getting pretty frustrated again

[BACKinBLACK]

2000 Camaro SS M6
F14 112, Fast 90/NW90, mac mids, ory, supporting other mods, etc etc

Well guys i finally got my wideband installed (LC1)... YAYA so i thought....

Well whenever i first installed my wideband it started throwing number 8 Error code at me (bad sensor). So i didnt even put the sensor in the bung. Well i got bored so last week i went ahead and put it in and started the car even through it was throwing a code. The code stopped flashing and then it started reading an AFR :bash: Well it was reading that i was running at around 8:1 AFR. That sure as hell is rich.

I was excited because it appeared to be working so i thought wow i can finally autoVE my car and make it driveable. YAY. Well i throw the AUTOVE tune into the car and the thing wont hardly run at all!! It wont idle pretty much at all and i tried to drive it and made it about a mile and had to put the regular tune back into it to make it home.

I noticed that as soon as i put that tune into the car that my car appeared to be running at 10.30:1 AFR ALLL THE TIME. it did not move a fraction of decimal of a atom. IT WAS PEGGED. That pissed me off. Well also whenever i was driving with the AUTOve tune in it and scanning and logging ONLY the PIDS specified in the auto ve tutorial , that scanner wouldnt even read RPM or VSS :mad: . yes yes yes. I was really happy. But then what got to me even more is that whenever i was pulled over to put the old tune in it, the scanning tool "lost" the connection. It couldnt connect at all. what i ended up having to do was change my pid selection to my default... then it would connect. Wierd huh? I even tried disconnecting it, shutting down the program, reopening it, all kinds of stuff. but so long as i had the AUTOVE pid selection selected it wouldnt work. :mad:

Well this made me start wondering if the wideband was bad or if my EFIlive was just all jacked up.

I went back today and did the exact same thing bc i remember that i had forgotten to unplug my MAF when i put the autove tune in it (will that affect it). So i went today and made sure to unplug the maf and it did the EXACT same thing, wouldnt run, wouldnt read rpm, and eventually wouldnt connect to the car until i changed my pid selction.

Sorry if all this seems confusing to you but im mad, frustrated and sad b/c i want to tune my car and cant.

dean from dynotunenitrous thinks that i got one of the bad lc1 units, imma send it to him and hopfully get a new one, but that still dont explain the durn efilive issue.

Any advice, thoughts, ways to destroy my car? anything at all?

Thanks
Trevor

[ringram]

Sounds like your WB wiring might be off a little, do a search here, there are a few pics and lots of info.

Perhaps leave that unplugged and try just the efilive scanner. Check you are running the latest version too.

Definately unplug the maf and follow the autotune ve tutorial closely if you want to go back down that path.

The best idea is to just run the LC1 logging software with pcm in closed loop with stock OS and make sure it logs 14.7, do some WOT action and see what it reads, should of course be around 12:1 or so. Once you get to there with the LC1 then connect it back into the flashscan device. It took me a few days to get the wiring right, lots of grounds and stuff to mess with. Mind you I replaced a NB and wired it to the PCM too.

[BACKinBLACK]

I followed the LC1 installation tutorial that is on EFLives website. Ive doublechecked all of my wiring and what not, havent found anything thus far.
I have driven and logged with and without the wideband hooked up and it does fine even with it hooked up until i change my pid selection to the pids stated in the tutorial. That is when the scanner goes haywire. My default pid i believe has everything used the in the autove selection and a lot more and it doesnt have anyproblems at all until i try to just log those pids stated in the tutorial and then it has problems.

When i drive the car in closed loop and log, the Lc1 says im running anywhere from 7-10.3 AFR but it will never go above 10.3. Like i said when ever i put in the AUTOVE tune it pegs out at 10.3 and doesnt budge at all when im driving no matter what i try to do.

im not running the latest version of efilive, i am planning dl the new one in a minute.

I cant connect my LC1 to my laptop yet b/c i havent been able to find a usb to serial adaptor, so as of now im kinda screwed.

[TAQuickness]

I cant connect my LC1 to my laptop yet b/c i havent been able to find a usb to serial adaptor, so as of now im kinda screwed.


that's kind of important. Try www.outpost.com, or ebay for that matter. I wouldn't spend too much effort trouble shooting the WB until you have the means to hook up and calibrate it.

Put the tune back to how it was before you started and just work with the scan tool for now. Try various combo's of PID's and see if you can duplicate the problem. Let us know if changing your PID selection is truely causing your problem.

