Where to install LC-1?

[Garry]

OK, borrowed me a box of tread cutters, and will probably take on the adventure of installing the LC-1 this weekend ... question is - where to install all the bits and pieces? After all, it's a bit more hardware than the regular O2 sensor ... I read the file in the download area, which covers the electrical issues, but not the placement (which obviously depends on the car)

OK, so the sensor goes into the stock bung, that's one piece I don't have to worry about. Now the big controller piece - from the confined space under the car, I'm not really sure where to put that. I figure it might be a bit awkward to really get it securely attached to something ... !?

Next problem - the cable coming from the controller needs to be split up - one analog output has to end up with the FlashScan box (along with most of the other cables), the other ought to be hooked back up to the NB input underneath - did you guys just extend the cable? I don't think ripping open the outside isolation of the cable close to the controller would be a good idea ... I'd prefer to keep out any water ;)

And yet again another question - where did you route the switched +12V from? I was thinking about getting it from the NB plug, is that OK?

Anything else I'm missing?

[ringram]

You can wrap the LC-1 stuff around your trans under the console and drop the o2 WB sensor down beside the rubber boot over the trans to the bung. Use the stock connector and extend it up into the console so you can wire in power, ground, signal and signal ground for NB sim, plus the WB output and signal ground to the flashscan device. If you do a search you should find some pictures and diagrams for wiring.

[joecar]

Mine lays on partly the K-member to the RHS of the engine, and partly ziptied to the starter (to one of the long rods that hold the starter togther); sensor cable follows auto trans cooler lines back to bung in LT collector.

Here's how I split my wires up (if you haven't seen this yet)...
showpost.php?p=20320&postcount=67 (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=20320&postcount=67)

[Garry]

d@mn, my luck ... the O2 has a 17x1.5mm tread, and all I had was 16 and 18 ... and no place had any 17 to buy ... might end up welding the stock bung close and putting the one that came with the O2 on top of the exhaust pipe ... just dread pulling out the piece of the exhaust ... anyway, the passenger side bung is almost on the bottom of the pipe, and the docs from the LC1 say the sensor should be installed between 10 and 2 o'clock of the pipe ... !?

[Garry]

OK, finally got it in today ... due to the length of the cable from the sensor to the controller, I ended up putting the LC-1 up on the side of the transmission, had two holes there that I could use with zipties to fasten it ... (hope it can take the transmission heat?!)

The WB-Output to EFILive looks fine as far as I can tell, but the NB-Sim output sticks at the max-value configured in the LC-1 (like, 4.42 volts or so) --- did I miss some configuration there?

Probably due to the wrong NB out, the calculated WB AFR runs in the 15-16 area ...

I know I could just turn the NB off, but while I'm at it, I would much rather find what's causing the problem, before gets to be a real problem ...

Any idea?

[joecar]

The NB output should be programed something like this:

AFR 14.30 --> 1.000 V
AFR 15.00 --> 0.050 V

i.e. a steep downstep centred on 14.7.

NB output:
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/489/lc1nboutputtt6.png


WB output for comparison:
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8880/lc1wboutputbq3.png

[SS-1500]

OK, so the sensor goes into the stock bung, that's one piece I don't have to worry about.


I don't have rear O2 bungs, should I put the bung in the collector or the Off Road Pipe ? Suggestions?

[ringram]

Offroad pipe is fine, they usually say closer to the exhaust ports is best as the sensors like being hot. So in fact your collector is even better :)

[SS-1500]

Thanks !

[Garry]

Hm ... looks pretty much like what I have ... guess I'll check it out again today ...

Btw, I used the cabling instructions from joe's post (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=20320&postcount=67), and do not have the NBO2 ground and the WBO2 ground connected - could that be causing a problem?

[ringram]

Maybe, you need to connect all wires either to ground or signal ground depending on what they are.
I had my NB Signal and signal grounds around the wrong way initially causing my problem.

[Garry]

I think I already double-checked that I didn't reverse ground and signal on the NB output ... I guess I could link the signal grounds (LC-1 green and white) - recon I don't want to link the heater ground to that, though ... still wonder why I keep reading the .447-.453V on the NB input - even if the reference voltage were off, I should get more variation ... wonder what I'd read if the ground line was disconnected ... I might try and measure to see whether I have a good connection to begin with ...

