Simple yes or no...would you like a tuning tutorial for EFI Live?

[onfire]

Hope this works as I've never posted a poll before.

Just a simple yes or no poll.

[Bruce Melton]

Hope this works as I've never posted a poll before.

Just a simple yes or no poll.

But---

[Tordne]

I haven't been bothered posting in these couple of threads before....

My feeling is this:

Tuning is a discipline, and EFILive is a tool.

Any tutorial that EFILive would/might produce "should" IMO be limited to the use and functionality of the "tool".

When anyone is going to alter the behaviour of their cars PCM they risk potentially serious damage as a result of their actions. It is therefore the responsibility of the tuner/amateur to take all precautions to ensure that they are adequately informed and knowledgeable about what they are undertaking.

I started out a year and a half ago (basically bought EFILive the day it was released). In that year and a half I have learnt a shit load by reading books, forum posts asking questions etc.

I think it is completely unrealistic for any materials to be produced that will turn anyone into a would be tuner in 5 minutes. And I think that is an unrealistic expectation on the part of the would be tuner.

Just my $0.02 and not a popular opinion. I just think some expect this to all be presented on a silver platter and not have to perform any leg work of their own.

Cheers,

[Xtnct00WS6]

Being new at this, it makes me A LOT more comfortable knowing that there's information/advice/tips out there about the product I'm about to pay a lot of money for. If two software packages are equal and one has more documentation/tips/tutorials, guess which one people will buy! If the people that tune for a living don't want to put out trade secrets or things they've learned along the way, fine. They don't have to.

[mnotx]

I believe this has and will continue to take care of itself. There are many posted tutorials on this forum for various tuning processes. I have gone from ignorant novice to fairly knowedgeable this past year just from reading this forum. I am sure the tutorials will continue as more and more people discover EFILive.

Given the variables involved, it would be very risky for EFILive to try to establish a safe tuning tutorial for the masses. They would end up being blamed for everything that didn't turn out as expected, even though they do not have control of how it was used.

I think what we have now works well. Ask a question and several of the forum's seasoned tuners will jump in there with suggestions or solutions.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Tordne]

You will find that pretty much all the information you need is here, cause it is the same information all of us needed when we started out. It just doesn't start "Once upon a time..."

[dfe1]

Since no one has answered correctly yet-- my response is yes or no.

[Tordne]

So that would be a maybe then :)

[5.3]

man who said no??? ...why would you not like the newbies to get real step by step how-to info..

its very simple no help no sales if you dont show us how to tune then we the new and potential customer will go elsewhere.

[onfire]

A NO vote generally will mean:

1. I make a living by tuning and don't want to dilute my market.

2. I've "earned my bones" by hard work/trial and error....you should earn yours.

3. I'm selfish.

4. I have a legitimate reason for not wanting additional information about tuning shared with the masses.

5. I'm HPT and we are greatly increasing our market share by increasing our tutorials and technology. Hopefully, our competition will stick their head in the sand.

[joecar]

I don't think it's a matter of wanting or not wanting to do it...
it's a matter of lack of manpower (who's going to do it...?).

[Tordne]

I think more important than knowing "how", is knowing "why" you make a change.

Having a guide that has perhaps 20 steps that someone brainlessly follows doesn't really help anyone. There are probably very few things that will work out the same on every persons combo.

If a person just want to get a car tuned they may as well just take it to a shop, hand over the money and be done with it.

People need to understand what effect the change they are making might have on other parts of their tune.

Most people don't buy a hammer and make their first project building a house. People would be well advised to spend a good deal of time looking at the stickys in the section of this and other forums and get an appreciation for what other people have done, both good and bad.

[joecar]

I think more important than knowing "how", is knowing "why" you make a change.

Having a guide that has perhaps 20 steps that someone brainlessly follows doesn't really help anyone. There are probably very few things that will work out the same on every persons combo.

If a person just want to get a car tuned they may as well just take it to a shop, hand over the money and be done with it.

