Medium Cam tuning

[adam24v]

Hey everyone, I am new here and have been playing with efi live for 5.9 and 6.7 cummins for a year now. This is my first time building a gasser and even tuning one but I have done lots of research to help make everything easier on myself. I've been attempting to get this car to idle right for a few days now and im still having troubles with it. Its a 2004 lm7 with a BTR stage 4 cam 233/248 .630"/.618" lift with 111.5+2.5. Below im including 2 tunes and some logs with them. If someone could please look them over and point me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate it. It is on speed density and has a th400 as well. If you need anything else please let me know and I will do my best to help. PS. I have also tried AUTOVE and RAFIG but I cannot filter PIDS on v8 the way you can on v7.5.

It also has l59 injectors and its set at 60 psi, no power adders as well.

The files are together for each others. Thank you!

2461824619
2462024621

[nonnieselman]

Hey everyone, I am new here and have been playing with efi live for 5.9 and 6.7 cummins for a year now. This is my first time building a gasser and even tuning one but I have done lots of research to help make everything easier on myself. I've been attempting to get this car to idle right for a few days now and im still having troubles with it. Its a 2004 lm7 with a BTR stage 4 cam 233/248 .630"/.618" lift with 111.5+2.5. Below im including 2 tunes and some logs with them. If someone could please look them over and point me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate it. It is on speed density and has a th400 as well. If you need anything else please let me know and I will do my best to help. PS. I have also tried AUTOVE and RAFIG but I cannot filter PIDS on v8 the way you can on v7.5.

It also has l59 injectors and its set at 60 psi, no power adders as well.

The files are together for each others. Thank you!

2461824619
2462024621

Do you have a vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator?

Give this a try.

[adam24v]

It has one but reference is not connected. I have to put my trans and exhaust back on and connect my wide band to see what I'm running for AFR. I looked over the tune and overall the stuff you changed makes a lot more sense other than doing the segment swap. What is the purpose/need for that? Ill post the new data log this weekend with the tune to see how it does and hopefully will have everything connected so you can see AFR in the data log as well. Could you also explain why 33 LBS/hr for the injector flow rate, I was under the impression it was 33 for flex fuel pressures which are high 40's if I remember correctly.

[nonnieselman]

Ok i changed it up for the non vacuum referenced regulator. The L59 in 03 with return fuel system has 33 in for the stock tune. L59 in 04+ data is in this latest tune update. Delete the original tune i uploaded, i missed some stuff in it.
The segment swap or the adjustments in the Custom Calibrations?
Also i just noticed the cam specs. i was in a hurry earlier. That is a huge cam for a 5.3. What heads do you have and whats compression?

[adam24v]

Correct, I have a l59 tune as well for reference for the fuel injector flow rate etc, but i remember the early l59 using lower fuel pressure so 33 lbs/hr would be incorrect for lower pressure as the flow increases as the pressure increases. I was curious specifically about the segment swaps and why they are done. Yes it is a very large cam for a 5.3, unfortunately there were a few drinks involved behind the purchase of it and just because the car will be at 7500 rpm. It's not a cruiser or anything of that matter it will occasionally see the track but mostly is just a street only car with how I have set the suspension up. This is also a toy and I wanted to do stuff differently than what others have done. Cam will be changed in a few months to something much smaller and I will be boosting it when I'm more comfortable with tuning. It has 706 heads that have been ported and polished with a valve job, stock bottom end with the rings gapped a little looser for a small shot of spray and for when I boost it. My guess for compression is around 10:1 with head gasket thickness and no milling of the heads that I am aware of.

