Why EFI Live isn't as good as it could be...challenge is issued.

[onfire]

I hoped that title would get some comments/views.

I bought the commercial version so I can play with sd down the road.

The VE tutorial is very good along with the other tutorials.

THE PROBLEM: EFI LIVE needs a comprehensive "how to" tutorial for ALL of the features it has. Hot idle problems, cold idle problems, detailed instructions to install and tune a sd os for a boosted engine, 2bar, 3bar tuning, rpm vs PE, decel airflow,etc.

If you don't think that's necessary, just read all of the related posts on this forum....most folks (including me) can't use 10% of the power EFI Live has due to the lack of instructions.

I love EFI Live and would buy it again...just want to make it better than the other guys(who have stepped up THEIR tutorial approach).

Make it a goal to add ONE tutorial a month to address the repeated topics on this forum.

Just MHO:) .

Cheers.

Tom d.

[onfire]

Come on....20 views and no comments.....tell me we don't need no stinkin manual...do it the manly way and spend hours figuring it out.......countless folks have programmed without a manual....

a manual would piss off the tuners for hire.....

or......

[dc_justin]

I do believe this question has been asked and answered before. I'll let one of those that knows more than myself answer for certain.

[ntae]

I beleve from the start EFIlive was not going to have a tutoral on how to tune. You should know what a VE table does if you purchase EFIlive . There is a space on every table for you to add your own notes about that table and what it does . There is training on EFIlive from a thrid party if you needed as well


http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=2807

[dfe1]

The concept of a comprehensive tutorial is excellent. The reality is that it will take a lot of time and resources to complete it, and when it's all done, it will still leave questions unanswered. It's impossible to answer every possible tuning question, many of which are a consequence of mechanical problems or ill advised modifications. Then, after you resolve all those issues, how do you adequately convey the information to people who don't understand how an internal combustion engine works?
Certainly, more detailed tutorials would be helpful, and I'm sure they will come in time, but I think it's unrealistic to expect Ross and Paul to take time away from software development to write them in the short term. In the mean time, all the members of the EFILive forum have been doing a great job helping anyone with a problem.

[bink]

I do believe this question has been asked and answered before. I'll let one of those that knows more than myself answer for certain.

I don't know more...but, I have the basics of the "Answer".

EFILive's FlashScan is a tuning "Tool". EFILive provides the tool they do not provide training for the tool.

I bought a Dewalt compound miter saw at Home Depot. Dewalt doesn't provide a carpentry tutorial for the saw. Same concept.

:cheers:
joel

[ringram]

There are some good books around. Plus you will read enough after a few days searching and reading posts here to get a handle on the basics.
You will soon see that a rigid guide for beginners just wont work. Too many variables, Autotune, Idle and timing are pretty much the basic processes. Then fiddle about to personalise things. The Autotune tutorial comes with the product. The idle tune is a sticky.
Timing is tricky and should really be done on a dyno, but if you mess about long enough you can get something that works fairly well.

Some like lots of throttle follower, others like no decel fuel cut off. Idle speeds are also personal, trans shifts are a whole new kettle of fish too. Again as mentioned far too many variables to tell someone "do this, then that"

[jfpilla]

JMO!!!

In addition to the aforementioned.
-Tuning is more complicated than you realize. Have fun doing a writeup.
-There is no definitive tuning method.
-There are legal issues if you blow your engine using their written methods.

[Highlander]

i went to sears and bought a wrench and even with all the warranty i think it blows because it doesnt come with instructions. if it came it would have been a much better tool

[redhardsupra]

why have a static document if you could have a permanently growing/self-updating document...like, you know...forums? :)

seriously tho, i'd love to see moderators to go occasionally through the good discussions and make concise versions of them. there's a lot of good stuff here, but sometimes even the nutcases like myself dont feel like plowing thorugh 19 pages...

[Highlander]

No need.... Read the forums... people whine about everything i guess.

[joecar]

I believe EFILive have stated that they provide the tools, and the training can be covered better by third parties.

The tuning info is all out there scattered across the web, it's just a matter of locating it.

[onfire]

I beleve from the start EFIlive was not going to have a tutoral on how to tune. You should know what a VE table does if you purchase EFIlive . There is a space on every table for you to add your own notes about that table and what it does . There is training on EFIlive from a thrid party if you needed as well


http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=2807


That would be a great option to help learn the basics. What ever happened to the locations and dates????

[onfire]

The concept of a comprehensive tutorial is excellent. The reality is that it will take a lot of time and resources to complete it, and when it's all done, it will still leave questions unanswered. It's impossible to answer every possible tuning question, many of which are a consequence of mechanical problems or ill advised modifications. Then, after you resolve all those issues, how do you adequately convey the information to people who don't understand how an internal combustion engine works?
Certainly, more detailed tutorials would be helpful, and I'm sure they will come in time, but I think it's unrealistic to expect Ross and Paul to take time away from software development to write them in the short term. In the mean time, all the members of the EFILive forum have been doing a great job helping anyone with a problem.

Totally agree that nothing is 100%.....wayyy too time consuming....when was the last time a tutorial was added????

I would think one a month wouldn't crash the development system...or farm it out to someone like waitforme (Jesse) and pay him a couple of bucks to write one per month.

[onfire]

I don't know more...but, I have the basics of the "Answer".

EFILive's FlashScan is a tuning "Tool". EFILive provides the tool they do not provide training for the tool.

I bought a Dewalt compound miter saw at Home Depot. Dewalt doesn't provide a carpentry tutorial for the saw. Same concept.

:cheers:
joel


Actually, Home Depot and Lowes hold free classes for saws, etc. Why? It's a great marketing tool to do so....sell many more saws to folks that are not afraid to use a saw. I have a friend that reps for Home Depot....Sluchter (sp?) Systems...most of his time is spent on training others for free.....and it sells a bunch of ceramic trim pieces and tile underlayment....smart marketing....

[joecar]

You're correct, basically we need someone who can pull together all the material on the web and colate, arrange, edit it to make a nice tutorial.

I do believe Ringram has begun this sort of undertaking (I'm searching for it)... it's like writing a book, consumes a lot of time...

I think we need to collect the several informal tutorials on this forum together in their own sticky subsection...

