Problems with CKP relearn on 2001 12200411 PCM

[S10Wildside]

I converted a TPI engine to use the 12200411 PCM with a modified Express Van calibration.

http://www.eficonnection.com/12200411/stand02.jpg

The engine started right up and threw the following (expected) codes:

http://www.eficonnection.com/12200411/ckp_problems.jpg

I was unable to successfully perform the crank relearn procedure. I initially had a transmission code P1810 that was preventing the relearn procedure, but after disabling that code, I still can't perform the relearn. I can press the relearn button and see the countdown, but when I rev the engine it'll go beyond 5,000rpm and never cut out the injectors. I've disabled all codes that EFILive is saying will prevent the CKP relearn procedure. I'm stumped. Any suggestions?

[Dirk Diggler]

Does the car know its in park?

[ChipsByAl]

Or does the PCM know the position of the brake pedal?
Al
PS. if the donor file is a manual (not in this case) make sure the PCM knows the position of the clutch pedal.

[ChipsByAl]

Kewl project in either case. Are you using the 4L60-E, 4L80-E or another transmission?
AL

[350SS]

If he's running a 700R4 trans, does he just need to ground the park/neutral wire?

[ChipsByAl]

Grounding the P/N wire will allow CKP learn to take place. If he uses a switch then he can take advantage of the idle tables as well. You can use a switch that grounds for the starter neutral safety "relay" and then it can double as a P/N switch to the PCM.
AL

[S10Wildside]

Does the car know its in park?

I tried to spoof park and still no luck. I even tried chaning to a manual transmission. I couldn't see how to do this with EFILive, so I modified the PCM with TunerCat OBDII to change the tranny from an auto to manual. Still no good.

[S10Wildside]

Or does the PCM know the position of the brake pedal?
Al
PS. if the donor file is a manual (not in this case) make sure the PCM knows the position of the clutch pedal.

The PCM does not know the position of the brake pedal. I suppose that would have to do with the TCC clutch power wire? If I recall, that's the only signal from the brake switch.

[S10Wildside]

I'll have a chance to look at this this weekend. I'm still unclear on the difference between the gear selector switch used in the Express van and the lack of that switch in the f-body. Don't know how that affects the PCM. The gear select switch has four wires from the PCM and the f-body only has two (pins 32 and 34 on the blue PCM connector). Even the colors changed. I expected to ground the orange/black wire to indicate park/neutral, but when I built the harness using the Express schematics, that wire is white and goes to "Transmission Range Switch P" (pin 34 on the blue PCM connector).

As far as the brake signal is concerned I see one input to the PCM, the purple TCC wire. That wire receives 12v when the pedal is not depressed and is open when the pedal is depressed. I have that wire open on the test stand. So I'm not convinced that the brake has to be depressed to perform the CKP relearn. It may be a safety precaution.

So that leaves me stumped again. Thanks for the ideas to this point. Any others are welcome!

Here's a video of the engine running on the test stand (still without the relearn).

http://www.eficonnection.com/12200411/12200411.mpg

[ChipsByAl]

To perform the crank variation learn procedure with the Tech2, the brake pedal needs to be pressed. It may need to see the change as well, but I am not sure. I haven't used EFI live to do the learn yet so I can't comment on that. In either case I would try to simulate the switch. Disabling the brake switch or P/N codes doesn't change the PCM's "mind."

As far as the PRNDL switch wiring not being on the F-car, I wouldn't concern myself about that. The Camaro does not have the display in the cluster, it is on the shifter and moves with the lever only. The function of this switch could be added to EFI_Live to be enabled or disabled.
AL

[S10Wildside]

To perform the crank variation learn procedure with the Tech2, the brake pedal needs to be pressed. It may need to see the change as well, but I am not sure.

The service manual specifically mentions the PCM needing to see the change in the signal of the brake pedal. I was surprised to see that the my 2000 Firehawk (with 12200411 PCM) DID NOT need to see a change in the state of the brake switch.