[Garry]

OK ... just came back from some tests ...

- the line from LC1 to the PCM was fine, both leads connected, polarity OK
- hooked up LC1 green and white to each other
- testrun ... ;)

Well, with both data grounds connected, the data looks A LOT better ... noticed just from starting the car that the motor was running a lot smoother ... checking the logged data just now confirmed it ...

Can someone take a look - I have not yet (again) checked the NB output parameters of the LC1, will do in a minute - at least now, both banks seem to follow the same trend, I recon the higher precision of the WB might cause the deviation from the regular NBO2 ... I figure the variations in the WBO2 AFR is where I go ahead to actually do the tuning now ;)

Edit: the NB-output was configured exactly like that, the WB was slightly differend (used the values from the EFILive HowTo LC1 Install) ...

[joecar]

Do you have the following "ground/return/low" connections:

WB: either green or white going to FlashScan orange connector pin D...?

NB: either green or white going to NBO2 pin A...?

these are not really "grounds", but rather they are "returns"
(technically, they are the 2nd half of a "differential pair").

[joecar]

HO2S21 (bank 2 sensor 1, this is where you have the LC-1, right...?) seems to be following the trend, but you still have a difference in LTFT's of about 5%; did you have this difference before installing the LC-1 (i.e. with your actual NBO2 sensor)...?

You running quite lean, you should perhaps add 20% or 25% to your VE table.

[Garry]

WB white going to EFI Pin D, NB green going to PCM A, and (now) both connected to each other ...

Yes S21 ...

Before I replaced the NB with the WB, bank2 was all over the place ... (check the file I attached on the other thread, "which PIDs to scan" ...) Will see what the LTFTs do once I actually get to drive the car a bit ... on the way back to the garage, I scanned some more ... first didn't have the WB connected to the EFILive, NB output stayed around .1V ... !? Connected it and ran some more, after a couple of seconds it finally read ... could it be the NB output only works correct when there is some kind of load on the second output?

[Garry]

well, with the WB hopefully working fine now, I recon I'm ready to get to work - what's next, just take the AutoVE tutorial und follow it?

[ringram]

Yep, pretty much. Go open loop, disable trims and maf etc as per autove.
Then have lots of fun tuning your ve.

[joecar]

Yes, let us know how you go.

[Garry]

I'll try to get around to it this weekend ...

[Garry]

Just prepared the tune file, what's the best way to get a good set of data? Just gradually increase the throttle, using a lower gear on the highway? How high should I go on the RPM? How many % throttle max?

[BenKey]

Since you guys are on the subject of doing the AutoVE, I just done quite a bit of work on my truck and am now preparing to do this. I have everything setup, but am at a standstill at step #16 (disconnecting the MAF, but still keeping the IAT signal to the PCM) because I have the 5-pin MAF. How do you go about doing this, or do you just disable the MAF completely and leave in? I have read that suggestion a number of places, but wasn't too sure of it since it is not mentioned in the tutorial. I have been reading/searching now for going on 2hrs and just can't seem to find the right piece of information.

Any help would be appreciated.

[joecar]

You could try leaving the MAF physically plugged in as long as the PCM throws any of the following DTC's: P0101, P0102, P0103;

any of those DTC's confirms SD mode (not OLSD, but SD; to confirm OL check that your LTFT's are always zero, but that is not related to what is being asked).

[joecar]

To get a good set of data, just drive around as you would normally, being aggressive every so often (lack of traffic helps)...

Try to get:
low gear WOT
low gear steady PT range (low-mid-high MAP high RPM)
high gear steady PT range (low-mid-high MAP low RPM)

Helps if your wife eyeballs the BEN map on the laptop in realtime so she can tell you which cells you're missing.

[BenKey]

You could try leaving the MAF physically plugged in as long as the PCM throws any of the following DTC's: P0101, P0102, P0103;

any of those DTC's confirms SD mode (not OLSD, but SD; to confirm OL check that your LTFT's are always zero, but that is not related to what is being asked).
I thought in the setup you turn those codes off?