[adam24v]

I was referring to specifically the segment swaps, I am not quite sure of the purpose as the segments in the tune seemed okay to me but I'm a novice with gm gas tuning so I don't know. Yes, it's a very large cam for a 5.3(there were also a lot of drinks involved behind the purchase of everything on this build) but the car weighs 2800 lbs full weight with me in it and is strictly set up for street and strip. It will not be used for cruising and will be trailered everywhere it goes for racing. I have the rings gapped a little looser for spray or boost as I plan to boost it in the coming months and to change the cam setup but for now I would like to enjoy 7500 rpm NA. it has 706 heads with a decent port and polish along with a valve job. Compression is a hair above stock with a thinner HG, I don't think the heads were milled in the past. I would be happy with 450 crank HP NA and if I decide to go with a small shot of spray it should satisfy me until the car goes to a twin turbo setup again.

[nonnieselman]

I was referring to specifically the segment swaps, I am not quite sure of the purpose as the segments in the tune seemed okay to me but I'm a novice with gm gas tuning so I don't know. Yes, it's a very large cam for a 5.3(there were also a lot of drinks involved behind the purchase of everything on this build) but the car weighs 2800 lbs full weight with me in it and is strictly set up for street and strip. It will not be used for cruising and will be trailered everywhere it goes for racing. I have the rings gapped a little looser for spray or boost as I plan to boost it in the coming months and to change the cam setup but for now I would like to enjoy 7500 rpm NA. it has 706 heads with a decent port and polish along with a valve job. Compression is a hair above stock with a thinner HG, I don't think the heads were milled in the past. I would be happy with 450 crank HP NA and if I decide to go with a small shot of spray it should satisfy me until the car goes to a twin turbo setup again.

AH!
So for what your doing with a TH400 it wont need any kinda segment swap done.
If you have the right converter/gear/tire combo it wont be too bad of a setup. I think i set the rev limiter to 7000 so will need to bump it up some more once you get the tune sorted out.
Your not gonna see 450hp with just that cam and stock 706 heads tho.
Ill check back in and see how your coming along with getting the car ready to fire back up.

[adam24v]

I think 450 at the crank is doable with that cam, fuel injectors and the other odd ends that are done to it. 706

[adam24v]

Alright so i've been messing with the car and it idles well or atleast better than before. I've also torn it back down though and began the piping for a turbo, i figured if im building it from the ground up i should build it the way i want the first time around. For a 3 bar map sensor could I use it with a COS and be fine or do I need to flash in a different OS? I plan on running 15-20 PSI depending on how the car feels and my desire for power. I will be upgrading injectors soon as well to 95 LBS/hr with the goal of going to e85 as well. First steps would be getting it to run well on 93. My biggest question is can is stick to open loop speed density doing the turbo setup so i can do away with my narrow band o2's and only use a WBO2 in my downpipe?

Edit: Also, what is everyone doing for modifying their VE tables since v8 makes it a pain with filtering data? I've been going of DYNClair and trying to adjust a handful of cells at a time. There has to be a better way around this?

[nonnieselman]

Yea ive done hundreds of turbo trucks with OLSD. It works, just takes time to get the tune sorted out.
Your COS3 now is fine.
Make sure your injectors have good data.
Fuel Injector Clinic, Fuel Injector Connection, or Deatshwerks are the main ones i use for Stock PCMs.

What you mean about V8? It works pretty good just have to get your filters setup.


Now days Holley makes it so easy, i very rarely do turbo tunes on stock PCMs anymore. I started putting Terminator or Dominator ECUs in trucks for the advacned traction control and very nice boost control features. Built in 2 step and Closed loop fueling control. Setup Safeties for fuel pressure and injector duty cycle to keep the rotating assembly inside the block incase there is a fuel issue for whatever reason.

[adam24v]

Sorry, whenever I try to post a reply on my phone it never posts it properly and cuts off a giant section of the paragraph or the whole thing.

As for what I was trying to say, the injectors i will be using are FIC injectors so im hoping they will respond well with the injector data provided.

As for the v8 question, I've yet to understand why there isnt a way to filter data for data logs. If there is please point me in the right direction with what I need to do.

Thank you

[nonnieselman]

The injectors I

????

