HPtuners..... yep i said it.

[ZL1Killa]

850 for RR and 150 for a license .....now HPtuners has RTT for 250 i think it is.....
HPtuners 900 bucks maybe 1200
EFI LIVE 700+850+150 =1700bucks


whats going on here..... and HPTuners can tune more cars. I know that EFI LIVE has the diesel and the V8's mainly

but honestly to tune and make money for people that are in the market for getting a shop and tuning all kinds of cars hptuners is kickin ass now....

i'm just getting to thinking about a lot of things here..

[caver]

What are all the abreviations for us backwards africans?

[ZL1Killa]

RTT- real time tuning
RR for those that know about it is the Road Runner real time tuning that efi live has with moates i think is how you spell it

[Kris]

With fuel trims on, and bidi controls, I can on-the-fly adjustments for both air/fuel and timing with EFILive, then make the appropriate adjustments in the tune file. On the street, real time tuning is difficult to do if you're by yourself. 99% of the time I simply make a change and log it. So I personally don't have the need for the RTT and it therefore doesn't factor into my decision.

I feel both software packages are very powerful, and both have their own strengths and weaknesses.

I see EFILive offering their package as an initial investment, and then ALL updates and new features are free provided they don't need a hardware upgrade (which v2 will have, and I do not forsee another hardware change needed for a LONG time afterwards)

I see HPTuners as offering their package as an initial investment, and then any additional features (SD, RTT, etc) they make over it will cost you. If you bought 3-bar today, and tomorrow 4-bar came out... it'd cost you a credit or two ($50-100) to upgrade.

I've used LS1Edit, HPTuners, and EFILive. We all know how much of a joke LS1Edit is now, but it was the only game in town. HPTuners and EFILive are very similar, it really comes down to a personal preference on interface.

EFILive simply works the best for me.

[Tordne]

RoadRunner is 599 now as well. Price was reduced some time ago. And if you want only to do Real-Time tuning you can get away with buying EFILive Scan Tool Only for around $250 or so.

Also, it appears that the HPT RTT is quite nice. BUT:
1) The changes are stored in RAM until they are saved and uploaded to the tune. If the connection is lost/closed those changes go with it :eek:
2) The tables which can be tuned are limited. Now, there are probably a key few tables which you would want to change in real-time. But, the RoadRunner can change any table. AND, it is actually written to the actual PCM as you enter the values :master:

Just my $0.02, but it seems on the surface that the HPT thing is a revolution. But, in reality it is still languishing some significant distance behind the current capabilities offered by EFILive and Moates RoadRunner.

[ZL1Killa]

i mean I love EFI LIVE and when i say LOVE i mean it, lol. been using it for a while now and i'm quite used to it.

but why did efi live not come out with tuning for cars like the chev malibu and other cars like that similar to what hptuners did?

[dc_justin]

Also, it appears that the HPT RTT is quite nice. BUT:
1) The changes are stored in RAM until they are saved and uploaded to the tune. If the connection is lost/closed those changes go with it :eek:
2) The tables which can be tuned are limited. Now, there are probably a key few tables which you would want to change in real-time. But, the RoadRunner can change any table. AND, it is actually written to the actual PCM as you enter the values :master:


I read about this today and was actually going to make a post about it but backed out for some reason.

Knowing that the factory PCM cannot work in a true real-time tuning environment, I had to check out HPT's help files and see what was going on.

It appears that what they are doing is really just adding a level of depth to the Bi-Di control interface that we currently have with EFILive. Granted, without having a Roadrunner, it seems like it would be very handy with spark tuning on the dyno, but it still isn't on the same level as the RR and being able to modify any and all tables on the fly.

Naturally, I wouldn't be opposed to the EFILive folks coming up with a more enhanced Bi-Di controls configuration once V2 is out and they've had a chance to take a breather. :notacrook:


i mean I love EFI LIVE and when i say LOVE i mean it, lol. been using it for a while now and i'm quite used to it.

but why did efi live not come out with tuning for cars like the chev malibu and other cars like that similar to what hptuners did?

