Help with tuning stock truck

[cmitchell17]

Right now ive got a stock 2000extcab 5.3

I dont notice a diffrence in tuning since I had it stock.
The good news is I have barely any KR running 93, besides small spikes that go away like .5 deegrees.
I dont have a wideband but I dont see a real need in it unless or untill I start to mod it heavily. Ill probably just do exhast mabey headers for now.

Do I need to tune my VE tables even if I have a stock truck or is it better to leave them alone?

One thing is is that I can get a good shift at WOT. It is pretty good except it seems to long and not firm and crisp.
I kind of want it to break traction on the 1-2nd.

Anyway im going to put my log up and ill get a scan too.

I might put my stock tune back on to see if I can really tell a diffrence.

[dc_justin]

Welcome to the forum, glad to see you joined from FSC. :cheers:

I think a lot of people will agree that a wideband is one of the greatest tuning peripherals that you can affordably get your hands on.

As for your shifting question, take a look at tables {D0701} and {D1108}.

D0701 defines the base pressures and D1108 defines your desired shift times. As the PCM measures the amount of time it takes to complete a shift at various delivered torque levels, it will adjust the line pressure up or down in order to get as close to your desired shift time as possible.

We have a valuable transmission tuning resource on this forum, going by the name of "joecar". I'm sure once he spots this post he'll jump on and welcome you himself.

[cmitchell17]

I dont want to make my pressures too high becuase I had them at about 23% over stock at the highest level. I saw on the tutorial that you shoulnt go over about 10-25% over stock.

As for mixture and timing, What would someone set the WOT AFR mixture if they where tuning a stock truck running 93? I have left mine a little more lean than stock.

I had the same problem tuning my 4L60e on my 95 truck.
It would not give a good firm shift at WOT too. Over about 70% throttle it would always shift the same.

Does this mean I need a servo or shift kit?
Thanks for the replies

[cmitchell17]

Wait should I put all my shift times around .3 seconds?
The stock graph looks like normal then it gets high as more torque is delievered.
Why would this be like this stock?
Wouldnt this cause a lot of ware and heat making a shift this long, especially at wot?

[joecar]

Hi cmitchell,

Welcome to the forum... :cheers:

LOL... Justin is just overating me, he knows as much as I do and more... :cheers:

As Justin said, look at D0701 and D1108. There are instances where parts of the pressure curves are too low, so it would be ok to increase by more than 25%... e.g. at the low end usually.

I took the liberty of editing your tune file, see attachment...
Open this tune file, and open the original tune file as the alternate, and compare the two (see attached images on how to do this);

Important: test drive those changes and edit to suit.


Also (see further attachment) your WOT upshift speeds are below your WOT downshift speeds... this would prevent any WOT upshifts; I don't know what WOT MPH you want, so I left those parameters alone.

Edit: in your first post you said you're getting WOT upshifts, so maybe just leave these alone (unless you want to figure out "why...?").

WOT upshift: occurs if reached/exceeded both WOT upshift MPH and WOT upshift RPM.
WOT downshift: occurs if below WOT downshift MPH.

Edit: i.e. the WOT downshift MPH being higher would keep you "downshifted" at the MPH specified by the WOT upshift MPH.

So when you set your WOT upshift MPH higher (use the 100% value in D0701-D0703 as a guide), make sure the WOT downshift MPH is about 5-10 MPH below this, and make sure your WOT upshifts are occuring (they should be close to the WOT upshift MPH and WOT upshift RPM specified, but may vary from those values); if they are not occuring, reduce the WOT upshift MPH and/or WOT upshift RPM until they do... but if you reduce the MPH, see the red text.

Cheers
Joe
:cheers:

[joecar]

Cmithchell,

If you find the upshifts are now too firm, then increase the curves in the torque reduction tables D0801-D0803.

Joe

[joecar]

Thinking more about your tune (...after eating lunch... :))... note that if the Throttle Kickdown tables are at anything other than 100% all across, then these will interfere with the Part Throttle Upshift tables and the WOT MPH parameters (... it might explain why you're seeing WOT upshifts in spite of the WOT upshift/downshift parameters conflicting).

[cmitchell17]

Wow thanks so much,
Im reading this from another computer but im about to go get to work changing it on my labtop.

One question though, what is the diffrence between an upshift at WOT and a throttle kickdown?

And how do you guys read your saved data on efi live?
There is the stock setup that is good and I use the B dashpage, but there is only so much on there. And it seems like you can't change what shows on the B chart page, you can only put new gauges in?

Anyway I would have never even remotely known what was going on without yall helping me. Thanks again:cheers:

[cmitchell17]

I am getting upshifts if that is what you mean by your question. It will downshift all the way untill it gets about 36 37mph or something. But it always will shift into 2nd at about 5800rpm. Although the downshifts seem kind of weak.

Thanks again for helping me

[cmitchell17]

Alright I adjusted everthing and im ready to go log and test it out. I will post up the results once im done.

Thanks again:master:

[joecar]

Wow thanks so much,
Im reading this from another computer but im about to go get to work changing it on my labtop.

One question though, what is the diffrence between an upshift at WOT and a throttle kickdown?

And how do you guys read your saved data on efi live?
There is the stock setup that is good and I use the B dashpage, but there is only so much on there. And it seems like you can't change what shows on the B chart page, you can only put new gauges in?

Anyway I would have never even remotely known what was going on without yall helping me. Thanks again:cheers:
You're welcome. :cheers:

Throttle Kickdown: if the throttle hits/exceeds this, then the PCM commands a WOT downshift (see next sentence).

WOT downshift: when the throttle hits/exceeds Throttle Kickdown value, and VSS is below the WOT downshift MPH, a downshift is commanded regardless of the PT downshift table (PT = part throtle);

WOT upshift: when VSS hits the WOT upshift MPH, an upshift is commanded regardless of the PT upshift table;

If the WOT downshift MPH is above the WOT upshift MPH, and you bring the throttle to WOT, the tendancy is to not upshift.