The function of this switch could be added to EFI_Live to be enabled or disabled.

Could you further explain? Do you mean that I could somehow add this parameter to EFILive? This is how TunerCat OBDII displays the parameter. I would have expected to see this in the EFILive selection of parameters.

http://www.eficonnection.com/temp/PRNDL.bmp


Latest Progress
Very little time to work with this engine. I did notice that the PCM recognizes second gear on the test stand. I'm going to have to play with the gear selector switch wires to figure out how to make the PCM see first gear. I think this may be the culprit. I may try again this week.

[S10Wildside]

I have to somehow figure out how to indicate 1st gear from the following information. Kinda stinks that the service manual does not provide more details for the PNP switch. I'll have to post the results after playing with various ground combinations on those four wires.

Taken from the service manual:


The PRNDL Circuit Board receives a combination of 2-4 grounded inputs from the Park/Neutral Position Switch indicating the gear position.


http://www.eficonnection.com/temp/pnp.bmp

[ChipsByAl]

The PCM determines what gear you are in from the PSA or the pressure switch assembly. This is in the valve body and only active when the engine is running and the trans pump is working. When fluid is directed to the different pressure switches by the manual valve, the PCM can determine what gear the transmission is in.
The external switch is used for the neutral safety, reverse and PRNDL switches, not used on the F-body. The F-body has a switch at the shift control.
AL

[S10Wildside]

The PCM determines what gear you are in from the PSA or the pressure switch assembly. This is in the valve body and only active when the engine is running and the trans pump is working. When fluid is directed to the different pressure switches by the manual valve, the PCM can determine what gear the transmission is in.
The external switch is used for the neutral safety, reverse and PRNDL switches, not used on the F-body. The F-body has a switch at the shift control.
AL

Here's the f-body diagram.

http://www.eficonnection.com/temp/TFP.jpg

If I have the correct diagram and if I understand this correctly, grounding circuit 1225 (DK BLU) wire will indicate 1st gear. Because that wire is currently open (to ground) on the test stand (the connector is not plugged into anything), the PCM sees this as open and is indicating 2nd gear. I'm not sure about the difference between 2nd and 3rd gear in this diagram though.

[joecar]

Do these help (from 4L60E Tech Guide)...

Note: the PSA tells the PCM the position of the gear selector lever, and not the current gear that the trans. is in;

the current gear is determined from the state of the 2 shift solenoids (PCM commands them and can read their the voltage state to see if they went to the correct state).

[joecar]

You want to signal PARK for CASE relearn, don't you...?

[S10Wildside]

Thanks for the images. I am able to signal park. I took another try again today, but the PCM didn't store the CKP relearn code. I flashed the PCM for use in my Firehawk, then reflashed it today for use with the test engine on the stand. Doesn't the full flash erase all CKP learn data? Any idea why the CKP relearn wasn't expected today?

There was so much less to mess with for OBDI. :)

[ChipsByAl]

Has the code P1345 ran and passed? If the correlation is incorrect between the cam sensor and the crank sensor the learn procedure won't run. The specification is + or - 2 degrees.
AL

[joecar]

Someone should check the Service Manual for the requirements needed for the crank relearn to proceed...

(I would check this, but my desktop's HDD crashed and I'm waiting for Dell support to get me a new one).

[S10Wildside]

Someone should check the Service Manual for the requirements needed for the crank relearn to proceed...

(I would check this, but my desktop's HDD crashed and I'm waiting for Dell support to get me a new one).


