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GMPX
April 19th, 2005, 11:54 PM
O.K,

So what's this all about?.
In the next update of EFILive you guys will be so impressed with a new Auto Tuning feature.
This does NOT rely on LTFT data, nor do you need a spread sheet to make it work......and it even works under WOT!!.

Let me put up a teaser.......

This is my own car which has a smallish 218/224 @ 113LSA cam running the PCM in SD mode (MAF in garbage bin).
I have only ever had time to tune this thing at WOT on the dyno and that was it (been too busy sitting in front of a PC).
Now, my VE table is the stock one from the factory apart from the WOT stuff.
All these tests and tunes were done with the PCM forced into Open Loop so I was not fighting the STFT and LTFT.

Take a look at the last screen shot. This shows my AFR at light throttle WAY out, commanded is 14.63:1, but the WBO2 is at 12.36:1.
The engine was pretty much running like that everywhere from idle to about 70% load, but actually also lean at some points. (Click picture for a larger view).

So here is how I tuned this engine.
Fit two kids into the back seat, drive 10mins to the post office to send some mail with EFILive logging in the front seat.
Then working some EFILive magic (the blurred out PID) I simply adjusted the entire VE table (basically a 3 click operation) and flashed the new file into the car.

Now this is NOT fudged or fiddled, but now checkout the AFR's for pretty much the same RPM and load point.
This was done with just 10mins of driving (including sooking kids) and a few mouse clicks!!.
(Click second picture for a larger view).

The first picture shows the changes made to the VE table from the original VE table to the 'corrected' one.

Hopefully should get this car onto a dyno soon to run it through all RPM and load points in the VE to map the entire thing in I would say less than 1/2hr. 8)

Cheers,
Ross

Dirk Diggler
April 20th, 2005, 12:03 AM
F5 F5 F5 F5F5 F5F5 F5F5 F5F5 F5F5 F5F5 F5F5 F5F5 F5F5 F5 That is what i am doing you download page right now. I bet this feature is better than sex and a six pack, well close enough fromt he looks of it it looks like it is within +/-1%

Bruce Melton
April 20th, 2005, 12:10 AM
Well, I am ready to play.
This sounds fantastic and a great alternative for those of us not capable of deciphering every nuance and making the best choices.

Will there be a quick how to?

GMPX
April 20th, 2005, 12:12 AM
Before you get too excited, two things are needed......

1 - A WBO2.
2 - MAF in garbage bin (or unplugged anyway).

This only works in Speed Density mode.
With this release will also be the availibilty of our modded O.S's that allow the twin spark maps (and more) when Mafless.
This will require a full flash (which means a commercial or workshop license).

Cheers,
Ross

GMPX
April 20th, 2005, 12:14 AM
Will there be a quick how to?

Yes for sure, because there is some pretty fancy stuff that can be setup to ensure you only want to manipulate the VE table with valid readings.

Cheers,
Ross

Dirk Diggler
April 20th, 2005, 12:14 AM
If i want the twin spark maps for SD tuning do we have the optiion to select 1 or 2 bar or is it just 2 bar only

GMPX
April 20th, 2005, 12:16 AM
If i want the twin spark maps for SD tuning do we have the optiion to select 1 or 2 bar or is it just 2 bar only

Twin maps will be for 1 or 2 bar.
Though our 2bar program is undergoing testing for the moment.

Cheers,
Ross

Dirk Diggler
April 20th, 2005, 12:18 AM
great. my maf is allready in the garbage and I am not running any boost

GMPX
April 20th, 2005, 12:20 AM
great. my maf is allready in the garbage and I am not running any boost

Yippie Dirk, spread the word, the garbage is the best place for it.

Cheers,
Ross

Dirk Diggler
April 20th, 2005, 12:24 AM
Ive been running mafless for about a year now. Got some silicone hose 4" a 85 mm lid, a fast 90/ nick williams 90 and havent looked back.

Bruce Melton
April 20th, 2005, 12:54 AM
My understanding is that for those of us who want to reatain the MAF it is possible to tune VE mafless, then reconnect for ongoing use? Is this the case with this autotune option?

"This only works in Speed Density mode.
With this release will also be the availibilty of our modded O.S's that allow the twin spark maps (and more) when Mafless.
This will require a full flash (which means a commercial or workshop license"

If I have a PLX and the ability to disable MAF (temp) can I use this with Personal edition?

Dirk Diggler
April 20th, 2005, 01:02 AM
My understanding is that for those of us who want to reatain the MAF it is possible to tune maffless then reconnect for ongoing use? Is this the case with this autotune option?

"This only works in Speed Density mode.
With this release will also be the availibilty of our modded O.S's that allow the twin spark maps (and more) when Mafless.
This will require a full flash (which means a commercial or workshop license"

If I have a PLX and the ability to disable MAF (temp) can I use this with Personal edition?

Bruce yes you will still be able to do this. On tech (HumpinSS me) have discussed this to no end. THe process is pretty easy. Tune your ve table mafless once you get it dialed in plug the maf back up and set the fail to 0 this puts you back in SD mode what you do now is create a map down the left you want maf frequency on the top you want rpm=8000 and your data will be dynamic air in grams/sec. This will build a new maf table for you which you will be able to copy and paste back to the maf frequency table for ongoing use.....

GMPX
April 20th, 2005, 01:16 AM
My understanding is that for those of us who want to reatain the MAF it is possible to tune VE mafless, then reconnect for ongoing use? Is this the case with this autotune option?

Mmm, how many Hollywood babes go back to get the implants removed? :wink:

How many people fit the MAF back once removed?. There is really no need Bruce if you are running an OS with the twin spark maps enabled, the engines (esp cammed) are much happier without it.