If the Throttle Kickdown value is less than 100%, the tendancy is that this may override the PT upshift table (prevents upshift) and the PT downshift table (downshift doesn't match table)... i.e. the shift pattern will be "strange".

To change a gauge: you can right click on a dash gauge to change its properties (including the PID), and "Save As" using a new filename.

[joecar]

Alright I adjusted everthing and im ready to go log and test it out. I will post up the results once im done.

Thanks again:master:Post your updated tune so we can sanity check it. :cheers:

[cmitchell17]

Ok ive taken my data.

The part throttle shifts feel really good.(they are not annoying and they feel solid and you know they are better for the life of the trans.)

First I notice in the log right before the 1-2nd shift pressure goes from 90psi to 45psi then back up to 85psi right before it shifts. What would command it to do this?

The WOT shifts feel the same, it feels like at high rpm it stops pulling hard then right when it shifts it like grabs and slowly pushes you foward then goes back down to around 3000 and bogs down in the high 2nd gear.
They just arnt quick.
So how can I fix this?

[cmitchell17]

What do you think about abuse mode and TM and things like that. Should I leave them a little decreased from stock especially since I have a stock trans?

I always here that the stock trans suposedly only last about 130K, I have 120K on my truck.

I dont believe that they could only last that long, especially with all the resrictive stock tuning. What do you think?

[joecar]

Ok ive taken my data.

The part throttle shifts feel really good.(they are not annoying and they feel solid and you know they are better for the life of the trans.)

First I notice in the log right before the 1-2nd shift pressure goes from 90psi to 45psi then back up to 85psi right before it shifts. What would command it to do this?

The WOT shifts feel the same, it feels like at high rpm it stops pulling hard then right when it shifts it like grabs and slowly pushes you foward then goes back down to around 3000 and bogs down in the high 2nd gear.
They just arnt quick.
So how can I fix this?
The PCM uses the shift pressure tables during a shift; but when not shifting the PCM uses some other [yet-undiscovered] running-in-gear pressure tables/calculation; why would these tables/calculations cause a pressure dip right before shifting is a good question... :nixweiss:

I don't know, would the dip to 45 psi be related...?
I noticed in the log that the lastshift time seemed higher than expected.
I'll take another look later today.

Take more logs (include these pids: GEAR, TRQENG, TCCMODE... and remove some of the other pids to keep the channel count no greater than 24)...

[joecar]

What do you think about abuse mode and TM and things like that. Should I leave them a little decreased from stock especially since I have a stock trans?

I always here that the stock trans suposedly only last about 130K, I have 120K on my truck.

I dont believe that they could only last that long, especially with all the resrictive stock tuning. What do you think?Torque Reduction helps in avoiding breakage of hard parts in the drivetrain; it (along with shift pressures and shift times) can be used to fine tune the shift feel, and still be within the "safe" envelope; a little decreased from stock is good since stock is very conservative... You can see when it kicks in by the momentary reduction in spark timing.

Abuse mode is used to prevent/reduce damage say when shifting from Park to in gear while throttle is being applied... I don't know if it kicks in at any other time/condition; it's like "idiot-proof" mode.

Some transmissions go longer than 130K, it all depends on several things:
- regular fluid/filter changes prolong life;
- driving habit (WOT ocassionally is ok; WOT all the time reduces life);
- fluid temperature (too high degrades the fluid properties, too low reduces lubing ability);
- how your trans. was put together (tolerances, part quality), some people get lucky, some get unlucky;
- maintaining the fluid level on the mark (or slightly above it).

[cmitchell17]

Ok I think I figured it out.
I took some more data and found that at WOT before it shifts the torque drops off to about 230ft.lbs. at about 5800rpms when it shifts.
So I guess the solution is to ramp up the pressure cruve right before 230ft.lbs. hoping that the pressure will increase during the shifts.

Is this supposed to happen? Stock at 230ft.lbs. psi is only at 50psi?
Sorry if you use metric.

So is this causing my sloppy shifts.

And I dont see why with my timing at around 26-28degrees from the stock of 16 why I havent seen in increase is performance? I also leaned out the WOT AFR too. I havent noticed a diffrence. Mabey it is just me and I dont notice it, but other people who have gotten custom tunes are all amazed at the diffrence in performance from the stock tuning.

Another thing am I mabey shifting at too high and rpm for the pressures? Like it is going to high an rpm and torque is dropping off so much it dosent think there is much power about to go through the trans on the shift?


I hope I can get it fixed and get it shifting good:cheers:
here is some data that I hope will help.

[joecar]

Yes, if TRQENG drops off, you will move further left on the shift pressure tables... good deduction... :cheers:

I'll look at your new files later tonite...

Are you running SD...?
Is your VE dialed in (BENs == 1.00)...?
Check your AFR.
Check your spark advance.

[joecar]

Ok... I see the drop in TRQENG from 324 ftlb to 216 ftlb... and I'm wondering why...?

[cmitchell17]

Ok I havent even touched my VE tabels, but why should I if I have a completely stock motor?
I would think it would be better to just leave them alone.

I have no wideband to verify my AFR, but im commanding about 12.4-12.6 at WOT. My timing stays 25-28 degrees at WOT with no KR.

And I dont think im running SD I havent changed any of that.
Is it better to run SD? What is better about it?
Im guessing the MAP sensor is more accurate under AE becuase ive heard that MAF sensors give and inaccurate reading with rapid changes in ariflow.
I also used to tune my 95 truck with tbi on it, and I have not yet figured MAP out not less MAF out.

[cmitchell17]

I can work on this after school and ill take some more logs.

Why is there no tables dealing with acceleration enrichment? Or pump shot?

[joecar]

If you don't "notice" your engine dropping 100+ ftlb, then it may well be that the PCM may be miscalculating the value for TRQENG... (I said may a few times...).

For an experiment, try bumping up the shift pressure curve at around 200+ ftlb and do a test drive.

[joecar]

...Why is there no tables dealing with acceleration enrichment? Or pump shot?There is PE vs RPM B3618 which is enabled by Throttle vs RPM PE enable B3616.