Probably working too diligently on making sure that Flashscan V2 is 100% bug free before release?

[ringram]

RR is now $599 and you can use the $249 version of efilive for scanning so for a single user that cuts the costs down a lot.
For a shop you are right, just take $250 for the RR reduction.

They have certainly come out with a lot of new stuff recently. Competition is heating up.

Aagh beaten to the keyboard by Tordne, that will teach me for not clicking "submit" to the thread while its sitting open for a while!

[ZL1Killa]

my main reason for posting is what about all the other cars?? i mean i know V8's these days and diesels are plenty and tuning them is a big business, but what about the other money on other cars for all the tuning fun people want to have with their daily driver v6's?? thats the only reason i think hptuners has a hand in this, they offer a LOT more vehicles to tune

[Kris]

but why did efi live not come out with tuning for cars like the chev malibu and other cars like that similar to what hptuners did?

Why did HPTuners not come out with tuning for the duramax?

Each company has their own ideas on which markets they wish to focus on.

I personally don't see a market for half the cars on the HPTuners supported vehicle list, I mean... who seriously is out there tuning on a Chevy Express van or Astro minivan? :lol: The market may be there, but I just don't see it.

I do however see a HUGE market for the duramax, and I don't fault EFILive not even one bit for putting a large bit of focus on them. Them diesel guys LOVE to mod their trucks and make tons of boost, ALL of them... whether they're a 16yr old in high school, or a 75 year old man... they all want bunches of black smoke billowing out the exhaust pipe and be able to make 50+ pounds of boost.

[WS6FirebirdTA00]

Stevo just wants to tune the family car lol, stick to your car before you blow your dads car up haha jk

[Blacky]

Real time tuning...
HPTuner's "real-time-tuning" is yet another half-baked attempt to implement something that falls well short of the TRUE real time tuning offered by RoadRunner. For those who don't know, EFILive implemented something similar to this about 3 years ago in EFILive V5. It enjoyed some success and some tuners were able to use it. However there were a number of fundamental problems with attempting to tune a vehicle that way. There is no way around those problems with a software only solution and so we removed that feature from EFILive. EFILive will publish a real time tuning fact sheet shortly, explaining the difference between the two systems and the inherent problems with a software only approach.

Vehicle support...
EFILive is primarily focused on supporting high performance large displacement engines.

It is EFILive's policy to focus our resources on V8s and some 6 cylinder engines. Because we stay focused on a smaller subset of engines we deliver a more useful and powerful product and much better support than if we covered all vehicles but only provided token support.

If the market wants token support for some of the smaller vehicles, then we may offer it. But as has already been said the market for such a product is small compared to the V8 performance market (gas and diesel).

Regards
Paul

[skippy]

I have buddies with both...
one has EFI and moates...other has HPT...
I have seen both in action now...
while I like the idea of the moates thing...its a nightmare to take in and out of a vette..LOL
and not everybody wants to spend that amout of $$ for the thing...
the HPT thing on the other hand is only the usual tables that everybody tunes...and maybe we dont need every table to be on the fly anyways...
hell.. I have some basic changes I make when tuning a car that are standards for many situations....so I dont need real time on all tables....
somebody said the pcm forgets???...it only forgets if you turn the car off..as long as it stays running you can disconnect the cable and its still on the last tables you entered in the Real time tables....
my buddies HPT laptop crashed and he just rebooted his laptop..fired it back up and tables with last values were still there..

I have my EFI...I dont need RTT...