[joecar]

Trevor,

Make sure the scan tool displays your correct VIN/OS/Trans. at the bottom of the window; if it doesn't, then go File->Enter Vin and enter those.

[Happy Jim]

Trevor,

I'm a couple of weeks ahead of you in the "new to this lark" stakes and had similar ish problems. Most were cured by putting things down, picking up a beer and reading the instructions for the 14th time (it's me, I'm slow!).

My first bash out ended with a hugely rich mixture and limping home, turns out I had screwed up the wiring for the NB output of the LC1 and wasn't giving the PCM any input (hence it thought it was lean, added fuel, lean, added fuel, continue until fuel washing engine clean :mad: ), easily solved by dumping the PCM into Open Loop mode. Next was same as the first, this time with the wide band output, I was merrily logging the floating output thinking life was peachy :Eyecrazy: solved by forcing the LC1 WB output to a flat voltage output and playing with the wiring until the scan tool registered the correct reading (verify by changing the flat output to a different voltage to confirm scanning the correct output), so I'm now getting a real reading from the LC1 and have done about 10 logs for Auto VE - getting there now:cheers:

Have to say that it's uphill for a while, but I'm starting to understand what I am supposed to be achieving (hence it is starting to make more sense). I'm starting to explore some of the other features - very very cool software :master:

Cheers

Jim

[joecar]

Trevor,

How is your LC-1 connected...?

[joecar]

Trevor,

Happy Jim has a good point, you need to be able to program in some flat voltages (say 3.77V and 1.77V) and measure these on the LC-1's analog outputs (yellow and brown)...

only then can you be confident that your LC-1 is working right.

Note: do not let the yellow or brown short to any other wires or to ground (otherwise the LC-1 will die).

[Black02SS]

Note: do not let the yellow or brown short to any other wires or to ground (otherwise the LC-1 will die).
Maybe this needs to be sticky'd somewhere or added to the tutorial?

[BACKinBLACK]

hmm well let me look...

yellow.... pin E
green & white .... PIN D
Red to a switched 12v (fuse panel)
Blue to a ground
Black... run to led and push momentary switch
brown... not used


the yellow , green and white wires are hooked up directly to the orange connector that connects to the black box.
I have the sensor in the bung where the rear 02's should be.

how do you force the lc1 to put out a certain voltage?

[BACKinBLACK]

by the way thanks for all the help...

also is it normal for the sensor to put out an error 8 blink indication if the sensor is reading really rich.

This is what happens, i dont start my car but maybe 3 times a week so the exhaust is pretty cleared out, well if i havent started in a while and i just turn the car on, not start it but turn it on then the blink will indicate and error 8. When i start the car though the light stays on constant (means its working correctly)... is it supposed to throw an error code when it reads that lean?

i will be on vacation as of sat. and wont return til the 17th so that will give me some time to relax and calm my nerves. Hopefully ill have some time to play with it friday before we leave though.

thanks again guys

[Doc]

IOGEAR gu232 USB to Serial Converter, availible at Walmart worked for me. I would start with your original tune that worked better, get the LC-1 to read out correctly with the logworks software (without efi live). Note, realize that the analog and system grounds, green and white wires (as set in the tutorial) are grounded via the vpw connector via the flashscan. The blue, heater ground has to be seperate from them. Sounds like you are almost there man, hang in there. Using the LM programmer software you need to program the cal factors as per the tutorial. Without doing this step the default factors that come from innovate will probably give you the erroneous readings you are getting. Once you have entered the factors in the tutorial and can get the lc-1 to get more reasonable readings with the LogWorks program move on to the EFI Live scanner software. In the "Data" tab look for the ext analog voltage pid. With the LM Programmer program command/output the lc-1 to output in sucessive logs 0v, .5v, 2.5v and 5.0v Using the scan tool Data page check those values and ensure that the readings are fairly close to what is being commanded. Large differences are ground offsets, check wiring, I know, not again... Sounds like you just need to put in the right cal factors, preform a heater cal(turn on without sensor connected to controller) and then a free air cal and you should be on your way. The intial autove tutorial has you richen up your tables for safety purposes but probably not as much as you are describing. Relax, have a nice weekend. Don't rush.

[BACKinBLACK]

thanks doc, my grounds are wired as you describe. Since i dont have the converter yet i just took Deans word that the LC1 came precal'd for efilive and hptuners. dunno. I will have to go see if they have the converter i need tonight.