[dc_justin]

Why is there no tables dealing with acceleration enrichment? Or pump shot?

I asked Jesse (Wait4me) to look into that a couple of days ago. He told me he'd ask Ross to put it into the calibrations once they have some free time.

[cmitchell17]

Is the torque curve supposed to drop 100ftlbs stock?

It does really feel like it looses a lot of power especially on a downshift at like around 35mph it will rev up to about 5800rpm and it sure does not feel like it pulls like other stock 5.3 I have rode in.

Im going to mess with the pressure some.

The truck seems like it runs good, but I still havent checked the plugs since I have gotten it. But one problem I can't even get the plug wires off. Is there a trick to it or do they just get stuck on? I tried to twist them but cant get them to come off and I dont want to pull to hard on them.

[joecar]

If you feel it losing power, then the PCM is calculating the torque properly.

Are you getting misfires (log these, and listen/feel also)...?

Engine can run good at light load with bad plugs/wires, but will misfire under high load.

How many miles on the plugs/wires...?

Twist them using a pair of pliers...
if they are very stuck, you need new ones anyway, so slice them (longwise) with a razor knife (careful).

Also, understand that the experimenting with the pressure at 200ftlb is for the purpose to eliminate the trans. cal. settings (torque reduction and abuse management) as the cause, and is not to be seen as the "fix", so don't forget to undo this when done experimenting.

[cmitchell17]

I just bought the truck about 2 weeks ago.
I just cant get the wires off to check the plugs. Can i spray like penetrating lube on it or is that bad?

And I dont think im getting missfires I will log them though, at idel I might be able to feel a small shake but not much.

[dc_justin]

I just bought the truck about 2 weeks ago.
I just cant get the wires off to check the plugs. Can i spray like penetrating lube on it or is that bad?

And I dont think im getting missfires I will log them though, at idel I might be able to feel a small shake but not much.

Try twisting and turning while pulling on them... They can be a pain sometimes.

The shake at idle isn't something to worry about unless it's real bad. You can get rid of most of it by raising the idle timing 3-4* and/or bumping idle speed up 25rpms or so.

[cmitchell17]

Ok I bumped up the pressure and took a run.
The WOT shifts feel a little faster and stronger.

Does it need more pressure and is it safe to put more pressure in it?
And will a stock transmission even be able to give a good frim shift at WOT?

[joecar]

It ok to have more pressure;

But do diagnose the torque drop (hmmm... is air cleaner ok);

I'll look at these files when I get on my other PC.

[cmitchell17]

Ok the airfilter looks good. One thing though is rats had chewed through the aircleaner in parts of it inbetween the MAF and the slinecer box thing.
The guy had is sealed and taped up pretty good so I dint worry about it and taped it up with new tape. I have cleaned the MAF also.

I used pliers to twist the boot off and it worked. The wires look good and new and there was also dielectric grease in them too.
The plugs also looked normal but on the very ends of each gap there was a shiny piece, but nowhere else on the plug so it dint look like detonation. On the top gap piece right where the spark jumps too or jumps from there was like buildup of something. So is it time for some new ones? I will relace them anyway just to make sure.

[joecar]

Pics...?

[cmitchell17]

Alright ill get some tommarow and post them up. There is not specs all over the plug just a little one on the tip. The plug itself looks find the gap still looks to be at 60. Im probably going to get new ones tommarow anyway.

[dc_justin]

I am looking at another 5.3L truck log and the TRQENG is falling off as well... and it makes sense. ;)
Peaks out at 4000rpms... right where the engine's peak torque occurs.

[cmitchell17]

Yeah my log looks about like that too. What does the transmission Pressure do in the log your looking at?

[joecar]

I am looking at another 5.3L truck log and the TRQENG is falling off as well... and it makes sense. ;)
Peaks out at 4000rpms... right where the engine's peak torque occurs.Does it drop 100+ ftlbs...? Seems like a big drop...?

[dc_justin]

Does it drop 100+ ftlbs...? Seems like a big drop...?

Yep. Completely stock 5.3L avalanche.

[joecar]

That's sad...:bawl::bawl: ...Where does peak power occur...?

[dc_justin]

That's sad...:bawl::bawl: ...Where does peak power occur...?

Peak power on the stock 5.3L is at 5200rpms... peak power within this log occurs right at 5200rpms. Sounds about right.

One thing to note, this individual's truck shifts at 5400, so it doesn't have a chance to drop the full 100ft-lbs, but it does drop off 60 or so.

[cmitchell17]

So do I need to be shifting a little earileir since the power is droping off so much. But its just that the second gear is so low rpms drop to like 3k and it dosent even seem like your accelerating.

Im going to get new plugs when I take them out ill take some pictures.

[cmitchell17]

I lost my cable that connects my camera to my computer. But my plugs look fine to me the plugs and wires are both AC delco, I dont know if the guy before me put new ones on or not. The air fiter gauge is all the way up too.

I lowered my shift points about 100rpm to 5550rpm is this good?
It still seemed like it shifted the same

And when you said it is ok to have more pressure.
Do you mean that the maximum pressure at high torque (200ftlbs+) I can raise it like 5 10 psi? This wont hurt the trans?

[dc_justin]

Don't forget your desired shift times tables. If you make any changes you make to the base pressure table, you should also make a change to the similar torque levels in the desired shift times tables, as they will affect they line pressure as your shifts are learned.

[cmitchell17]

Hey Justin,

On the stock avalanche does the trans pressure drop off right before the shift and then come back all the way except for about 5psi lower when it is shifting?

[cmitchell17]

That was wierd we just posted at the same time.

I have my shift time start at .3 then slowly go down to .26 at about 230ftlbs. then down to almost .2s.

Could I just keep lowering my shift times?

[joecar]

Shift times: goto 0.2s all across on all shifts.
Shift pressures: increase from around 200 ftlb and up.
Torque reduction: reduce from around 200 ftlb and up.

[dc_justin]

That was wierd we just posted at the same time.

I have my shift time start at .3 then slowly go down to .26 at about 230ftlbs. then down to almost .2s.

Could I just keep lowering my shift times?