[joecar]

I thought in the setup you turn those codes off?The setup procedure turns off the MIL for those codes, but it leaves the reporting of them enabled;

the PCM must see one of those DTC's being reported in order to failback to SD mode.

[BenKey]

Okay, I'll try that. Thanks.

[Garry]

One thing I noticed while preparing the files ... on the tutorial, it says to use the backup VE table for 2000 models instead of the main VE table. Now, this one has a lower resolution and less range than the main VE table (15-105, 5 increment vs. 20-100, 10 increment) - what's the background on this?

[Garry]

OK, here's my result from the AutoVE-run ... took a nice long spin, was able to hit most of the cells on the BEN-map (based on the Backup VE) up to 6000rpm ... the NB O2 seem to be partly a bit off, but most of the KR is gone with the 15% increase on the base VE values ... anyway, most of the BEN cells are in the 0.85 area - which seems to mean that the correction of the VE table would then remove the 15% increase ...

Any comments on this data??

[ViolatorTA]

Seems like you used extra fueling to eliminate KR with the 15% increase on the VE table. Might want to decrease timing in the areas where you got KR and continue dialing in the VE table correctly.

Just a quick thought although I'm new to this right now and in the process of hooking my LC-1 up today preparing to really drive some here nuts with ?'s.

Then again, I usually learn quick. :cheers:

[ringram]

Yeah I recon 10% might be nicer. But 15% is for safety. You will take most of what you put in out except at low load where more is needed and higher up where it needs leaning out.

Looks about right.

Compare your timing with say an 02 camaro see if there is any timing difference in high octane.

[joecar]

OK, here's my result from the AutoVE-run ... took a nice long spin, was able to hit most of the cells on the BEN-map (based on the Backup VE) up to 6000rpm ... the NB O2 seem to be partly a bit off, but most of the KR is gone with the 15% increase on the base VE values ... anyway, most of the BEN cells are in the 0.85 area - which seems to mean that the correction of the VE table would then remove the 15% increase ...

Any comments on this data??Garry,

This means you can richen your PE vs RPM and/or enable PE at a lower RPM; you can enable PE concurrently with AutoVE tuning in your case (you still want to get BEN's to 1.00 +/-0.02 or better).

It works easier if you post screenshots of your BEN map and chart log
(I couldn't find the right WB AFR pid so I couldn't see you BEN's).

[Garry]

Here's the BEN map ... I did the run with the backup columns, so after filtering out and removing the cells with less than 15 values, this is what I got on the more detailed MainVE overview ...

I modified based on the BEN, then smoothed out the untouched cells ... headin' out for another short testrun .. see how she feels ...

[Garry]

Looks like I'm getting there ... after the first modified tune, most of the BEN cells ended up pretty close to 1.0 ... after I filled most the cells, I did another reflash and logged the rest of the way home ... couple of low MAP values resulted in some <1.0 values, which I just reprogrammed again ...

Still have some occasional KR, though it seems to have reduced some ... any idea, or is this more or less "normal"?

[joecar]

Those BEN's are looking good.
Post a pic of these tables: B3616, B3618.

[Garry]

The motor seems to be running pretty nicely, too ... haven't had any of the hesitation in the 2500-2900 area anymore, either...

3618 is 1.0 all the way through, 3616 is:

LABELS Normal PE Mode Enable (TPS %)
RPM Value
0 64.003906
400 64.003906
800 64.003906
1200 64.003906
1600 64.003906
2000 64.003906
2400 64.003906
2800 64.003906
3200 55.000000
3600 45.000000
4000 35.996094
4400 25.996094
4800 25.996094
5200 25.996094
5600 25.996094
6000 25.996094
6400 25.996094
6800 25.996094
7200 25.996094

[joecar]

... 3618 is 1.0 all the way through...

Ok, if you have your VE table dialed in, you can now run PE;

I'm told you want to run rich at max TQ and to lean out slightly as you approach max HP or max RPM.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/4469/pe2rs.png


http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3072/b3616xl5.png

[Garry]

OK, so what I am doing here (trying to understand it):

- if the throttle position exceeds the 50% mark up to 3600rpm or 34% beyond 4000rpm, the fuel amount is increased according to PE curve from B3618

So, in normal driving, the AFR should stick around the desired 14.7 as adjusted through the AutoVE procedure, but when I want some additional power, the engine gets more fuel (at which point the AFR should richen)

Am I about right there?