Cheers,
Ross

Dirk Diggler
April 20th, 2005, 01:19 AM
My understanding is that for those of us who want to reatain the MAF it is possible to tune VE mafless, then reconnect for ongoing use? Is this the case with this autotune option?

Mmm, how many Hollywood babes go back to get the implants removed? :wink:

How many people fit the MAF back once removed?. There is really no need Bruce if you are running an OS with the twin spark maps enabled, the engines (esp cammed) are much happier without it.

Cheers,
Ross


Tis is true Tis is true. After removing the maf my throttle response was noticably quicker adn the car felt stronger. This is one reason i havent went back to it

Bruce Melton
April 20th, 2005, 01:23 AM
I just feel "naked" witout the comfort of the MAF filtering the environmental changes, as in air density. Is this unfounded?

Dirk Diggler
April 20th, 2005, 01:25 AM
I just feel "naked" witout the comfort of the MAF filtering the environmental changes, as in air density. Is this unfounded?

Air density as in barometric pressure?

Bruce Melton
April 20th, 2005, 01:29 AM
I just feel "naked" witout the comfort of the MAF filtering the environmental changes, as in air density. Is this unfounded?

Air density as in barometric pressure?
And here in WI temperature.

Dirk Diggler
April 20th, 2005, 01:42 AM
Air density is measure by the map and air temp is measure by the iat so you would still be covered

SinisterSS
April 20th, 2005, 03:23 AM
The IAT sensor is built into my MAF. :evil:

I do like how well my car runs with the fine tuned VE table in SD mode. :D

dbaxter_ss
April 20th, 2005, 03:32 AM
Before you get too excited, two things are needed......

1 - A WBO2.
2 - MAF in garbage bin (or unplugged anyway).

This only works in Speed Density mode.
With this release will also be the availibilty of our modded O.S's that allow the twin spark maps (and more) when Mafless.
This will require a full flash (which means a commercial or workshop license).

Cheers,
Ross

How do the unfortunate people like me out here that live in states with emmisions checks get away with NO MAF?

Oh trust me I love how my car runs in SD, but every year I have to flash a crappy tune on just to pass inspection. is there a way?

John Skiba
April 20th, 2005, 03:33 AM
The IAT sensor is built into my MAF. :evil:

I do like how well my car runs with the fine tuned VE table in SD mode. :D

Nothing a drill, gromet & new IAT sensor can't fix. ;)

Paul, you have a line on IAT sensors? You can probably sell a few with this upcoming upgrade. :D

Bruce Melton
April 20th, 2005, 03:38 AM
Isn't the IAT temp factored into the MAF output to the PCM?

John Skiba
April 20th, 2005, 03:49 AM
Isn't the IAT temp factored into the MAF output to the PCM?

The IAT sensor is built into the 85mm MAF sensor. If you look inside the sensor you can see a little black "thingy" sticking out. The MAF connector is 5 wire, 2 of which are used for the IAT sensor. When GM went to the 85mm MAF from the 75mm metal MAF, they moved the IAT sensor into the MAF.

Dirk Diggler
April 20th, 2005, 03:51 AM
Set the fail gm/sec to 0 and you retain the IAT and the maf is still physically there

Bruce Melton
April 20th, 2005, 03:53 AM
Isn't the IAT temp factored into the MAF output to the PCM?

The IAT sensor is built into the 85mm MAF sensor. If you look inside the sensor you can see a little black "thingy" sticking out. The MAF connector is 5 wire, 2 of which are used for the IAT sensor. When GM went to the 85mm MAF from the 75mm metal MAF, they moved the IAT sensor into the MAF.

Yes, so the IAT input is through the MAF calculation and if you do not have a MAF the IAT sensor is useless?

Ira
April 20th, 2005, 05:57 AM
Just get the IAT from a 2000 Camaro which mounts in a grommet in the air cleaner.

Ira

Bruce Melton
April 20th, 2005, 06:13 AM
Ira,
I have a 2000 Vette which has an independant IAT sensor in a grommet on the air bridge but if I am running mafless it will have no relevant output into the MAF calculation?

Dirk Diggler
April 20th, 2005, 06:23 AM
Nope it sure wont

1morews6
April 20th, 2005, 07:06 AM
So the fact I live in a State where temp/humidity/rain/snow/and all the other crazy weather can happen within an hour of each other has no bearing on if I should run a MAF? I do drive the car on clear days but humidity can be 99% or 0% and temps can be 10 - 110. Add to that the fact I would like to run a N02 150 shot sometimes. Can I still safely run without a MAF? I really do not want to screw with the car everytime I open the bottle.


Thx

Dirk Diggler
April 20th, 2005, 07:11 AM
So the fact I live in a State where temp/humidity/rain/snow/and all the other crazy weather can happen within an hour of each other has no bearing on if I should run a MAF? I do drive the car on clear days but humidity can be 99% or 0% and temps can be 10 - 110. Add to that the fact I would like to run a N02 150 shot sometimes. Can I still safely run without a MAF? I really do not want to screw with the car everytime I open the bottle.


Thx

A wet shot can run without the maf but a dry shot it wont happen. Unplug the maf and tune the ve table for a little see how you like it, see how it responds to weather changes and decide if you like it or not

Tydriver
April 22nd, 2005, 02:16 PM
I think I am going to pee my pants..


Nice work guys..

AllCammedUp
April 24th, 2005, 06:55 AM
Good gravy, guys - this will be amazing. I'm gonna have to dig out my old IAT, drill a hole in my air bridge and go back to it, it looks like! :)

Thanks so much to you and Paul for putting stuff like this in!