Desired shift times will only adapt the final pressure to a certain extent. The two should be close.

What you could do would be to log the shift times PIDs, set all of your desired shift times to 0, then once you get the pressures where you want, create the desired shift times table values based on the actual times it takes to shift at the various torque points.


Shift times: goto 0.2s all across on all shifts.
Shift pressures: increase from around 200 ftlb and up.
Torque reduction: reduce from around 200 ftlb and up.

I've observed that .2s on the 2-3 shift on a truck will result in it banging into gear at low torque levels.

[cmitchell17]

Ok here is the lastes log I did what you said and shift times to .2s and decrease torque reduction about 10% and bump up pressures at around 210ftlbs.

It is still dropping from 90psi to like 57psi right before the shift.
In around the 2100frame I shifited manuealy so it might look wierd I guess.

I only ramped up the pressure more I dint increase the max pressure. Should I go more like 10-20psi over 200ftlbs?

I bet you guys are getting tired of me by now.:D

[joecar]

Ok here is the lastes log I did what you said and shift times to .2s and decrease torque reduction about 10% and bump up pressures at around 210ftlbs.

It is still dropping from 90psi to like 57psi right before the shift.
In around the 2100frame I shifited manuealy so it might look wierd I guess.

I only ramped up the pressure more I dint increase the max pressure. Should I go more like 10-20psi over 200ftlbs?

I bet you guys are getting tired of me by now.:D I don't have the software on this PC... but ramp up the pressure curves sooner sooner so that you get say 75-80 psi at 210 ftlbs... You could make it go to max pressure (96 psi) at the high torque end so that your curve won't look strange.

We're not getting tired, this thread is interesting... :D


I've observed that .2s on the 2-3 shift on a truck will result in it banging into gear at low torque levels. And to avoid this, raise the 2-3 shift time to say 0.3-0.4s for the low torque end (Justin, what value do you think is good here...?).

Joe

[dc_justin]

I don't have the software on this PC... but ramp up the pressure curves sooner sooner so that you get say 75-80 psi at 210 ftlbs... You could make it go to max pressure (96 psi) at the high torque end so that your curve won't look strange.

We're not getting tired, this thread is interesting... :D

And to avoid this, raise the 2-3 shift time to say 0.3-0.4s for the low torque end (Justin, what value do you think is good here...?).

Joe

I start with .3 at 0ft-lbs and almost linearly hit .2 at the 207ft-lbs mark. Seems to work out well. :)

Edit: Apologies for not stating that in the original post. I try to keep my time on here limited while in the office to keep the boss from asking questions. ;)

[joecar]

I start with .3 at 0ft-lbs and almost linearly hit .2 at the 207ft-lbs mark. Seems to work out well. :)

Edit: Apologies for not stating that in the original post. I try to keep my time on here limited while in the office to keep the boss from asking questions. ;)That's fine, we understand... ;)

[cmitchell17]

Ok im going to go try it im updating the ipod right now.

[cmitchell17]

Still same old shift.
When you told me to bump up the pressure sooner last post it was already bumped up to about where you said so I bumped it up even sooner.

One thing I noticed in the log is that on one shift it did not drop pressure before the shift stayed at 90psi. I think it was the shift where I manually put it in first and then shifted to second and I think if im at WOT and shift to second it will not shift untill it hits the WOT Shift rpm and mph.

Its around frame 360.

So what are my options?
Im going to try some more stuff on my on and ill post the logs and tune, but here is the one now.

[cmitchell17]

Ive got my part thorttle shift almost perfect. I think they just need to be sofened up just a little. Especially thoes low load 1-2nd shifts that seem too hold first too long and shift hard.

So can I just try 0 or like 5% torque reduction at WOT or will that just be asking for my trans to slip?

My 95 with a 4L60e did the same thing, do I just need a shift kit or a servo?

[joecar]

Ive got my part thorttle shift almost perfect. I think they just need to be sofened up just a little. Especially thoes low load 1-2nd shifts that seem too hold first too long and shift hard.

So can I just try 0 or like 5% torque reduction at WOT or will that just be asking for my trans to slip?

My 95 with a 4L60e did the same thing, do I just need a shift kit or a servo?Are you saying you want to increase firmness at WOT...?
Yes, then decrease TR around the WOT torque range, but take note of the following:

Torque reduction causes the PCM to reduce engine torque (by reducing spark timing), so increasing TR will not cause slip;

Decreasing TR may cause slip (clutch/band wear/burn) if the shift pressure tables are too low, or it will cause harsh shifting (drivetrain stress/breakage) if the pressure tables are too high; so try it and see... take note of how the shift feels, and analyze your log (what is GM.LASTSHIFT time, how long does RPM take to drop, ...).

A shift kit and/or servo may/maynot firm up the shift, it depends on a number of variables including age/condition of trans., but generally would be an improvement over stock.

[joecar]

My point was (too much verbage... :bash:):

shift pressure tables, shift time tables, shift TR tables all work together to give shift feel.

[cmitchell17]

Yeah I have been looking for a firm shift at WOT something my other stock 4L60e would not do either.

I reduced torque reduction in tow haul mode to about 5%> at around 200ftlbs+. The shift is not as quick and you can tell it is harder for it to shift.
So would this mean that it is just worn out? This trans has 120K on it and my other one had about 130K.

Is this normal? It seems like the clutch or band would just not work anymore instead of just weak shifting.

With TR the shift acutally dosent feel that bad just not as frim as like a shift at 50-75%tps. It seems like the SA is reduced a little late in my logs.

I guess I will have to live with it becuase I dont have near enough money to get my trans built or get another one.
I guess its time to get my exhast and try to tune my AFR better.

I know this is off topic but has anyone ever replaced the stock air silencer with a tube or something on a 5.3. Rats chewed through mine and im looking for some better sound.

[joecar]

Still same old shift.
When you told me to bump up the pressure sooner last post it was already bumped up to about where you said so I bumped it up even sooner.

