VIN Lock gripes.....

[GMPX]

Alot of people are enquiring about the licensing arrangements the Tuning side of EFILive will offer.
I am not about to announce that here as we have not decided yet, but I do want to give you all something to think about.

As a rough figure one of the other unlimited tuning packages out there will run you up near 10K for the whole deal, so many people think this is unfair, I personally do not, here's why.

The person that purchases an unlimited version probably owns a workshop that sees say 50 - 100 cars per year getting the PCM's tuned, not to mention any mail order tunes they may offer.
Now this company happens to be really cheap, only $200 per tune, so worst case, 50 cars x $200 = $10,000, there is the purchase price back in one year. Reality is no-one is that cheap so probably halve that time.

Now, to develop that product there has been countless hours of work put in with the software, hardware (no simple 2 transistor circuits here folks!!), testing, R&D etc. If somebody can justify to me why you would then sell that product for $400 or so dollars with unlimited usage to someone who will make more profit than you in one day I am listening.

Do you think large corporations only buy one copy of the software to use on 100's of PC's??.

People need to understand the LS1 PCM is a rather different beast to the ECM's of the 80's and early 90's that had simple table structures, if they
were flash based the hardware to connect to a PC was very simple too, that's why many freeware and DIY tuning solutions were developed, who remembers the DIY_EFI List?.

Please feel free to flame me. I will once again state we have not finalised our license structure so comments are welcome.

[bink]

I don't think people realize the limited market size of LS1 "Tuner/Editor" users. It is impossible to get economies of scale in a limited- end- user market.
I'm a dentist. We, as dentists, are a small limited market. A known number, identifiable, worldwide. There is only ONE way to reduce costs, substantially, of the specialty products we buy - reduce quality. We see this constantly.
Individuals os shops cannot expect major price breaks in a limited market. With the birth of several "Editor" type products will come competition - especially in pricing. David rarely slays Goliath. Goliath usually has the better business sense and much deeper pockets.

The US trucking landscape is littered with trucking discounters after deregulation. Bottom line -> Profit margins.

Just my two cents.
joel

After rereading this I better clarify - I agree with GMPXs statement for the above stated reasons. There is a cost of doing business in a continuing concern. Most have never run a business, on a day to day basis, and DO NOT understand costs or pricing structure. I am not talking about razorblades in a worldwide market or Microsoft. A small market is totally different.

[Steve Bryant]

mind sets. Obviously, FlashScan (and its competitors) will fill a niche in a niche market. The vast majority of owner/operators of vehicles with LS1-based powertrains will do no aftermarket tuning whatsoever. Perhaps 15 percent of these owner/operators are enthusiasts to some degree and will purchase an aftermarket product. Probably 80 percent of that 15 percent will purchased a "canned tune" which will retail for $300 to $450 (USD). The remaining 20 percent will buy a PCM flasher like FlashScan. Now, based on my hypothetical percentages, this means that the PCM flasher market represents three percent of owner/operators (.15 * .20 = .03 or 3 %). Some of these folks have already bought into the LS1Edit system and will not switch due to their investment in time (learning curve) and money. Therefore, this is truly a niche in a niche market.

I agree with EMARKAY in the market segment/pricing structure breakdown. I agree with his quantities of VIN's and the relative afford-ability of the PCM Flasher. The supply/demand curve should dictate pricing points which are directly proportional to the need and profit potential of the person doing the PCM flashing. I trust you guys to set fair pricing points. I trust you guys to develop a superior product. I trust you guys to support that product in an uncompromising manner as you have demonstrated with EFILive. But I also trust you guys to be fair and equitable to yourselves. You are running a business and not a benevolent aid society. We will pay you to be knowledgeable, not naive.

It would be naive of me as a consumer to expect that FlashScan will be a superior product of high value that is priced at a shareware level. However, as a consumer who does not plan to be flashing others (literally or figuratively or in any other way) I would simply do without if the product is priced unreasonably. But I don't expect that at all. As I said in the last paragraph, I trust you guys to be fair and equitable to yourselves [and your customer base].

[Doctor Bob]

My feelings are as follows:
when the guys decide they will let everybody know all about the pricing and licensing structure, and until then its all speculation.
Knowing some of the people involved in this project pretty well i have complete faith in their ability to make business decisions.
The cost will be fair for the product i am sure.
Everyone has to appreciate the level of service and commitment these guys provide.