One question about the EFILive custom OS's.... will there need to be custom OS's for each vehcle type (truck, F-body, Y-body) and tranny choice, or will one fit them all or what?

Also - will the '98 crowd eventually be able to flash a EFILive custom OS back to their PCM as well?

GMPX
April 24th, 2005, 08:50 AM
One question about the EFILive custom OS's.... will there need to be custom OS's for each vehcle type (truck, F-body, Y-body) and tranny choice, or will one fit them all or what?

All O.S's will be shipped without any calibrations, you basically read or have a copy of your existing O.S, program the new EFILive O.S in, then flash your existing tun file in.
Where this will not work is if you are going from say a 2000 O.S to a newer 2002 O.S, you won't be able to keep your existing file.



Also - will the '98 crowd eventually be able to flash a EFILive custom OS back to their PCM as well?

There might be 'some' features we could offer, but don't hold your breath.
Sounds to me like there is a REALLY good business opertunity for somebody to sell a 1997/1998 to 1999+ PCM conversion kit!!.

Cheers,
Ross

PowerKraus
April 24th, 2005, 09:34 AM
That is great to hear ! This product is leaving others in the dust, not to mention the excellent customer support. Keep up the great work!

Robert

daveb
April 24th, 2005, 06:29 PM
Will there be a way to automate some of the configs into the modified OS? To assist in the merge as I expect different OS's may be common place.

Blacky
April 24th, 2005, 08:58 PM
Will there be a way to automate some of the configs into the modified OS? To assist in the merge as I expect different OS's may be common place.

Absolutely, we have developed an integrated scripting tool that allows common/repetitive calibration tasks to be handled automatically. Even across different Operating systems. The scripting is available in the pre-release V7.1.9 version on our downlaods page.

We are considering releasing script files that perform most of the calibration updates for our custom operating systems.

Regards
Paul

Steve Bryant
April 25th, 2005, 09:17 AM
I can't wait to try this. :D I am installing new heads and valve train gear and my truck is down for at least two more days if it will ever stop raining here. :cry:

All my best,

Steve

BowlingSS
April 26th, 2005, 03:12 AM
Any news yet on when 7.1.9 will be released?

Bill

AllCammedUp
April 26th, 2005, 07:40 AM
Thanks Ross!

Blacky
April 26th, 2005, 09:03 AM
Any news yet on when 7.1.9 will be released?

Bill

Right now:
7.1.9 is in pre-release,
7.1.10 is in beta

Once 7.1.10 is considered complete, it will be changed to 7.2 and released publicly.
We have the public release scheduled for the week beginning May 09, 2005

We are putting all effort into hitting that date but things can go wrong and that date may slip. Right now we believe that we release in that week.

Reagrds
Paul

BowlingSS
April 26th, 2005, 09:45 AM
Thanks for the update.

Bill
:D

johnsZ06
April 28th, 2005, 01:11 AM
This is going to take away the fun of the many hours of constant logging and tuning sesions! http://www.z06vette.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

BowlingSS
April 28th, 2005, 06:43 AM
This is going to take away the fun of the many hours of constant logging and tuning sesions! http://www.z06vette.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

I am sure you could still do it the old way.. :D :D :D

Bill

69firebird
May 3rd, 2005, 09:46 AM
so this will only work with with the commercial version? no chance of getting it just for the people at home with the personal version?

and this will support a 2 or 3 bar map setup, so those of us wanting to run FI will be able to take full advantage of this??

This is sounding great
Thanks
ed

VortechC5
May 4th, 2005, 05:08 AM
Will there be a "how to" for using AutoTune (with and without a MAF)?

Tordne
May 7th, 2005, 05:29 AM
Is this Auto-Tune capability in the new 7.2.1 pre-release :?:

jsttry
May 7th, 2005, 12:59 PM
Yes.

Tordne
May 7th, 2005, 01:39 PM
Want to give me a clue as to where? I can't see anything in the documentation (doesn't appear to be updated), and can't see any new menus etc. in either the Scan or Tune tools.

Cheers.

Blacky
May 7th, 2005, 06:19 PM
Its' not a menu item as such.
It's a sequence of steps that you need to perform. Each step in the sequence has a corresponding task that can now be performed by the Scan Tool software.

A tutorial will be posted soon.

Regards
Paul

jsttry
May 7th, 2005, 11:29 PM
Tried out the new auto tune feature today and was pasting as factor with label as suggested by a beta tester but have found that if you past a cell that has a 0% LTFT then it kind of muddles things up and puts the VE table out of whack.

Need to somehow modify the filter to exclude cells @ 0%.


EDIT: Duh, I was using the LTFT MAPs instead of the new BEN maps. No need for another filter as the BEN maps show 1.00 if it cell doesn't need to be changed.

jsttry
May 7th, 2005, 11:50 PM
Ignore my ramblings. They were totally wrong.

Have since worked out the right way to do it. Need to command Open Loop and will see how we go this time.

SinisterSS
May 8th, 2005, 02:00 AM
jsttry, do you have a wideband O2 sensor? A wideband is the key piece to performing the "auto-tune" steps.

One uses the wideband to measure commanded vs. actual air fuel ratios. This difference factor is then copied and pasted into the VE. When I've done the "auto-tune", the commanded vs. actual air:fuel ratio is typically in the 0.98 to 1.02 range which means my VE is +/- two percent off.

If you're using the LTFTs to tune instead if a wideband, copy and paste the table in sections - skipping over the cells with zeros in them. And save up for a wideband!

:wink:

bink
May 8th, 2005, 03:36 AM
jsttry, do you have a wideband O2 sensor? A wideband is the key piece to performing the "auto-tune" steps.