One thing I noticed in the log is that on one shift it did not drop pressure before the shift stayed at 90psi. I think it was the shift where I manually put it in first and then shifted to second and I think if im at WOT and shift to second it will not shift untill it hits the WOT Shift rpm and mph.

Its around frame 360.

So what are my options?
Im going to try some more stuff on my on and ill post the logs and tune, but here is the one now.Further comment after looking at the log file again...

The drops in TFMPRS are well before any shift... this area is controlled by "in gear" table(s) which are undefined in the calibration... TFMPRS is following the drop in TRQENG, and there's not much that can be done;

As for that one shift where the TRQENG starts dropping but TFMPRS stays up... it seems the throttle was released while the rpm was lower, this may have something to do with it... but I don't know.

[joecar]

130K miles in a truck... the life of the trans depends on stress from the weight of the truck, regular maintenance, lack of abuse... and luck... ;)

some people get the ones assembled by a geezer who had a good night's sleep...:cheers:
while others get the one's that were mid-assembly when the lunch bell rang... :bash:

When my I changed the filter on my F-body at 15K (I am the first owner), I was shocked to find a chewed up thrust washer in the filter when I cut it open... how'd that get in there... :bash: ... but my trans is still going strong at 75K...:cheers:

Some things to note:
- has the shift pattern always been like that, or has it started to appear recently...?
- check your ATF level regularly (every few days)... and note any irrugularities in level and/or colour/smell.

[cmitchell17]

I have only had this truck for almost 1500 miles and the WOT shifts have been modified for about 1000 and it has never shifted fast at WOT. I am trying to remmber how it shifted stock.

Im going to go check my ATF right now.

All these mystery tables,(like the running in gear pressure) does each version of EFI Live keep upgrading and adding more of these tables, or is there just so many we will never know about?

[cmitchell17]

About when I released the throttle, does the pressure stay up for just a little while after full throttle just to make sure you dont go full thorttle again?

It is amazing how these transmissions pressures go up and down so fast.

[cmitchell17]

Ok ive been working on it more and Im almost at about the stock level of torque reduction.

It seems like the torque reduction comes in almost too late?

Anyway so I guess my transmission is just worn, like the 1-2clutches are just too worn out to shift hard? I guess im at max pressure too.

I put one of thoes airraid jr kits on and I think it made the GMENGTQ go up to about 340 345 instead of 330 or whereever it is.

Thanks for helping me out.:cheers:

Next is to put on my exhast and mabey headers.
And that is about as much money as I have to spend:mad:

[joecar]

When you check the ATF level, take note of it's colour/smell and how much sludge is on the dipstick...

Let us know how you go...

Yeah, we're all on budgets :bash: (...aren't we...) that we wish were much bigger... :cheers:

[cmitchell17]

To me the color looks fine good and red. I added some when I first got the truck becuase it seemed a little low so I added some. I added some more so ive added about a quart since I got it. The level is now at the top of the HOT level. It smells like regular trans fluid like that would come out of the bottle.

It smells the same as the fluid in the powersteering and I guess they put dextron in for the ps fluid.

When I first checked it when I got the truck it looked a little low and a little dark so after I added some the color looks normal and red now.

Is there any other 4L60e's that you know of that this happens.

I have a friend with a single cab 4.8 but his has about 50K, ill go see how I can make his shift.

I just dont see how if it shifts so slow at WOT how it just dosent give out.
And I know this truck hasnt towed hard or been drivin hard.

[joecar]

To me the color looks fine good and red. I added some when I first got the truck becuase it seemed a little low so I added some. I added some more so ive added about a quart since I got it. The level is now at the top of the HOT level. It smells like regular trans fluid like that would come out of the bottle.

It smells the same as the fluid in the powersteering and I guess they put dextron in for the ps fluid.

When I first checked it when I got the truck it looked a little low and a little dark so after I added some the color looks normal and red now.

Is there any other 4L60e's that you know of that this happens.

I have a friend with a single cab 4.8 but his has about 50K, ill go see how I can make his shift.

I just dont see how if it shifts so slow at WOT how it just dosent give out.
And I know this truck hasnt towed hard or been drivin hard.I heard some other people have similar thing with their truck.

Has something partly to do with torque, but I think there may be other parameters or tables involved.

Try lowering B1901 to say 325 and see if that makes any difference.

Take note if any DTC's are being thrown.

Hmmm... something about the truck cal is different...

Did you do an AutoVE tune...? If you did, try going back to orignal VE with MAF/CL enabled and see if there's any difference.

Post your most current tune again.

ATF in PS is perfectly good... :cheers:... except when you see a leak you have to diagnose "where from".

[cmitchell17]

Ok I lowered the maximum allowed engine torque to 325.
Im going to go try it out.

And no I havent done auto ve or even changed my ve tables, I dont have a wideband.:mad:


So I guess I know its got enough good old dextron in it and its up almost past the hot level.

I dont see how mimiting the maximum engine torque would do anything?

[cmitchell17]

No codes besides a fuel level sensor circuit voltage high. I guess my fuel sender is gone.
Im trying to remmber if I edited anything to do with ve tables or anyting?


Wait, I think I edited optimal timing,let me check it make sure its stock!

Ok its stock, but im fixing to try it with the max torque lowered to 325.
I posted the stock tune to help you.

[cmitchell17]

Ok I went and tried it and it seems like the shifts are a little faster.

My torque reduction is almost at stock. So I stuck it in tow/haul and tried it where my tourque reduction is about 6% less and it seemed it was a little quicker and sounded better like better sound from the engine. Like on the stock exhast when it shifts the engine sound changes really fast.

Anyway I took a log and im about to look at it.

I think I already told you this but my 95 4l60e did this too.
I dont no if you know about ODBI tuning but I think someone told me there was some tables missing from my defintion. I could never get it to shift hard at WOT either.

I had my max torque at 625 before I changed it also, becuase I though it would limit power or something.

[cmitchell17]

After looking at it it seems like my pressure is messing around more before the shift.

But right when it shifts it always goes to like 89 90psi.

Im going to lower my torque reduction in tow/haul to see if it shifts hard, but if it slips it will be ok becuase I can take it out of tow/haul.