People need to understand what effect the change they are making might have on other parts of their tune.

Most people don't buy a hammer and make their first project building a house. People would be well advised to spend a good deal of time looking at the stickys in the section of this and other forums and get an appreciation for what other people have done, both good and bad.Yes, I agree with this.

[neil]

I don’t think people are looking for 20 brainless steps to tune an engine.
Most people like myself have probably scoured the forums and read all the information they could find.
The information we are after is more like "what are the basic procedures to follow in some logical format" and if we have problems with this process we can ask the forums for help.
Why do we need to reinvent the wheel each time? It's just crazy.
It would probably take quite a load off you guys.

Regards,

Neil.

[Kris]

I agree with the reasons of some of the others who said no. Tuning is about knowing why a change has a certain reaction... which really cannot be explained through a tutorial... it is a trial and error ordeal. The totorial can tell you to raise up the Desired Airflow values... but until you understand what happened when you changed them... you really haven't learned anything.

There is no tutorial for OS 5, did that stop me and some others from installing it and playing with the new TPvsRPM table? Nope. Do I have a better understanding of what the table does because I had to actually sit down on my own and figure it out. I would've learned nothing if I had just sat down and read a tutorial which told me step-by-step to set up a map, populate it with X, X, and X pids, and then copy/paste&multiply.

There is a plethora of information available already on the internet to get you started on tuning... the simple fact in the end though is that some people have the ability to tune... and others just simply do not. Just like everything else in life.

I personally would rather see the guys at EFI Live utilize their resources to further develop the software and hardware interfaces to provide a more powerful TOOL, than to spend those resources teaching every shadetree-tuner how to make their car idle.

[Xtnct00WS6]

I can’t believe how many people don’t want tutorials.

Any halfway decent tutorial will describe why they're changing what they are. I don't see that as a good reason not to do anything in the first place. I would rather have something rather than nothing.

I agree that the "why" is as important, if not more important than the "how", but who says the "why" can't be included in the tutorial?

To you guys that tune for a living, sorry but software like this is made to make the job of tuning easy. Eventually it’ll be easy enough that a half brain monkey can do it. Your trade secrets will be coded into the push of a button in future releases.

[5.3]

I think more important than knowing "how", is knowing "why" you make a change.

Having a guide that has perhaps 20 steps that someone brainlessly follows doesn't really help anyone. There are probably very few things that will work out the same on every persons combo.

.

you still dont get it:bawl: .. you have to know "how" first then the "why" would be alot easyer to understand......

hey man i sent ya my radix truck tune its still not downloadable..:rockon:

[Tordne]

hey man i sent ya my radix truck tune its still not downloadable..:rockon:

Really? I'm sure I added it, it was a modified tune wasn't it, and FI tune. Are you sure it isn't this one http://www.holdencrazy.com/EFILive/bins/modified/Chevrolet/00000014.tun? the description is Radix Supecharger.

[Tordne]

To you guys that tune for a living, sorry but software like this is made to make the job of tuning easy. Eventually it’ll be easy enough that a half brain monkey can do it. Your trade secrets will be coded into the push of a button in future releases.

God I hope not that will take half the fun of it away. Actually, a half brain monkey already is - me :muahaha:

[TAQuickness]

I can’t believe how many people don’t want tutorials.

Any halfway decent tutorial will describe why they're changing what they are. I don't see that as a good reason not to do anything in the first place. I would rather have something rather than nothing.

I agree that the "why" is as important, if not more important than the "how", but who says the "why" can't be included in the tutorial?

To you guys that tune for a living, sorry but software like this is made to make the job of tuning easy. Eventually it’ll be easy enough that a half brain monkey can do it. Your trade secrets will be coded into the push of a button in future releases.


It made tuning extremely easy. Imagine if you knew how to tune (everything about it) and all you had to figure out was how to hex edit the code, after you figured out how to get it out of the PCM?

[5.3]

Really? I'm sure I added it, it was a modified tune wasn't it, and FI tune. Are you sure it isn't this one http://www.holdencrazy.com/EFILive/bins/modified/Chevrolet/00000014.tun? the description is Radix Supecharger.

