolt hitting,? ( I did not install the transmission, so I cant garantee anything). Could it be a restriction in the intake? Something on the top of the piston?

These 8100 are not cheap to work on so I really don't want to go shotgun on it

[joecar]

ECM determines misfire by watching if the crank continues to decelerate after an ignition event...
crank should momentarily accelerate, if it does not then that's counted as a misfire...
knock sensor is not involved in misfire detection.

What do misfiring cylinders show for compression and leakdown vs the good cylinders...?
Does CKP reluctor look ok...?
How good is spark on the misfiring cylinders...?
How good is spray on the misfiring cylinders...?
Are any valves not seating properly...?
Are any valve springs broken or weakened...?
Does cam have any lobes with flat spots...?
Have any lifters failed...?
Any visual signs of combustion chamber damage (from fragments of ringland or valve seat)(implies removing heads, or using borescope to view inside CC's)...?

[Tinbender59]

Thats a lot to check in sub freezing weather, lol but all good advice, but if I have to pull it out? it'll be spring and probably will go a different route then. I'm not going to keep throwing a bunch more money at this thing.

[Tinbender59]

Listened to the. Motor with a stethoscope at 2200 the valve train is just hammering away. Guess I will be pulling the covers next week.

[statesman]

Well I guess this is where I get to eat some crow. The ECU did not fix it!! So here's where I am at; new plugs, new wires, new coil, new cam sensor, new crank sensor, complete set of "different" injectors, swapped ECU.

For someone who prides himself on spending money wisely.... that sure is an impressive list of wasted money. :beer:


I am now searching for the needle in the haystack.

The 8.1 can be a finicky engine... as you're now finding out. Sometimes it can be something simple that the engine just doesn't like. Joecar has given you list of things to look at, so that should keep you busy for a while.

[Tinbender59]

That it will!!

[Tinbender59]

That it will!!

[Tinbender59]

Finally was able to pull the valve cover off of the motor or last night, didn't like what I saw. Looks like I've got a couple of collapsed lifters. So made some phone calls this morning. The worst news came from my engine builder, he says that they took a friction additive out of the oils to not cause catalytic converter issues. This has started a near epidemic camshaft failure problems. He was saying even general motors is having troubles sourcing replacement camshafts. with a big storm looming tomorrow I guess I'll put the valve cover back on and order a cam. Not what I wanted to hear, but what my instincts were telling me all along. By by $700. Lol

[ProperTuningOG]

This is hydraulic roller. A collapsed lifter would not wipe out the cam as easily and ZDDP need is totally different.

Now, it would be running horrible due to a lifter not keeping prime.

[Tinbender59]

I found that the roller lifters had rough bearings, several cam lobes were galded. And the rocker balls were worne out. Drove it today still getting a flashing CEL. Although "Torque" said no codes?? Tomorrow i will get EFILive scan tool on it and see whats up?? This is getting a bit tiresome lol
About ready to carb it, not yet!! But close !!!

[Tinbender59]

After a bit of trolling on the forum I found where somebody had opened up their sensitivity on misfires so I opened mine up 100 more points In the RPM range I'm having troubles problem went away.

[Tinbender59]

P now to sit down figure my tune out get it back to base and start over again!!!! What a learning curve.

[joecar]

That's the fun of it :)

( otherwise your Mrs would own your time )

[Tinbender59]

ROFL Probably more truth to that than we want to admit

[statesman]

After a bit of trolling on the forum I found where somebody had opened up their sensitivity on misfires so I opened mine up 100 more points In the RPM range I'm having troubles problem went away.

I'm really curious.... if you were detecting engine knock, would you desensitize your engine knock sensors to make the engine knock go away?

[Tinbender59]

I did it because I've narrowed the problem down to what i believe to be an internal issue. Requiring a full tear down. I have a lot of other places that need my attention at this moment. If it blows it blows, I'll do something different. I'm out of patience at this point. Ill spene the money either way. Ive got to get a roof on my house before i can rebuild the motor. So it is gonna have to survive lol

[Tinbender59]

This is hydraulic roller. A collapsed lifter would not wipe out the cam as easily and ZDDP need is totally different.

Now, it would be running horrible due to a lifter not keeping prime.

I am completely lost here?? I have installed a new cam, lifters, and rocker arms --- still sounds like a diesel (noisy rockers). it is caring 60+ lbs of oil pressure (according to the gauge???) HUM??? may have just answered my own question here. funny how when you put it on a medium where you can read it, it looks kinda silly?? I guess the next step is to verify oil pressure?? I wonder if there is a way to verify oil pressure to the front of the lifter valley on the 8.1L

[Tinbender59]

The craziness continues, drove the truck in a torrential downpour, rain that is, kept the engine RPM up and drove through it. Today The miss is gone and the engine is quiet no more rattle I have my theory, I'd like to hear anybody else's theories on the situation. I want to give it a couple days to make sure it's real before I start trying to tune it again

[joecar]

Check for leaks at the intake manifold, including the injector o-rings.

[Tinbender59]

Will do

[Tinbender59]

Check for leaks at the intake manifold, including the injector o-rings.

no leaks that I can find??

now that the Knocking/rattling has quit, I'm going to try to set the tune back to original settings, (turn all sensors back on, and let the ECU do it's job) sheesh!!! what a journey. you guys get upset with me? you should be here looking at this thing. I am doing a lot of diagnostics that I'm not telling about, because a lot of it is basic troubleshooting. but The crazy thing keeps sending me back over the same stuff, over and over again.