One uses the wideband to measure commanded vs. actual air fuel ratios. This difference factor is then copied and pasted into the VE. When I've done the "auto-tune", the commanded vs. actual air:fuel ratio is typically in the 0.98 to 1.02 range which means my VE is +/- two percent off.



This is very similar the method NoGo posted on LS1Tech. Worked pretty well for me. EFILive sure makes things easier and more exact (to boot)!!

Cheers,
joel

dbaxter_ss
May 8th, 2005, 04:08 AM
Should this be an average of both ltft bank 1 and ltft bank 2 not just 1 of the banks?

http://www.purplegto.com/files/veavg.PNG

Just checking

Draco
May 8th, 2005, 04:11 AM
I'm new to this, so dont shoot me if I'm wrong, but I believe the "magic PID" is the Base Efficiency Numerator calculation for the various wideband sensors. This should give a VE multiplication factor for each MAP:RPM cell. Going to try it today :)

bink
May 8th, 2005, 06:23 AM
I'm new to this, so dont shoot me if I'm wrong, but I believe the "magic PID" is the Base Efficiency Numerator calculation for the various wideband sensors. This should give a VE multiplication factor for each MAP:RPM cell. Going to try it today :)

Great! Let us know how things go. :D

Cheers,
joel

Draco
May 8th, 2005, 07:18 AM
Well, my MAF is still connected right now but will be disconnecting it soon to do an SD tune. I have a Wideband Commander so I had to create my own AFR and Base Efficiency PID for this particular wideband. Here is a screenie of my MAP vs Base Efficiency numerator map, which can be pasted into my VE table as a factor to update the tune.

This seems so easy it makes me laugh out loud and wonder if I am doing this right or not.

Tordne
May 8th, 2005, 07:47 AM
Could someone please post the magic steps to performing this auto-tune? I have just recently gone MAFless and have some issues to resolve. I have some dyno time booked today and would really like to use this new functionality if possible.

I am already in SD mode, and have a WB02.

Is this tune done under normal driving conditions, that is without commanding the AFR to 13:1?
Does it have to be done in Close Loop?
Do you disable DFCO or Lean Cruise?

Would really appreciate it someone could enlighten me.

Cheers.

dbaxter_ss
May 9th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Not sure why everyone is saying you have to cut the factor and paste in groups.

I just did a complete block copy 800rpm - 6000, 15-105 MAP from scan to tune, just make sure you select the identicle cells from one to the other.

This ROCKS!!!! HpWHO???? lsWHAT??? ;) EFI!! EFI!!! EFI!!!!

Dang I was close doing it the old fashioned way. Had to just sit down and read the thread ( OVER AND OVER )

AAAAAhhhhh to bads its already so late I would go out and flash this puppy and go for a quick ride.

http://www.purplegto.com/files/new_ve_autotune.PNG

SinisterSS
May 9th, 2005, 01:55 PM
Haven't had a chance to "auto VE" my latest tune yet.

Attached is the BEN factor using one of my early tunes done the "old fashioned way."

Next time, the "new way" will be much faster and more accurate!

Looks like I need more data @ 8000 rpm. :D

SinisterSS
May 9th, 2005, 01:56 PM
Not sure why everyone is saying you have to cut the factor and paste in groups.

Cut and paste in groups is only necessary (to avoid the zeros) if you're using LTFTs to tweak the VE.

For wideband, copy the entire table. :D :D :D :D

Tordne
May 9th, 2005, 01:59 PM
SinisterSS, you must have a pretty serious engine if you are able to turn it to 7600, let alone 8000.

SinisterSS
May 9th, 2005, 02:00 PM
There's nothing to see here, move along. :wink:

Tordne
May 9th, 2005, 02:05 PM
Lets just call it a very serious valve train, and balls of steel to keep the foot down that long :lol:

Scoota
May 9th, 2005, 03:34 PM
To answer Tordne's question.

It’s been a while since I set my laptop up for autotune so Paul or Ross please feel free to edit my mistakes.

Firstly you need to set you pids, If you go into Calculated pids you need to set the Base Efficiency Numerator 1, for me I use an Autronic wide band so mine are set to (Base Efficiency Numerator 1 Autronic) If you are using a LM-1 or PLX Etc, then set the Base Efficiency Numerator 1 in relation to your W/B Afr. If you have been using the W/B to tune in the past then your Wide Band AFR 1 Autronic and Commanded Air Fuel Ratio (as mine is) will have already been set, if not you will need to set those pids. Depending on the witch pin you are connecting you External Voltage to, you will need to set the External analog Voltage 1 or 2 in you External PID selection.
The next step is to open up a blank map (F11) and select an unused map page (like ‘C’ for me was blank). Now enter the map properties (ctrl+enter).
In the Data section in Parameter: scroll down to (0) Base Efficiency Numerator 1- (factor) and select it.
Now go to column and scroll down to (0) Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure (KPA) in the column section. Now open up the EV table in your tuning tool and hi-light the 400 rpm row (just click on 400) now right click it and copy with labels, go back to the map properties and click Paste Labels The Column labels should show 15-105.
Now enter the Row section and scroll down to (0) Engine RPM (RPM) and select it in the Row: section. As we did previously go back to the VE tables and click on the 15Kpa to hi-light all the 15Kpa variable down the RPM scale, now right click and Copy with Labels and go back to the map properties in the scan tool and click Paste Labels. Row labels should show 400-8000 rpm. Now save these properties in the ‘save as’ and call it what ever you like, (Autotune) is what I have saved mine to.
Now with the W/B AFR meter connected to your FlashScan select (in the map page) the Show Average Cell values (ctrl+-) or click on the X with the line above it next to the “N’, you should be in the map page titled BEN_AUT1 (Average), It will show differently with what ever W/B AFR you are using,
Now go back to your tuning tool and select Fuel_trim_Closed Loop Temp Enable. Set these values to 140 degC to stop the engine from going into closed loop. As Ross has stated in previous posts you need to set all the parameters for SD mode. Once you have done that Flash that computer and start recording in the map page, The idea is to highlight every cell without rapid accelerator movement, when you have finished logging press stop while there is some load on the engine so you don’t disrupt the correction factor.
Hi-light the page and click Copy With Labels under edit and go to the VE tables and Paste as Factor with Labels. Under edit.
You should be on your way with AutoTune.