Tordne thanks:rockon: for a great website hope more people would share there tunes thou. its a big big help to efilive newbies too.:rockon:

about my tune its the one under 05 GMC Sierra .. i dont see the download icon.

[Tordne]

Arh. Bugger, didn't see that. I put the file in the wrong directory for the database to pick it up :) Thanks for noticing.

Bet you thought that the tune was too good ad I was keeping it back and going to sell it to people LOL

Started out a bit slow. Lot of people said they wanted it, but no one fronted up. Starting to get a few modified tunes now - all you others KEEP THEM COMING :)

Cheers,

[TAQuickness]

just as soon as I get my laptop back, I'll be sure to send some your way

[Kris]

I can’t believe how many people don’t want tutorials.

It's not that most of these people don't want tutorials... the more information that is out there, the better it is for everyone.

However, I do believe the tutorials should be done by an independent party. EFILive is in the business of developing automotive tuning hardware & software. They are not in the business of teaching people how to tune.

[5.3]

cheers mate..

[Xtnct00WS6]

God I hope not that will take half the fun of it away. Actually, a half brain monkey already is - me :muahaha:

I still have my fingers crossed that it'll be that easy with V2 :) I should have my new laptop in a few days and can't wait to order the new EFI Live!

I guess I kinda have my blinders on in regards to tutorials. I just want more tutorials and as long as the information is good, it doesn't matter what the source is. The bigger picture is that it's good for sales to have more information published about how to use thier product.

[Tordne]

V2 will make flashing/reading a PCM possible without a laptop, and to black box log for extended durations to a memory card. But the tuning experience will be the same.

Apparently they may integrate some stuff like diff ration changes etc. at some point in the future. But I suspect it will take significant effort from Paul/Ross to get V2 out with the currently published specifications and functionality :)

As for tutorials. Perhaps the best thing that we can do right now is create a sticky that someone can update with some of the really good/common threads that do exist here. I know that sometimes they are hard to find with even the most logical search criteria. But also feel free to ask a question in lieu of not being able to find something and there are people here that are happy to help. I don't think I've ever seen a post like on LS1TECH tat is a response like "search is your friend dude!" ;)

[joecar]

It made tuning extremely easy. Imagine if you knew how to tune (everything about it) and all you had to figure out was how to hex edit the code, after you figured out how to get it out of the PCM?
That would be the easy part. :D

[Garry]

My $.02 ...

- due to liability reasons, even with a proper disclaimer, I figure EFILive as developer of the software is probably a bad (legal) "person" to officially offer the tutorial. Link to it, yes, maybe even endorse it, but not be the publisher

- I do believe that contrary to some less complex things (like, e.g., computers [yeah, right, less complex *gg*]), an "out of the box perfect tune" via HowTo/Tutorial will not work. OK, maybe if you do one for a certain car, model year, and setup, another car with more or less identical data might end up with a good tune via HowTo, but change anything mayor, like Cam or the likes, and there will most likely be things you can't possibly think off without actually seeing any logged data

So, what to do? Nothing?

Well, no, at least not IMHO ...

Apart from the good manual about the EFILive software, it definitely would be nice to put a manual/book together on how to use EFILive in tuning your car - that includes simple steps on what to do, and in which sequence, to get your first basic tune done. Then go in deeper, with explainations on what to do and why (as mentioned in this thread before). SOme of the knowledgable people here could add some insight about the deeper workings of all the figures, and how they come together to make the motor run smoothly or sh*tty, and how to firgure out WTF you did wrong on that last tune ;)

From reading this forum over the last couple of weeks, I must say there is a great wealth of information here - but finding what you need, especially if you're a newby to the area of tuning, is pretty hard. And it leads to questions being asked over and over again. Some out of lazyness, some because the folks just don't know what to actually look for, therefore not being able to find it with the search function ...

So, what does that lead up to?