[onfire]

There are some good books around. Plus you will read enough after a few days searching and reading posts here to get a handle on the basics.
You will soon see that a rigid guide for beginners just wont work. Too many variables, Autotune, Idle and timing are pretty much the basic processes. Then fiddle about to personalise things. The Autotune tutorial comes with the product. The idle tune is a sticky.
Timing is tricky and should really be done on a dyno, but if you mess about long enough you can get something that works fairly well.

Some like lots of throttle follower, others like no decel fuel cut off. Idle speeds are also personal, trans shifts are a whole new kettle of fish too. Again as mentioned far too many variables to tell someone "do this, then that"


Totally agree the stickies are very helpful.....

I'm personally not looking for a cook book that is 100% of a=b=c= great tune. But go look at all the folks here and at ls1tech that continually have problems....especially with sd fo FI.....a tutorial on sd could help answer 1000's of questions...and market the product.

[onfire]

JMO!!!

In addition to the aforementioned.
-Tuning is more complicated than you realize. Have fun doing a writeup.
-There is no definitive tuning method.
-There are legal issues if you blow your engine using their written methods.

If it wasn't MORE COMPLICATED than I wouldn't have raised the question about more tutorials....

There is no definitive tuning method for ALL COMBINATIONS....but there are good general guidelines for specific tunes....ie, you don't want a newbie targeting 14.7 : 1 for wot......and I've seen the question asked over and over.....

Legal issues huh....a huge risk was taken when they released the software....anybody deleting EPA controls? They must have gotten some legal comfort somewhere.

[onfire]

i went to sears and bought a wrench and even with all the warranty i think it blows because it doesnt come with instructions. if it came it would have been a much better tool



Wow....just wow.

[onfire]

why have a static document if you could have a permanently growing/self-updating document...like, you know...forums? :)

seriously tho, i'd love to see moderators to go occasionally through the good discussions and make concise versions of them. there's a lot of good stuff here, but sometimes even the nutcases like myself dont feel like plowing thorugh 19 pages...


100% agree....plus some of the forum info needs to be deleted.

[onfire]

No need.... Read the forums... people whine about everything i guess.

No whine here bro.....forum material vs an EFI tutorial...I'll take the tutorial....forum material can be awesome...can be junk also..

[onfire]

You're correct, basically we need someone who can pull together all the material on the web and colate, arrange, edit it to make a nice tutorial.

I do believe Ringram has begun this sort of undertaking (I'm searching for it)... it's like writing a book, consumes a lot of time...

I think we need to collect the several informal tutorials on this forum together in their own sticky subsection...

I think from an EFI marketing standpoint...it would really help them sell more of the product.

I also appreciate your post...your thinking about the positives.....the work involved would be considerable....needs to be accomplished over time to keep from overwhelming someone(s).

[GMPX]

Well, first up, you are assuming myself and Paul are tuning experts......bzzzt, wrong :) .
Often I speak to our workshop customers who tell me things they find in tuning that don't make sense to my logical mind but in the end, it is what works.
I totally understand where you are coming from though, it is a major task to write any sort of 'how to tune' manual, companies like EFI University run courses over several days to teach people.

Unfortunately in this day and age of no-one wanting to be responsible for their actions any official 'how to tune' document from EFILive would be open own to alot of legal mumbo jumbo we would rather avoid.

Some of our resellers do ofer a starter tune when you purchase so you can get a feel of the 'typical' modifications.
There is also a few file repositories where you can download files of modified tunes, unfortunately the same problems pop up, if you use the file and your engine blows up are you willing to accept the blame?

Cheers,
Ross

[ringram]

Yes, I did start one which you can DL here http://efiforum.iqd.co.nz/showthread.php?t=2036

If you take a look you will see its really intended to explain how everything fits together and what you want to look at when getting started. There isnt any do this or that specifically, just where to start looking. I dont want to make it a fixed recipie because it would be wrong. Its also been transferred to the website Garry setup as a wiki. So now everyone who wants to can contribute.

If you pulled all the info on this site together you would have something pretty impressive. There are map creating tutorials from Black02SS plus loads of other stuff.

Feel free to start pulling it all into the wiki. Then you can print it off from there.

[onfire]

Well, first up, you are assuming myself and Paul are tuning experts......bzzzt, wrong :) .
Often I speak to our workshop customers who tell me things they find in tuning that don't make sense to my logical mind but in the end, it is what works.
I totally understand where you are coming from though, it is a major task to write any sort of 'how to tune' manual, companies like EFI University run courses over several days to teach people.

Unfortunately in this day and age of no-one wanting to be responsible for their actions any official 'how to tune' document from EFILive would be open own to alot of legal mumbo jumbo we would rather avoid.

Some of our resellers do ofer a starter tune when you purchase so you can get a feel of the 'typical' modifications.
There is also a few file repositories where you can download files of modified tunes, unfortunately the same problems pop up, if you use the file and your engine blows up are you willing to accept the blame?

Cheers,
Ross

Totally understand the "litigious society" issue. Obviously, the forum is a huge help...it's just a shame to have a great software and some folks struggleing to use it....I love the software...used it to tune my personal car to +700rwhp +800rwtq...so I'm somewhat familiar with it...however I'm at a crossroad myself...going to add another 100rwhp and need to decide on a custom OS and SD but there are too many unanswered questions out there about SD tuning....just look at the posts here and at LS1tech....

Could you add a few more "software" tutorials ...not necessarily "how to tune " tutorials... such as how to install the SD OS System and the various functions that have to be modified. I've read what exists and understand why there are existing issues with SD.

"willing to accept the blame" is an easy answer for me. If I make any change to my engine and it fails....it's my fault....that's the price of playing....and seems to be hard for folks to understand...make a change is just that...you modified it from stock...if it breaks don't whine just fix it and learn why it broke.

Thanks for the input.

[onfire]

Yes, I did start one which you can DL here http://efiforum.iqd.co.nz/showthread.php?t=2036

If you take a look you will see its really intended to explain how everything fits together and what you want to look at when getting started. There isnt any do this or that specifically, just where to start looking. I dont want to make it a fixed recipie because it would be wrong. Its also been transferred to the website Garry setup as a wiki. So now everyone who wants to can contribute.

If you pulled all the info on this site together you would have something pretty impressive. There are map creating tutorials from Black02SS plus loads of other stuff.