My 2 bobs worth...hehehe
Rob

[mnotx]

I just plain like the way these guys do business. They stand behind their product and address problems quickly and thoroughly. That is worth a lot to me.

[GMPX]

Thanks to you all, sounds like most people are quite understanding of the situation.

As it is now, nobody can have a Monopoly on the LS1 tuning market which will keep prices fair. You all know EFILive has never been unreasonable with it's pricing, so you might pay a bit more that some other scantools out there but as we know it is worth the extra $$.

We are not out to rip you guys off, but the pricing has to work for both sides of the fence.

I have been a consumer long enough to REALLY understand the old saying "You get what you pay for".

[dissonance]

1-3 VIN
4-10 VIN
10-25 VIN
26-99 VIN
and unlimited


Something along this line would work very well... I have talked to MRK about this and I think if users wanted an extra car added to the cable then a one time fee $$? Would be set and that’s the upgrade cost for another VIN to added... 100% VIN un-lock will not work because abuse would go on.

Some home users have more then one car or more then one car in the family that they might want to do some simple tuning to. This would also come in to play with people that have a car and truck.

Something I would also like to see is the ability to read all pcms but only flash the one you have paid for. The reason for this is comparison of PCM’s in stock or modified cars. This would also make it easy for users to pass around there tune so other users have place to start/compare. Also add away to clear the VIN out of the file so it could not be linked back to a car. Like a simple value file + car type/make and year with no other information of the PCM.

[Highlander]

Well... how do you feel.. for me to start I have to spend what I earn in almost a year... Hey Im an enthusiast and I feel its a bit unfair for extremely small busineses like me.. where if a license costs you 250 (to say an example) I cant do a simple tune... or a change this only tune... because I would loose money...

10K for a tunner package may seem correct to you when you have people like pcmforless.. madz28... ED Wright.. Fast Chips... SuperChips... etc..

but for instance... a small place like PR.. I have only tuned 4 ls1 cars... 4 in 2 years! and I've gone to the reunions etc. but my pricing is so high (cost of getting software license, etc etc etc) that I cant really go lower. You would assume that people with a corvette has $ to pay for a tune, but the reality here is that people want to see something tangible and tunning is not... The rush here is imports.. not domestics... It is totally different down at Australia (hence why people like you exist).

I would pay 3k for a complete ls1 tuner.. but not 5k and not 8k... I wont get that ammount of $ out in one year...lack of publicity? i have made mine, but here people are not willing to shell the ammount of $ (even though I do have a wideband and my results are proven and happy costumers).

I have worked on ls1 pcms.. and there is certainly LOTS of work involved just to develop calibrations. And a lot of knowledge from a lot of years to get where you are and do what you like and do best, but not everyone chose the schooling you chose and be ahead 10-15 years than others, so some of us need to "rely" on other's peoples work...

Its not easy to shell 10k in a one minute payment when you earn $5.15/hour. A year has 2080 working hours (40x52) so that is almost one years pay... I do eat.. I do need shelter (dont live with parents).

When I decided on efilive it was not easy shelling the $ also, but I did it because the $ was worth the product...

So any help is gladly appreciated...

A fancy scanner makes things easier... a tuner all it needs is to flash/Read which are the most important things..

Look at it this way... GM charges you $895/ year... it means that is 10 years of flashing pcms (although not custom for now) but in 10 years I doubt I'd be using the same software you guys are developing now. CAN to come ahead.

Dont get me wrong guys... im not saying that your product is not worth it its just that its a bit hard and the business is small for an inmense ammount of $. Even with the price structuring of 25 licenses.. I wouldn't do small things.

When was the last time you heard people giving over tunercats programs?? they were extremely cheap and not vin locked... People kept them to themselves. Try asking for it in the forums...

Another way of seeing it...
It takes around 3k to get a Really good set of tools to build an engine, replace, and remove... Those tools work "forever" and those tools will work for newer cars and older cars... They are "unlocked". Imagine Craftsman vin locking your tools... if you use them in something else you get an electric SHOCK :lol:

Now if 10k gave me.. all cars.. all trucks.. all v6 3.6 l67 and l36... its really worth it...

but just for ls1s? i do not think its fair, or at least not for me... PCMForless and all those mail order tunners may be a different idea or way of looking at it.