[GMPX]

Unfortunately the internet gives people the wrong perception on things.
Just look at the tuning markets out there for FORD, Dodge and GM.
Is there a bunch of tuners for a FORD Focus, maybe a Taurus, of course not, Mustang and Powerstroke is where it is at.
In my opinion (and maybe I am wrong) GM is the same, How many of the shops out there dealing with Corvettes, GTO's, Duramax's etc really want to try to rip another 6Hp from some guys sisters Cavalier, obviously HPT feel there is enough so they have done them.
The S/C 3800 market is pretty competitive as it is with software and mail order tuners, so for us, why bother.

Cheers,
Ross

[emarkay]

but why did efi live not come out with tuning for cars like the chev malibu and other cars like that similar to what hptuners did?

You mean that wrong wheel drive Malibu Maxx POS?
Um, who cares?

Now years ago I was pressing the Dodge/Chrysler and Ford interface development to EFIlive, presuming that maybe those OEM's would beat GM at it's own game. Regardless of who makes the best RWD V8 now, there was, and is (evedently) still no interest in anything other than Holden and GM.


IMHO I think EFILive is where they want to be, and also IMHO, I think the "oil burners" have been a nice suprise for them.

[joecar]

What really stinks is the competition's attitude, regardless of their product... (am I allowed to say it like that...?)

[Blacky]

I think the "oil burners" have been a nice suprise for them.

No suprise really, we went into the diesel market with our eyes wide open, thanks to excellent market research. It was purely a business decision but the decision was driven by the fact that the V2 hardware had been delayed.

The real suprise was the amount of performance that can be had from one of those bad boys. :master:

Regards
Paul

[Trippin]

Paul,

You guys are Gods in the diesel market. :master:

In fact just the other day I embarrased yet another F body owner on the street with my little tiny truck.

I don't have any skid pad numbers to share, but I can run low 12's on Nitrous. I can load up my wife, one teenage and one 8 year old daughter comfortably with room to spare. Fill the back with gear and head out for a very long drive to go camping or water skiing, while towing anything I want. In the winter I take it into the mountains to go snowskiing. A couple of feet of snow on the ground doesn't bother me in the least.

Yes, I still enjoy the occasional drive in an F body or a Vette, but the truck is truly a dual purpose vehicle for many, that fills the need for performance as well as a family vehicle.

You can't please all of the people all of the time. Keep up the good work guys! Your doing great!
:cheers:

[ZL1Killa]

efi live ain't going no where guys don't worry, i'm stickin.
now just to get these damn motron injectors tuned in and the VE re-done.
having some weird issues though. here is the link : http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535592&page=2

going to unplug MAF tomorrow and try and see whats going on

[ZL1Killa]

You mean that wrong wheel drive Malibu Maxx POS?
Um, who cares?

not the malibu maxx...i hate those. the malibu LS 3.5L v6... its got some go in it for what it is

[TAQuickness]

efi live ain't going no where guys don't worry, i'm stickin.
now just to get these damn motron injectors tuned in and the VE re-done.
having some weird issues though. here is the link : http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535592&page=2

going to unplug MAF tomorrow and try and see whats going on


Glad to hear it. Anyone serious about tuning LSx engines will find EFILive superior in every aspect.

[ringram]

For us newbie's who never saw the realtime in v5, can we still DL this version to have a look/play? Will it work with v1.2 of the cable?
.. Will I bust my 7.3 install?

[Blacky]

For us newbie's who never saw the realtime in v5, can we still DL this version to have a look/play? Will it work with v1.2 of the cable?
.. Will I bust my 7.3 install?
V5 was developed before FlashScan so it only works with AutoTap's AT1 (GM) or AT123 (GM,Ford,Chrysler) interface cables. If you have one of those cables and it is licensed for use with EFILive V5/V6 or V7, then you can download and install V5 from here:
http://68.178.219.18/software/EFILiveV5SetupFull.exe

It will not break anything in V6 or V7, they are all separate applications.

Note: The way EFILive V5 did pseudo/simulated tuning is different from how HPT do it. HPT have improved over what V5 did years ago and have managed to simulate their way around some of the problems that V5 had.

Regards
Paul

[ringram]

Thanks Paul.

