what afr for autove?

[mr.prick]

what afr should i be averaging to be able to do the autove properly?
when i program the pcm like the tutorial says i run between 9+10afr
and the car runs very poorly. so i would like to know what i should be averaging,
and i`ll make adjustments for that.
thanks

[SSpdDmon]

You should set the Open Loop Fueling table to command 14.63:1 AFR when up to temp. Then, set your PE table the way you want (typically 12.5~13.0:1 AFR). The BEN's should take care of the rest.

**I'm assuming you're running N/A**

[joecar]

After you have done Auto VE, then your actual AFR's should match your commanded AFR's...

In OL, at any operating point, the PCM selects the richer of B3605 and B3618 (possibly modified by the modifier tables) as the commanded AFR;

Are your AFR units set to AFR, EQ, or Lambda...?

[mr.prick]

i set it up like that but i still run 9-10afr.
i`m doing something wrong.
yes n/a.

[joecar]

Post your tune (Go Advanced->Manage Attachments)...

[TAQuickness]

After making the first drive, have you applied the BEN factor corrections to the tune, reflashed, then re-logged?

[Redline Motorsports]

Is the wide band working properly? Who's WB is it and how do you have it configured?

Is the car pouring black smoke out the back?

[joecar]

Which AFR calc pid are you using...?

[Doc]

Is the wide band working properly? Who's WB is it and how do you have it configured?

Is the car pouring black smoke out the back?


Ditto...Should be making small furry wooded creatures cry and ALGORE running for his checkbook to decrease his carbon footprint.

[mr.prick]

yes the wideband is working properly,the tutorial says to set
c2901+c2903 to 1hz, i`m thinking it should be 0hz.
otherwise i`m stumped.

[TAQuickness]

How many times have you adjusted your VE table with the BEN factors?

[joecar]

yes the wideband is working properly,the tutorial says to set
c2901+c2903 to 1hz, i`m thinking it should be 0hz.
otherwise i`m stumped.Are you getting DTC P0101, P0102, or P0103...?

If not, then that's a problem, you'll have to physically disconnect the MAF sensor.

[mr.prick]

heres the tune 1363
like i said i think maybe the c2901+c2903 should be 0hz?
this has already had a dyno tune as well.
thanks

[SSpdDmon]

Ok...I see the problem. You added 15% across the board to the VE. That's a hair too much (reminds me of "JUST a bit outside"...lol). ;) Cams usually require less fuel down low and more fuel up top. So, 10% increase on the top end (above 2000 RPM) will probably be closer and you may be taking out some of the VE in the lower kPa regions. In the idle regions, you're VE is 30% too high if you're commanding 14.63 and seeing 10:1 AFR's.

(10/14.63=.68 & 1-.68=32% too much)

What's done to your car? I'm assuming you have an f-body based on the OS. M6 or A4?

I noticed the bigger cc's (6.3L), so I'm guessing it's got some decent work done. A couple of notes though. I would reset the Open Loop Fueling table back to stock, set the cells for 158*F & above to 14.63 (all kPa's), and then set the PE table the way you like it (or start PE @ 12.5 across the board to be safe and then move to 13). Remember, you're trying to simulate closed-loop. CL commands 14.63 until PE kicks in, which is based on other factors besides kPa (like TP% and RPM).

When you increase the cylinder size, the VE table automatically includes that in the fueling calculation (I believe). Therefore, the 15% extra adjustment was too much.

Also, why did you add so much to the Airflow Parked Table?

[mr.prick]

thanks
it seems to like the airflow that high.
i did what the tutorial said to do, i even tried it with a stock tune thats how i found it liked the airflow that high.
i`ve tried +10% across the board in the ve table and that was too much (it ran just as rich) i just want to tweak it a little more but don`t know a good starting point to go from.
should i just leave the ve table as is and go from there?
remeber this tune is the autove tune.

[SSpdDmon]

Yeah, AutoVE just means it's going to do the calculations for you based on your WBO2 readings (the formula I used above showing 32% rich). They say 15% in the tutorial because of boosted apps and such I think. But for NA, I'd say it's a little much.

On a side note, I asked about the Airflow Parked Table because that's for key-on and key-off scenarios according to the description box. The guy that tuned my car jacked that table up and the car didn't want to shut off right away. If you were doing it to help compensate for poor starts, there's some other tables that I would point you to.