[Highlander]

[quote=emarkay]
Something I would also like to see is the ability to read all pcms but only flash the one you have paid for. The reason for this is comparison of PCM’s in stock or modified cars. This would also make it easy for users to pass around there tune so other users have place to start/compare. Also add away to clear the VIN out of the file so it could not be linked back to a car. Like a simple value file + car type/make and year with no other information of the PCM.

Like "ls1edit" does?

ls1edit does read ALL pcms.. You cannot see the tune, but you can read it...

Actually I feel its stupid to not let you see the tune even if you didn't license it.

[jimmyblue]

In my opinion, you already have copy-lock in the form of the cable.

Further locking the software to one VIN only costs user resale value
and prevents them from tuning for friends (or acquaintances...).

Whether you see side-tuning as a sales loss or a marketing leader
depends I guess. But if this product comes out with a VIN-locked
"protection" scheme then the only way I would buy it is with some
written guarantee of transferrability. No way am I buying another
zero-resale-value tuner product (already have a Predator).

I think you should stick to the same locking scheme as EFILive,
which is to say, none aside from the cable. Do you think having
that software usable on cars beside the owners' hasn't brought
you new customers, once they've seen what it can do?

[emarkay]

I know it's deviating from "VIN Lock Gripes", but since nothing has been finalized,
let me pontificate some more on the "wall" between buyer and seller...

(BTW, Do not consider this a reason NOT to post your opinions on this issue - the more that is said, the more is known...)

Regardless of the prevailing wages or the limited market, there are 2 overriding facts.

1. "You pays your money, you takes your chance."
A quote from some film somewhere, but if you (the CUSTOMER) have a need for something, your level of incentive determines how much it's worth to you. If there are a variety of products that accomplish a similar-to-exact thing, then it's your level of intelligence and awareness of the choices that must factor in also. This is COMPLETELY on the part of the customer.
In a perfect world not only would Coke and Pepsi and Sams and RC all taste different (they do), but they wouild all cost the same. I prefer Coke, and it costs more - the extra cost is worth it to me.

2. "We're only in it for the money."
A quote from ANOTHER film, but again, from the MANUFACTURER's point of view, their reason for being MAY well be that, or maybe "we're only in it for the fun, or for the challenge, or to pissoff the competition, or to whatever" ...
Other than a few cartoon characters and a few dead religious dudes, no one really wants their efforts to go unrewarded. Fame, money, chicks, or even the personal satisfaction of a job well done all act as incentives to the artist, the craftsman, or the business leader. Integrity and ethics, and the lack thereof, can make it easier to achieve these rewards, but when you have only a few dedicated artisans and a VERY limited marketplace, it HAS to "work" in both in theory and in practice.
Some rush out a flawed product, or underprice the base and make it up on the accessories or the support, and some really don't care, or don't care enough to do any "market research" , while others keep tinkering and perfecting and changing, and stalling and never really get it right.

There's no other way to put it, but what is released will be the most cost efficient product to accomplish a specific task, in a limited market, with attention to the heritage of the product and the desires of the customers.

"You can't please all of the people all of the time."
"We've done our part, now you do yours."
"You've seen the rest, now buy the best."
"We will sell no [tuner] before its time."
"You tell two friends and they tell two friends, and so on and so on and so on..."

NO, none of these are ours, but they all have appropriate connotations.

MRK

[Highlander]

Its a bit easier for you probably... you will be getting a better price than all of us ;)

its easier to defend what you are not threaten with...

I do not need a single license... i already have mine... I have a 94LT1.

Most of the people that own ls1edit will not change ls1edit over to this one if it not brings a huge better bang for the buck. I can tune performance wise anything i need for with ls1edit.. as a matter of fact.. i do not need that many tables to get my car to where it should.

I am only interested in unlimited versions... I wont buy ANY locked version ever not for 1 vin not for 2 vins. With that I am NOT saying its NOT worth the $, i am NOT saying its going to be a bad product. On the contrary. BUt it serves no good to my limited pocket to have 2 systems for one same car.

I have been SOOOOO tempted to buy efilive v4, but I just cant justify the cost of it when I already PAYED for datamaster. I have used it.. and yes its a better product than Datamaster. But I keep datamaster for $ sake.

If your software would have been $600 when I was going to buy ls1edit I would have bought yours eyes closed.