Well, I guess something like a "Tunipedia" or "Wikitunia" or something :) Ringram already started out a document, if folks could add knowledge to it instead of answering the questions in the forum (but of course point the people asking towards the Wiki), we'd end up with a great source of knowledge.

Will this hurt professional tuners?

Possibly - but then, most folks who are going to go through all the trouble of reading how-tos, getting the professional software to actually do the tune themselves, etc. most likely would not go to a tuner. As someone else here mentioned - they might instead go do another software instead that offers "easy" tutorials.

Hm ... guess I'm up to something like $0.04 or $0.05 already, but hey ...

[Tordne]

Great post Garry...

I think perhaps a WIKI is a good idea. And I can probably host it on my server with the tune repository if this is seen as a good start.

[Garry]

P.S. - here's the current state, mainly RIngram's document ported to the wiki ... can be moved to its own domain ...

The Wiki-information could be specifically published under some open licence, like Creative Commons or the likes ...

Edit: should add the Link (http://fbodyknowledge.org/wiki/index.php/Tuning_with_EFILive) ;)

[TAQuickness]

I've added a poll in the tutorial section. Please vote
http://www.forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=3001

[dfe1]

So that would be a maybe then :) No, that would be I smell a rat. Some posters are pushing a bit too hard for a tutorial for me to believe that's all they want. I think there are some private agendas at work here. When you buy tuning software, you get the program and a cable and a ton of great information. You do not get, nor are you entitled to a mommy and daddy to hold your hand and teach you all the ins and outs of tuning. In fact, this forum is a lot better resource than any tutorial. I can't count the number of times people have posted questions and received the specific answers they needed to solve their problems. How many times have you seen one offer to look at another's data log or send a revised calibration file? You won't get that out of a tutorial. Granted, a comprehensive tutorial will ramp up the learning curve, but I get the distinct feeling that other motivations are at work here. Frankly, if I were a moderator, I would have shut this and similar threads down long ago.

[ringram]

Content could be taken and sold or users could use it, blow their car up and point fingers.
I agree it should be independant and open source with a strong disclaimer.
Still I believe in an open approach. So would be happy to help out at times with some more pics and content.

[onfire]

No, that would be I smell a rat. Some posters are pushing a bit too hard for a tutorial for me to believe that's all they want. I think there are some private agendas at work here. When you buy tuning software, you get the program and a cable and a ton of great information. You do not get, nor are you entitled to a mommy and daddy to hold your hand and teach you all the ins and outs of tuning. In fact, this forum is a lot better resource than any tutorial. I can't count the number of times people have posted questions and received the specific answers they needed to solve their problems. How many times have you seen one offer to look at another's data log or send a revised calibration file? You won't get that out of a tutorial. Granted, a comprehensive tutorial will ramp up the learning curve, but I get the distinct feeling that other motivations are at work here. Frankly, if I were a moderator, I would have shut this and similar threads down long ago.


What kind of proof do you need to confirm I'm a single user that bought the program from Jesse Bubb in the spring? Go to LS1tech and run a search on my name "onfire"...you'll find I've been a moderator since 2001 and have not been a vendor for anything.

Call jesse and confirm my purchase if you want to....just don't start factless rumors based on how you smell.;)

[dfe1]

What kind of proof do you need to confirm I'm a single user that bought the program from Jesse Bubb in the spring? Go to LS1tech and run a search on my name "onfire"...you'll find I've been a moderator since 2001 and have not been a vendor for anything.

Call jesse and confirm my purchase if you want to....just don't start factless rumors based on how you smell.;)

I'm not starting any rumors, factless (which is redundant) or otherwise, and I never mentioned anyone by name, so why do you have your bowels in such an uproar? It's one thing to ask for something, it's another to whine and moan ad nauseum. I also never implied that anyone was trying to sell anything. However, I've seen countless posts on other forums by people who were just trying to start a controversy, or attempting to make a product look bad so people would have reservations about buying it. You've asked about tutorials, you've been answered several times and you keep asking. Call me cynical, but that raises a flag in my opinion. There are plenty of knowledgeable people on this forum who have and will continue to contribute excellent information. If you honestly want a tutorial so badly, why don't YOU volunteer to put one together. All you have to do is assemble the information that's sent to you, then post it for review by people with tuning experience. You could also review it and request additional information for topics you feel weren't covered in sufficient detail.