Oh, and I guess it's also time to do the steps with the "returning to closed loop", right?

[joecar]

OK, so what I am doing here (trying to understand it):

- if the throttle position exceeds the 50% mark up to 3600rpm or 34% beyond 4000rpm, the fuel amount is increased according to PE curve from B3618Correct, but the PCM takes whichever is the richer of the PE table B3618 and the OLFA table B3605.


So, in normal driving, the AFR should stick around the desired 14.7 as adjusted through the AutoVE procedure, but when I want some additional power, the engine gets more fuel (at which point the AFR should richen)

Am I about right there?Almost... in normal driving in OL the PCM is using the EQ from the OLFA table (which is 1.00 in most of this area; EQ 1.00 is AFR 14.63); and when TPS hits or exceeds the PE enable curve B3616, the PCM uses the richer of PE B3618 or OLFA B3605; see pic: OLFA normal driving is flat EQ 1.0, OLFA high MAP region is red circles, PE is green circles; the second red circle is because the OLFA is richer at that MAP than the PE is at that RPM (OLFA was 1.130, PE was 1.122; I have since richened my PE curve which is shown in post 37 above).

If the VE table is correctly dialed in, then the EQ or AFR in the OLFA and PE tables will show up in the actual wideband measured EQ or AFR (i.e. actual measured AFR will equal commanded AFR, i.e. BEN will be 1.00 +/-0.02 or better).


Oh, and I guess it's also time to do the steps with the "returning to closed loop", right?No, don't return to CL yet, you're not done yet; stay in OL for a while longer, or even forever... :D

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/9995/olfapelw4.png

[joecar]

Here's a pic from my tune of last week... follow EQ and EQ_WBO2S...


http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/8512/olfape2ap7.png

[ViolatorTA]

I guess I'll follow this thread since I'm following right behind garry tuning mine. I believe he wants to know if he should enable PE again now. Closed loop, speed density.

If I can get mine to idle about 300rpm higher I'd feel golden. Thought I had it but it reverted back to the 600-650 range.

On my maps, the average cells don't achieve the color green. Should this be a concern. I built the filter the tutorial tells you to and filter out after each log. Last log has me at .98 in alot of cells but they aren't green.

Oh. This car is cammed with a TSP 231/237 cam on a 112 LC with LS6 intake and ported TB and ported 5.3 heads, LT's, lid, 160 tstat and no cats if that helps. The TB blade hole was sealed shut by the porter for when I was full bolt ons.

[joecar]

Enable PE; you can continuing doing Auto VE tuning with PE enabled; PE would normally be disabled during the first few iterations (make sure your OLFA is sufficiently rich) until you get your VE table close, but after that you can certainly run PE,.

stay in OLSD for a while longer, get used to how your engine behaves like this, make sure your have your PE setup good in OLSD (good power, good throttle response, no knock, good timing; this is the simplest manner the engine runs, and simple is good, it doesn't rely on O2/MAF sensors)... ;)

There's a few other threads dealing with cammed idle...

The colour of the cells is just to show you the spread from min to max values... post pics of your maps (like this) (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=3064)

[ViolatorTA]

I'd like to but I can't figue out how on this laptop with no printer installed and the print screen key is the same as the insert key with prt sc on the bottom in blue letters.:help2:

[ViolatorTA]

Garry,

How do your VE tables look now that you did the paste and multiply. Did you smooth anything yet or do they have spikes?

[Garry]

Not much of spikes in there - I recon if you do have spikes, they are the leftovers of the 15% increase you did in the beginning - I manually smoothed them out after the first logg run ... they were mainly in area I'd probably not hit during my driving (heck, I've never done the type of driving that I did to fill those cells in the map ... :) )

[Garry]

I'd like to but I can't figue out how on this laptop with no printer installed and the print screen key is the same as the insert key with prt sc on the bottom in blue letters.:help2:
Check the bottom left of your keyboard, you should have a blue FN key or something like that ...

Also, there are screenshot-programs out there that let you do captures by pressing other keys ... if all else fails, that should get you going ...