Also, are you running more displacement with the stock injectors???? If you have larger injectors, you also need to increase the Injector Flow Rate table. There's a spreadsheet to help you calculate that here:
http://www.allmod.net/hpt/injectors.xls
Just select the EFI Live tab at the bottom, fill in the first few cells and it'll do the rest. I set this file up using the current injector table though. So, you'll need to adjust the VE if you change the IFR table.

Try starting with the attached file. When you right click, save target as..., just make sure it saves it as a .tun file and not a .php file.

[ringram]

Yeah stock NA you can not scale ve at all.
Its there so the author doesnt get blamed for blowing your engine up rather than being the ideal start point.

[TAQuickness]

Rigram - you are correct. 15% is a CYA technique. Unfortunately, too many folks will just grab a nugget off the internet and not question it's validity or they just simply don't know to ask. So how do you write a tutorial that will work for 99% of all applications? Make it safe.

Mr. Prick - You've gotten a lot of really good advice, but the question still remains, how many times have you applied the BEN factors to your tune? It really helps us to know how far you've actually gotten into the tutorial so we can point you in the right direction.

If you've not applied the BEN's yet, then you need to.

If this is your second or subsequent application of the BEN's then something else is wrong and we need to go down a different path.

[SSpdDmon]

Rigram - you are correct. 15% is a CYA technique. Unfortunately, too many folks will just grab a nugget off the internet and not question it's validity or they just simply don't know to ask. So how do you write a tutorial that will work for 99% of all applications? Make it safe.

Mr. Prick - You've gotten a lot of really good advice, but the question still remains, how many times have you applied the BEN factors to your tune? It really helps us to know how far you've actually gotten into the tutorial so we can point you in the right direction.

If you've not applied the BEN's yet, then you need to.

If this is your second or subsequent application of the BEN's then something else is wrong and we need to go down a different path.
Looking at his tune, he hasn't applied any BENs yet. He had the whole VE table +15% and the cylinder volume was increase to reflect a 6.28L engine. The tune I posted should get him a lot closer.

[mr.prick]

thanks guys.
i haven`t been able to do anything because of the whole super rich thing.
this is my second tune done by someone with a dyno.
the car makes good power but the ltfts are not quite right and i found my pe was set at 9afr!
i just want to get this thing inline.

[mr.prick]

is this tune for adjustments instead of the autove tutorial type tune?
do i run it in ol sd mode?

[SSpdDmon]

The one I posted should get you closer to where you need to be to do the AutoVE. All I did was take your tune and make some changes to the VE, Open Loop Fueling, and PE tables. Everything else you did is there. It still sounds like you're a little confused. I'd suggest re-reading this thread and making sure you understand the advice that's been given. If you're unsure about something, we'll be glad to answer your questions...

[joecar]

Read the AutoVE tutorial again (may be tedious but worthwhile)... :cheers:

When you do the AutoVE to dial in the VE table, leave the PCM in OLSD (i.e. leave closed loop disabled and MAF disabled, at least for now), and after a few iterations post your BEN map and log file here in this thread...

See posts #1 and #2 here: showthread.php?t=3064 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=3064)

Checklist:
a. which wideband do you have...?
b. which pins is it connected to on the FLashScan module...?
c. which AFR and BEN calc pids are you using...?
d. do you see DTC code P0103...?
e. do you see any other DTC...?
f. using the tutorial, did you set up the BEN map correctly...?
g. using the tutorial, did you set up the tune correctly for doing Auto VE (post it here)...?
h. what injectors do you have, if not stock...?
i. is your fuel pressure good...?
j. does your IFR table match your injectors and your fuel pressure...?
k. do you understand how to apply the BEN map to the VE table (and flash to PCM)...?


If the MAF successfully "fails" (DTC P0103), and
if closed loop is prevented, and
if you have the correct AFR calc pid for your wideband's AFR-V points, and
if your IFR table is correct,
then as you successively apply the BEN map to the VE table,
the actual AFR will converge to commanded AFR (BEN map approaches all 1.00's).

If you can do this, the car will run very well (even tho it is in OLSD)... :cheers:
get to this point first, and do NOT enable the MAF or closed loop yet.

:)

[mr.prick]

yes this seemed to work much better but still a bit rich like 10.6afr.
after the filter was applied the ve table changed but i haven`t run it yet.
here is sspdmon`s ve table 1375
here it is after paste and multiply. 1377
how does that look?