I have a question, what causes LTFT's? I mean i know why they are there but does the PCM use the 02 sensors to add fuel or does it base the ltft's off of the MAF? im pretty sure that i know that ltft's are how much fuel is added to the VE table correct? so does the maf make them happen or 02's?

The reason i ask is that before i had my wideband i kept adding more fuel to the VE table and it never was able to catch up , not matter how much i added it kept adding 13+ in ltfts, even to the point to where it wouldnt hardly run, but it kept adding it.

[Doc]

From Pappy Helms: Long Term Fuel Trims, LTFTs represent a long-term correction of fuel delivery. A value of 0% indicates that fuel delivery requires no compensation in order to maintain the commanded AFR. A negative LTFT indicates the Fuel System is rich and the PCM is reducing the fuel delivery (decreased injector pulse width). A positive LTFT indicates the Fuel System is lean and the PCM is adding fuel (increasing Inj PW).
The key to your question is the 02s and the MAF are part of the Fuel System. The O2s are merely reporting the end result of what the Fuel System is trying to command. The MAF, Mass Air Flow is reporting the grams of air per second entering the engine. Remember the fire triangle...From Metallica "Gimme Fuel, Gimme Fire, Gimme that which I desire (air)..."When you change the airlid, Bellows, increase Throttle Body size, Heads, cam, headers,etc. you are physically changing the way the motor breathes in and out and the Fuel System's sensors like the MAF's original factory calibrations are no longer valid. The PCM can put up with alot of shinanagins (+/-25%) before a lean or rich code will set, your vehicles performance will undoutably be less than optimal long before that threshold, code. By performing the AutoVe procedure you essentially turn off all the Fuel Systems modifiers, and LTFTs (don't forget to zero LTFTs) and begin with rescaling the VE table(s). The VE tables are essentially predictions. With new phsyical mods that change the way the car breathes in and out-you need to change these base "predictions." Getting the VE table(s) to ~ +/-1 to 2% is generally accepted as good to go. Once you have the VE in line you can if you like bring the MAF back online and rescale it-some prefer to remain in Speed Density. There are many, many threads that go into far greater detail than this quick explanation. I tried to reread this before posting...if any senior members catch any misstatements please fire away, I learn something everyday from this forum.

[BACKinBLACK]

cool.... I got some good news finally!!!!!!!!!1 thank god

anyways, i finally found a converter so i got to checkout the LC1 situation tonight. The LC1 was not preprogrammed correctly and was way off. I changed to the needed values and that fixed that problem. I did a little auto VE'ing and the thing is working and running a lot better.

My next question is this. I have the personal addition of EFILIVE, all the latest software downloads and everything, so when i get done autoVE'ing but i want to Leave the Car mafless but in closed loop (semi, i believe) Do i follow the last section in the AutoVe tutorial , the "return to closed loop speed density"??
It says "do not perform this section if you are running an EFilive custom operating system, V3 (2/3 bar support) or later"

and then it lists a whole bunch of steps.

I am not tunnin a C.O.S. but i do have V3 i believe, so do i follow this section or not?

I guess that question may seem dumb to you, it does to me too. Ive come up with different conclusions each time i think about it so i will find out from the experts.
Thanks
Trevor

[Tordne]

cool.... I got some good news finally!!!!!!!!!1 thank god

anyways, i finally found a converter so i got to checkout the LC1 situation tonight. The LC1 was not preprogrammed correctly and was way off. I changed to the needed values and that fixed that problem. I did a little auto VE'ing and the thing is working and running a lot better.

My next question is this. I have the personal addition of EFILIVE, all the latest software downloads and everything, so when i get done autoVE'ing but i want to Leave the Car mafless but in closed loop (semi, i believe) Do i follow the last section in the AutoVe tutorial , the "return to closed loop speed density"??
It says "do not perform this section if you are running an EFilive custom operating system, V3 (2/3 bar support) or later"

and then it lists a whole bunch of steps.

I am not tunnin a C.O.S. but i do have V3 i believe, so do i follow this section or not?

I guess that question may seem dumb to you, it does to me too. Ive come up with different conclusions each time i think about it so i will find out from the experts.
Thanks
Trevor

If you are not running a EFILive Custom OS (which would require Commercial or Workshop editions) then I guess you can probably run through that section no worries.

You will be returning to Closed Loop, only COS3 has the Semi-Open Loop. Basically what you will be doing is turning on the fuel trimming and learning again.

You also don;t "need" to return to Closed Loop... I have been running MAFless (Speed Density) for about a year and a half now, but always in Open Loop.

Cheers,