2007 Dodge Cummins Swap - OBD & EFI Live Communications / TIPM

[PDXFactory]

Hi all,

I've been perusing the forums here, and I have a question that maybe someone here can help answer.

I'm in the process of swapping a 2007 Dodge Cummins 5.9L into a 1970 Ford F250. I'm planning to do a full drivetrain swap, including the 48RE and transfer case. I've run into a question I haven't really found an answer to (not many people swapping the 06-07 CR's?). I've been thinning the factory wire harness, and I'm curious if it is possible for the OBD port to work without the TIPM...or do I need to keep it? Can EFI Live talk directly to the Cummins ECM?

I ask because I've been looking through wiring and CAN diagrams, and it seems that the CAN C-diagnostic is contained/comes from the TIPM module. I'm sure the Cummins ECM will run the engine without the TIPM, but would I be able to talk to it with EFI Live? Would I be able to pull diagnostic trouble codes without TIPM?

This may be a silly conversation - I'm just trying to get rid of the TIPM since it serves almost no purposes in my build. It's just a very large box that I have to fit somewhere. I know the Painless harness for earlier years has an OBD port without the TIPM, but the diagrams for CAN system seem...different.

I've heard answers in both directions, but I'm not convinced that I've gotten a solid answer yet. Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[Twistedshafts]

I would get a stand-alone ECM.

[PDXFactory]

I would get a stand-alone ECM.

Can you expand on that? Is there a different ECM from Cummins that operates stand alone? Would it still have diagnostic functions? (Seems like I'd also need a stand alone transmission controller as well if I go down that road...?)

Thanks!

[Twistedshafts]

There are companies that make ECMs for Cummins. It would be expensive. Also running a stand-alone TCM is what I have and is easy to do.
If you have the complete wiring harness for the engine and transmission you should be able to make everything work with the stock PCM. You would have to install your own fuse box and relay circuits of course. Cummins PCMs are simple. You need constant power and ground. Then you need a key switch signal to tell the PCM it can run. Once you crank the starter it will start. Once the key switch signal is cut it will shut off. You should have any codes as long as all your engine sensors are hooked up. If you remove the TTVA on the trans the engine will go into limp mode. It attempts to cut power to protect the trans. I don't think the TIPM will cause you any issues. You just need to get an OBD2 connector and wire into the Cummins PCM. Also, you will need to put power and ground to the OBD2. Shouldn't be too hard. Running gauges might be another issue. Could run a monitor of some sort, or a race gauge cluster.

[PDXFactory]

Thanks @Twistedshafts - I appreciate the detail! I'm looking to stick with the factory Cummins/Dodge ECM since I have the entire truck and wiring harness (technically, I think 06/07 has no PCM, correct? the ECM controls the full powertrain unlike earlier years). If I can run everything and still have diagnostic capability that would be ideal.

This is where my confusion starts - the 06/07 DLC (Data Link Connector / OBD port) pin outs show pin 6 and 14 as the CAN C Diagnostic +/-, which comes from the TIPM and appears to be separate from the CAN C BUS +/- in the Engine Control C1 (60 pin) connector. I assume they talk to each other through the TIPM? If the EFI Live tool is connected directly to the CAN C BUS on the ECM, will I still see the DTC's in the case of a sensor failure?

In the end, I know I won't have a check engine light, but that's probably OK. As I mentioned, this is going into a 1970 Ford F250, so the gauges will generally be 'old school'. I still want to retain the ability to connect to the DLC and scan the system for any fault codes though. If this isn't possible on the 06/07 trucks and I have to retain the TIPM to do this, then I will. It's just not a very clean swap (and probably why 97% of the people out there seem to be swapping earlier CR engines...or 12V!).

Thanks again! I have a lot to learn here, and apologies if any of my questions seem basic!

[PDXFactory]

I checked with the moderators, and it looks like my posts from a few days ago were released and I should be able to post again. If anyone has experience plugging the EFI Live directly into an 06/07 ECM and eliminating the TIPM, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks!

[comnrailpwr]

Have built several standalone setups using late 5.9 ECM. It's not hard to do. The only thing you need is the engine harness and DCM. All the swaps I have done are manual swaps or standalone valve body trucks but that should be all you need as well for the 48RE control. There is no separate PCM as you stated. You will need the trans harness. Regardless the only thing that it needs to run and communicate is power, ground, 12 volts on the ignition run wire, can+ and can- get wired directly to an OBD2 port.. then you'll just have to lengthen the throttle pedal wires to get in the cab. I don't have the ECM pinout in front of me but if you have it should be pretty self-explanatory to figure out. The tipm was just a gateway for the communications bus. It split off there and went to other places. It's absolutely not necessary.