[adam24v]

Took a hard turn with build process of the car over the past few months. I initially planned on staying N/A and enjoying it as is due to weight but after building a turbo 5.3 impala with a buddy I decided I wanted to boost my car. Still using the same cam as I started with but going from 38 lb/hr injectors to around a 120 lb/hr injector. Also changing map sensor to a 3 bar setup for when I want to run high boost in the future. I've been doing countless amounts of reading paired with watching videos of people explaining different functions. The one thing I can't quite understand is the throttle cracker and follower and what I should do for them before the first start. I also am not sure how much adjustment I should do for the timing overspeed and underspeed adjustment at idle. I understand there should substantially be less for both tables however I'm not sure how much less. I know that too much timing adjustment at idle causes it to swing violently and stall.

[adam24v]

Anyone still use this forum anymore? Seem's like it has really died off over time.

I messed around with the overspeed and underspeed timing a little to help with swinging. Hopefully I will be able to test it next week or even this weekend assuming everything goes together smoothly.

What do people recommend for putting in injector data? I have 1000CC injectors at 43.5 PSI and have my regulator set at 58 PSI like factory. I've looked between Injector dynamics info and FIC's info and both seem very different for pulse control and offset however their flow rates are very similar. If someone could point me in the right direction for which one to use that would be great.

[nonnieselman]

Took a hard turn with build process of the car over the past few months. I initially planned on staying N/A and enjoying it as is due to weight but after building a turbo 5.3 impala with a buddy I decided I wanted to boost my car. Still using the same cam as I started with but going from 38 lb/hr injectors to around a 120 lb/hr injector. Also changing map sensor to a 3 bar setup for when I want to run high boost in the future. I've been doing countless amounts of reading paired with watching videos of people explaining different functions. The one thing I can't quite understand is the throttle cracker and follower and what I should do for them before the first start. I also am not sure how much adjustment I should do for the timing overspeed and underspeed adjustment at idle. I understand there should substantially be less for both tables however I'm not sure how much less. I know that too much timing adjustment at idle causes it to swing violently and stall.

Why 120# injectors?

The steps i do is get idle sorted out in P/N (Airflow,fueling and timing)
Get idle sorted out in gear (Airflow, fueling and timing)
Then start by revving the engine in park/neutral to 2000 rpms and let it return to idle.
Datalog Throttle Follower and you can watch it in action.
Rev it to 3000 rpms and so forth.
Once you get all that sorted you can move to similar in gear.
Datalog and pay attention to all the data your seeing.

Throttle Cracker is only while the Vehicle speed is above B4311, its deactivated by B4312.
When you open this table read the descriptions. It gives you a good idea of what that table is responsible for.

Throttle follower is what it says. its adding airflow to follow the throttle.
Throttle cracker is to "crack open" the throttle while vehicle is moving to give it extra airflow.

If your unsure, add 1 to the whole table and flash tune, datalog and see how it reacts. If its helping, add 1 more.

Overspeed/underspeed is to help control idle rpms fast. Think of this a fine adustment.
IAC over/under is for crude adjustments. (B4515)
That tune i sent on 5/30 has a decent spark over/under setting.

MOst important is fueling. Once you get fueling dialed in, the idle is much easier to work with when you get that sorted out.

[nonnieselman]

Anyone still use this forum anymore? Seem's like it has really died off over time.

I messed around with the overspeed and underspeed timing a little to help with swinging. Hopefully I will be able to test it next week or even this weekend assuming everything goes together smoothly.

What do people recommend for putting in injector data? I have 1000CC injectors at 43.5 PSI and have my regulator set at 58 PSI like factory. I've looked between Injector dynamics info and FIC's info and both seem very different for pulse control and offset however their flow rates are very similar. If someone could point me in the right direction for which one to use that would be great.

This forum is pretty dead.
What injectors did you buy? If they dont have GM Data, your going to be in a heck of a bind trying to figure out how to tune. Data is the key.