[joecar]

Post a pic of the BEN map from the Scan Tool.

[joecar]

yes this seemed to work much better but still a bit rich like 10.6afr.
after the filter was applied the ve table changed but i haven`t run it yet.
here is sspdmon`s ve table 1375
here it is after paste and multiply. 1377
how does that look?Is that AFR on iteration #1...?

[mr.prick]

1380

[joecar]

Your BEN map looks like attached pic.

Have you paste-multiplied this into the VE table...?

Remember to save the file and flash it to the PCM (cal only flash).

After you do this, and go for a drive (iteration #2), those same cells should be closer to 1.00; post logs of iteration #2.

Sanity check: see the second attached image (AFR or EQ units, not Lambda).

To see better what is going on, change your selected pids to the following (you already have some, keep these, delete the ones that are not on this list, for now):
RPM
TP
VSS
SPARKADV
KR
MAP
ECT
IAT
FTC
DYNAIR
DYNCYLAIR_DMA
AFR
AFR_LC11
BEN_LC11

If you have auto. trans., also include the following:
GEAR
TFMPRS
TRQENG
SHIFTLAST
TCCMODE
TFT

The number of channel used will be less than 24.

Save your pid selection in a file ("OLSD.pid").

[joecar]

Also, make sure you don't have any air leaks in the intake and exhaust.

[mr.prick]

the second ve table ran rich so i didnt bother to run it(9afr)
should i drive the car for a while before any logging at all?
is there more filter i should use?

[joecar]

If it's tending rich then you may be using Lambda units without realizing.

Post your 2nd log.

[mr.prick]

heres my latest log and ve table
what is a good filter to use?
all my settings are imperial and afr.
1389

1390

[SSpdDmon]

Can you post up the tune that was in the car during that last log?

[mr.prick]

1391
here it is it is still a bit rich
i change the rich cells about 5% each time to get it closer.
i`m not sure how the paste and multiply works. every time i do that the cells crash, so i change a block of them by hand,but its getting closer.(i think)
afr is in the 11`s in lower rpm range. is there a setting for the paste options?
(i.e. a percentage of change for paste multiply, paste add, paste subtract)
thanks

[joecar]

In the scan tool BEN map, right click in upper left corner (where the column and row headings intersect; all cells become highlighted) and select Copy with Labels;

Then in the tune tool VE table, right click in upper left corner and select Paste->Paste and Multiply with Labels.

[SSpdDmon]

1391
here it is it is still a bit rich
i change the rich cells about 5% each time to get it closer.
i`m not sure how the paste and multiply works. every time i do that the cells crash, so i change a block of them by hand,but its getting closer.(i think)
afr is in the 11`s in lower rpm range. is there a setting for the paste options?
(i.e. a percentage of change for paste multiply, paste add, paste subtract)
thanks

Based on the log you posted, a little educated guessing, and some hand smoothing, here's the new tune with an updated VE table. WOT will most likely be a little lean...so, when you go to do that, keep an eye on the WB AFR. You may need to add more in the upper cells for WOT.

Until you get close, the BEN's are going to put some nice "dents" in your VE table. Ideally, you only want to use cells you have enough data for. I usually shoot for 50+ hits in a cell. That way, there aren't too many spikes when you highlight the data, copy, and paste multiply into the tune. The other filter I use is to exclude data where TP% is changing more than 2% every 500 miliseconds. That'll help cut down on transitional inaccuracies.

[mr.prick]

actually its a bit lean down low but better through out.
what should my pe ratio be set at for auto ve?
i have it at 12.5afr
am i looking to be 14.63afr through out the rpm range no matter what or is it ok to be rich at wot?

[SSpdDmon]

Ideally, the way the PCM operates from the factory is it commands 14.63 (once in closed loop) until PE is enabled. A good place to start with PE is in the 12.2~12.5 range IMO. Once you get the commanded AFR to match the actual AFR, then you can start trying to find where it makes power by tweaking AFR and spark. From the factory, PE is richer in the high 11's, which is too rich.

[hquick]

I'm also in the process of AutoVE.
I ran a log today in which I acquired alot of data (about 30-45mins driving), but with all of the filters recommended to me it all disappeared after filtering.
My actual AFR is also well below my measured AFR.
I've come across various descrepencies in the AutoVE tutorial and now I'm not really sure what to do?
Any advice would be great.

Current tune and today's log attached. (I haven't applied that log yet)

Thanks