Actually all I need is a complete read and write flasher program nad that is it.. No need for cals or anything else.. SOmething that may be rough edged but it works... I dont mind that...

[dissonance]

Like "ls1edit" does?

ls1edit does read ALL pcms.. You cannot see the tune, but you can read it...

Actually I feel its stupid to not let you see the tune even if you didn't license it.

no i dont mean like ls1edit does... what i ment was the fact you could read the tune in any file that has been saved with efilive flash software. but you just cant flash it in to the pcm... basic tables so you can compare the two. the fact is if you wanted to flash a 02 settings in to a 98 then you would need to edit your 98 file to match what the 02 file has, not just flash the 02 in to the 98.

with ls1edit you cant even open a file that it from another car with out paying for that vin. i dont belive that is right.

[deezel]

Side comment on the LS1Edit capability.
When I first got my verison of Edit, I could read and view most flash files I found online. But, the first time I flashed my PCM (and entered the lisence key) I lost the ability to view most files except for the one covered under my lisence.
I think I'll try re-installing Edit in a different directory (and not use it to flash) and see if I can regain the ability to view other files.

I agree that it would be nice to view all files, but only flash the vehicle lisenced.

[GMPX]

I agree that it would be nice to view all files, but only flash the vehicle lisenced.

I agree too, that's gotta be good :lol:

[AllCammedUp]

Side comment on the LS1Edit capability.
When I first got my verison of Edit, I could read and view most flash files I found online. But, the first time I flashed my PCM (and entered the lisence key) I lost the ability to view most files except for the one covered under my lisence.
I think I'll try re-installing Edit in a different directory (and not use it to flash) and see if I can regain the ability to view other files.

I agree that it would be nice to view all files, but only flash the vehicle lisenced.

I totally agree. My LS1-Edit acts the exact same way, and it's very aggrivating. It can actually be dangerous if you don't know to look for it, as looking at other files and comparing their values with your own can lead to some very interesting calibrations if you copy the tables.

LS1-Edit, IMHO, is a necessary evil *at this time* (but not in the near future, thank goodness). That being said, I am HAPPY to hear about FlashScan, and I am sure the guys at EFILive will make it equitable for all of us. I even would go so far as to say that the LS1-Edit licensing scheme is somewhat fair - it's just that Carputing doesn't play fair on upgrades, VIN additions, being able to read other files, etc. They make it hard to even learn about what you are trying to program, because they so tightly limit what you can do (and see) outside of your own license.

If the past is any indication, I'm sure EFILive will take good care of us.

[jimmyblue]

If the past is any indication, I'm sure EFILive will take good care of us.

Yes, but, my concern is that there seems to be a break with the
past, in terms of the nice wide-open vehicle access in EFILive, on
the table and nothing concrete from them that eases it.

[Blacky]

Jimmyblue, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying...

Do you mean you are concerned that we have not yet spelled out our licensing policy for the Tuning Tool?
If so, then that is only because we have not finalised that policy yet.
I understand how that makes it difficult for potential users to make informed decisions about which product(s) to purchase.

Creation of that policy is being driven by the following considerations:
1. An attractive upgrade deal from the EFILive Scan Tool
2. Preserving the resale value of the tuning tool and making the resale of the tool simple and easy for buyer and seller.
3. Making the tuning tool cost effective for the following types of users:
- DIY home mechanic.
- Club members (i.e. small number of similar vehicles).
- Small workshops (i.e. small number of different vehicles).
- Large workshops (i.e. large/unlimited number of different vehicles).

Or maybe you are concerned that EFILive Scan Tool was not VIN locked and it appears that we are moving to a per vehicle (or per group of vehicles) policy? That is true, for the reasons spelled out by GMPX (and others) above.

Regards
Paul

[jimmyblue]

My concern is that it's been stated the "perfect" license of
EFILIve is going to change, and it hasn't been stated just
how far or to what. At the other end of the spectrum, there
is an ugly (even to say abusive) existing example to feed
the suspicious mind. The bogeyman lives in the dark....

[Blacky]

The scan tool license will remain as it always has been, scan any vehicle that you like - no restrictions.

The tuning tool will have some form of restriction. But the price will reflect the restriction fairly. The less restrictive the license the more expensive the product.
I can't give exact details as they haven't been decided yet.

I agree the bogey man lives in the dark - I don't like that either.