[joecar]

To me B1901 is not as well understood.

I'm on the wrong PC to view your logs/tune right now, si I'll view them later today.

[cmitchell17]

What would be the normal quckest WOT 1-2 shift time a stock 4l60e could deliver.

I think in the log mine where about .7.

I just tuned a 2500HD with a 6.0 and I took out all torque reduction in tow/haul and bumped up the pressure about 5-10%. It shifted a lot faster than mine it was a quick good shift but no chirp the tires intense shift.


Anyway if the line pressure is at 90 when it shifts what would cause it to shift slow (if .7 seconds is slow), are you thinking is it somekind of unknow TR table or something?

[joecar]

What would be the normal quckest WOT 1-2 shift time a stock 4l60e could deliver.

I think in the log mine where about .7.

I just tuned a 2500HD with a 6.0 and I took out all torque reduction in tow/haul and bumped up the pressure about 5-10%. It shifted a lot faster than mine it was a quick good shift but no chirp the tires intense shift.


Anyway if the line pressure is at 90 when it shifts what would cause it to shift slow (if .7 seconds is slow), are you thinking is it somekind of unknow TR table or something?I think the 4L60E can physically perform a shift in 0.1s or better.

To chrip tires, try 0% TR, 0.2s shift time, lots of pressure... on my F-body it wildly breaks traction... :D ... on a truck there's more weight... BUT be careful, driveline parts WILL break when doing this; also note that sticky tires make it hard to chirp tires (e.g. treadwear index 220... tires with this are quite sticky).

I'm self-convinced (and other people are too) that there are other TR/TM tables.

[cmitchell17]

Treadwear on my tires are 400 so I get no traction.

Im going to mess with that max torque table.
Is there anything left for me to try or mess with?

Why would EFI live leave some tables out?
So nothing gets screwed up?

[cmitchell17]

What about TCS duty cycle and things like that.

I know my truck dosent have TC, like buttons or anything, but could these things be affecting my shifting.

[cmitchell17]

I changed the TCS Deleivered Troque Duty Cycle to 100% it said on VU Utes applications change this to 100% to make the pump 100% at WOT.

Is this safe?

[dc_justin]

I think the 4L60E can physically perform a shift in 0.1s or better.

To chrip tires, try 0% TR, 0.2s shift time, lots of pressure... on my F-body it wildly breaks traction... :D ... on a truck there's more weight... BUT be careful, driveline parts WILL break when doing this; also note that sticky tires make it hard to chirp tires (e.g. treadwear index 220... tires with this are quite sticky).

I'm self-convinced (and other people are too) that there are other TR/TM tables.

Another thing I'm wondering... Perhaps the PCM may be requesting 96psi of pressure, but in actuality, only 85psi is being delivered? Worn parts might be the culprit here causing lower than wanted pressure.

:nixweiss:

[cmitchell17]

Im going to try this, but what is VU Utes mean? Table B1904

[joecar]

Im going to try this, but what is VU Utes mean? Table B1904In Aust, they use that to control the speed of the fuel pump on the VU model ute
(utility = car style pickup truck (similar to "El Camino")).

[joecar]

Another thing I'm wondering... Perhaps the PCM may be requesting 96psi of pressure, but in actuality, only 85psi is being delivered? Worn parts might be the culprit here causing lower than wanted pressure.

:nixweiss:Could be... if that's it, it can be temporarily "fixed" by turning in the screw on the PCS solenoid or installing a stiffer spring in the pressure regulator (as comes with shift kit).

Could also be general wear... clutch packs now have bigger tolerance due to wear, they may be able to hold 200 ftlb, but may slip some at 300 ftlb...

PCS solenoid meters Torque Signal pressure which "assists" pressure regulator to meter Line Pressure... if there's any internal leaks, line pressure may not go as high as expected (~230 psi max); worn o-rings may hold say 150 psi, and "blow by" any pressure above this (so clutch pack won't hold as tight).

If there's a leak where the filter seals to the pump/case, then air could be sucked in which causes reduced pressure and frothing...

Can be several things all working together...

Could also be something in the tune...

[joecar]

...
Why would EFI live leave some tables out?
So nothing gets screwed up?It's not a matter of leaving out the table...

This stuff is all reverse engineered... cpu emulator shows which memory locations are being accessed and how the data there is manipulated by the code... do this while engine is running/exercising and you can get an idea of what the data is (e.g. MAF table or Spark table)...

some tables don't show up as easy as that, so they are "lost" or "unknown".

And no-one else seems to have this table... either.

There are plenty of other tables that can screw everything up big time... so I don't think they left it out for that reason.

[cmitchell17]

Im probably going to take it to a trans guy I know in town.

Is the PCS soleniod something I can adjust or is it a bad idea for me to mess with?

[cmitchell17]

Wait but if the clutch packs could hold 200fllbs but slip at 300ftlbs.

So at part thorttle/early shifts.....

Like 4500rpm delevering 206ftlbs it gives a hard good shift, although the 1-2 shift time stays at .6 seconds(for some reason on my last log it seems the shift times stayed at .6 seconds)

I guess the delievered torque isnt that accurate but when its shifting at part thorttle not WOT shifts it is shifting at around 4000 with more torque to the trans than it would be at WOT.

But I guess as it shifts the rpms drop and it moves back into the torque range, but there is TR with is only taking about 40-45ftlbs out of the engine by taking the timing to zero for one frame of the log.

[cmitchell17]

According to my log TR would not be really doing anthing as it shifts it deleivers about 230-ftlbs as the rpms drop the TR kicks in reducing torque...... although the rpms have dropped... so the TR has not reduced engine toruqe that much (unless this is completely inaccurate and updates slowly)


So that would mean I need more TR past about 230ftlbs.
Im going to go try it now, thanks

[joecar]

Im probably going to take it to a trans guy I know in town.

Is the PCS soleniod something I can adjust or is it a bad idea for me to mess with?Adjust it only if you are familiar with where it is and what you have to remove to get at the hex screw. ;)

Otherwise you may get into trouble.

