NEED HELP WITH 98 Camaro AUTO VE TUNING

[Chuck CoW]

I've got a stroker motor to tune in a 98 camaro. It was a 4l60 but now it's a t400...not sure if i should use a stick o/s or the existing auto o/s...

Pluss, I need to "AUTO VE" this thing....I don't find anything in the tutorial on this o/s or on the forum....

Can you point me in the right direction? The Ve tables have different resolution between the Backup and Main...

I haven't had to do this one before....and I'm kinda lost.....any advice or custom os or something?

Chuck CoW

[eboggs_jkvl]

The VE tutorial covers the 98s. The auto "type" question I don't have an answer for. The biggest difference I saw is having to MAP the main and backup VE tables.

[Chuck CoW]

The VE tutorial covers the 98s. The auto "type" question I don't have an answer for. The biggest difference I saw is having to MAP the main and backup VE tables.


Well, Ross says to do the "auto VE" with the backup table.....

BUT, if I want to use the maf on this one...How do I convert the BACKUP table to the main VE table??? The resolution is different??? What now?

chuck

[TAQuickness]

If you follow teh AutoVE tutorial, you will be updating the primary and back up thru the process.

[black z]

:stupid: The autoVE will have you calibrate both tables. I just did my 99 last night. Mine is just a bolton M6 though.

[Chuck CoW]

:stupid: The autoVE will have you calibrate both tables. I just did my 99 last night. Mine is just a bolton M6 though.


here is what i've found....the BACKUP and MAIN VE tables do not have the same resolution.....(ie..the number if columns is different..maybe double for the main) so you can not just copy and paste one onto the other....

Ross says that when we go SD to do the auto VE...the o/s defaults to the backup VE and I should do the auto ve on the backup.....BUT, what do I do when I turn the MAF back on and the tables are not the same.....

Now What?!?! I'm alittle lost.

chuck

[Redline Motorsports]

Even if the resolution is off, you should still be able to use the main VE and copy and paste with labels to bring the backup table to match.

[Garry]

When tuning a 2k and earlier, one or two places in the AutoVE tutorial are slightly ambigous - do BOTH B0101 and B0103, when setting up the Maps in the Scan tool, do so for both the Main and Backup values, that way you will have the appropriate BENs for both tables!

[SSpdDmon]

First, we need to clarify something. The VE here just has to be close if you plan on turning the MAF back on. It's there to back the MAF up incase of failure or when it's response is limited (transitions, low airflow, etc.). Tuning a pre-'01 car in SD is simply done with the backup VE. Get it close enough (+/- 3%) if you can. Then, copy the x0kPa columns from the back up VE to the main VE individually. Fill and hand-smooth the gaps for the x5kPa columns. I usually set the 105kPa column equal to the 100kPa column. The 15kPa row can be guestimated by following the trend for each RPM row. Re-enable the MAF and move on. Once the majority of the MAF is dialed in, look at idle and your transitions. If you transitions and idle are lean/rich, increase/decrease both VE tables slightly (+/- 2%) in the respective areas to eliminate the issue. Don't sweat the small stuff too much or you'll go insane. Tweak/finalize the MAF and be done. Just my $0.02.

[Chuck CoW]

First, we need to clarify something. The VE here just has to be close if you plan on turning the MAF back on. It's there to back the MAF up incase of failure or when it's response is limited (transitions, low airflow, etc.). Tuning a pre-'01 car in SD is simply done with the backup VE. Get it close enough (+/- 3%) if you can. Then, copy the x0kPa columns from the back up VE to the main VE individually. Fill and hand-smooth the gaps for the x5kPa columns. I usually set the 105kPa column equal to the 100kPa column. The 15kPa row can be guestimated by following the trend for each RPM row. Re-enable the MAF and move on. Once the majority of the MAF is dialed in, look at idle and your transitions. If you transitions and idle are lean/rich, increase/decrease both VE tables slightly (+/- 2%) in the respective areas to eliminate the issue. Don't sweat the small stuff too much or you'll go insane. Tweak/finalize the MAF and be done. Just my $0.02.


Thanks, I'm workin on it now....

chuck

[98SS2836]

I log both.