[adam24v]

I believe they said is1000 or id1000 on the body. Purchased them from a local guy who totaled his car when he was ordering turbo parts. I figured 120 lb/hr would be good for a boosted application and give me room to go to e85 since it’s plentiful where I’m located. They were new as well, never been installed but I misplaced the data card and screwed myself there. I’ll review the tune from 5/30 and compare. How does it apply for p/n and in gear with there being a th400 involved? The ecm doesn’t know if there’s a trans hooked up and defaults to one or the other I thought. I smoothed an area out to get my timing more rougher in for idle after reviewing data logs showing 15-31* of timing at idle.

[adam24v]

Answered my own question from earlier regarding about the P/N and in gear situation. Following up, i'm a little lost regarding the injector data, I'm going off of the ID data for their 1000cc injector. If you could review this file whenever you have the chance that would be great.24721 Injector datahttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wnUUhS8tek1ZnoDPLoF9nv6L_fvb6HyB/edit?pli=1&gid=396750509#gid=396750509

Thank you

[nonnieselman]

Sorry, i dont have the new version of EFI on this laptop.
I looked at the data but it doesnt say what the base pressure those numbers are for.

Here is what i come up with.

[nonnieselman]

Here is tune

[adam24v]

I reviewed the tune you sent and compared it to mine. Thank you for correcting b4005 table with small pulse adjust, I would have never caught that.

I've also looked deeper into using and making filters and have gotten one going. Would you recommend me doing AUTOVE when the time comes to drive and rough in my ve table some or would I be better off going off of idle VE values and making an estimate then referencing my WBO2.

I appreciate all the help you have given me, thank you.

Edit: Would PE even be necessary in an application like this? Its strictly race with maybe a very light cruise into town roughly 15 minutes each way, that is if I even feel like getting plates for it. It will more than likely spend most of its life being used on the track. Power enrichment is used for when you hit a certain throttle percentage at a certain temp to ramp fueling and adjust timing for WOT and such. If it's being used at WOT a lot wouldn't it be better to just tune accordingly for that?

[nonnieselman]

I reviewed the tune you sent and compared it to mine. Thank you for correcting b4005 table with small pulse adjust, I would have never caught that.

I've also looked deeper into using and making filters and have gotten one going. Would you recommend me doing AUTOVE when the time comes to drive and rough in my ve table some or would I be better off going off of idle VE values and making an estimate then referencing my WBO2.

I appreciate all the help you have given me, thank you.

Edit: Would PE even be necessary in an application like this? Its strictly race with maybe a very light cruise into town roughly 15 minutes each way, that is if I even feel like getting plates for it. It will more than likely spend most of its life being used on the track. Power enrichment is used for when you hit a certain throttle percentage at a certain temp to ramp fueling and adjust timing for WOT and such. If it's being used at WOT a lot wouldn't it be better to just tune accordingly for that?

You will need to do AUTOVE the whole time while tuning.
Idle VE?

PE settings are always necessary.
PE is for fueling. Disable B5908.
Spark Timing is based off the fuel table pretty much.
The not so fun part of stock PCM tuning is you have to make a pass and hope your VE is close enough. Then review the datalog, figure out where you need to do fuel adjustments, Then make those changes and flash updated tune in.
Make another pass and repeat.


Have you considered a holley ecu?

[adam24v]

You will need to do AUTOVE the whole time while tuning.
Idle VE?

PE settings are always necessary.
PE is for fueling. Disable B5908.
Spark Timing is based off the fuel table pretty much.
The not so fun part of stock PCM tuning is you have to make a pass and hope your VE is close enough. Then review the datalog, figure out where you need to do fuel adjustments, Then make those changes and flash updated tune in.
Make another pass and repeat.


Have you considered a holley ecu?


Okay, AUTOVE the whole time should be easy. As for Idle VE I should've worded that better. I meant the values on the VE table at idle.

For the PE settings should I continue having them set at the factory values ie. 40% throttle to engage it? B5908 is set to all zeros, is there anything else necessary to disable it?

I have not considered a holley ecu. Haven't really looked at any aftermarket ecu options since I had the EFI Live setup already. I know HP is commonly used nowadays for all the stock ECU tuning but I figured why not use something that has been tried and true already.

