EGT K type Thermocouple Probe

[Beer99C5]

What are the benefits of logging EGT? Is it worth the trouble for self tuning on a daily Driver (ocassional Nitrous spray?) or is it overkill?

Is this compatable with V1?

Product: #Caspers 103301 - EGT K type Thermocouple Probe
Price: $59.95
Category: PCM & Electrical
Availability: In Stock
Manufacturer: Caspers Electronics
Weight: 2.00

[Doc]

Yes it will work with V1. Not sure of the benefit for a gasser that already employs a WBO2. Definetly a must for the diesel crowd. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable will pipe in. Bump for ya.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

I am not the greatest historian but I think EGT was the affordable/more possible option before WB came on the market. Maybe that is why it has such hold.

I wonder why it seems airplanes use EGT and not WB?

[killerbee]

I wonder why it seems airplanes use EGT and not WB?

same reason the TD crowd does. To protect the turbine.

[ScarabEpic22]

I know on outboards EGTs are used to dial in tuning, dont think there's a feasible way to get a WBO2 in one of them! lol

[Meghan]

I wonder why it seems airplanes use EGT and not WB?


Aviation fuel for piston engine aircraft still contains lead.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

Aviation fuel for piston engine aircraft still contains lead.

Aww! I see. I know turbines need to watch core temps: Pin 3701 (CRJ200) from a couple years ago.

But I was orginally referring to piston aircraft. You nailed it though. Thank you for your response.

[scdyne]

Everyone thinks EGT when talking about Thermocouples (TC), but don't forget that a K type TC can accurately measure temperature ranges from below -200°C to above 1200°C. This means that you can basically use them for any temperature you want to measure in your vehicle. Depending on the type of probe end you use you can even get fast response in IAT or CHT.

Personally I don't waste my TC's on EGT since I run a WB02, however I almost always have more than a few located before and after the intercooler and before and after the compressor (supercharger).

Mind you given unlimited resources I would run at least 1 EGT after a Turbo or 1 at each exhaust port if supercharged.
The point is EGT may not be important for most of us with a WB02, but having the ability to record temperatures can be an invaluable tuning tool for hashing out the thermal performance of any system.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

You are correct and I have actually be experimenting with just that.

When I was having trouble with my IAT I used a thermocouple to compare the IAT sensor against another sensor to see if underhood temps were really getting that hot AND where could I move a sensor to get less error.

:)

GOOD POST!

[redhardsupra]

six speed, which type of thermocouple did you use for the IAT comparison? i'm in the market for few of them currently...

[2002_z28_six_speed]

Mine are T21's from Temprel. You can order them in a huge variety of formats. They look exactly like the ones on the front page but mine have yellow bodies.

http://www.temprel.com/

I can't tell you who has the best thermocouples out on the market though. I have only ever owned these. Seem to work ok. This kind of sensor definetly has more latency than a WB. Perhaps choosing the shortest probe lenght you can will help with the fact the sensor has to change temp.


I can tell you this. The thermocouple won't be a good indication of the exact temp but it will give you the jist of where it is within maybe 5-10C.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

Hey RHS! I had a second thought. You couldn't log this but you might be interested in getting a laser thermometer. Those are highly accurate as far as reading surface temps. Best of all they are relatively cheap and useful for MANY things.

[killerbee]

do you mean infrared?

Notoriously innacurate, though they have great repeateable innaccuracy.

They are highly prone to absorbtivity and emissivity error, the texture and color of the object component is the difference. 2 objects, one shiny aluminum, and the other black rubber, might have the same surface temp, but can show 100 degrees different

[scdyne]

http://www.omega.com has a great technical on TC's and a few helpers for purchasing what you need for a given application. (gas, liquid, etc.)

I could go into exhausting detail about shielding material, how the tip is presented, special limits of error, table look-up vs. sensitivity curves, bla, bla, bla, HOWEVER most of the that all becomes irrelevant when you consider how the raw voltage signal is acquired, processed and presented to us via EFILive hardware.

EGT probes:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5427&highlight=egt

It looks as if the way EFILIVE handles TC's could be the primary limiting factor in accuracy and sensor choice.

Maybe one of the guys could chime in on an official detail as to how TCs are processed to clear things up?

I'd like to know;
1. Do they use a NIST table Look-up or an approximate sensitivity of 41 µV/°C method?
2. What is the resolution of the analog inputs? (Bits)
3. What is the sample rate, filter and sampling method?

Once we know this then I can suggest specific TC's as inexpensive as $20 a piece and an accuracy of 1°C/sec.

--

[scdyne]

do you mean infrared?

Notoriously innacurate, though they have great repeateable innaccuracy.

They are highly prone to absorbtivity and emissivity error, the texture and color of the object component is the difference. 2 objects, one shiny aluminum, and the other black rubber, might have the same surface temp, but can show 100 degrees different

I have to agree with this 100%. Infrared TC's are generally useless and basically an example of technology not improving accuracy or performance.
They do have a place in controlled environments where physical contact is impossible. Then and only then they can be very reliable and accurate.

I deal with TC's daily in my 9to5 with engines and their supporting systems and I have done a few reports on them.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

do you mean infrared?

Notoriously innacurate, though they have great repeateable innaccuracy.