Feel free to start pulling it all into the wiki. Then you can print it off from there.

This could be a great help document.

[joecar]

Ha, I'm having trouble locating the Wiki link, can someone help me out...

Edit: I'm all better now, I found it...

https://www.fbodyknowledge.org/wiki/index.php/Tuning_with_EFILive

Looks like it needs some work...

[Doc]

"willing to accept the blame" is an easy answer for me. If I make any change to my engine and it fails....it's my fault....that's the price of playing....and seems to be hard for folks to understand...make a change is just that...you modified it from stock...if it breaks don't whine just fix it and learn why it broke.


Nice thread, however in this day and age not everyone will undertake such a daunting task and be willing to take all the responsibility, good or bad themselves as you have addressed before. I see the sincere thought you have put it into this. With that said, how about setting up a poll for your question of all EFI users? I won't hazard a guess as how many registered or potentially registered users will/ do feel about the aforementioned subject. I really do sympathize with your line of thought, though the reality of the situation is if as you really desire a comphrensive set of instructions were to be laid out in a timely manner on this subject by EFI Live it'self I would think that they would undoubtably have to incorporate the associated cost into the end product. Bottom line, good tech writing is not cheap. As most enthusiatists on this forum would probably agree we are a pioneering sort as it is not settling for the tunes the General has given us, we have taken this endevour upon ourselves via this forum to arrive at the right tune(s). Hell, if you post up a poll and can prove a genuine market exists then I am sure the market will bear a solution.
:cheers:

[SinisterSS]

If there was such a knowledge repository created, would it be stolen by some other company of lesser ethics, rewritten and passed off as "Look at us; we did it first - all must worship us. Resistance and innovation is futile; you will be assimilated. PS - Give us more money for the open source project."

[TAQuickness]

I hoped that title would get some comments/views.

I bought the commercial version so I can play with sd down the road.

The VE tutorial is very good along with the other tutorials.

THE PROBLEM: EFI LIVE needs a comprehensive "how to" tutorial for ALL of the features it has. Hot idle problems, cold idle problems, detailed instructions to install and tune a sd os for a boosted engine, 2bar, 3bar tuning, rpm vs PE, decel airflow,etc.

If you don't think that's necessary, just read all of the related posts on this forum....most folks (including me) can't use 10% of the power EFI Live has due to the lack of instructions.

I love EFI Live and would buy it again...just want to make it better than the other guys(who have stepped up THEIR tutorial approach).

Make it a goal to add ONE tutorial a month to address the repeated topics on this forum.

Just MHO:) .

Cheers.

Tom d.

thanks Tom.

Kinda goes like this, "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for life."

What specifically are you needing help with? Maybe we can teach you how to fish ;)

[TAQuickness]

If there was such a knowledge repository created, would it be stolen by some other company of lesser ethics, rewritten and passed off as "Look at us; we did it first - all must worship us. Resistance and innovation is futile; you will be assimilated. PS - Give us more money for the open source project."


:muahaha: :rockon: LMAO - I just had that conversation with foff

[Blacky]

thanks Tom.

Kinda goes like this, "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for life."

What specifically are you needing help with? Maybe we can teach you how to fish ;)

Or the Australian version:

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he sits in his boat and drinks beer all day.
:D

Paul

[TAQuickness]

Or the Australian version:

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he sits in his boat and drinks beer all day.
:D

Paul


You guys must be connected to Louisiana somehow... :D

[dfe1]

You guys must be connected to Louisiana somehow... :D
If you carefully read the history books, you'll find that a large contingent of Louisiana residents were once placed in untuned sail boats and set adrift in the Pacific. They were never heard from again. It's a little known fact that they tried to return to the US coastline, but rigged their sails according to HPT protocol, which caused them to sail across an entire ocean, instead of returning to the US. Thus began a new chapter in the history of Australia and New Zealand.

[neil]

Just a couple of question and comments.
I seem to be in the same boat as a lot of you other guys. I also concur with most of your comments.
There is no structured reference of information, just a lot of questions and answers supplied within the forums. Great if you have that specific problem but of little value or confusing if you are just starting.
This is not a criticism; I'm trying to be constructive. I think you are doing a great job under great duress.
How come if you can produce this great software you can't produce a basic tuning guide for newcomers?
It just needs to be a basic set of instructions come flow chart on the processes involved to tune your engine. There could be advanced information in a separate section.
It seems to me that if you're talking litigation that there would be far more risk involved producing a piece of software with no basic instructions on how to use it than supplying basic set instructions.
The tutorials are good but there is no integration between them. They are just stand alone information.
A great piece of software is of no use to most people if you don't know how to use it.
Why does the HP Tuners group seem to have much more "how to do it" tuning information that EFILive?
It also seems that more HP Tuners people are willing to share specific information with others.

Regards,

Neil.

[redhardsupra]

good point about no integration, i've been putting together in my head the past week how do i combine all this stuff, how do i write 'glue' that would show 'when' and 'why', and leave the 'how' to the writeups themselves...it's harder than you think--i can't figure out a way to talk about big concepts without diving into hardcore details.

my private annoyance is lack of coherency and direction among writeups. even simple stuff like do we disable PE for VE tuning or not, every writeup has a different take. they all got a good point, but not enough to just clobber all the other writeups into uselessness.

i could really write a book, only if i didn't hve a thesis to write instead... :/

[dc_justin]

It also seems that more HP Tuners people are willing to share specific information with others.


I don't know where that comes from, I have found this forum to be quite good at answering people's questions. :nixweiss: As I see it, this place seems to have quite a bit more seasoned veteran type tuners that aren't typically inclined to post entry-level type tuning questions, whereas HPT forum involves a lot of new-comers that are anxious to ask questions. If all of a sudden we saw an influx of basic questions, I'm almost certain we'd see the same type of responses here as seen on HPT's forum.

[dc_justin]

i could really write a book, only if i didn't hve a thesis to write instead... :/

You attend one of those schools there on what used to be Fort Ord?