[nonnieselman]

Okay, AUTOVE the whole time should be easy. As for Idle VE I should've worded that better. I meant the values on the VE table at idle.

For the PE settings should I continue having them set at the factory values ie. 40% throttle to engage it? B5908 is set to all zeros, is there anything else necessary to disable it?

I have not considered a holley ecu. Haven't really looked at any aftermarket ecu options since I had the EFI Live setup already. I know HP is commonly used nowadays for all the stock ECU tuning but I figured why not use something that has been tried and true already.

Ah. I was wondering.
You can add a percentage to your VE to start with then dial it in with Wideband. Or go with what you have and chip away at it slowly.

Do you understand how PE works?
PE Fueling is 90% stock.
I had already adjusted B5908 for you earlier.



I forgot about TH400 so throttle cracker has no effect for you since its Speed based.


The holley ECU's have this whole thing stupid easy and all the built in controls like Boost control, 2 step, closed loop fueling at all times, best part is traction control and live tuning.

Ive just about stop using stock PCMs for boost and nitrous setups.

Compare this tune to yours. I have lots of setting ready for you. Spark and fueling and such. Can copy them over with a Compare/Update.

[adam24v]

That was my initial plan for idle with chipping away at it. With the 38 lbs/hr injectors it was really rich but still idled.

I’ve been doing reading left and right all day about PE and still continue to confuse myself. Correct me if I’m wrong but PE is commanded AFR and you have to compare it to actual AFR then use that data to help hone in the VE table. PE has multiplied factors with temp and IAT to add or subtract commanded fueling. I’ve been comparing tune files from people who struggled with AUTOVE and working on their PE table to help understand it more.

I’ve just been trying to learn as much as possible in such a short time frame that I’m getting burnt out on certain sections so please bare with me.

I’ll compare files and check back in if there’s any further questions. Hope to get a tube flashed and some data logged to see what can immediately be roughed in soon. Also plan on leaving the boost disconnected until I can get my N/A fueling and timing okay then will be adding boost into the equation and adjusting from there but that’s later on.

[nonnieselman]

Make those changes from my tune to yours and get a datalog.
But The PE settings will be fine if you use them from the 0003 tune.

Power enrichment is just addition fuel added to stoichiometric for the extra airflow. IF you ran stoichiometric in boost the pistons wouldnt be able to handle the heat and melt..

It wont hurt to be commanding the AFR in the 0003 tune and running it N/A.

Do you have a factory tune to do a compare with?

What size turbo are you going with?

[adam24v]

I do have the factory tune I pulled from the ECM before I started messing with it. Great to know about the PE info, I would rather not melt things down. I just figured leaving the charge pipe disconnected and doing a rough in would be easier before building more boost but I can see why it wouldn't bad leaving it connected and watching everything to make sure I don't run over 5 lbs. I went with a 78/75 turbo from VSR for a fairly quick spool up and as a good way to learn before upgrading. Curious to see how spool is since I play with big turbo diesels.

24726 Here is the stock tune file

[nonnieselman]

What i would do if i was you..
Run the lightest spring as possible. Its hard to hurt a engine with less than 3psi boost.
That cam is wayy too large for a simple 5.3 with 78/75 tho.

[adam24v]

Will do, its just one step at a time. Cam shouldn't be horrible with the 78/75. It's meant for NA but it will still work. The impala I mentioned early used a BTR Red Hot cam with 221/24x at .050" 113 LSA. Its still a big difference but his car responded very well so i think it shouldn't be too bad. Timing was a little funky though and we did use a terminator for that car.

[robof16]

With Holley, do you incorporate the knock sensors and what's your technique to tune spark?

[nonnieselman]

18* of cam overlap with a 75mm turbine that's going to have high back pressure at higher boost isnt the best setup.
What torque converter and rear gear are you running and tire size?

Terminator is so much easier to mess with for boost.