I have heard the analogy of how people would not buy a mechanical tool if it was "VIN locked". Well here's the other side of the coin:

What if you could buy a mechanical tool for $500 that performed a much needed task on ALL LS1 vehicles? Now let's assume you don't need to use that tool on ALL LS1 vehicles, just your own. What if that tool was offered fpr sale at a "much cheaper" version for say $50 that only worked on your vehicle. Would you take the $500 tool or the $50 tool?

One of the reasons mechanical tools are not usually sold in that manner is because that type of use cannot be enforced and more importantly the value of the tool is in the tool itself. So manufacturers only offer the tool at it "normal" price, otherwise no-one would buy the $500 version and the company making the tool would go out of business.

With a PCM tuning tool (i.e. computer software), the value is in the R&D that goes into making the product - not the product itself. So software companies can be creative with their licensing - some abuse that ability - we intend not to.

Also with software products, single or limited use can be enforced, so it encourages manufacturers (like EFILive) to offer a greatly discounted version of their software for single or limited use.

We are not dreaming up ways to get more money for EFILive, we are actually deliberating on how to offer cheaper/smaller/limited use options that are fair and suit the DIY mechanic.
The large all-you-can-eat workshop version is the real version - everything else is a limited use, discounted version.

Regards
Paul

[XLR8NSS]

The large all-you-can-eat workshop version is the real version - everything else is a limited use, discounted version.

Regards
Paul

When you say limited use do you mean limited by how many vehicles it will work on or by what features are available relative to a shop version.

I don't mind limited by the number of vehicles it will work on but, I want all the features available to me that a shop would have with a unlimited version.

The question I have is what is meant by "limited use"

Thanks

John

[Blacky]

When you say limited use do you mean limited by how many vehicles it will work on or by what features are available relative to a shop version.

Limited in that context means: "limited to a particular subset of vehicles".

There will be features that are only available in multiple/unlimited versions.
Those features will not be "tuning" related features but operational differences.
I am not at liberty to discuss those operational differences, but they will be along the lines of customer/vehicle database management.

Let me stress that we intend for the access to "tuning" features to be be the same in all versions.

Obviously if a customer approaches us with a specific request we reserve the right to add any particular feature exclusively for that customer.

Regards
Paul

[joecar]

I just bought a house, have two car payments, do free car work for my relatives and friends, do all my own car work (it fits my budget), and goto a daytime job (in an unrelated field) to pay my bills, so I expect a fair price for the 1-4 VIN tuner package; I have always had a good experience with the EFILive, and I know that they will be fair to me;
so I'm not too worried about it.
:)

[XLR8NSS]

Blacky - Thanks for clarifying what was meant by "limited" :)

[GMPX]

I just bought a house
Mmm, mines a few years off before the bank stops hassling me.


have two car payments
Thankfully I own both mine, but there is always room for more.


do free car work for my relatives and friends
Yeah, I'm too nice to say no as well.


do all my own car work (it fits my budget)
Not worried about the budget, at least you know the work is being done correctly.


and goto a daytime job (in an unrelated field) to pay my bills
I'm my own boss, I don't have a daytime job, it in reality, I'm at my job 24/7.


so I expect a fair price for the 1-4 VIN tuner package
So do we (expect some reward for all the long days/late nights)


I have always had a good experience with the EFILive, and I know that they will be fair to me;
:)
We will indeed try to be fair.

[Ladyredhawk]

I would prefer to get EFILive’s tuning program. I am in the same position that a few other “small” shops are in. My husband and I run a small business and would like to be able to tune a few local LS1s. I have studied tuning for about 2 years now but have only tuned a few cars. There is no way we can afford to spend $10,000.00 on a tuning program or for that matter $3,000.00. We have used LS1Edits locked version with 4 licenses per cable on it, we have charged the customer the cost of adding the new license to the cable plus a fee for our tune.

Now another tuning software is available that is year only locked for about $500.00. If I buy it for a 2001 fbody, I could tune as many 2001s as I wanted with it and you can add one more year to the cable with total cost around $900.00 for unlimited use on 2 year models. This maybe the way I will have to go if EFIlive is not at least this available to me.

As I said I would much prefer working with you guys at EFIlive!!! You guys have been great to me and your products are awesome, I am just hoping I will be able to afford flashscan!