[onfire]

Nice thread, however in this day and age not everyone will undertake such a daunting task and be willing to take all the responsibility, good or bad themselves as you have addressed before. I see the sincere thought you have put it into this. With that said, how about setting up a poll for your question of all EFI users? I won't hazard a guess as how many registered or potentially registered users will/ do feel about the aforementioned subject. I really do sympathize with your line of thought, though the reality of the situation is if as you really desire a comphrensive set of instructions were to be laid out in a timely manner on this subject by EFI Live it'self I would think that they would undoubtably have to incorporate the associated cost into the end product. Bottom line, good tech writing is not cheap. As most enthusiatists on this forum would probably agree we are a pioneering sort as it is not settling for the tunes the General has given us, we have taken this endevour upon ourselves via this forum to arrive at the right tune(s). Hell, if you post up a poll and can prove a genuine market exists then I am sure the market will bear a solution.
:cheers:

Good idea for a poll. Good worded even handed post about the question also.....care to post the poll?:)

[onfire]

thanks Tom.

Kinda goes like this, "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for life."

What specifically are you needing help with? Maybe we can teach you how to fish ;)

I truly have two goals....

1)more tutorials/docs/ (please forgive me) "tuning docs" for everybody's benefit.

2). I'm trying to learn more about implementing the custom OS for a SD tune....I've even posted on here and ls1tech before about sd....trying to convince myself it's worth the effort to change with all the unknowns concerning just installing the os....before all the tuning Q's come to play...honestly I'm still not convinced even though I know a maf plus RPM vs PE tune is sorta a hack for twin turbos over 700rwhp.....but it's a smooth idleing, easy to start, easy to cruise, great at wot hack of a tune.

HP Tuners are increasing their tutorials with a simulated install doc that's really comprehensive.....just don't want the best tuning software to fall behind.

[onfire]

BTW, redhardsupra has one of the most comprehensive sites for tuning Q & A's.....if that could be blended into an overall doc it would be impressive.

[onfire]

At the very least, we're talking about it....in friendly terms.

[redhardsupra]

You attend one of those schools there on what used to be Fort Ord?
very close... speaking of, Ford Ord can be seen from the top of the hill at Laguna, right by the corkscrew :master:

anyway, back to the topic...
we need to estabilish a board (moderators, few more 'seasoned' people) that would split the work up, discuss it among themselves, and sort shit out proper. i know there is more than one way to skin a cat (eat me, PETA!) but i think for a general tutorial we could probably agree on a good set of 'lowest common denominator' sort of procedures and methodologies.

ringram's outline is a good starting point, i have my own, we should probably compare notes and duke it out...

[redhardsupra]

BTW, redhardsupra has one of the most comprehensive sites for tuning Q & A's.....if that could be blended into an overall doc it would be impressive.

i'd love to read more, you know any others that aren't obsolete?
i found some sites that talk about LT1/ALDL stuff, and some ls1edit/autotap stuff, but other than that, it's me and ringram that keep adding, with an occasional good post on ls1tech. it kinds sucks that people take this stuff for free, but aren't contributing back...

[ringram]

Yeah take a look here as well.
Kind of goes off topic a little, but generally some reasonable tuning stuff in there http://r8transformation.blogspot.com/
redhardsupra's is a little more technical and theoretical. Mine is more trial and error, with some theory thrown in to scare children.

[onfire]

i'd love to read more, you know any others that aren't obsolete?
i found some sites that talk about LT1/ALDL stuff, and some ls1edit/autotap stuff, but other than that, it's me and ringram that keep adding, with an occasional good post on ls1tech. it kinds sucks that people take this stuff for free, but aren't contributing back...

I'm sure you have read them already (and some are yours), but the stickies at ls1tech are pretty good....they just need some misinformation pruned out of them....and more quality info added.

[onfire]

LS1tech stickies + ringram + redhardsupra + some pruning + additional tech = a great os system and tuning document.......to add to over time....

[mmorgan24]

I feel that for the money EFILive should provide some documentation on what some of the basic items that should be tackled for tuning an LSx vehicle. I mean basic here folks - basis of VE Tuning with their software, making timing changes with their software, firming up the shifts and shift points with their software, highway cruise with their software, what PE is and how it relates to tuning an LS1 with their software, etc - if one purchased an off the shelf programmer it would do 3-5 things and that's what most of us want anyway out of the gate - as a dyno operator and business owner I want the skinny on the basics in a manual format on where I should be going to get the most out of a car's tune as I don't have hours upon hours to get things done.

This is not a toy and I don't want to play with it just get the basics correct and go on. No offense, but I also don't want to believe everything I read in the forum with NO documented facts from EFILive to back them up. I feel I deserve better than I am getting from whomever the tuner company is. Most of the people on this forum are not tuner's IMHO but persons working on their own vehicles for fun - it's a business to me.

PS: When are LS2's going to be supported - I deserve an answer to that too.

[redhardsupra]

dude, if you get the concepts rights, the software manual is moot. to know such concepts, you dont really need any software, just read some books, and when you hop into an actual software package, you just get new labels for old concepts, and it takes like an hour to become fluent in any. so please stop spazzing, and just start reading. efilive or hpt are not tuning concept book publishers, they're software companies that allow you to interface with hardware, that just happens to have four wheels attached to it, and as such they do fine.

software or manuals cannot make up for lack of tuning concepts, it can only speed up the processes you're already familiar with. they can make learning easier, but you still gotta have something more to go off than attitude and money spent.

if you need it spoon fed and with pretty pictures, efi101.com will gladly take your money.

[mmorgan24]

I don't need any EFI tuning advice normally and yes I've taken EFI101 (great coursework, book and instructor) and yes I've read tons of material over the years and have plenty of EFI experience on the street, track and my dyno - it's just that EFILive doesn't have any good DOCUMENTATION to start with. I don't own an LSx vehicle but many of my customer's do - and they expect me to get results immediately - if I had a test vehicle I could "play with" for a few months then it would be better, but I really think we all deserve an owner's manual to start with. AEM EMS, Motec, Autronic, Emanage, Power Commander, etc come with basic manuals and yes it does take time working with those products but they only have tens of options. EFI live has literally hundreds of options to work with and it's not something that can be picked up in a reasonable amount of time without some basic pointers IMHO.

