Which WB02 should I purchase

[Black2000FRC]

I'm totally new to tuning. I have EFI Live with FSV2 that I purchased about 7 years ago and used to flash my LS1B with a mail order tune. I have built a new motor for my car that is going to be installed in the next few weeks. I have read a ton on this site, but I'm unsure about so much still it is kind of discouraging. This is the 1st of about a million questions to come. I want to get some opinions about which WB02 will work the best with my LS1B. I have read that there is a limitation to how fast I can log with the LS1B compared to newer ECM's that run on the CAN bus. I have been looking hard at the AEM 30-0300 and the Ballenger AFR500v2 with a NTK production or calibration grade sensor. Would I be able to take advantage of the AEM's speed ? I've read that the analog output on it is actually very good. Is there any advantage to the NTK sensors over the Bosch 4.9 LSU ? Thanks in advance for any response to my questions.

[joecar]

The 30-0300 on analog wiring will update very fast... and is cheaper than the AFR.

[Doc]

Just my humble opinion, I have owned and used and installed a fair amount of the common and uncommon WBO2 sensors out there. The thing about your post / question that I think stood out to me the most was the concern over the sample rate. I would not put that at the top of my list of requirements for what you are attempting to do with what you have at your experience level. Some will present very strong arguments about the accuracy / uncertainty factors between using an analog connection vs. a serial connection. Both have their merits. One size (brand of WBO2/sensor connection) does not fit everybody's requirements.

Just getting your feet wet at this point, you have a lot to consume. Reliability, ease of use and availability of the sensors would be my recommendation. The serial connection that you have on your V2 is reliable and easy to setup and use. You won't have to concern yourself with the offset voltage that an analog connection will require to achieve the full potential accuracy. The LSU4/9 sensors are fairly accurate and readily available at a reasonable cost.

That being said, I own a ECM AFM-1500 with a lab grade sensor. I also own and use the Innovate products as well. Innovate has been around for a long time and is either viewed as a Hero or a Villain. Innovate allows you to run a serial or analog connection, free air calibration and has 3 sample rates to choose from.

All sensors are fragile. None of them last forever. Properly setup- power, ground and the physical placement of the sensor in the exhaust stream is critical.

On a side note, on vehicles that are challenged by low vacuum by virtue of the setup; heads, cam, intake, a super fast sample rate can actually lead you to reading the air puffs in the combustion cycle leading you to think the vehicle is lean when it really is not and you end up with strange VE/MAF tables in your tune.

If you really want a great tuning / learning experience I would highly recommend a Moates Road Runner. I have (2) 512kb and (1) 1MB RR's. Learning to tune with a tool that allows you to change anything in real time is invaluable.

[joecar]

Doc has a good point regarding analog connection vs serial comm... they each have their merits and each require their own level of understanding when something goes wrong.


The best thing to do is to find usage comparisons of several widebands (some of the hot rod magazines have such) and read it.


I've had Innovate widebands that were good (still working) and others that never worked properly
( Innovate are cheap, and offer various capabilities that others do not, as Doc pointed out )
( ECM AFR-1500/500 are relatively expensive, are better built with metal case, come with already builtin status LED's )
( others like the AEM are in the middle, without some of the features, or with some completely different features )


With analog you need to be aware of things like voltage drop offset, noise/emi, ground loops, and other stuff (common ground vs differential).

So while serial is easier in this regard, you would still need to be able to troubleshoot loss of connectivity when it happens.


Then there are other considerations...

FSV2 samples the serial comm wideband at about 10 Hz...
this is ok for LS1B/P01 since you're logging pids at about 10 Hz (all the pids to be able to tune with);

but this is not ok for E38, E67, E92 where pids are logged at 40 to 50 Hz;
in this case you could use analog...
or you could use something like the AEM 30-0333 in CAN bus mode
( the AEM 0333 and 0334 retain the analog port, but trade serial comm mode for CAN bus mode );
( if you need dual AEM CAN bus widebands, you would need one 0333 and one 0334 ).


So the answer is never simple, and depends on your immediate/future plans.

[Black2000FRC]

Thank you Joecar and Doc for the responses to my question. I guess I should start off by saying I did make a purchase. I bought 2 of the AEM 30-0300 and a dual pod A pillar housing for them. I got both of them for about the price of one of the AFR500 units. Joecar in your 2nd response, when talking about the facts that Doc was pointing out about serial vs analog connections you spoke about voltage drop offsets and noise and Doc had also mentioned offset voltage specifically. I was under the understanding that the 30-0300 has active ground offset compensation. Doesn't that supposedly automatically constantly adjust the offset to address accuracy issues. I've read in several discussions on the gauge that the noise level using the analog connection was actually very low as well but... The one part that is confusing still about the analog vs digital is what my options trully are. If I understand it correctly the 30-0300 logs at up to 500hz analog, defaults back to 10hz and 3 decimal places with a serial connection (which I understand would match the FSV2 logging rate for the serial connection as well) and has a proprietary CAN bus connection that only allows communication between it and other AEM devices supporting the same protocol. If that is correct I believe I can use either analog or serial at my discretion. It is also my understanding that I will only be able use 1 of the sensors at a time unless somebody has figured out how to daisy chain them together. My 2000 vette has an LS1B in it so I'm not even sure how much of the speed discussion is relevant considering I'll be logging PIDs at 10hz as Joecar mentioned earlier. Doc I've got 2 questions for you, and please excuse my ignorance when discussing these subjects. When you mentioned your side note I got a little confused, so please correct my understanding of this. Say I've got this sensor that reports at 500hz. That is 500 times a second correct? Now if my LS1B logs PIDs at 10hz (or ten times a second) is the signal from WB02 averaged?, recorded at 1 out of every 50 signals received from the controller?, or.... And secondly awhile ago I was looking into the Road Runners as the real time adjustments looked like an amazing option to have. I did notice when I began looking at the forum again once completing my motor assembly, I saw that they are listed under the end of life controllers, and have read some posts where people were looking for parts for them and inquiring about purchasing one. Are they still available and still supported? Lastly I'll be starting a new tread about coming up with a base tune to get my stroked LS3 started up once its installed in the car. Would love it if you guys would respond to that one as well. Thanks again for your time guys I really do appreciate it.

[joecar]

I'm not sure how the wideband figures out what true ground is... I'll have to research it.


If the wideband ground shows a voltage difference from vehicle/battery ground, then there will be a measurable offset (which can be compensated for as long as the voltage difference is not dependent on current or temperature).


If any power/ground wires are not in close proximity to each other, they will pick up different amounts of noise, resulting in "net" noise in the wideband's power loop.

If any signal/return wires are not in close proximity to each other, same thing, net noise.
If the return path is not a separate wire but chassis metal, you will see noise.