[nonnieselman]

Ive never used knock sensors with any of the Holley ECUs.
Easiest way is to get it sorted out on the dyno and then take it to the track and start reading plugs.

[adam24v]

Honestly I can't remember, i haven't touched that car in almost a year. I'm pretty sure we ran 93 110 mix, adjusted target AFR and did a baseline for spark then babied it and did fine adjustments for a while before opening it up. Even then we avoided going over 4 lbs until we had things down pretty smooth. We did pull A LOT of timing to ensure there would be next to no knock so its not a fast car but it's fun.

[adam24v]

3800 RPM stall, unsure of flash since i haven't driven the car. 4.10 and 28x10.50 slick. I will upgrade stuff eventually like a larger turbo, custom grind cam, forged internals, etc. This is a cheap learning point as compared to a more expensive rotating assembly. I'll go the terminator route one day if I choose to get more competitive with it but for now something fun and a little quick that I can learn a lot on is much more valuable to me.

[nonnieselman]

Atleast it has a decent converter and gear/tire combo. That will help. But there is a reason most turbo cams have a lot less cam overlap.
We have taken fullsize 4x4 trucks to the mid 9s in the 1/4 with a stock LQ4 and a 212/212 cam and a 80mm turbo. So a small cam and right turbo/converter/gear/tire combo is hard to beat. and drives so much better than a big cam.

With a turbo, running to little timing is almost as bad as too much timing. EGTs get really high with low timing.

Now days the easiest way to go fast is to find a Gen 4 4.8/5.3 and get the right cam for it. Have taken a stock LC9 with cam/lifters/pushrods/springs/studs to 4.6s in the 1/8th mile and never took the oil pan off. it was the best money maker we have ever built.

[adam24v]

VERY good to know about the egt’s regarding timing being low. I’ll need to let me buddy know because we did pull a substantial amount of timing in order to be safe. As for the cam overlap too much results in wasted boost ie. more boost needed to make the same power as compared to one with a smaller cam with less overlap right?

With all the builds you’ve done do you have a shop you run or just do it with buddies?

[nonnieselman]

VERY good to know about the egt’s regarding timing being low. I’ll need to let me buddy know because we did pull a substantial amount of timing in order to be safe. As for the cam overlap too much results in wasted boost ie. more boost needed to make the same power as compared to one with a smaller cam with less overlap right?

With all the builds you’ve done do you have a shop you run or just do it with buddies?

Send me his tune off the Term and i can check it out for you.

No.
Think about this.
If your Intake and exhaust valve is open at the same time (this is "overlap"). And your running a smallerish turbo with a turbine that is going to cause high backpressure in the exhaust.
Say your running 10psi boost but you have 40psi in the exhaust driving the turbine. And both valves are open, how efficient do you think that setup would be with that much more exhaust trying to push back into the cylinder?
Thats why effecient turbo cams are setup like they are.
A N/A setup with large headers and good exhaust that scavenge will help with a large amount of overlap. The exhaust helps pull air into the cylinder.
I have a shop in south west mississippi. I build a bunch of no prep drag cars and turbo daily driver trucks.

Also the right size cam will help spool a turbo.
For the size cam you have it would do best with a larger turbine (96mm or so) that would lower the drive pressure on turbine.
but if your only trying to make 800 hp is not feasible to run such a large turbo or large cam.

[adam24v]

Thank you for better explaining how overlap works with a turbo application. 800hp is all I can really max out at, if that, with the current bottom end, fuel, and air configuration. I have family around Hazlehurst and Brookhaven if you’re not too far from there I’d pay you for your time to look over the tunes and such in person.

[nonnieselman]

Thank you for better explaining how overlap works with a turbo application. 800hp is all I can really max out at, if that, with the current bottom end, fuel, and air configuration. I have family around Hazlehurst and Brookhaven if you’re not too far from there I’d pay you for your time to look over the tunes and such in person.

IM not far at all. Ill shoot you another PM.
The PM you sent only had the letter I in it haha.