[Tim Sloper]

I've been on both sides of the fence and it is definitely difficult to setup a pricing scheme that is attractive to the individual user but is not so attractive that the tuners start to suffer. From the tuner perspective I am not interested in seeing an unlimited version for the single end users. On the business side it just doesn't make sense for EFILive or the tuners. That model just doesn't support long term sales. One car club with some capable members could put a dramatic dent into a local shop's business. Now if I were the local shop I would have no choice but to put a premium on dyno fees for those guys bringing in an "unlimited" suite to tune with.

I do not think it is unreasonable for a user to pay (at a reduced rate) for each car they have. I've spent a considerable amount of money on my car over the 5 years in mods, etc. It is painful to the checkbook but the reality is that if I can not afford to do it I shouldn't be doing it. It is not reasonable for others to bear the costs just so that you can enjoy your hobby as an "enthusiast".

As for VIN locking, etc...

LS1Edit's downside is they they require the end user to go to alot of effort to "reset" their cable in the situation of programming a replacement PCM. They also render the cable useless in a re-sale situation.

I would VIN lock only in terms of model year supported. I would use the PCM ID to ensure that once a new VIN has been programmed the old PCM ID is stored off into Flash on the module to mark it as a non-updateable PCM ID. This lets the user replace his damaged PCM or sell his cable with no interface needed to the EFILive guys while prevent abuse of the licensing. No one is going to throw their setup on a buddy's car knowing that as soon as he updates his buddy's car he will not be able to update his own again.


Tim Sloper

[Blacky]

Excellent post Tim!!

The points you raised have been at the top of our list for some time now.

Thanks
Paul

[Highlander]

I would prefer to get EFILive’s tuning program. I am in the same position that a few other “small” shops are in. My husband and I run a small business and would like to be able to tune a few local LS1s. I have studied tuning for about 2 years now but have only tuned a few cars. There is no way we can afford to spend $10,000.00 on a tuning program or for that matter $3,000.00. We have used LS1Edits locked version with 4 licenses per cable on it, we have charged the customer the cost of adding the new license to the cable plus a fee for our tune.

Now another tuning software is available that is year only locked for about $500.00. If I buy it for a 2001 fbody, I could tune as many 2001s as I wanted with it and you can add one more year to the cable with total cost around $900.00 for unlimited use on 2 year models. This maybe the way I will have to go if EFIlive is not at least this available to me.

As I said I would much prefer working with you guys at EFIlive!!! You guys have been great to me and your products are awesome, I am just hoping I will be able to afford flashscan!

I agree with you as I am in the same boat... I am willing to pay 3k for a complete v8 ls1 package. I think its more than fair... but for all vettes and camaros... maybe a tad more. But I just cant afford a lot more unless i take a loan or something...

I just hope its a reasonably priced software. I believe that a "loss" larger than 3k is a bit heavy and when i mean a loss i do not mean I am wasting my money, rather that I cant get the investment back

But hey.. we all mod our cars so its a matter of patience...

When do you think you will be out?

[joecar]

I would prefer to get EFILive’s tuning program. I am in the same position that a few other “small” shops are in. My husband and I run a small business and would like to be able to tune a few local LS1s. I have studied tuning for about 2 years now but have only tuned a few cars. There is no way we can afford to spend $10,000.00 on a tuning program or for that matter $3,000.00. We have used LS1Edits locked version with 4 licenses per cable on it, we have charged the customer the cost of adding the new license to the cable plus a fee for our tune.

Now another tuning software is available that is year only locked for about $500.00. If I buy it for a 2001 fbody, I could tune as many 2001s as I wanted with it and you can add one more year to the cable with total cost around $900.00 for unlimited use on 2 year models. This maybe the way I will have to go if EFIlive is not at least this available to me.

As I said I would much prefer working with you guys at EFIlive!!! You guys have been great to me and your products are awesome, I am just hoping I will be able to afford flashscan!

I agree with you as I am in the same boat... I am willing to pay 3k for a complete v8 ls1 package. I think its more than fair... but for all vettes and camaros... maybe a tad more. But I just cant afford a lot more unless i take a loan or something...

I just hope its a reasonably priced software. I believe that a "loss" larger than 3k is a bit heavy and when i mean a loss i do not mean I am wasting my money, rather that I cant get the investment back

But hey.. we all mod our cars so its a matter of patience...

When do you think you will be out?