Don’t forget to place the system back into closed loop when you flash the final tune.

I hope this helps.

Cheers, Scotty, ChipControl.

Tordne
May 9th, 2005, 03:44 PM
Thanks very much Scoota. That is an excellent write up on what is required.

I have kind of been doing this in an Excel spreadsheet (thanks to Steve Bryant), as has everyone else... The new feature in the Scan tool to apply a filter I expect will help greatly.

I will be off to the dyno tomorrow to see if I can hit all the cells and finally put the VE table to bed, until the next modification of course.

Thanks again.

Scoota
May 9th, 2005, 04:28 PM
Sorry Trordne,
When you go into the VE table you need to hi-light them as well and then paste as factor with labels. It's totally up to you whether you smooth out the cells. I’ve achieved the results where Commanded AFR and actual AFR are identical after smoothing although its not really nessesary.

Cheers, Scotty,

Tordne
May 9th, 2005, 04:58 PM
Scoota,

Did you re-enable the DFCO options also? When you applied the smoothing, did you apply it with a 'weight' of 100?

Did you, or is it best to, run through this process a number of times (i.e. 2-3 times), or is once enough?

Cheers.

Scoota
May 9th, 2005, 06:21 PM
Always re-enable DFCO, Why suck more fuel than you need to. As a rule, I set the smoothing weight to about '10' and smooth it gradually, over smoothing can send you chasing you tail over Air fuel Ratios. Look it doesn’t hurt to go over the VE’s twice just for some fine tuning, ‘I do’. Also the Idea is to not get the air intake temperatures too hot, you will find yourself only doing a couple rows of variables at a time, you don’t want to have too much heat soak in the engine and air temp or you will definitely be chasing that tail, just remember to start logging each row where you ended, say copy and past 2-3 rows at a time, once you’ve done all the rows then smooth them somewhat. Then flash it in and double check it. If you find the A/F to be spot-on then there really is no nead to chew-up Dyno time,

Good Luck, Hop this helps.

Cheers, Scotty.

dbaxter_ss
May 10th, 2005, 10:02 AM
HAHAHA!!! Dont get your intake to hot, guess us folks with magnachargers will be always chasing our tails.

BowlingSS
May 10th, 2005, 10:25 AM
Will there be a "how to" for using AutoTune (with and without a MAF)?

I would like to know this also.
Thanks,
Bill
:D

Scoota
May 10th, 2005, 02:02 PM
AutoTune will only work in SD mode (mafless).
As Ross has stated at the start of the this topic, The best place for the Maf is in the bin. :wink:

bink
July 7th, 2005, 05:49 AM
Shouldn't this thread be a "sticky"?

Has anyone successfully run MAFLESS (SD) with a fly-by-wire throttle ??

Cheers,
joel

SinisterSS
July 7th, 2005, 07:02 AM
Shouldn't this thread be a "sticky"?

Has anyone successfully run MAFLESS (SD) with a fly-by-wire throttle ??

Cheers,
joel

Agree and yes. :D

bink
July 7th, 2005, 10:02 AM
Shouldn't this thread be a "sticky"?

Has anyone successfully run MAFLESS (SD) with a fly-by-wire throttle ??

Cheers,
joel

Agree and yes. :D

Thank you. :D

Sticky??? Blacky, GMPX?

JxxxOxxxE
July 7th, 2005, 12:00 PM
maybe I missed it somewhere, but is this remotely possible without a WB, can i work off the narrows or not?

Black02SS
July 7th, 2005, 12:56 PM
No, you must have a wideband.

bink
July 8th, 2005, 03:42 PM
Thanks for the Sticky! :D

Cheers,
joel

Blackbird
July 17th, 2005, 06:52 AM
I had to go with the competition to tune my 98 a few months back due to no support yet from eflive :( was a bummer, but gotta do what ya gotta do.

I do still have my trusty efilive cable sitting in my laptop bag.

can I work this auto ve and maf magic with just efilive V7 and then export results to hand enter into my "other" tuning product????

Tordne
July 17th, 2005, 07:10 AM
There are a couple of key things that are needed to do the Auto Tune, from my perspective.

1) You need to be MAFless - running in Speed Density mode
2) You need to have a Wide Band O2 sensor - basically so that you can compare commanded vs. actual AFR's
3) I'm sure this is dumbed down, but basically what the Auto Tune process is doing is looking at the commanded vs. actual AFR's and calculating the difference (factor) between the two. So that, for example, in cell 4000RPM x 55kPa your factor could be 1.10, which would mean that you are over fuelling by 10% at that specific point.

In EFILive there is a MAP that calculates all these factors for you, and allows you to paste back into the tuning tool using these factors to correct your VE table. Prior to this being available within the EFILive product it was being done in Excel Spreadsheets, so ultimately you still have that option available irrespective of the tuning tool you use.

All you would need to be able to do is build two tables, one for commanded AFR's and one for actual. Then compare the two to see how far out your actual AFR's are.