I "believe" that the current problem now, is an intermittent electrical issue. it will miss for a while then not for 30 miles or so, then miss again for a few miles then not. so I'm in the middle of that, plus life. lol

some where someone mentioned that I am missing a pid in my calcvet file, and I'm having trouble backtracking. (not surprising!)

[joecar]

No, we're not upset, we go through the same stuff ourselves.

[statesman]

I am completely lost here?? I have installed a new cam, lifters, and rocker arms --- still sounds like a diesel (noisy rockers).

Are you using the correct length pushrods?

[Tinbender59]

Are you using the correct length pushrods?

the cam, lifters, and rockers are all stock replacement Items, so i am "assuming" that stock push rods will work?? plus I don't know the stock length???

[statesman]

Well, 'assuming' that the heads are stock, then your stock pushrods should be just fine. What grade engine oil are you using?

[Tinbender59]

Im running Rotella 10-40. I hope thats spelled correctly lol

[Tinbender59]

Well, 'assuming' that the heads are stock, then your stock pushrods should be just fine. What grade engine oil are you using?

Yes stock heads

[statesman]

Im running Rotella 10-40. I hope thats spelled correctly lol

I'm not overly familiar with Rotella oils but from what I understand it's a diesel engine oil which can be used in gas engines, but it's still formulated for diesel engines. You should be using a 5W30 or a 10W30 formulated for gasoline engines. I don't think your engine noise is from using Rotella oil, but strange things happen so I wouldn't rule it out.

The engine noise is probably more related to your misfire issue.

[joecar]

Stock pushrods should still be checked for correct length (do this by measuring how much preload is present on lifter).

[Tinbender59]

I haven't had a chance to check push rods yet , life is so busy. I did try to get a Calc.vet log the other day, still getting a map full of 0.000?? here is my tune, pids and map. what is my moronic mind missing? could someone give this a look Again please?

well?? this sight has restrictions on loading a map from it's own program??? how does that work??

[statesman]

I think Calc.vet works better if you don't fail the MAF. :ermm:

[Tinbender59]

Well, that certainly explains that!! I definitely overlooked it. Thank you for taking the time to look at it. This truck is a frankinstine, and I get to questioning everything, which gets me confused. Thank you again

[Tinbender59]

I think Calc.vet works better if you don't fail the MAF. :ermm:



ok how did I accomplish that I cant find the information again, I know I've seen it?

[joecar]

Post #1 here: Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log) (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log))


Hint: look at stock 2001/2002 F-car file to see how MAF is enabled.

[Tinbender59]

Post #1 here: Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log) (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log))


Hint: look at stock 2001/2002 F-car file to see how MAF is enabled.


I'm busted!!! I guess I need to do a lot more reading, and re-read what I have read. and get all of this muddy water cleared out-a my pea brain so that MayBe I can actually get it!!

[Tinbender59]

NOW!! I'm getting good numbers, next replace a bad "new" u joint, then get the tune set for logging. hopefully finally get this finished, and quit bothering you guys. lol

I do have an off subject question, where do we, or can we adjust the fuel prime time. when you turn the key on and the pump runs to build pressure before start?

[Tinbender59]

ok I have gone line by line reading the " Calc.VET: correcting MAF and calculating VE (in single log) " then I read the summary notes. In the Summary Notes there are references to setting PE rich enough to protect the motor, (not in the CALC.VET section). If I read it "all" correctly I am tuning for VE, so if I setup the tune correctly, VE should be disabled, therefore making the "richen up VE a moot point?

Am I correct in this thought?

Also, somewhere I thought that there were additional, data parameters ( as in B0701) that should be set, does anyone know which ones??

I am coming at this trip as if I had never seen EFILive before, so that I'm not Jaded with miss-conceptions. hopefully get it right this time!!


P.S. I finally have all of the mechanical and electrical issues solved, she runs really good for not being tuned.

[Tinbender59]

After a bit of trolling on the forum I found where somebody had opened up their sensitivity on misfires so I opened mine up 100 more points In the RPM range I'm having troubles problem went away.

P.S. these are back to stock.

[joecar]

ok I have gone line by line reading the " Calc.VET: correcting MAF and calculating VE (in single log) " then I read the summary notes. In the Summary Notes there are references to setting PE rich enough to protect the motor, (not in the CALC.VET section). If I read it "all" correctly I am tuning for VE, so if I setup the tune correctly, VE should be disabled, therefore making the "richen up VE a moot point?

Am I correct in this thought?
Calc.VET tunes MAF, so it disables VE.
PE richens regardless of running from MAF or VE.



Also, somewhere I thought that there were additional, data parameters ( as in B0701) that should be set, does anyone know which ones??
The Calc.VET thread has all the info you need.
B0701 cat prot enable: leave enabled if you have cats, disabled otherwise.



I am coming at this trip as if I had never seen EFILive before, so that I'm not Jaded with miss-conceptions. hopefully get it right this time!!


P.S. I finally have all of the mechanical and electrical issues solved, she runs really good for not being tuned.
The mech issues are really important, can't tune around them. Good job :cheers:

[Tinbender59]

Cool, thanks Joe