Highlander, $3K may be okay (...maybe or not...) for you where you tune several different LS1 cars each year; but the shop that tunes several LS1 cars per week is getting away for very cheap (considering they charge something like $400-$600 per tune); the shop that tunes several LS1 cars per month may find $3K on the high side; and the non-shop DIY individual who owns 1 or 2 LS1 vehicles is not going to fork out $3K; so there has to be some manner of charging according to number of different vehicles tuned in some given time period.

[Highlander]

Yeah... you are correct...

I am tunning mostly lt1s due to the availability...

I cant tune for 200 bucks like i do the lt1s..

I know i always like the unlimited part so I'll try to fork it out if I have to sacrifice.. and yes I understand your point... its a tool that is making you earn some $.

You cant compare pcmforless to me for instance :)

[minivette]

Creation of that policy is being driven by the following considerations:
1. An attractive upgrade deal from the EFILive Scan Tool
3. Making the tuning tool cost effective for the following types of users:
- DIY home mechanic.

Regards
Paul

I like those two. Since I, for one, own EFILive V6 and have two cars. A 2000 Z28 and a 2001 Z06. With HPtuners, since they are two differnet year models I need to purchase two licenses, which sucks. :(

I do not like the "year model" lock. It should go by number of cars.

[joecar]

Creation of that policy is being driven by the following considerations:
1. An attractive upgrade deal from the EFILive Scan Tool
3. Making the tuning tool cost effective for the following types of users:
- DIY home mechanic.

Regards
Paul

I like those two. Since I, for one, own EFILive V6 and have two cars. A 2000 Z28 and a 2001 Z06. With HPtuners, since they are two differnet year models I need to purchase two licenses, which sucks. :(

I do not like the "year model" lock. It should go by number of cars.

Yes, I like those two also.

(I have a 2001 WS6 now and I am one day considering retrofitting an LS1/LS6 to some late 60's or early 70's muscle car (which I will one day soon purchase before I get too old to do something about it); my wife would like to have a 2002 WS6 also, so we'll buy her one too; that makes upto 3 potential LS1 vehicles);

And I am definitely an DIY car work guy -- I even do my own wheel alignments using short lengths of 2x4s, a spirit level, and a tape measure... :lol: (I got the toe-in to better than 1/32" on our old Datsun after replacing the whole front end... :wink: ).

[Pimp_Nas_T]

No matter what kind of a locking scheme you come up with, someone eventually will find a way to hack it. Locks only keep honest people honest.

Why not use this approach...
Make every copy of of the tuning tool vin locked.
Make the tuning tool very affordable < $100
Any shop that does tuning should register with EFILive as distributors of the product. Everyone that comes in for a tune will leave with a tune and their own copy of the tuning tool. Future tunes would require the customer to bring their copy of the tuning tool with them.

Make the product affordable enough it's not worth hacking. Make the product affordable enough that everyone will buy a copy, whether they need/want it or not.

The only way you can recover your R&D time is to sell a few copies at a high price, or sell many copies cheap. Amazing how this worked for Bill Gates..........

[Blacky]

Why not use this approach...
Make every copy of of the tuning tool vin locked.
Make the tuning tool very affordable < $100

That price tag is a little unreasonable since it costs more than $100 for the hardware. You can buy a code reader for $100 and code reader hardware is far more trivial than our interface cable.
However, you're in the right ball park for licensing costs. (gee, the cat's almost out of the bag...)

Remember our tuning cable (FlashScan) has the following features:
1. Reflash capability
2. High speed data logging
3. Bidirectional controls
4. Black box data logging (no laptop required in vehicle)
5. 2 A/D inputs for integrated logging of wide band O2 and Dyno power output.
6. Other "cool" features that we have not announced yet.
7. USB "plug and play". When using FlashScan, EFILive operates directly on the Windows USB stack. Not via a virtual com port.

All those features come at a price. (The parts and manufacturing alone cost more than that).

However, just like the EFILive Scan Tool software, the EFILIve Tuning Tool software will be free to download use and/or distribute. However, without the hardware it will not be possible to reflash the PCM.

Regards
Paul

[Pimp_Nas_T]

That price tag is a little unreasonable since it costs more than $100 for the hardware. You can buy a code reader for $100 and code reader hardware is far more trivial than our interface cable.
However, you're in the right ball park for licensing costs. (gee, the cat's almost out of the bag...)