[joecar]

According to my log TR would not be really doing anthing as it shifts it deleivers about 230-ftlbs as the rpms drop the TR kicks in reducing torque...... although the rpms have dropped... so the TR has not reduced engine toruqe that much (unless this is completely inaccurate and updates slowly)


So that would mean I need more TR past about 230ftlbs.
Im going to go try it now, thanksTR shows up as a momentary down-spike in spark advance when the PCM commands the shift.

[joecar]

Im probably going to take it to a trans guy I know in town.

Is the PCS soleniod something I can adjust or is it a bad idea for me to mess with?
Adjust it only if you are familiar with where it is and what you have to remove to get at the hex screw. ;)

Otherwise you may get into trouble.
You would have to be prepared to remove the fluid, pan, filter, and accumulator cover several times;
1/8 th of a turn CW may make a large difference, it may be too much... this is where trouble happens;
and after you do that, the TFM pressure table will not correlate (or maybe it doesn't right now...?).

Joe

[cmitchell17]

Im pretty sure I left all that stuff stock.

Can you not adjust any of this stuff through the PCM?

One thing I have noticed that I never really had before is that
my 2-3 shift feels good. I dont no if I have a good 2-3 shift logged to see the shift time but it feels pretty good.

Is it safe to modifiy the 2-1 and 3-2 tempeture adjustment tables to give me more pressure and stronger downshift. I dont see a 2-1 or a 3-2 downshift base pressure table so I figure I can adjust these tables when the trans is in opertating temp by about 5psi per second?

Anyway would the 2-3 shift being stronger than the 1-2 shift have anything to do with anything?

[joecar]

The Pressure Control Solenoid (a.k.a. Torque Force Motor) is calibrated at the factory via the hex screw in the back of it...

Table D3801 ("Force Motor Current") reflects this calibration;

In this table, PCS current ranges from 0A to 1.1A, where 0A means maximum Torque Signal pressure (96 psi), and 1.1A means minimum Torque Signal pressure (0 psi)...

(Torque Signal pressure assists the Pressure Regulator in increasing Line Pressure).

So if you reduced the values in this table:
to command a specific pressure at a specific temperature,
the PCM would be commanding a lower current, resulting in a higher pressure...

But you would have to be careful doing this: the table would now not reflect the PCS's calibration
(same situation as the hex screw, but the hex screw can give higher max pressures);

Repeating: you would have to be careful when doing this.

[joecar]

It should be safe to adjust the temp. tables, the range on them is not very much, but may be worth experimenting in.

If your 2-3 shift is good, the 3/4 clutch (used in 3 and 4) is good;
If your 1-2 shift is weak, the 2/4 band (used in 2 and 4) may be worn;

How does your 3-4 shift feel...?

[cmitchell17]

Im still in the stock 3-4 shift point so it will never shift at WOT.

But part thottle feels fine I dont feel any slipping like drving on the highway or anything.


I might have just found something big. (I hope)

I have a tune from a 2003 4.8 4L60e stock, the force motor current is the same for torque signal pressures 621kpa+(.098) for all trans temps.

On my 2000 it is .216 at 90+psi for low trans temps and .157 for normal temps.

Now does this mean mine is low so I am commanding more pressure but mechanically the trans is not pushing more pressure.

Did GM think that the 1-2nd was sloppy so they adjusted the tables and adjusted the PCS along with it?

There seems like a big diffrence in amps when it is commanding high pressure 90+psi 621+kpa(I guess that is the same) between my 2000 and his 2003.
Unless the trans was changed through the years.

The way I understand it is that the force motor amps are calibrated specifically to the PCS adjusting screw.

I put my tune and the tune from the 2004 truck so you can look at the diffrence in the tables.

[cmitchell17]

I dont no where that smily came from on my last post. +:)

[joecar]

I dont no where that smily came from on my last post. +:)Characters immediatly to the left of a ")" cause the 2 letter combo to be interpreted as a smiley...

e.g. the combo 8) becomes 8) ...

To prevent this, enclose that portion (or a larger portion) of the text inside pairs.

[joecar]

I'll view those .tun files on my other PC when I get home tonite.

[joecar]

Im still in the stock 3-4 shift point so it will never shift at WOT.

But part thottle feels fine I dont feel any slipping like drving on the highway or anything.


I might have just found something big. (I hope)

I have a tune from a 2003 4.8 4L60e stock, the force motor current is the same for torque signal pressures 621kpa+(.098) for all trans temps.

On my 2000 it is .216 at 90+psi for low trans temps and .157 for normal temps.

Now does this mean mine is low so I am commanding more pressure but mechanically the trans is not pushing more pressure.

Did GM think that the 1-2nd was sloppy so they adjusted the tables and adjusted the PCS along with it?

There seems like a big diffrence in amps when it is commanding high pressure 90+psi 621+kpa(I guess that is the same) between my 2000 and his 2003.
Unless the trans was changed through the years.

The way I understand it is that the force motor amps are calibrated specifically to the PCS adjusting screw.

I put my tune and the tune from the 2004 truck so you can look at the diffrence in the tables.

I don't know; your PT shifts seem good, so it's puzzling;
I'm thinking there are "other/unknown" tables that could help.

I don't know... but all factory shifts seem very mild.

Yes, thats correct.

[cmitchell17]

So would I be safe lowering the force motor amps just a little.

Like instead of .157, put it at like .135 or .13 just at 90+ psi range.

If the 2003 truck is at like .9 something I think mine should be around there unless the trans was changed through the years.

[joecar]

With small changes like that, I think you'll be safe...

Edit, flash, test drive, note feel, repeat...

This is analogous to tuning the AFR by tweaking the IFR table... sometimes you just gotto do what you gotto.

[cmitchell17]

I reduced both the positive and negative tables.

Im about to go test it out.

One thing is that on the logs, on the WOT shifts it commands about 90 psi I think but if it goes lower like 88psi I changed the 86, 90, 96psi ranges in the table lowered by .025amps.

[joecar]

C,

You said that the PT shifts are firm and the WOT shifts are weak...