CKP System Variation Learn Procedure
1. Connect the scan tool.
2. Apply the vehicles parking brake.
3. Block the drive wheels.
4. Close the hood.
5. Place the vehicles transmission in Park (A/T) or Neutral (M/T).
6. Idle the engine until the coolant temperature reaches 65°C (150°F) .
7. Turn OFF all the accessories. IMPORTANT: If the CKP System Variation Learn Procedure cannot be completed successfully, refer to DTC P1336 for additional diagnostic information.
8. Enable the Crankshaft Position System Variation Learn Procedure with the scan tool. IMPORTANT: After the ignition switch is turned to the CRANK position, the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) must see a change in the state of brake switch (Released to Applied) to run the learn procedure. (My Firehawk did the procedure without this.) Also, the service brakes, not the parking brake, must be held throughout the duration of the learn procedure.
9. Apply and hold the service brakes. IMPORTANT: While the learn procedure is in progress, release the throttle immediately when the engine starts to decelerate. The engine control is returned to the operator and the engine will respond to throttle position after the learn procedure is complete.
10. Slowly raise the engine speed to 4,000 RPM .
11. Immediately release the throttle when the engine speed decreases.
12. Turn OFF the ignition for 15 seconds after the learn procedure is completed successfully.

[S10Wildside]

Has the code P1345 ran and passed? If the correlation is incorrect between the cam sensor and the crank sensor the learn procedure won't run. The specification is + or - 2 degrees.
AL

For some reason P1345 was not set when I reflashed the PCM and started the engine. I had a generator code and a MIL circuit (service engine light) code P0650.

[scuzz]

Any progress on the relearn process? Any more problems pop up?
Thanks,
Ron

[S10Wildside]

Any progress on the relearn process? Any more problems pop up?
Thanks,
Ron

I haven't touched it since I last posted. The control panel is now attached to a VW Bug engine running with a GM TBI unit. I probably won't be able to look at the engine again until Spring.

[scuzz]

How's the bug running with a TBI? That's kool!
I built VW engines for 18 years, and I have a 59 Karhman Ghia I've been thinking about building. The dual webers might have to be replaced with a TBI.
Need more info.
Thanks,
Ron

[S10Wildside]

How's the bug running with a TBI? That's kool!
I built VW engines for 18 years, and I have a 59 Karhman Ghia I've been thinking about building. The dual webers might have to be replaced with a TBI.
Need more info.
Thanks,
Ron

It was a kit purchased about 8 years ago from Turbo City. It runs on a 1227747 ECM.

[scuzz]

That's cool. I'd like to come across one of those that no one has used for a while.

[Lextech]

I am having the exact same relearn problem on the same 12200411 PCM. What I am wondering is in post 15 Joecars' 3rd document shows that the low/rev clutch is engaged in park but not in neutral, so maybe this PCM wants to be in neutral? Just a thought. I am going to try again today in neutral. I have been over the wiring diagrams about 40 times and I don't see any mistakes on my part.

[scuzz]

It'd be nice to resolve all these problems before I fire my truck in a couple weeks.
Good luck Lextech.
Ron

[Lextech]

Finally got the crank relearn figured out. I did the relearn today. My 12200411 is programed as an 01 Express van 5.7-4l80e. This programming wants to see 4 inputs from the Park/Neutral switch. I grounded pin 32 and 34 of C1 Blue 80pin connector DURING the relearn, so the PCM thinks it's in park. I will properly wire it later, but my harness is all finished and tidy and I don't want to open it up any time soon. My emission test is this month. I am going to go on Monday and give it a try.

[scuzz]

Lextech, what did you use to do the re-learn with?
Thanks,
Ron

[Lextech]

Ron, I used EFILive! After all of the drama leading up to this--The whole relearn took about 2 seconds. After it worked I thought -That's it ?-That was too easy.

[scuzz]

That's great. I've got to get my project done!

[scuzz]

S10Wildside, did you do re-learn with TCII before getting EFILive up and running?
Ron

[S10Wildside]

S10Wildside, did you do re-learn with TCII before getting EFILive up and running?
Ron

Unfortunately TunerCat can not do the relearn.

[scuzz]

How's the project going S10Wildside? Did you get it finished?
Any other problems show up?
Thanks,
Ron

[S10Wildside]

How's the project going S10Wildside? Did you get it finished?
Any other problems show up?
Thanks,
Ron

I haven't touched the test engine in a few months because the gauges are on the VW Bug engine right now. It's running on a '747 ECM and GM TBI unit.