I just pulled that number out my rear... if everyone can afford it, everyone will have it

[Highlander]

Hey my AT123 costed me QUITE A FEW BUCKS!!! and IT DOESNT REPROGRAM!!!!!!!!

im sure the licensing will be more than fair for the kind of software...

I will be honest... i payed $95 for my datamaster LT1 and I thought efilive was freaking outrageos.... after i used the trial version!!! it took me 2 days to buy it because I had to make a payment to my CC in order to pay it to ATAP ;)


So im sure it will be more than fair... its been the only software that has had updates nad more feautures and when I asked for the right click functionality in the v6 from the v5.. I was pleased because they took MY OPINION and put it there... SO I WAS HAPPY!!!!

I Will be more than happy to pay their asking price.. of course I hope its EXTREMELY affordable... but... I've developed calibrations and it takes TONS AND TONS OF HOURS AND HOURS to research a complete calibration.... and there are QUITE A FEW in the ls1s, each are always different.. + coding + ETC ETC ETC.. means lots of 100hours/week work time wife going nuts because you are not dedicating time.. etc etc etc...

Im sure it will be a hit and I shall be one of the first costumers.

[Black LS1 T/A]

It will be useless to a LOT of people if it doesn't support 97/98 PCM's. It appears EFILive's plan for 98 F-Body owners is to make them incur MORE cost and inconvenience/headaches to get the software to work for them. :cry:

[Highlander]

It will be useless to a LOT of people if it doesn't support 97/98 PCM's. It appears EFILive's plan for 98 F-Body owners is to make them incur MORE cost and inconvenience/headaches to get the software to work for them. :cry:

WHy you say this??

I disagree totally... As a matter of fact 98 guys are blessed.

[Black LS1 T/A]

Perhaps my ignorance of the issue is biting me. What does this mean:

"We (EFILive) will not develop the 98 calibration maps internally and we will not sell licenses for 97/98 PCMs. Instead we will allow a qualified third party to reverse engineer and document the various tuning calibrations in the 97/98 PCM."

I have to deal with a third-party engineer to make the product work? Who should be able to do this better than the EFILive people who DEVELOPED the software? I foresee hassle-city! :?

[Black LS1 T/A]

I've used SDK's ,programmed to low level controls, databases, etc, and created user and developer interfaces for years. But, I have no specialized knowledge of extracting or writing information from and to the PCM of a vehicle.

I have B&B Electronics interface to communicate with the PCM. But, use of it is poorly documented, and I've only gotten around to learning it enough to get basic information from the PCM. There's no real SDK I could find for programming using their adapter. I had to use the generic Microsoft serial commnications control to do that.

[Blacky]

You will not have to deal with a third party.
You will still deal with EFILive.
The product will still work "out of the box".
You, the end user, will not have to do any special configuration for your 98, EFILive will create all the configuration files that will allow you to tune your 98.

The only difference (from 99-04) is that the information will be provided to EFILive by a third party (or parties) and therefor we will not charge the end user for that information.

So basically it is up to the 98 tuning community to throw as much calibration information at EFILive as possible. We will then create a free 98 calibration definition for EFIlive.

Note: "free" means that the definition is free. You will still need to buy a license for the EFILive Tuning Tool, and the FlashScan interface cable. What you will not have to pay for is the 98 calibration definition. It will be a free download.

Paul

[SL Performance]

I agree that the price must be somewhere in the middle.

If you set the price per vin too low everyone will go out and purchase a copy putting the tuners out of business. Put the price too high and small business people like myself will skip purchasing the program all together because it just doesnt pay. Up here ( Vancouver, Canada ) there is an extremely limited ls1 market so its like balancing on a bit of a knife edge.

I would suggest an option to purchase a "tuner licence" for about 1500.00 usd that includes only 1 vin. You would then have the ability to link up and add vins as necessary for about 150$ per vin. The system would have to be upgradable on the fly ie: customer drops in for a tune , I log into your site and purchase an additional vin using my tuner licence over the net , upload it into the cable or whatever and tune the car. This reduces the initial expense for a small shop but still creates good return on investment.

Regular vins should be locked to 1 vin with the ability to purchase 1 more at a slightly reduced cost or similar imo.

[Black LS1 T/A]

You will not have to deal with a third party.

...etc

Paul

Thanks, Paul... that cleared up many things. :)