:idea: I have an idea: set D1207 to 100% and D1206 to 99%.

The idea is to have the WOT mode disable be higher than the WOT mode enable to prevent from entering WOT mode... (I'm hoping... :cheers:)
(WOT mode is entered if TPS >= D1206 and TPS > D1207)

then the upshift MPH is determined only by the PT upshift tables.

Joe
;)


Edit: could also try D1206 set to 100%... but be sure to try D1206 set to 99% first.

Edit: I mis-pasted earlier ... :doh:...and I corrected it now .

[joecar]

I corrected my silly mistake in post #97 (I'm sorry if you read it)... :cheers:

[cmitchell17]

I just tried it and it actually felt a little better. I put it in tow/haul where I have a lot less TR and it seemed to shift just as fast.

I have to go to work and once I get back ill datalog.

[cmitchell17]

One thing I want to know before I go any further...

Are my shift pressures safe, are they too high?

I have them ramp up right at around 220 to try to get high pressure during the WOT shift.

I just dont want to screw anything up.

Are my low torque pressures ok for normal shifting while drving around town?

[joecar]

C,

I looked at your latest .tun file and I think your shift pressures are ok... if you feel like it, you can soften them up a little in the middle, but not if it softens the shift.

I think your low torque pressures are ok.

Your TR curves spike up in the middle... is that what you want (that will soften the shift where it spikes up)...?
Oh... copy your tow/haul TR tables to your normal TR tables, that would be fine.

Joe

[joecar]

I just tried it and it actually felt a little better. I put it in tow/haul where I have a lot less TR and it seemed to shift just as fast.

I have to go to work and once I get back ill datalog.Reduce the amount of TR (see post #101) even in tow/hual mode...

The higher the TR curve, the more reduction will occur, and the softer the shift.

[cmitchell17]

I just reduced the TR when I left for work. The shifts feel like the hit harder like when it shifts you hear the engine rev down fast and hard.

I think we might be making progress.

I put the TR high because one time I tested it with little TR 5-10% it seemed like a really slow shift.

I have the tow/haul TR less so I can drive around but when I want to test the shift I can have little TR in tow/haul but still have a safe shift in normal mode.

Im going to go log it and test it again with a little less TR ill probably lower the force motor current another .015 again.

[joecar]

Ok... I see that you set D1207 to 100% and D1206 to 99%...

You may have to tweak the upper end of the PT upshift curves so that it shifts at the MPH/RPM you want... since now the WOT upshifts are being controlled by the PT upshift curves.

On my morning commute, I set my D1206 and D1207 both to 100% and it seems to be shifting purely from PT upshift curves; further experimenting on my evening commute (in a few minutes).

BTW: the Tune Tool shows the RPM's for a given MPH when you put the cursor on a cell in the PT shift tables.

[cmitchell17]

I think this next log explains what im feeling on the shift.

It feels like it slips for the first part of the shift then the pressure increase at the last part of the shift to speed it up.

I guess when I took off the WOT shift mode it made it shift a lot higher.

I accidentally logged some of the wrong PIDs.

Is the drop in pressure then the sudden increase a part of my problem.

For some wierd reason on the 1332 frame that shift chirped the tires a little, I dont no if it hit a bump or something the shift did not feel a lot diffrent, that was in tow/haul.

[joecar]

I don't see the log...?

What is TRQENG on the first part of the shift...?

[cmitchell17]

I need to go take one the last log I took I forgot to log engine torque. Im fixing to go out and take one.

Once else do I need to make sure I log?

234ftlbs 317nm right when the shift is commanded at 5600rpm.
286 388 as it falls to 4700rpm.
308 418 as it falls to 3800rpm.
304 412 as it goes to 3300rpm.
the rpm start to go back up to 3400rpm.

Ill get a log up as soon as I can.

[joecar]

At least these:

TRQENG
TFMPRS
GEAR
RPM
VSS
TP
SHIFTLAST
TCCMODE
DYNCYLAIR (expecting to be tracked by TRQENG)
TFT (just in case, if you haven't yet used 24 channels worth of pids).

[cmitchell17]

On my 1-2 shift I got a shifttime of .4 seconds, I pretty sure I was in tow/haul where I have the pressure come in sooner and less TR(5-10%).

The tires chirped again too but the shift felt good but smooth.

Look at frames 2300 Im pretty sure I was in tow/haul but its wierd becuase the rpms go up then like drop again or something, but my shift time was .4 seconds.

My internet is messing up im trying to post my attachment.....

[cmitchell17]

I cant post the attachment because everytime I try to post it it times out.

ill try again in a few minuets

[joecar]

Send by email...

click on my username on the left of my post, and in the menu that appears select "Send email to joecar".

[cmitchell17]

Alright here it is finally. My internet started working again.

[joecar]

How does that shift, is it firmer...?

Check the high ends of the PT upshift/downshift tables, make sure the upshift MPH is greater than the downshift MPH...
I edited this, see attached .tun file.

[cmitchell17]

The WOT shift on that felt pretty good but it chirped the tires which suprized me.

Today I was taking off probably about 40-50% throttle and when it shifted to second it chirped, but I think it was becuase the tires hit a spot on the road with some pine straw or something on it.

Something was wierd with that shift. It was like Right when it was shifting I let off, becuase I wasnt trying to go that fast but I needed to go through the shift to see how it was at WOT. So I let off right when it shifted or something.

[joecar]

If it's chirping, you can increase the TR curves and/or reduce the pressure curves a little.

[cmitchell17]

Ok I just went out and took a run.

I can say its getting better. Sometimes like when going up a hill the shift feels a little slow, but when downshifting from 30-35 then taking it all the way to redline the shift feels good and fast.

And chirping is what I like I dont mind it I think its cool.:D

Anyway it feels good but I think there is more in it, would the hard shift at WOT, that it could give, feel like the part throttle hard shift it gives now?

Can I go more pressure on the downshift? Or is it not worth it?

Another thing I like the non tow/haul part throttle shift.;)

Its the kind of shift that dosent throw your head back and forth but it is soft, but really quick.