Hope that makes some sense, or if I am wrong, please flame me...

Hopefully you will have your 98 support soon anyway... Paul and Ross are working hard on this as we speak!

Cheers,

BowlingSS
July 17th, 2005, 08:12 AM
There are a couple of key things that are needed to do the Auto Tune, from my perspective.

1) You need to be MAFless - running in Speed Density mode
2) You need to have a Wide Band O2 sensor - basically so that you can compare commanded vs. actual AFR's
3) I'm sure this is dumbed down, but basically what the Auto Tune process is doing is looking at the commanded vs. actual AFR's and calculating the difference (factor) between the two. So that, for example, in cell 4000RPM x 55kPa your factor could be 1.10, which would mean that you are over fuelling by 10% at that specific point.

In EFILive there is a MAP that calculates all these factors for you, and allows you to paste back into the tuning tool using these factors to correct your VE table. Prior to this being available within the EFILive product it was being done in Excel Spreadsheets, so ultimately you still have that option available irrespective of the tuning tool you use.

All you would need to be able to do is build two tables, one for commanded AFR's and one for actual. Then compare the two to see how far out your actual AFR's are.

Hope that makes some sense, or if I am wrong, please flame me...

Hopefully you will have your 98 support soon anyway... Paul and Ross are working hard on this as we speak!

Cheers,

I just set C2901 to 0 to disable the MAF. Is that OK?

Bill

Tordne
July 17th, 2005, 08:26 AM
I just set C2901 to 0 to disable the MAF. Is that OK?

Bill

That should definitely do it :D.

Blacky
July 17th, 2005, 09:09 AM
can I work this auto ve and maf magic with just efilive V7 and then export results to hand enter into my "other" tuning product????

Yes, you can, I think you could even just copy/paste data between EFILive and HPT.
There is a small problem of the tables begin transposed, so you'll need an extra step via Excel to transpose the data prior to pasting it into HPT.

To transpose a block of data In Excel, highligh the block in Excel, copy it, then select a blank cell and select "paste special" , check the "Transpose" check box.

Paul

Black02SS
July 17th, 2005, 11:01 AM
can I work this auto ve and maf magic with just efilive V7 and then export results to hand enter into my "other" tuning product????

Yes, you can, I think you could even just copy/paste data between EFILive and HPT.
There is a small problem of the tables begin transposed, so you'll need an extra step via Excel to transpose the data prior to pasting it into HPT.

To transpose a block of data In Excel, highligh the block in Excel, copy it, then select a blank cell and select "paste special" , check the "Transpose" check box.

Paul

Negative, if you set it up correctly, there is no need for excel... ;) I have done it several times with no errors...

Blackbird
July 17th, 2005, 11:33 AM
sweeeeet :)

thanks for the info everyone.

now to go hookup the WB to the AC switch so I can get crackin :)

Black02SS
July 17th, 2005, 02:29 PM
Why are you using the AC switch?

TAQuickness
July 17th, 2005, 11:55 PM
I think he ment the AC coolant pressure input. It's one of the 2 0-5v inputs to the PCM.

Not a bad idea if you can live without AC.

Black02SS
July 18th, 2005, 12:17 AM
Ok, but why? Whats the point? If you are tunign with EFI live, then you will have the interface cable with the connection, not needing to use the ac for a input. I did that before I had live when I was using Edit.

Dirk Diggler
July 18th, 2005, 02:06 AM
Ok, but why? Whats the point? If you are tunign with EFI live, then you will have the interface cable with the connection, not needing to use the ac for a input. I did that before I had live when I was using Edit.


He doesnt have the cable with the inputs. He has an old Atap/bi directional cable

Black02SS
July 18th, 2005, 07:33 AM
Thanks for the input. I was assuming he was runing FlashScan and didn't need it. I'll go back to my hole now..

Blackbird
July 20th, 2005, 08:39 AM
hehehe, yep everyone above got it right.

one of the bummers of owning a 98.

gotta do some things the hard way :)

BowlingSS
August 11th, 2005, 11:41 PM
I am glad I have a 2001..

Bill

BowlingSS
September 2nd, 2005, 02:42 AM
Any new releases on the AutoTune?

Bill
:D

bikealarmblair
August 9th, 2011, 06:46 AM
O.K,

So what's this all about?.
In the next update of EFILive you guys will be so impressed with a new Auto Tuning feature.
This does NOT rely on LTFT data, nor do you need a spread sheet to make it work......and it even works under WOT!!.

Let me put up a teaser.......

This is my own car which has a smallish 218/224 @ 113LSA cam running the PCM in SD mode (MAF in garbage bin).
I have only ever had time to tune this thing at WOT on the dyno and that was it (been too busy sitting in front of a PC).
Now, my VE table is the stock one from the factory apart from the WOT stuff.
All these tests and tunes were done with the PCM forced into Open Loop so I was not fighting the STFT and LTFT.

Take a look at the last screen shot. This shows my AFR at light throttle WAY out, commanded is 14.63:1, but the WBO2 is at 12.36:1.
The engine was pretty much running like that everywhere from idle to about 70% load, but actually also lean at some points. (Click picture for a larger view).

So here is how I tuned this engine.
Fit two kids into the back seat, drive 10mins to the post office to send some mail with EFILive logging in the front seat.
Then working some EFILive magic (the blurred out PID) I simply adjusted the entire VE table (basically a 3 click operation) and flashed the new file into the car.

Now this is NOT fudged or fiddled, but now checkout the AFR's for pretty much the same RPM and load point.
This was done with just 10mins of driving (including sooking kids) and a few mouse clicks!!.
(Click second picture for a larger view).