[Alvin]

I'm pretty shocked at the response HPtuners has gotten over the RTT.. Anyone with any common sense can see that its just a fancy set of bi-directional controls.

Roadrunner is absoulutely real time tuning.. The other should be called real time hacking.

One thing I wish the moates guys would do is over the roadrunner as an external box with a weather pack connector to the PCM that way tune shops could save on hardware cost when they wanted to tune diesel, 98's etc.

I hate to say it but EFIlive really needs to jump on the ball and release the LS2/7 support asap to remain in the publics eye for a tuning solution. I respect the decisions to hold back on its release but on the other hand HPtuners is dominating the field as far as vehicle support. As someone who owns 3 LS1 tuning solutions including hptuners and EFIlive I can honestly say that EFIlive should be the ones dominiating the field. The software is much more powerful than Hptuners.

[dc_justin]

I'm pretty shocked at the response HPtuners has gotten over the RTT.. Anyone with any common sense can see that its just a fancy set of bi-directional controls.


I'm not shocked at the response at all... :wink:

[mmorgan24]

... what about LS2/7 support release dates? I've got two LS2 trailblazer customers and an 05 GTO customer waiting ... on me ... and I am waiting on EFILive. Dates?

[Alvin]

You might just have to buy another software to get you buy.> I really didn't like doing it.. IMHO EFIlive has the most powerful scanning and tuning tool out there.. Its a shame I had to resort to the other guys to get the LS2's done around here.

[mmorgan24]

I agree - I purchased EFIlive as they stated they were working it on and I knew I would need to get LS2 support within 6 months of my purchase. Time's about up and I don't really want to learn another software product nor get involved in lic/cost issues. I can say I am somewhat disappointed - the US LS2 cars have been out for what 2 years now? I just want a reasonable date from corporate.

[Alvin]

I know it would be worth it if you wait but some of us don't have any alternatives.. The business is very competitive.. especially with as cheap as its gotten for people to get into it. The last thing you want to do is let someone else have an edge over you.

When I started tuning professionally over 5 years ago most of everything was expensive, or you had to piece it together. Now you can go to one place and get everything you need including a support forum. That type of thing didn't exsist when I got started.

Actually if you think about it... LS1 tuning didn't start to get going until 2002ish maybe later..

[Trippin]

I'm sure if they had a reasonable date they would provide it. But what good does forcing them into providing a date do? You will just be even more upset when the new date comes and goes. If they had a date to provide they would have already given it.

My advice is to seek alternative software and tune the vehicles that you have waiting. Make the money while you can. Then when the LS-2 stuff is released, you can sell the other and more than likely still be money ahead all things considered.

Then again these could just be the ramblings of someone who has inhaled way to much Duramax smoke.................... :D

[ScarabEpic22]

Im pretty new to the tuning market, but I have to say that IMO EFILive has better LL8 support than HPTuners. Both are good progs, but the EFILive software seems more powerful. It look a little more difficult to learn than HPTuners, but now after playing with settings I have a pretty mild tune that I can launch hard off the line and shift pretty quickly. I think I need to tune to run higher octane as the LL8s seem to like 89 or 91+ with the right. And, for a 6 cyl putting out more than 1hp per cubic in, its pretty good for an American muscle. 270hp for 02, more for later years out of 256ci displacement.

[dfe1]

I've been tuning for a long time and have used just about every type of software available, including LS1Edit and HPTuners. Without question, EFILive is the best. One of the reasons is that Paul and Ross take the time to do it right. I've got a bunch of people nagging me for LS2 tuning, but we're not talking life-threatening consequences if it doesn't get done right now. I'd rather wait for EFILive than get something else, work through all the inevitable issues, then have to go back and clean things up when EFILive comes out. I did that once with LS1 tuning because FlashScan hadn't been released yet. I know some customers are impatient, but personally, I'll wait for EFILive so I can do it right the first time.