The harness I built for Matt in Cleveland for his 89 Formula has been installed, the car has been tuned, and Matt took a drive from Cleveland to Erie. I got to drive the car and am very impressed with the conversion (and the 383 Miniram). The car pulls strong and steady. He's currently shopping for a 4L60E. The harness is ready to simply plug it in.

This weekend my buddy in Pittsburgh came up to build a 1220411 harness for his 350 TPI (with a T56) that's in his S-10. There has been good interest in converting the older engines to the newer LS1 PCM.

How's your project coming along?

[scuzz]

I haven't touched the test engine in a few months because the gauges are on the VW Bug engine right now. It's running on a '747 ECM and GM TBI unit.

The harness I built for Matt in Cleveland for his 89 Formula has been installed, the car has been tuned, and Matt took a drive from Cleveland to Erie. I got to drive the car and am very impressed with the conversion (and the 383 Miniram). The car pulls strong and steady. He's currently shopping for a 4L60E. The harness is ready to simply plug it in.

This weekend my buddy in Pittsburgh came up to build a 1220411 harness for his 350 TPI (with a T56) that's in his S-10. There has been good interest in converting the older engines to the newer LS1 PCM.

How's your project coming along?

It sounds like the 0411 business is picking up for you. That's great.
The more conversions out there, the more feedback we get.
I've gotten sidetracked right now on my 0411 project. The wife's 67 Firebird vert TPI project is out of the body shop and she want's to drive it in the Xmas parade downtown, so I've got to finish the TPI conversion next week of so.
I'm only a couple working days away from starting the 0411 truck, I think. We are using a charger to test all circuits out now. I've got to get a filler spout on gas tank, exhaust system, and mount battery box, and I think it will be ready. I'm running out of time. Tax season is upon me and I've got to get back to 80 hour weeks so I can play next summer.
Do you know the status of the new EFILive package? I will probably buy it next spring and maybe can the TCII.

[scuzz]

Just to get this thread going again. The TGO thread is doing great. It's amazing how many are taking interest.
Have you seen Lextech's post on http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3240?
It also is a really good post.
Ron

[Highlander]

It would be really awesome if you could get the 8 coils to work with this OS. I think there is a limitation with the 4x crank signal or something.

[Lextech]

I Believe you would have to have the engine provide the correct count of crank and cam inputs. Then wire up the coils to the PCM. Then flash the PCM as an LS1 Camaro.

[Highlander]

that is the tricky part as the crank trigger on this engine only does 4x... not 24x. Either machine up a reluctor ring or no other possible way.

[scuzz]

Would the different firing order for the LSX versus L31 motors make the swap a problem?

[Lextech]

It should only be a matter of swapping around the injector and coil pigtails to the right sequence. What is the tooth count for the Cam Sensor?

[S10Wildside]

Wow, I dug this post up while doing a search for something else. This has come a long way. Many have already converted to the 12200411 PCM using the Express Van calibration with great results.

The latest progress with the early small block is running LS1 coil per cylinder. The first vehicle EFI Connection put this is was a 1982 S10. The engine is also equipped with electronic throttle. More about the S10 here: http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/S10Wildside.aspx

http://www.eficonnection.com/projects/S10Wildside/images/web01.jpg

http://www.eficonnection.com/projects/S10Wildside/images/RamJet_in_Engine_Bay01.jpg

Yesterday the truck running this engine made good numbers on a Dynojet.

http://www.eficonnection.com/projects/S10Wildside/images/S10Wildside_Final_Dyno_Pull_HP_TQ_640x480.jpg

[scuzz]

Really good looking numbers.

[Haans249]

Can you not have any other DTC's set to be able to do the CASE relearn? I dont' have a MAF, and I press down the brake pedal before I hit the CASE relearn and after I wait til 85C and then hit the CASE relearn button, and nothing appears.... do I somehow need to clear the MAF code? This is a 2001 WS6 with COSv5.