If I wanted to turn off the rear O2's on a LSx today I should be able to go to the manual and read what options to look for and what to do with them - EXACTLY to get the results. If I want to add fuel at WOT at 5400 RPM the manual should tell me where I should be looking and what do to. If I wanted to extend the rev limiter by 500 RPMs a manual should tell me where to look. ETC ETC ETC. Basic stuff - bolt on performance tweaking is all I'm looking for. If I had a race car with an LSx in it I would try some more things like SD and expect to have to work with it some more to get what I wanted done - but if we are talking about making small changes to basic EFI fields to get my customer's bolt-ons car running with a few more ponies I should have a guide that points me in those directions - and quickly.

A would take a PDF manual at a min that's updated from time to time as it would be more than I have now.

[Doc]

So you feel that for the mere pittance you paid to get EFI Live you now deserve more? The kind of development you are asking for takes real people who know what the they are talking about real time to produce a quality product-they deserve to feed their families too. If as I sated before in this thread, you the folks who are demanding such a product post up a poll and let the potential developers (who lurk on this board and others) know an actual number of people interested in such a product. If there is a sufficient number of people, then I am sure the market will bear out a solution. As far as I am concerned the information on this board including but, not limited to these links are more than sufficient for basic information

http://68.178.219.18/documentation/EFILiveV73Tune.pdf

http://68.178.219.18/documentation/EFILiveV73Scan.pdf

Do you want EFI Live to cost 5000.00 usd? Who is going to pay for the time for people to do this?

I have worked in many foreign countries and while I am not proficient in every language all the locals seem to appreciate the effort I put forth to observe their customs. The same is true on this board, I have found with a little research on my own the locals here have always helped me out.;)

[dc_justin]

So you feel that for the mere pittance you paid to get EFI Live you now deserve more? The kind of development you are asking for takes real people who know what the they are talking about real time to produce a quality product-they deserve to feed their families too. If as I sated before in this thread, you the folks who are demanding such a product post up a poll and let the potential developers (who lurk on this board and others) know an actual number of people interested in such a product. If there is a sufficient number of people, then I am sure the market will bear out a solution. As far as I am concerned the information on this board including but, not limited to these links are more than sufficient for basic information

http://68.178.219.18/documentation/EFILiveV73Tune.pdf

http://68.178.219.18/documentation/EFILiveV73Scan.pdf

Do you want EFI Live to cost 5000.00 usd? Who is going to pay for the time for people to do this?

I have worked in many foreign countries and while I am not proficient in every language all the locals seem to appreciate the effort I put forth to observe their customs. The same is true on this board, I have found with a little research on my own the locals here have always helped me out.;)

Well stated. :cheers:

[neil]

So you feel that for the mere pittance you paid to get EFI Live you now deserve more? The kind of development you are asking for takes real people who know what the they are talking about real time to produce a quality product-they deserve to feed their families too. If as I sated before in this thread, you the folks who are demanding such a product post up a poll and let the potential developers (who lurk on this board and others) know an actual number of people interested in such a product. If there is a sufficient number of people, then I am sure the market will bear out a solution. As far as I am concerned the information on this board including but, not limited to these links are more than sufficient for basic information

http://68.178.219.18/documentation/EFILiveV73Tune.pdf

http://68.178.219.18/documentation/EFILiveV73Scan.pdf

Do you want EFI Live to cost 5000.00 usd? Who is going to pay for the time for people to do this?

I have worked in many foreign countries and while I am not proficient in every language all the locals seem to appreciate the effort I put forth to observe their customs. The same is true on this board, I have found with a little research on my own the locals here have always helped me out.;)



You are obviously talking from a position of a great deal of experience which you would have gained over many years.
The EFILive documentation, while very well written is just a listing of features and doesn't give a basic tune flow chart of the procedures involved.
Many newcomers are not in this position of experience and would really appreciate some help.
We are not talking about a 500 page definitive manual but some simple but clear instructions that can be used as a starting point.
The forums are great but there is very little information on where and how to start the tuning process. What there is is scattered over many threads and difficult to follow. Most of the information on the forum is answers to questions people have while trying to work out this process. This great info but not much use to someone starting out, often confusing.
I’m sure people would love to have the benefit of the knowledge of people that have gone though this process already.
There are very few base tunes available for study for comparison.
Very little info on tuning for economy while improving performance, which many people may be interested in if the only requirement is to improve performance on a stock vehicle. Many people can’t afford to or don’t want to modify their vehicles.
For over $1000 AU one would expect more information on the use of this program.
Like previous people have mentioned most people who purchase this program will be backyard tuners without a lot of professional experience in this area.
These people would really appreciate some basic user information.
These people probably provide the bulk of sales for this type of program and happy customers are a great form of advertising.

Regards,

Neil.

[redhardsupra]

here's your flowchart:

0. hardware:
IFR, cyl vol, fuel pressure, initial target idle VE/spark
1. initial idle tune:
RAF, idle area VE, cracker/follower
2. initial drivability (< 4000 rpm):
more RAF, more VE
by now the car shoudl drive fine, so:
3. full VE, watching and adjusting for knock--do both until fuel trims are clean and so is the knock table
4. WOT tuning
5. MAF tuning

the end.
hard, wasn't it?

[joecar]

...I think we need to collect the several informal tutorials on this forum together in their own sticky subsection... There is a Tutorials section on this forum...
It could use some tidy up (and collecting scattered threads together to reside therein), but it's there.

[TAQuickness]

You are obviously talking from a position of a great deal of experience which you would have gained over many years.
The EFILive documentation, while very well written is just a listing of features and doesn't give a basic tune flow chart of the procedures involved.
Many newcomers are not in this position of experience and would really appreciate some help.
We are not talking about a 500 page definitive manual but some simple but clear instructions that can be used as a starting point.
The forums are great but there is very little information on where and how to start the tuning process. What there is is scattered over many threads and difficult to follow. Most of the information on the forum is answers to questions people have while trying to work out this process. This great info but not much use to someone starting out, often confusing.
I’m sure people would love to have the benefit of the knowledge of people that have gone though this process already.
There are very few base tunes available for study for comparison.
Very little info on tuning for economy while improving performance, which many people may be interested in if the only requirement is to improve performance on a stock vehicle. Many people can’t afford to or don’t want to modify their vehicles.
For over $1000 AU one would expect more information on the use of this program.
Like previous people have mentioned most people who purchase this program will be backyard tuners without a lot of professional experience in this area.
These people would really appreciate some basic user information.
These people probably provide the bulk of sales for this type of program and happy customers are a great form of advertising.