[Chuck CoW]

I've got the Backup table REALLY GOOD....except for those "hard to reach in an automatic with giant converter" cells.....you know, after an hour of driving you only managed to hit the cell once and you're 40% off....ya know????:bash:

Now, I've copy and pasted my backup over the main VE table and taken each col to the right...copy each col that has a match in the backup table and paste it to the blank col immediately to the left. I've made the right 3 cols the same for WOT....I'm not sure if I should interpolate BETWEEN THE COLS or just duplicate them???? Wacha think? Not sure it matters.

All values are less than 3% except for the extreme hard ot reach areas and I've interpolated with surrounding cells to "make nice" as best I can.

I think I'm ready to restore the MAF and go at it again! :wave:

I'll be back
Chuck CoW

[Chuck CoW]

hey guys..... You know, this might be a stupid question..but, Is it cool that I have numbers in my VE table that exceed "100"....????

How is it that on a normally aspirated motor that I have in excess of 100% VE with no forced induction????

The cars I VE tune have cells that exceed 100 and the cars run great....

What Gives? anybody wanna make me feel better about this?

Chuck CoW

[TAQuickness]

It's fine Chuck. I get 111.929% NA. I think it has more to do with fuel pressure fluctuations than actual VE.

[Chuck CoW]

It's fine Chuck. I get 111.929% NA. I think it has more to do with fuel pressure fluctuations than actual VE.

Well, so far so good......but, Any suggestions about moving my backup VE over to the MAIN??

I've copy and pasted w/ lables and obviously only got every other col....I've tried duplicating the right col into the left....but. I don't think that's a good idea....

and...when faced with the possibility of doing the whole smoothing thing by hand.....WELL, that sucks...

any suggestions?

Chuck CoW

[Garry]

Why don't you do two maps in the Scan tool??? When you do the AutoVE runs, all you have to look at is the "big" BEN map, the BEN map for the backup VE table will also be fine afterwards ...

[eboggs_jkvl]

I ran 2 maps. I simply copied the main to the main and the backup to the backup. Scale doesn't come into the picture that way. The instructions say to RUN 2 MAPs to cover the main and backup issue.????????

[Garry]

Did you set up the second map with the same units as the backup VE table?

[Chuck CoW]

Did you set up the second map with the same units as the backup VE table?

I'm gonna do it now. The issue is that the backup VE and main VE are not identical (even if you only consider the columns that match up). and When you do a copy paste w/ lables and multiply you are not placing the SAME data in both maps....you are only adjusting the existing main/backup values by the BEN table values....

I would love to polish the VE on the main....but, Unless ross whips me up a custom os for 98 to allow the main VE to be used in the event of maf failure....we're stuck...

I've got a PERFECT backup VE now, but no real ACCURATE way to paste those valuses into the main VE....something will be left to interpretation and be ultimately lost.

The lesson here is that since the MAIN and BACKUP VE tables are not identical to begin with....running 2 maps in the scanner will not yield perfect (or even close to perfect) results.....

Anyone following me?

chuck cow

[TAQuickness]

it's really not that difficult. the resolution is different between the two tables. Assuming you are starting from stock and apply the BEN corrections to both tables, you will be very close to spot on with the Main VE table when you are ready to re-enable the MAF. That is why the AutoVE tutorial is written the way it is.

[Chuck CoW]

it's really not that difficult. the resolution is different between the two tables. Assuming you are starting from stock and apply the BEN corrections to both tables, you will be very close to spot on with the Main VE table when you are ready to re-enable the MAF. That is why the AutoVE tutorial is written the way it is.


Well, I understand, but....even if you start with the original VE tables...This is close but, still not correct....

Look at it like this....When you are in SD mode, you are not using the MAIN VE so to continually update the main VE with the BEN CALC values...don't really mean anything.

The BEN CALC modifier you paste over the Backup VE is not generated from the values in the main VE as it is disabled.....so, weather you start with the original VE or any old numbers.....it's apples and oranges.....they are not connected.