[bink]

Questions???

Are you guys talking about a comprehensive tuning tutorial or a cookbook type tutorial?

A comprehensive tutorial would be a massive work.

As for cookbook....well, it's cookbook! There are so many parameters!

I'm not knocking the idea I just wonder if you guys really realise the amount of tuning info you harbor in your own cortex?? In order to understand tuning there is a whole lot of 4 cycle knowledge in there also.

Sincerely, No flames......but I think maybe you guys don't appreciate the cumulative wealth of knowledge here.

My .02

Cheers,
joel

[onfire]

"I'm not starting any rumors, factless (which is redundant) or otherwise, and I never mentioned anyone by name, so why do you have your bowels in such an uproar?."

[
Because YOU posted this in a thread that I started:

No, that would be I smell a rat. Some posters are pushing a bit too hard for a tutorial for me to believe that's all they want. I think there are some private agendas at work here.

"I get the distinct feeling that other motivations are at work here."

In the best light those comments are factless "stirring the pot" rumors.

If that's all the constructive criticism that you can contribute, there's a great movie with Mel Gibson called Conspiracy Theory that you would enjoy.

It's cool if you disagree with adding tutorials...others have said they disagree......I just don't like, and will continue to defend against, comments that infer wrong doing. That's not the case.

If you read the threads in the other tutorial thread....Blacky is on board with additional tutorials...

[onfire]

BTW, I'm impressed with the wealth of knowledge that is shared here...a lot of hard work is given up freely.

[ringram]

Hey there is a wiki Garry setup. Im sure he would be happy to copy the code to other to host as well. A single point would be best.

Im sure even onfire can contribute.

Why dont we all build on that!?

[mnotx]

Just to clarify my statement, I am not against tutorials. I was against pressing the EFILive team to write it. I think putting together tutorials from the members of this forum is the best approach. Liabilities aside, it is too much work for the guys already being pressured to complete other projects.

[onfire]

Hey there is a wiki Garry setup. Im sure he would be happy to copy the code to other to host as well. A single point would be best.

Im sure even onfire can contribute.

Why dont we all build on that!?


I'll do a write-up on RPM vs PE tuning. I spent 6 hours strapped to a dynojet. Brought the power up to 700rwhp......does the write-up need to be in any special format?:cheers:

[Garry]

plain ascii to start of with would be fine - if you have gfx to go with it just insert some tags so that when reformatting it can be put at the right place ...

[dfe1]

Because YOU posted this in a thread that I started:
Let me guess, you were abused as a child and have been a victim of misunderstanding as an adult, so anyone who disagrees with your opinion is actually attacking your honesty and integrity and doesn't understand that all you're trying to do is improve everyone's lot in life and bring about world peace. Or did I simply misunderstand thatif I post a dissenting opinion in thread that YOU started, that I am in fact attacking you? Does the word paranoid have any particular meaning to you?


"I get the distinct feeling that other motivations are at work here."

In the best light those comments are factless "stirring the pot" rumors.

That would be in the worst of light. In any other type of light, those comments represent an opinion and were expressed as such. How do you interpret a statement that begins with "I get the distinct feeling" as an effort to start a rumor?


If that's all the constructive criticism that you can contribute, there's a great movie with Mel Gibson called Conspiracy Theory that you would enjoy.

I've seen the movie, and frankly didn't enjoy it-- too many people with ulterior motives.