Regards,

Neil.

Neil - If you don't mind my asking, how do you think the rest of us got going?

I'll venture to say the majority of us "seasoned" tuners resorted to asking questions of other folks, trial and error, and a few of us even resorted to writing the basic tutorials found the in the "Help -> Tutorials" of the Scan and Tune tool.

So far in this thread, I've heard some ligitimate request, and an aweful lot of whining. So to all the whiners, if you don't like it, why don't you do something about it? It's a perfect opportunity for you to contribute your 1 tutorial per month ;)

[neil]

I would gladly contribute but I'm still at the learning stage trying to find information.
Thats why we ask questions.

Regards,

Neil.

[Black02SS]

I have been reading over this thread for a few days and see both sides. I am one of the guys that started back when all we had was LS1Edit and a horrible email help forum (if you can call it that). There was no documentation, no customer support from the owners, nothing. We paid and got the cable. How did we learn? Just like TA said, by asking questions, READING, and just trying things on our own. I can't tell you how frustrated I got when I first started. I had no idea where to start, what to do, or what to change. It got to the point where I realized that I wasn't going to be hand fed on how to do this. Sure there were others out there that had the knowledge, but you have to remember, this is how some people feed their families. With the way the tuning market is now, anyone can purchase a wideband and a tuner and start, you have to make a business decision somewhere (if in it for money) to regulate what you let be known IMO.

Take tuning a car as designing a motor. You have been doing it for sometime now and know what it takes for certain combos to make the power and DRIVE similar to stock. Why would a motor builder with the same knowledge just openly let people know his secrets and how he gets to that point? All he would be doing is taking money out of his pocket as it is easy for someone to mimic his hard work, tuning is no different.

There is a bunch of information on the forums that tell the concepts of tuning, you just need to do some research and see how that relates to EFIlive. Some are specific to EFIlive and some aren't. Even if all you guys want to do is change the fueling at WOT, you need to know why and how. Not just go to this table and change it. Because if you just go to that table and change it, you are doing it wrong as other tables need to be changed way before you even think about that one. ;)

Doc hit it on the head when he said if you SHOW that you are wiling to learn and do the time searching and trying things, many will be very open and willing to help. If you don't and expect things to be handed to you with a silver spoon, that is when some answers go left untouched...

Here is some advice. You need to learn how to properly scan the vehicle and the pids before you start tuning a car. This is my new motto. If you can't read, you can't write. Same goes with this. If you can't read the scans, then you can't write a tune.

[5.3]

Why does the HP Tuners group seem to have much more "how to do it" tuning information that EFILive?
It also seems that more HP Tuners people are willing to share specific information with others.

Regards,

Neil.

OMG yes yes.. i asked a how-to question here and nearly got my head bit off.:mad:

then and there i realized i made a mistake should have got HPT instead cos im a newbie and needed a lil getting started help...:wave:

[emarkay]

....it's just that EFILive doesn't have any good DOCUMENTATION to start with. I don't own an LSx vehicle but many of my customer's do - and they expect me to get results immediately - if I had a test vehicle I could "play with" for a few months then it would be better, but I really think we all deserve an owner's manual to start with...


AHEM. I take offense at this.

If you RTFM it says that no one can possibly write an all encompassing tuning tutorial, you need to learn this on your own. If you want EFILive to offer you a GM shop manual set sized manual to cover every possibility of combinations of every stock, modded and custom,,,,

Oh fuggit, why am I wasting my time with this.

The manuals are OWNERS MANUALS - you don't get a tutorial on drilling wood, metal, glass, and bone when you buy a drill, and you won't get a "hold my hand while I try this" guide from EFILive.

As Editor of the manuals, I challenge anyone to find a legit omission regarding OPERATION of the EFILive tools!

MRK

[mmorgan24]

Black02SS:

So what you are saying is that by not telling people how to do something, even basic stuff, EFILive is helping the people in the tuner market, but not the people that purchased the personal versions. As well, you are saying that secrets are good and information shouldn't be shared unless some people think it's ok to let it out. Interesting.

Lets say you purchased a fancy new piece of electronic gizmo today and got it home and unwrapped it, plugged it and and powered it up. After a few minutes you decided you wanted to see what it could do but all you got were menus after menus - you reach for the manual but find none there. So you fire up your computer which you somehow managed to figure out without the help from anyone over the last 15 years and find the companies website (thru searching google of course). You go to the forum and ask a few questions on how it can be done and most of the time very friendly and some clueless people tell you to just keep staring at it and eventually it will come to you. The people on the forum do not speak for the company, have little or tons of training and offer advice to everyone. Hmmm.. doesn't sound like a good support model to me.

Guess next time I'll ask more questions before I purchase it - like does it come with some type of instructions or am I on my own. I don't need an operation manual in this case just a where to go and process with this software manual. I read where someone was going to have some FAQs or Tutorials written for EFILive - no comments in 45 days. No draft either.

Thanks - I'm done.

[dc_justin]

Black02SS:

So what you are saying is that by not telling people how to do something, even basic stuff, EFILive is helping the people in the tuner market, but not the people that purchased the personal versions. As well, you are saying that secrets are good and information shouldn't be shared unless some people think it's ok to let it out. Interesting.

Lets say you purchased a fancy new piece of electronic gizmo today and got it home and unwrapped it, plugged it and and powered it up. After a few minutes you decided you wanted to see what it could do but all you got were menus after menus - you reach for the manual but find none there. So you fire up your computer which you somehow managed to figure out without the help from anyone over the last 15 years and find the companies website (thru searching google of course). You go to the forum and ask a few questions on how it can be done and most of the time very friendly and some clueless people tell you to just keep staring at it and eventually it will come to you. The people on the forum do not speak for the company, have little or tons of training and offer advice to everyone. Hmmm.. doesn't sound like a good support model to me.

Guess next time I'll ask more questions before I purchase it - like does it come with some type of instructions or am I on my own.