The BEN CALC factor is the difference between the BACKUP VE table and what the wideband sees as correct.(for the 97/98's) To use the same BEN CALC factor on the main VE over and over when the pcm ignores the MAIN VE in SD MODE it's kinda silly....you're not really changing anything....

In this case the Backup VE is updated with each flash and you get closer and closer each time you make and "auto VE" run. While the MAIN VE keeps getting modified by the ben calc but...the main VE is never used in SD mode....

I know it sorta looks like it's working while you're doing it....and it almost makes sense.....but I think it's wrong.

This is why I tried to "stretch" the Backup table into the main when I was done....This is REAL data....the big DRAG is that it's real but kinda worthless cause the resolution is gone....Back to square 1.....At this point you might as well just GUESS at the numbers.

I've played with the tables and after alot of "photoshop" type stuff on the 2 VE tables....I've finally crafted something that yields great results....

This guy should pay me $1,500 bucks for this tune for the time I have into it!

I hate playing games where you have to make up the rules as you go.:bash:

Anyone out there see it how I see it???:bash:

Chuck CoW

[TAQuickness]

Well, I understand, but....even if you start with the original VE tables...This is close but, still not correct....

Look at it like this....When you are in SD mode, you are not using the MAIN VE so to continually update the main VE with the BEN CALC values...don't really mean anything.

The BEN CALC modifier you paste over the Backup VE is not generated from the values in the main VE as it is disabled.....so, weather you start with the original VE or any old numbers.....it's apples and oranges.....they are not connected.

The BEN CALC factor is the difference between the BACKUP VE table and what the wideband sees as correct.(for the 97/98's) To use the same BEN CALC factor on the main VE over and over when the pcm ignores the MAIN VE in SD MODE it's kinda silly....you're not really changing anything....

In this case the Backup VE is updated with each flash and you get closer and closer each time you make and "auto VE" run. While the MAIN VE keeps getting modified by the ben calc but...the main VE is never used in SD mode....

I know it sorta looks like it's working while you're doing it....and it almost makes sense.....but I think it's wrong.

So lets agree to disagree on this one ;)


This is why I tried to "stretch" the Backup table into the main when I was done....This is REAL data....the big DRAG is that it's real but kinda worthless cause the resolution is gone....Back to square 1.....At this point you might as well just GUESS at the numbers.

I've played with the tables and after alot of "photoshop" type stuff on the 2 VE tables....I've finally crafted something that yields great results....

This guy should pay me $1,500 bucks for this tune for the time I have into it!

I hate playing games where you have to make up the rules as you go.:bash:

Anyone out there see it how I see it???:bash:

Chuck CoW

Believe it or not, I do/did. However, if you have the opportunity, I'd like to see the results of a back to back comparison of your way vs the tutorial - comparing the difference in the tune, SOTP, and/or Dyno.

Winning method will find it's way into the tutorial and receive a "muahaha" smiley.

[Garry]

I still don't see your problem --- if you set up two BEN maps, one with the units of the BackupVE table, one with units of the MainVE table, there should not be any problem with the paste&multiply ... !?

[Chuck CoW]

I still don't see your problem --- if you set up two BEN maps, one with the units of the BackupVE table, one with units of the MainVE table, there should not be any problem with the paste&multiply ... !?


Ok, I was sort of confused at first....Take it from the begining with the basics of "auto VE on a 98"

Set up speed density tune....(knowing that the main VE is disabled and the backup is to be used)

log a run with the BEN CALC factor....

The BEN CALC FACTOR is ONLY based on the values the pcm is presently using (BACKUP VE) and your LM1

SO, when you copy/paste the BEN CALC over the BACKUP VE you have the BACKUP VE (which is the table that is fueling the motor durring this procedure) being modified by what we know to be the corect amount based on the wideband.....

When you take the other map (ben calc with matching lables for the main VE) WHAT IS IT THAT THESE NUMBERS REPRESENT????

You are likely gonna paste the ben calc table from the scanner and past it over the main VE right? BUT, think about it....If the motor is not fueling from the main VE, but rather the backup....then (although it FEELS right) the numbers in the main ve are wrong.... REMEMBER WHAT WE ARE DOING AND WHY.....The ben calc is based on the difference between what is commanded in the backup VE (assuming SD) and the actual results of the wideband....(ie. these values ONLY represent the error of the backup ve....SO OF WHAT VALUE IS IT TO PASTE the BACKUP VE OVER THE MAIN VE if the Main VE is turned off and not functioning....???