It's cool if you disagree with adding tutorials...others have said they disagree......I just don't like, and will continue to defend against, comments that infer wrong doing. That's not the case. If you read the threads in the other tutorial thread....Blacky is on board with additional tutorials...
Actually, I'm in favor of adding tutorials, and of course Blacky is on board. He's dedicated a tremendous amount of time making EFILive the best tuning software in the world and he's obviously going to be in favor of anything that will be helpful in educating people how to use it. No question, more detailed tutorials would be very helpful, even to experienced tuners. What I have a problem with is the endless whining about it. Your questions have been answered multiple times, members of this forum are working on assembling information and they're making progress. Have you contributed anything? I notice you conveniently didn't address my suggestion that you participate. I know, I know, no one understands......

[Garry]

OK, I don't know if it's as hot in Georgia or where ever else you folks are at as it is here in Germany at the moment, but I think it's time to cool down a bit ... it seems like there is (mostly) an agreement that some kind of extended docs on tuning, to whatever detail, is needed or at least desirable ... so, let's just set up the basis, maybe start off by scraping together information from the forum, and just work from there...

[onfire]

OK, I don't know if it's as hot in Georgia or where ever else you folks are at as it is here in Germany at the moment, but I think it's time to cool down a bit ... it seems like there is (mostly) an agreement that some kind of extended docs on tuning, to whatever detail, is needed or at least desirable ... so, let's just set up the basis, maybe start off by scraping together information from the forum, and just work from there...

I agree.:cheers:

I'll have the rpm vs pe ready this weekend.

[Xtnct00WS6]

I'll do a write-up on RPM vs PE tuning. I spent 6 hours strapped to a dynojet. Brought the power up to 700rwhp......does the write-up need to be in any special format?:cheers:

Please include pics (screenshots) and "why" you changed the things you did :)

[joecar]

We'll all be happy to proofread for you. :D

[ringram]

BEST THING WITH ALL TUTORIALS IS TO POST THEM ON THE WIKI

Because one and all, it means ANYONE can review and alter it. Im sure Garry will take frequent backups to make sure it doesnt get trashed. Basically its an online wysiwyg editor for html. Very easy to use even if you just type plain text in. Others with more experience can format. Hell email me at efilive.eu and Ill even sort out the graphics for you.

Then nobody is dependant on anyone else. Just grab a section throw your stuff in, or add to others sections and soon we will have one tutorial to rule them all.

Even if you know feck all, put the section headings in and a description of what you want to see in the section and why, soon others will come and expand on it.

Think global and act local!

The tutorial link is http://fbodyknowledge.org/wiki/index.php/Tuning_with_EFILive post away.

[TAQuickness]

Once your PE vs RPM tutorial is proof read and the result have been determined to be repeatable, you can send the tutorial to Paul or Ross for publishing. I would caution you to be selective about those you choose to proof read for you. There is not much you can do to protect your efforts until a copyright is issued.

[onfire]

Once your PE vs RPM tutorial is proof read and the result have been determined to be repeatable, you can send the tutorial to Paul or Ross for publishing. I would caution you to be selective about those you choose to proof read for you. There is not much you can do to protect your efforts until a copyright is issued.

I'm open to all suggestions. What's best for the group works for me.

I'll send it to whoever wants to proof it. I've never used a "wiki" but it sounds like a great info depository.:beer:

[5.3]

think it should be an EFILIVE specific step by step tutorial ...benifits???1-no one can copy it, 2- alot less work and it will generate alot more sales cos thats the first thing a newbie looks for before buying the software 3- easyer to understand what you are trying to explain....

[TAQuickness]

think it should be an EFILIVE specific step by step tutorial ...benifits???1-no one can copy it, 2- alot less work and it will generate alot more sales cos thats the first thing a newbie looks for before buying the software 3- easyer to understand what you are trying to explain....

No offense, but the BS flag is up. The AutoVE tutorial was Live specific and not 2 weeks later it had all the live references changed to HPT.

[5.3]

yeh it sucks but its the only way .. tutorials should be a step by step guide in plain english of just the basics like a how to remove torque managment and so on.. then the stage 2 and so on.

[TAQuickness]

I've added another poll in the tutorial section. New poll covers turotial subject matter. Please vote