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[PDXFactory]

Have built several standalone setups using late 5.9 ECM. It's not hard to do. The only thing you need is the engine harness and DCM. All the swaps I have done are manual swaps or standalone valve body trucks but that should be all you need as well for the 48RE control. There is no separate PCM as you stated. You will need the trans harness. Regardless the only thing that it needs to run and communicate is power, ground, 12 volts on the ignition run wire, can+ and can- get wired directly to an OBD2 port.. then you'll just have to lengthen the throttle pedal wires to get in the cab. I don't have the ECM pinout in front of me but if you have it should be pretty self-explanatory to figure out. The tipm was just a gateway for the communications bus. It split off there and went to other places. It's absolutely not necessary.

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Man comnrailpwr, you just made my day! I was assuming this was the case, but didn't want to start tearing apart the harness only to find out later that it wouldn't work. I'm not sure I've had a comment from someone who has actually done it to this point, so I appreciate your response! I have the Deutsch tools and can make or repin the harness. First I need to figure out what is stopping me from removing the SKIM/anti-theft system. (Separate thread here, but I'm not having luck getting the truck to run without the SKIM module connected - not sure if this is an ECM issue or ? ECM still shows as disabled in the tune, but anti-theft takes over and won't even let the engine crank without the module plugged in.) I'm sure I'll figure it out. Just side tracked with other projects at the moment...

Thanks again!

[comnrailpwr]

I assume you are using a CMB ECM? If so then literally all you need is a power to the ECM, ground to the ECM, 12v on ignition run and then then crank the motor over and it will start. I don't have any familiarity with standalone setups with any 6.7 Cummins controller. I would advise using the 5.9 CMB Cummins controller if you are not. The end result will be better for tunability. If you are not doing your own tuning then you need a file with zero vin restrictions and you have to flash the file in after the security is disabled. Engine harness doesn't even have anywhere for the anti-theft system to plug into so I can only assume you are using the Dodge dash harness and stuff like that. If that's the case then the ignition run / start 12v wire is being broken somewhere through the anti-theft I would say. The stand alone set up I do only use is the engine harness. Starter gets put on a push button or wired into a key switch. Put 12 volt and ground on the ECM black and red wires. Put 12 volts from the key switch or toggle switch to the ignition run wire. Run the pedal and calm wires in the cab to their respective spots. Turn off security in the tune and we are off to the races after a flash. Doesn't even need a VIN number put in the tune. All the files I do are manual files so on an auto file you will need to prove to the ECM that it's in park or neutral before it will crank. That were will be spelled out in the ECM pin out.

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[PDXFactory]

Yes, I'm using the standard 2007 CM849B ECM. I also have a copy of the 2007 service manual with all of the pin outs. I've just been trying to thin down the harness and eliminate the SKIM module before I pull the engine out of the donor truck. I'm not sure exactly where all of the anti theft settings reside, but some part of the system is not getting reprogrammed when I flash in the new tune (or it is missing since I have removed some wiring already). I've been wondering if it has to do with the various locations the VIN is stored in the factory Dodge TIPM or other components - maybe if I eliminate everything other than the simplified wiring you mention, the problem will solve itself.

I'm doing my own tuning with the Flashscan V3, so in theory it sounds like all of this should work no problem! My goal was to have the engine running in the revised format before I actually pull it from the donor. I was hesitant to remove the TIPM without confirming that it wasn't necessary. Sounds like I need to move forward with the TIPM removal and start repinning the harness.

DTC's don't control anything, do they? I'm assuming they are just reporting out problems, and have no control over anything (i.e. anti theft). I haven't changed any of them at this stage. (I have sure run across a lot of mis-information in the process of learning more about the Dodge/Cummins system!)

I sincerely appreciate your insight!

[comnrailpwr]

You are correct. DTCs do not control anything. They are just for reporting problems. You are also correct that once you thin the system down to just the engine harness then your anti-theft issue will solve itself. Are you planning on using any of the other truck harness in your swap other than the engine and transmission?

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[PDXFactory]

I only planned to use the engine and transmission harness. I do believe I will need to find a way to simulate the vehicle speed sensor as I think that is generated from the rear axle / ABS system rather than directly in the automatic transmission. I've essentially removed all of the additional wiring from the dash side of the truck already, and much of the additional engine compartment / body side wiring that was unneeded.

My current plan is to get the engine, transmission and transfer case swapped into the 1970 F250 and get it running and driving. The truck itself is a project for sure, so that's just step one...but would be a great first step! I am contemplating swapping the newer Dodge axles over as well, which would give me a wheel speed sensor that could be converted into an appropriate VSS signal to the ECM.

The truck I'm working on was one of my dads first 'new' vehicles that he handed down to me. It currently has a mid 70s smog era 460 in it that is anemic and gets about 7mpg, so the Cummins should make it a really useable truck!

Again, I really appreciate the help!