Follow me here....This is turning into some sort of paradoxial time wharp episode of the twilight zone where you stand between two mirrors and try to count how many copies of yourself you see in the 2 mirrors...:nixweiss:

EVERYTHING FEELS RIGHT...or is it????

I'm not looking to pick a fight or challenge anyone here....but, we're doing all this work based on the backup VE with limited resolution and the motor is only gonna see all this hard work if the MAF happens to fail....right?

I'm trying to get the MAIN VE to within 0-3%.....but.....doing it like this is likely to produce 2 problems.....error in excess of 3% and big fluctuations...or at least unnecessary ones.....

To sum it up...When AUTO VE TUNING in SD MODE...the MAIN VE IS DEAD.

ANY OPERATION done using the BACKUP VE ben calc numbers (regradless of weather you're scanning BEN CALC in two different tables or not) is apples and oranges....they LOOK related..but, really have nothing to do with each other....Just cause you're scanning a BAN CALC table that LOOKS like the MAIN VE does not mean the numbers are valid...

Here's the deal....While you can do this to come CLOSE....I'm aspiring to get my MAIN VE between 0-3% and I just don't see how it is possible (although it might "feel or look good" to do it this way)

HEY ROSS! What do you think about a custom o/s for 98 that does not reference the backup VE in SD mode???? Should be easy right? Just like restoring dual spark maps! right??? :master:

Stay Tuned,
Chuck CoW

[TAQuickness]

I hear you Chuck - I'm a big fan of splitting hairs myself. But until a method exists to tune off the Main VE, it's only going to be "best-guess".

[Chuck CoW]

I hear you Chuck - I'm a big fan of splitting hairs myself. But until a method exists to tune off the Main VE, it's only going to be "best-guess".


Well, like I said...it's a good thing I'm good with photoshop too!

I had to hand blend things..and I found myself editing areas of the MAIN VE after I turned on the maf....

When I finished it was perfect....but.....tons of time:mad:

Thanks for your input boys!
Chuck CoW

[SSpdDmon]

When I said "fill" on the first page, I meant you select the 20, 25, and 30kPa columns and then click on the blue fill arrows that point left and right in the toolbar. That's how you'd do the 25kPa coumn. Then to do the 35kPa column, you'd select the 30, 35, and 40. Then, going back and hand smoothing isn't too big of an issue. The problem I have with running the dual maps is, the car is using the backup map. So, how do you know the changes you're making to the main VE are right? Oh well, sounds like your done. Good to hear you finally got it...

[Chuck CoW]

When I said "fill" on the first page, I meant you select the 20, 25, and 30kPa columns and then click on the blue fill arrows that point left and right in the toolbar. That's how you'd do the 25kPa coumn. Then to do the 35kPa column, you'd select the 30, 35, and 40. Then, going back and hand smoothing isn't too big of an issue. The problem I have with running the dual maps is, the car is using the backup map. So, how do you know the changes you're making to the main VE are right? Oh well, sounds like your done. Good to hear you finally got it...

YES! to quote you....

"The problem I have with running the dual maps is, the car is using the backup map. So, how do you know the changes you're making to the main VE are right?"

This has been my issue right along! How do you know its right..even if you're using the 2 scanner maps....it still isn't right......

Almost feels like we're using LS1 edit again! CLOSE IS GOOD ENOUGH!

Chuck CoW

[Doc]

Been there done this deal. This whole deal drove me to a newer OS. I feel your pain Chuck. For the time you put into that tune you might have as well just upgraded the PCM-as big of an ordeal as that was-it probably is right along the amount of effort you spent on massaging that turd.;)

[98SS2836]

This is why my car is in OLSD. I have a 50+ hour a week job. I dont have time to tune 98 cars like my own. It runs better in OLSD than with the maf so it stays like this. It makes the same power with SD and with the MAF the graphs over lay each other. So I just leave it in OLSD.