The first picture shows the changes made to the VE table from the original VE table to the 'corrected' one.

Hopefully should get this car onto a dyno soon to run it through all RPM and load points in the VE to map the entire thing in I would say less than 1/2hr. 8)

Cheers,
Ross

Is there an idiots click by click guide for this?
I have EFi Live V2 & software v7.5 & want to start sorting my map out. Engine is an 04 gen3 ls1 with a thunderracing cam fitted into an E46 BMW

Thanks in advance
Blair (UK)

ScarabEpic22
August 9th, 2011, 06:59 AM
Blair, check out the Calc.VET tutorial that WeatherManShawn created with the help of a few other members. Its as close to the Auto Tune feature (that was never released) as you can get. Read the tutorial a few times, spend the time setting up your PIDs to log, have your wideband working, go for a few drives, the apply the data to your tune.

Check these links out:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16413-Calculating-MAF-Airflow-From-VE-Table..CALC-VET-In-Reverse
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16280-CALC-VET-Summary-Notes

bikealarmblair
August 9th, 2011, 08:52 AM
Thankyou :cheers:

L31Sleeper
August 14th, 2011, 04:13 PM
So what is the difference between "Auto-Tune" and "AutoVE" ??

-Justin

nevinsb
August 14th, 2011, 06:47 PM
Not really any as far as I could tell, you still use wideband BEN and a filter and copy and paste over the VE table. Now the Calc.VE tuning uses LTFT and also includes corrections for the MAF.

joecar
August 15th, 2011, 12:56 AM
Calc.VET degenerates into AutoMAF (if you eliminate CL/trims).
Calc.MAFT degenerates into AutoVE (if you eliminate CL/trims and fail the MAF).

In both cases, they BEN correct one table and calculate the other table.

L31Sleeper
August 15th, 2011, 07:38 AM
So what is the difference between "Auto-Tune" and "AutoVE" ??

I understand that the "Auto-Tune" was never released ??

-Justin

joecar
August 15th, 2011, 07:48 AM
So what is the difference between "Auto-Tune" and "AutoVE" ??

I understand that the "Auto-Tune" was never released ??

-JustinRead posts #49, #60, #65, #80 to see the answer :gossip:

L31Sleeper
August 15th, 2011, 03:18 PM
Looks Like AutoVE to me, was it just a simple name change ??
Sorry I get hung up on stuff like that.

-Jusitn

Rich Z
December 25th, 2012, 08:51 AM
So release it already! Why have this in a newbie section to get newbies all excited about such a feature only to pull the rug out from under them after reading through the thread and finding out it ain't gonna be so?

Yeah, I don't understand WHY it was not released, but I'm a newbie and can display my ignorance without guilt or shame. :)

joecar
December 25th, 2012, 05:04 PM
Post #1 in that thread is the tutorial...

Rich Z
December 25th, 2012, 07:48 PM
Post #1 in that thread is the tutorial...

I guess I'm just reading this thread wrong then. I got from it the inferrence that there would be an automated function from within EFILive to do these steps. You know, like in AUTOMATICALLY. Hence the term "AutoTune". Something akin to installing the wideband, start logging, then click THIS button and just stand back out of the way.

mr.prick
December 25th, 2012, 09:31 PM
This is a very old thread. :sly:

Paul sets up the AutoVe process in post #80 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?394-Auto-Tune&p=6532&viewfull=1#post6532) and the software version is V7.1 :hihi:

Rich Z
December 26th, 2012, 12:07 PM
This is a very old thread. :sly:

Paul sets up the AutoVe process in post #80 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?394-Auto-Tune&p=6532&viewfull=1#post6532) and the software version is V7.1 :hihi:

Actually there are a LOT of old threads here. :laugh: But to a newbie the info in them is brand new. The problem arises when this old info proves to be outdated, incomplete, or written in such a manner that too much is implied that is completely oblivious to a newcomer. I've actually been reading very old threads that were of interest only to find that they stopped dead with no resolution offered. Rather frustrating, to be honest. I don't know whether the answer was ever figured out, or by that point the answer was just obvious to everyone but me. :nixweiss:

It seemed to me that this "autotune" being discussed was more than just a procedure of steps to follow, but instead a single programmed function within EFILive to do those steps automatically. Maybe that is not possible to do, as this newbie doesn't know enough about the product to know that. But generally speaking, I am all for letting the computer do as much of the grunt work as possible. Sorry, but I just thought this 2005 thread was referring to something that might be lurking in the 2012 version of EFILive that I just haven't found yet, or was decided against being implemented for some reason.

joecar
December 26th, 2012, 05:39 PM
I guess I'm just reading this thread wrong then. I got from it the inferrence that there would be an automated function from within EFILive to do these steps. You know, like in AUTOMATICALLY. Hence the term "AutoTune". Something akin to installing the wideband, start logging, then click THIS button and just stand back out of the way.Ah, sorry, I got my threads crossed, I was referring to the Calc.VET thread, my mistake :doh:

joecar
December 26th, 2012, 05:42 PM
Actually there are a LOT of old threads here. :laugh: But to a newbie the info in them is brand new. The problem arises when this old info proves to be outdated, incomplete, or written in such a manner that too much is implied that is completely oblivious to a newcomer. I've actually been reading very old threads that were of interest only to find that they stopped dead with no resolution offered. Rather frustrating, to be honest. I don't know whether the answer was ever figured out, or by that point the answer was just obvious to everyone but me. :nixweiss:

It seemed to me that this "autotune" being discussed was more than just a procedure of steps to follow, but instead a single programmed function within EFILive to do those steps automatically. Maybe that is not possible to do, as this newbie doesn't know enough about the product to know that. But generally speaking, I am all for letting the computer do as much of the grunt work as possible. Sorry, but I just thought this 2005 thread was referring to something that might be lurking in the 2012 version of EFILive that I just haven't found yet, or was decided against being implemented for some reason.
AutoVE ("Auto Tune") is a sequence of steps, the is a pdf file included with V7.5 installation.