They are highly prone to absorbtivity and emissivity error, the texture and color of the object component is the difference. 2 objects, one shiny aluminum, and the other black rubber, might have the same surface temp, but can show 100 degrees different

I don't think that is what I have. I have a handheld gun with a class 2 laser. It says it is a laser thermometer and the light is definetly visable.

The laser thermometer and factory IAT sensor were pretty close. My TC ended up -+ about 10 C.



http://www.omega.com has a great technical on TC's and a few helpers for purchasing what you need for a given application. (gas, liquid, etc.)

I could go into exhausting detail about shielding material, how the tip is presented, special limits of error, table look-up vs. sensitivity curves, bla, bla, bla, HOWEVER most of the that all becomes irrelevant when you consider how the raw voltage signal is acquired, processed and presented to us via EFILive hardware.

EGT probes:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5427&highlight=egt

It looks as if the way EFILIVE handles TC's could be the primary limiting factor in accuracy and sensor choice.

Maybe one of the guys could chime in on an official detail as to how TCs are processed to clear things up?

I'd like to know;
1. Do they use a NIST table Look-up or an approximate sensitivity of 41 µV/°C method?
2. What is the resolution of the analog inputs? (Bits)
3. What is the sample rate, filter and sampling method?

Once we know this then I can suggest specific TC's as inexpensive as $20 a piece and an accuracy of 1°C/sec.

--


Sounds like from your experiences+knowledge it might be better to get EGTs connected to an aftermarket controller and then have the controller feed the FSV2 a 0-5V signal? That could reduce error if an answer can not be obtained.

[redhardsupra]

scdyne, you sound like you know your stuff, so just please tell us what's the best thermocouple(without completely breaking the piggy bank) for measuring airtemp in the intake tract. i've looked at hundreds of thermocouples, with different parameters and i couldnt find one that would be a drop-in solution, just much faster and more precise. people use the omega 44005 probe (http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=44000_THERMIS_ELEMENTS&Nav=temd11) but there's gotta be a faster one out there.

[scdyne]

Update:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4593
I'm guilty of not using the search button. Doh!

Counts = 850
Sample Rate = 10 Hz
Filter = ?? maybe a 5 point average or 10 Hz butterworth ??

2002_z28_six_speed,
Sorry the LED laser you see is nothing more than a pointer for the IR laser that is actually reading the temperature.


Sounds like from your experiences+knowledge it might be better to get EGTs connected to an aftermarket controller and then have the controller feed the FSV2 a 0-5V signal? That could reduce error if an answer can not be obtained.

solution:Use a higher resolution acquisition system with 16bits of resolution or greater. Also one that uses thermal compensation at each input and a dynamic adjustable Butterworth filter. And for good measure a TC calibrator to verify your system. All said and done you'll spend a thousand dollars on hardware, software and calibrator for an increase in sensitivity from 4°C @ 10Hz to 1°C @ 100 Hz.

Serious high end mobile acquisition hardware that is often used by GM and BMW (for example) is HBM MGCPlus and/or National Instruments PXI chassis. Each of these systems run in the $50,000+ range when you add the necessary cards and software and provide the ultimate in resolution. (0.025°C @ 9600Hz+)

We use HBM and NI hardware on a regular basis in our testing, but unless it's a critical safety of test temperature it's measured with a $100 Fluke TC reader or a scanner that scans 64 channels a second.

I think my point is that while the FSV2 offers a smaller resolution it's accurate enough for most anything we would want to measure on a vehicle with the right TC.

For IAT, CHT (open Air temps) I would pick exposed element TC assemblies http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=JTIN
or just simple TC wire
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=5TC

For liquid based temps I would pick an ungrounded element
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=JTIN
or even the NPT threaded units (like the ones listed in other threads)
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=TC-NPT

[Blacky]

FlashScan's thermocouples are sampled at 5Hz.
They are controlled by two MAX6675 K-Type Thromocouple controller chips.
http://www.maxim-ic.com/getds.cfm?qv_pk=3149
12 bit resolution, 0.25degC accuracy. 0-1024 degC range.
Temperature updates are sent from the MAX6675's to FlashScan via an SPI link every 200ms.

Regards
Paul

[bballer182]

Would these http://www.omega.com/Temperature/pdf/TC-NPT.pdf be suitable for EGT probes?

[2002_z28_six_speed]

Yes. Basically any thermocouple with the K calibration. Just be sure to order the K calibration. You just have to get one where you can easily mount it or find some sort of mounting solution.

I have a couple.

I have been wondering about using them for trans temp and rear end temp just for fun.

[kbracing96]

Also, MUST be NON-grounded K-type. A grounded type will not work with EFILive. I have one on my 4.8 just for grins :)

[bballer182]

I forgot to mention that it was for diesel. And yes they would be perfect for diesel. did some more searching around last night.

[2002_z28_six_speed]

True that. The problem is finding this style thermocouple for which application (mounting style). I have to wonder what is the best way for exhaust temp measurement. The band clamp thermos? How far from the port?

[chpspecial]

Sorry for bringing up an old post, but i figure it is most appropriate here. What is a good target EGT to shoot for when tunning a boosted vehicle. I just installed a TC and have seen 1595*f at 9psi. Don't know yet at 10psi or 15psi. Before anybody tells me different, I have dialed in my VE table with a Wideband o2 sensor. What I want to do next is see at what commanded AFR my EGT will be lowest, but need to now what is the safest max EGT I should keep away from. Thanks all.