I don't mean to offend you with this post, so I hope that it does not come off that way, but it seems to me that a professional tuner such as yourself should have a much easier time figuring things out than the typical personal user (myself initially) that had to learn on their own...
A couple of hours of playing around with the software and I had everything loosely figured out and was out making logs and playing with my tune. :nixweiss:
You already (presumably) have the tools (knowledge) necessary to complete the task, it should just be a matter of spending a little bit of playing with the software, which there really is sufficient documentation to get you started.

[mmorgan24]

I think you are missing my point - I didn't say I couldn't figure it out, just that there should be more pointers - why do we (all) have to reinvent the wheel individually when I'm quite sure I don't want anything different than 90% of us.

[redhardsupra]

You know what? I'm glad I had zero documentation and most writeups were actually wrong (turn off PE, tweak IFR sort of advice). If I had 'push these 3 buttons, enter 5 here and 75 over there and you will have 50 more hp' sort of instructions, i'd go bonkers with it from day one. But I didn't. I was scared shitless, I scanned and watched, and try to make sense out of all these numbers coming at me. Took me a like 2 or 3 weeks before I built enough confidence to put it in SD mode, took me another few weeks before I made any changes. Soon enough I found a problem (miscalibrated MAF) and helpful people (Black02ss and TxHorns281), and poked at it long enough to come up with a whole new way to fix it.

Observe, identify, localize, understand, solve, automate, share.

I posted my tool which was quite radical at the time (everyone said there's no point of tuning with LTFT's above 4000rpm, I disproved that) and some argued, some dismissed it, others tried it and loved it. Chad even wrote his own (iterative VB) version of it to speed it up.

If you have a problem with no docs for newbs, write one. I have explained VE tuning few hundred times too many in my life to do it again. You see a problem you know how to solve? DO IT! If you are as experienced and flexible as your website suggests (nice Supra background btw ;) ) you should be more qualified to do it than we are. Give us a good example, lead the way.

I've written plenty, and it's been hard and time consuming, so I understand that it's not something that you just pick up and do on a whim, but if you truly consider this to be such a huge obstacle, then go ahead, post it up on your site, maybe it will even become a great advertising tool, generate you more clients.

[Black02SS]

Its not the fact that we don't want to help because that isn't the case. You can ask countless people how much I help them behind the scenes. I do this because I know what it was like when I got started. Do I tell them everything I know, of course not. Its the fact that those people show a willingness to learn. Here are some of the questions that you asked earlier are answered here below. This forum is the support of EFILive. Most of the questions you may have, have already been asked and answered.


basis of VE Tuning with their software
http://68.178.219.18/tutorials/AutoVE%20Tuning%20Tutorial.pdf


making timing changes with their software
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=2038&highlight=b5913


firming up the shifts and shift points with their software
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=1723&highlight=shift+firmness


what PE is and how it relates to tuning an LS1 with their software
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=2969&highlight=%22PE%2A%2A%22

[TAQuickness]

I would gladly contribute but I'm still at the learning stage trying to find information.
Thats why we ask questions.

Regards,

Neil.

I'll let you in on a little secret. I knew very little about tuning when I put together the AutoVE tutorial. I thought to my self, "Self, I better write down what I'm doing so if I blow my car up, I know what not to do again."

Turns out the method I used worked great and was repeatable. If it works and is repeatable, then you can publish it.

Before the AutoVE tutorial, there was a lot of questions centered around why tune the VE the way you do. Now there is a step-by-step tutorial (so good HPT copied it), that offers no explanation as to why, just how-to, and save one smart soul, no-one asks why. This means there are a lot of people tuning their car and are none the wiser.

[Tordne]

I haven't been bothered posting in these couple of threads before....

My feeling is this:

Tuning is a discipline, and EFILive is a tool.

Any tutorial that EFILive would/might produce "should" IMO be limited to the use and functionality of the "tool".

When anyone is going to alter the behaviour of their cars PCM they risk potentially serious damage as a result of their actions. It is therefore the responsibility of the tuner/amateur to take all precautions to ensure that they are adequately informed and knowledgeable about what they are undertaking.

I started out a year and a half ago (basically bought EFILive the day it was released). In that year and a half I have learnt a shit load by reading books, forum posts asking questions etc.

I think it is completely unrealistic for any materials to be produced that will turn anyone into a would be tuner in 5 minutes. And I think that is an unrealistic expectation on the part of the would be tuner.

Just my $0.02 and not a popular opinion. I just think some expect this to all be presented on a silver platter and not have to perform any leg work of their own.

Cheers,

[Black02SS]

I'll let you in on a little secret. I knew very little about tuning when I put together the AutoVE tutorial. I thought to my self, "Self, I better write down what I'm doing so if I blow my car up, I know what not to do again."

Turns out the method I used worked great and was repeatable. If it works and is repeatable, then you can publish it.

Before the AutoVE tutorial, there was a lot of questions centered around why tune the VE the way you do. Now there is a step-by-step tutorial (so good HPT copied it), that offers no explanation as to why, just how-to, and save one smart soul, no-one asks why. This means there are a lot of people tuning their car and are none the wiser.

I remember when you started that. Ah, the good ol' days. :)

[onfire]

"I just think some expect this to all be presented on a silver platter and not have to perform any leg work of their own."

In 50 years, when we're all dead, will it matter if something was "presented on a silver platter" or folks earned their bones through "leg work of their own".

I respect your position because I used to ne that way at the track. Newbies would come up..."how are you launching?,etc,etc..." wouldn't give much advice...some, not much.....then the importance of it all sank in....it's not important.....now they come up and I'll work with them the best I can...no secrets about my set-up either...if they want to know how much boost, TA angle, tire pressure...I don't care....they might learn something that will help them.

Too much emotional investment in this stuff...............

[Tordne]

I have nearly 800 posts and I sure haven't asked that many questions. That must mean that I have been helping people a great deal! As do several others here. People also have to want to help themselves as well.

[TAQuickness]

"I just think some expect this to all be presented on a silver platter and not have to perform any leg work of their own."

In 50 years, when we're all dead, will it matter if something was "presented on a silver platter" or folks earned their bones through "leg work of their own".

I respect your position because I used to ne that way at the track. Newbies would come up..."how are you launching?,etc,etc..." wouldn't give much advice...some, not much.....then the importance of it all sank in....it's not important.....now they come up and I'll work with them the best I can...no secrets about my set-up either...if they want to know how much boost, TA angle, tire pressure...I don't care....they might learn something that will help them.