For a summary of AutoVE read thru post #29 here: Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes)

EagleMark
January 7th, 2013, 07:49 AM
Actually there are a LOT of old threads here. :laugh: But to a newbie the info in them is brand new. Actually to a newbie to EFI Live it is horribly confusing information! I have read my butt off as to not be flammed and all I got was more confused. Things have changed so much with newer releases of EFI Live, so many stickys have dead links etc... Like I just read this thread and have no idea how it works or if it works. One sticky for Injectors has a link to an xls file I clicked and my virus protection goes off! Website is gone!

Please take this as constructive POSTIVE criticismsm from a newbie to EFI Live (not new to tuning so it would be worse from them) and the frustration it causes. I have found nothing but great help and support from everyone here to catch up. The more I use EFI Live the more I appreciate the quality, ease and sucess of tuning with it.

joecar
January 7th, 2013, 08:10 AM
Patience... :)

EagleMark
January 7th, 2013, 08:51 AM
All is well. I understand every changing tech. It was really meent to help! :)

Rich Z
January 7th, 2013, 07:02 PM
Yeah man, I do know what you mean. I registered here way back when I bought my copy of EFILive, but never really had much reason (nor time) to delve into it. But things have changed, so I now have a reason to try to work with this stuff.

Seriously, I don't believe the target market for this product is the casual user. Based on pricing alone, I can't see anyone spending the money necessary just to do a tune for bolt ons on their own car. Unless, of course, you just did not have anyone competent nearby to go to for the tuning. Which becomes a dilema for a forum like this when the professional users doing this for a living, or part time income, likely aren't going to easily give up the tricks of their trade to the unwashed masses. So all the support will be coming from those few people who have taken the time to figure this stuff out and are graciously willing to share their knowledge freely. Which puts a huge burden on them trying to keep up with all of the questions us newbies will be tossing around. I imagine burnouts are common from being overwhelmed trying to keep up with the incessant repeated questions.

Seriously, the tutorials need work to take the workload off of the people trying to help out here. Even some sort of FAQ section composed of the most common questions that all us newbies are bound to ask right off the bat. But yeah, that will take up someone's time as well. Maybe this is just as good as it is going to get. Self service with no guarantees expressed nor implied. Could be MUCH worse. Could be NO forum here. :shock:

EagleMark
January 7th, 2013, 07:30 PM
I've never seen any of those issues. Get all sorts of in depth help here from many people! Some are not even listed as EFI Live personel, maybe they are? But in depth help is amazing!

Just the starting from scratch and reading all the stickys and tutorials that are outdated, broken links, dead pictures etc... was a lot of wasted time/learning which confused me even more.

Really I only commented to let EFI Live know as feedback to help. I just read 11 pages in this thread and in the end have no idea if it works or not. It is a really old thread and I have done this before, several times.

These guys know this stuff inside out and I think they forget what it's like to start at the begining, or beginning of which version... plus I started with a not so popular vehicle as far as tuning goes which made it worse.

HTH! :good:

joecar
January 8th, 2013, 06:49 AM
The easiest manner is to start by looking in these threads first:
- A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table)
- CALC-VET-Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16280-CALC-VET-Summary-Notes)
- Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes)

Read and understand those first.

And be aware that IFR slope/shape depends on FPR reference.

Boost
November 6th, 2013, 10:55 PM
Good stuff! Trust me, if I can make it - you can.

Tinbender59
July 16th, 2015, 12:12 PM
The easiest manner is to start by looking in these threads first:
- A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table)
- CALC-VET-Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16280-CALC-VET-Summary-Notes)
- Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes)

Read and understand those first.

And be aware that IFR slope/shape depends on FPR reference.

FINALLY!!!! A starting point, I've been muddling around trying different things, cant find a CALC.SELBEN map by that name anywhere. maybe I'm just not understanding the terminology yet. I am a CNC tech by trade, and we run into this all the time, at times it feals like the guys that write the manuals "assume" that we the techs have at the very least a BA in software design and development. all I have is an associate!! lol

Dirktdolman
July 16th, 2015, 12:24 PM
FINALLY!!!! A starting point, I've been muddling around trying different things, cant find a CALC.SELBEN map by that name anywhere. maybe I'm just not understanding the terminology yet. I am a CNC tech by trade, and we run into this all the time, at times it feals like the guys that write the manuals "assume" that we the techs have at the very least a BA in software design and development. all I have is an associate!! lol

Join the club

Tinbender59
July 16th, 2015, 12:36 PM
Join the club



:funnypost:

joecar
July 17th, 2015, 11:06 PM
Are you not seeing the CALC.SELBEN pid or a map of it...?

The Calc.VET thread (post #1) shows how to create this map... can both of you see it...?

DerekHendrickson26
September 15th, 2019, 09:34 AM
Thanks for the auto tune article. I found a lot of my stranger information from this article. I had a few ideas about this long ago.

GMPX
September 15th, 2019, 10:00 AM
Thanks for the auto tune article. I found a lot of my stranger information from this article. I had a few ideas about this long ago.

Like 14 years ago when this thread was started :hihi:
Time sure flies by fast.

joecar
September 29th, 2019, 10:45 PM
Some people are just getting started on EFILive... :)

In-Tech
October 15th, 2019, 08:01 PM
Yes, it appears I have some reading to do :)