[ViolatorTA]

OK. Try this once. I think I got it.

Thanks Garry

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/6541/picture1gy9.th.png (http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1gy9.png)

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2733/picture2ah9.th.png (http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture2ah9.png)

[joecar]

Violator, your BEN's are gettting close. :cheers:


Hmmm... your pics came out tiny.... edit your post and delete the extra ...
did you press this button (see circled in red) and paste in the link...?
if you did then your pics should show up big... were your pics big when you saved them...?


http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7401/buttonyn8.png

[ViolatorTA]

If you click on them they should open up a new window with the pic shown bigger.

I have some new data to post up. Having a slight problem down low on MAP and mid RPM range. Each time I paste with labels and multiply everything else gets closer but one region of the MAP.:nixweiss: I'll work on getting them up in the next few minutes. Just got back from another logging run.:muahaha:

[ViolatorTA]

ok. First 4 are from 2 logs ago. Second 4 are from last log.

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/7449/picture3xb1.th.png (http://img283.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture3xb1.png)

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2752/picture4rk6.th.png (http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture4rk6.png)

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/5081/picture5vm3.th.png (http://img283.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture5vm3.png)

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/672/picture6qt8.th.png (http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture6qt8.png)

[ViolatorTA]

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/2030/picture7iq5.th.png (http://img283.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture7iq5.png)

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6203/picture8lq0.th.png (http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture8lq0.png)

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/8025/picture9pk5.th.png (http://img283.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture9pk5.png)

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1439/picture10vo0.th.png (http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture10vo0.png)

[Garry]

Looks similar to my results, got some low BENs in the 15kPa column, too ...

[ringram]

If you are careful Id suggest you could skip adding 15% on a stock engine.
Also you guys might want to take a look at custom OS3 and 5.
Both have a fully commanded fuel map which means you never need PE again.
You can command rich at WOT and leaner at idle and low load to save some gas. Best of all worlds.

How is the car running now Garry? Any faster?

[Garry]

Most of the 15% is already out again on my tune ... Some areas are something like 5% over the stock tune, would need to go back and check the differences in the VE tables ... for the other OS; I recon I need to find someone to program it ;)

Apart from that, the motor seems smoother, idle RPM seems to have gone down some, dunno if that was caused be the BEN correction of the tables ...

[ringram]

Have a go at tuning idle with the RAFPN and RAFIG pids.
That will keep you busy for a while, you will get a nice smooth idle from it. You can even idle below 700 with the M6. I used to idle around 650.

Then play with throttle follower, thats a fun one. Oh hey, hand port your TB too.

[ViolatorTA]

ringram,
Thanks for replying. After reading through alot of the forum I know you and joecar know your way around this program and it's great to have your help.

While garry is tuning a pretty much stock engine I'm trying to tame this H/C full bolton setup and the cam doesn't seem to want to play fair.(231/237 595/598 112lc). I started by loading someones file I got from either Holden Crazy or the other site.(can't remember which for sure) His mods were almost identical to mine with a difference in name brand headers and he has a 2002. Mine being a 99 I went through each cat on the left of efilive and copy,pasted his VE, PE and idle figures. Most of the rest was similar. The car actually fired and idled decent which it wouldn't do at all on stock tune. I then started the AutoVE with that but only increased VE by 5% since the car was pig rich on the test run when I first installed the program. I have since been pulling alot out of the VE down low and VE is getting spikes even though the car is really comming on strong esp at WOT.

[ringram]

Cam sounds nice. You will need to spend some time in the lower reigons and might want to stay in SD too. You might find autove a little weird for idle cells.
If so try the bidirectional controlls and get the engine to idle smoothly with the leanest mix, mess with spark to smooth too. Cycle around RPM, AFR and Spark at idle to get it at the lowest MAP, then fix the values into the tune (Base spark, idle rpm, ve or prefrerably B3647) Thats how I attack things at idle. Oh then do the RAF Pids again. It usually takes a few iterations to dial it in fully.

[joecar]

I don't have a cam YET :D , so I don't can't say much...

but I agree with ringram, best idle with leanest AFR, and spark timing plays a good part in idle.