Too much emotional investment in this stuff...............


I have to disagree with you here. How did you learn your track techniques? Did someone come around and tell you how to do it? Was there a silver platter with every answer to your every question? Or did you ask a few questions and develop your own style that worked best for you?

A conceptual manual/tutorial/class would be nice. It exists and there is no need to reinvent that wheel. At the same time, however, I encourage you, and everyone else, to keep notes of what you are learning. When you find a repeatable way to do something better, using the tools of your choice, document it, then publish it. Tutorials + 1

[TAQuickness]

I remember when you started that. Ah, the good ol' days. :)

That was fun. I really appreciate all the help with the screen shots.

[TAQuickness]

I've added a poll in the tutorial section. Please vote
http://www.forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=3001

[onfire]

"I have to disagree with you here. How did you learn your track techniques? Did someone come around and tell you how to do it? Was there a silver platter with every answer to your every question?"

That's actually the point I was trying to make....getting good info at the track (for me) was like pulling teeth....so I, in turn, felt like the others coming to me should equally suffer...earn their bones..."you're running 22psi in the rears...step it up 3psi at a time and see what happens"...when you should drop it to 14 and start experimenting there.....but I help as I can now even to the ricers. Guess I'm guilty of "silver plattering" lol.

But this has gotten wayyyyy off topic. There's been some good discussion, some heated discussion and some nonsense discussed......folks got to voice their opinions for and against.....hopefully, more tutorials will be forthcoming even if they only address the software (two great examples are the map and the blackbox tutorials).

I shut the thread down at LS1Tech since it turned into a EFI vs HPT mess.

Here's another direct customer marketing feedback data point for the owners....I purchased EFI LIVE back in the spring from Jesse Bubb (waitforme)....paid extra for the custom OS, etc. I reviewed both HPT and EFI for features. Since I'm a moderator at LS1tech, I could have bought the same features cheaper from HPT. HPT has better tutorials, HPT has a much better bin file.....so why did I pay more for EFI Live? .............USB.............that's the only advantage you had.....key word being "HAD"......which is why I started these threads...EFI is falling behind from a marketing perspective....I still love the software...can't argue with results...but keep an eye on your competitor and read some of the posts in these threads.


Cheers.

Tom d.

[TAQuickness]

On fire - back to the track techniques. The elders at the track, when you were a newbie, weren't necessarily being harsh or butt headded. They were teaching you to fish.

That being said, if/when more tutorials are published, I feel they should be around the concepts and not necessarily how to.

[Blacky]

HPT has a much better bin file
Ok, you've got my interest, what does that mean?


.....so why did I pay more for EFI Live? .............USB.............that's the only advantage you had.....key word being "HAD"......which is why I started these threads...EFI is falling behind from a marketing perspective....I still love the software...can't argue with results...but keep an eye on your competitor and read some of the posts in these threads.
Falling behind? Yes for a few months we have been leapfrogged after being in front for nearly 2 years, that's the nature of the development cycle. I think you'll find that there will be many more features in FlashScan V2 than other offerings. FlashScan V1 was our first cable introduced nearly 2 years ago and the "competition" has only just caught up with its feature set. The competition has had three attempts - each time making customers "pay" for the chance to get something that EFILive users have had from day one.

FlashScan V2 will have the same technical dominance that FlashScan V1 enjoyed. And the EFILive software provides (and will continue to provide) tuning depth and capability that goes way beyond what any other tool offers.

As for falling behind in the marketing department, we have not even started marketing EFILive - yet!!!! EFILive product sells itself with little or no marketing. Currently our focus is on providing technically superior tools, not marketing hype. However, the marketing machine is cranking up and you will see a lot more about EFILive in the next 12 months.

We also need to step up the quality and number of tutorials available for EFILive, there is no argument about that.:cheers:

Regards
Paul

[neil]

Great to hear your comments on this discussion Paul.
Thanks.

Neil.

[bink]

However, the marketing machine is cranking up and you will see a lot more about EFILive in the next 12 months.


Hehehe......I've oftened wondered when you guys were going to turn the dog loose (and I mean "dog" as a complement...as in "this Big Dog can hunt"). Methodical you are !! :mrgreen:

:cheers:
joel

[TAQuickness]

HPT has a much better bin file.....


Ok, you've got my interest, what does that mean?

I think he left "repository" off the end. At either rate, we can raid the *.bin's at will.

[onfire]

I think he left "repository" off the end. At either rate, we can raid the *.bin's at will.


Exactly.:)

[onfire]

Ok, you've got my interest, what does that mean?


Falling behind? Yes for a few months we have been leapfrogged after being in front for nearly 2 years, that's the nature of the development cycle. I think you'll find that there will be many more features in FlashScan V2 than other offerings. FlashScan V1 was our first cable introduced nearly 2 years ago and the "competition" has only just caught up with its feature set. The competition has had three attempts - each time making customers "pay" for the chance to get something that EFILive users have had from day one.

FlashScan V2 will have the same technical dominance that FlashScan V1 enjoyed. And the EFILive software provides (and will continue to provide) tuning depth and capability that goes way beyond what any other tool offers.

As for falling behind in the marketing department, we have not even started marketing EFILive - yet!!!! EFILive product sells itself with little or no marketing. Currently our focus is on providing technically superior tools, not marketing hype. However, the marketing machine is cranking up and you will see a lot more about EFILive in the next 12 months.

We also need to step up the quality and number of tutorials available for EFILive, there is no argument about that.:cheers:

Regards
Paul

I'm sure V2 will be awesome when it is released. Can't wait to upgrade. Don't take my keyboard comments in a negative way. I bought it once and would buy it again. :cheers: Just wanted to point out a few areas (tutorials) that might help with all of the repetitive questions (And might eventually help me decide to go COS SD since I bought the option but have seen too many issues raised about implementation). With some of the emotions I've stirred up in other posters, it would be much easier to post nothing and be quiet.......hopefully, time will calm the storm.:beer:

[joecar]

No, don't say nothing...

if Galileo had said nothing, mankind wouldn't have kicked the moon, and quite surely there would be no engineering/science today...

[TAQuickness]

I've added another poll in the tutorial section. New poll covers turotial subject matter. Please vote