o2 sensors and fueling

[vatman02]

call me stupid if you must but i need a little,:nixweiss: help how much do the stock 02 sensors control fuel, when i step on the throttle 10% or so they go way lean 20+:1 stock o2 drop to 30-50 mv but only on the initial opening then it levels off at A/F 14.7 880-910 mv i let off the gas throttle closed o2s go 950+ mv a/f is 10.5:1 car idles at 14.7 a/f it only does this while driving sittting in the drive it runs fine i've tried changing IFR to no avail i have preety much all the bolt ons fast 90 intake starr 94 mm t/b cnc ls6 heads .576 intake .581 exaust 112 cam motron 60# injectors it just started this after the install of the new D1SC i put on last week has anyone seen this before i read another post that seemed to have the same type of problem but it turned out to be the injectors i have a log file but im not sure how to include it :confused: any help would be greatly appreciated thank in advance :master: :thankyou2:

[Redline Motorsports]

For starters...........buy a wide band for analyzing AFR.

Secondly..........the IFR table is a constant table. This meaning it requires specific data that does not get adjusted after being set. You need to find one of the IFR spreadsheets to calculate the correct IFR for the injectors you are using and leave it alone.

You really should review some of the tutorials on how to do the AutoVE tuning. You should start by getting your VE table correct and then calibrate the MAF. The days of tuning off the stock narrow band o2's is a thing of the past. You will end up learning more about tuning and really getting your car dialed in by buying a WB!;)

Howard

[vatman02]

thanks for the reply wasnt sure if anyone would any way ive got an LM1 already thats where i got the a/f #s from already used the the ifr xcel sheet and put that data in the maf is stock and i have been told not to mess with that table as long as it is stock will the ve table affect the a/f that much when i look at the data i logged the only thing that i can see changing with the a/f ratio is the o2 mv map is constant as well as maf frequency thanks Howard

[vatman02]

how much should i increase the ve table for auto tune i should be seeing 8# of boost at wot all the fueling issues are at part throttle while driving in town seems to run well when i get on it a/f at 12.5 except for the initail throttle opening when it goes lean 18:1 or higher its an m6 so every time i shift gears when the throttle opens again its way lean seems like a good way to melt the stock pistons

[vatman02]

tried auto ve the car wont even start went through the steps reflashed 3 times i got nothing im at loss i cant even take the car out to log it runs like crap seems the more i mess with it the worse it gets :bash: any advice on where to go from here thank you vatman02

[ViolatorTA]

You eliminate the MAF for VE tuning leaving you without it to compensate for the cam. Cammed cars usually need the lower RPM area of the VE table reduced to get you running.Up to the 1200rpm range . I kept lowering a little at a time until it idle close to my set AFR for that cell. The IFR table will also need to be correct. Get the spreadsheet if you havn't already. I then dialed in all idle areas to get that somewhat decent then went on to VE tuning which I still keep messing with till this day. Took a couple month break from the car.

[vatman02]

just ran the in auto ve runs pretty well after new ve table but i am still having issues with the closed throttle fueling it reads 10.8:1 on my lm1 IFR table dialed in with xcel worksheet not sure what to change to fix excess fuel at 5-0% TP

[vatman02]

anyone have any ideas i still have part throttle fuel issues fuel trims dont fix it maf adjustment didnt fix it lower ipw did nothing auto ve tells me to pull 20% so i did then ran auto ve again says pull 20% i did car runs like crap reverted to original auto ve car runs great except at part throttle

[joecar]

Are you doing AVE in Open Loop , MAF-less, COT-less, DFCO-less...?

[vatman02]

yes i followed the tutorial to the letter i have attached my last log

[vatman02]

oops wrong log the other was a maf enabled one

[vatman02]

still new at this

[vatman02]

so i changed b4003 to 1.0 b4004 to 1.0 and b4005 to zero and that helped get the afr up to 13:1 but while driving it fluctuates between 13 and 17 alot causing surging so i raised all 3 calc. but it really didnt help seems that the injectors may be to big i live in denver where normal map pressure w/key on is only 82 kpa just not enough air any thoughts

[joecar]

vatman02,

Do this:

a. calculate your IFR table using the spreadsheet and the rated flow/pressure for your Motron 60 lb injectors...
Quoted from dc_justin in another thread: Mototron 60s... (63.2# @43.5psi).
You should measure your rail pressure and enter this into the spreadsheet.

b. Update to COS5... this has a VE table indexed by TPS vs RPM... you can use this table below some RPM and the regular VE table above that RPM; so with a cam, you don't need to run the MAF sensor if you don't want to (if you want to, you must dial in the MAF table also).
COS5 has a boost VE table you can dial in to help with your D1SC.

c. follow the AutoVE tutorial exactly (like Redline (Howard) said above), because this (and step a.) is what will get your AFR's dialed in, and this will get your LTFT's close to zero when you go back to closed loop (if you really want to do run CL).
Oh, I see that you are following the tutorial... then do step a. and repeat.

It's been debated (elsewhere) whether you should trust your NBO2's.

Cheers
Joe
:)

[joecar]

call me stupid if you must but i need a little,:nixweiss: help how much do the stock 02 sensors control fuel, when i step on the throttle 10% or so they go way lean 20+:1 stock o2 drop to 30-50 mv but only on the initial opening then it levels off at A/F 14.7 880-910 mv i let off the gas throttle closed o2s go 950+ mv a/f is 10.5:1 car idles at 14.7 a/f it only does this while driving sittting in the drive it runs fine i've tried changing IFR to no avail i have preety much all the bolt ons fast 90 intake starr 94 mm t/b cnc ls6 heads .576 intake .581 exaust 112 cam motron 60# injectors it just started this after the install of the new D1SC i put on last week has anyone seen this before i read another post that seemed to have the same type of problem but it turned out to be the injectors i have a log file but im not sure how to include it :confused: any help would be greatly appreciated thank in advance :master: :thankyou2:The NBO2's output something like 450mV when the actual AFR is 14.7... so the red part indicates that something is wrong (since 910mV indicates much richer than 14.7).

Hmmm... scratching my head... you may want to double check your NBO2's and your LM-1.

[vatman02]

thanks for the info joe it looks like this issue has to be put on the back burner again i upgraded to the cos 5 this afternoon was out logging for auto ve went and bought some gas then had major problems car boggs down bad under boost then the battery gave up on my laptop not sure what it is hope its bad gas i'll get back to tomorrow :bawl: :beer:

[vatman02]

ok so i made some adjustments to the lm1 based on info i found here i have one input on the plx 0v = 10 5v = 20 other input i change the lm1 settings in sae_generic.txt:badidea: to 0v =11 5v=16 then programmed lm1 to same hooked up both logged both afr was around 13.3 on both one just made faster adjustment still seeing the 850-910:nixweiss: mv went and did an auto ve drive for and hour or so at low map and rpm :bash: [still have bad gas cant go more than 50% throttle or over 4500 rpm without getting 4 deg. kr]:bash: filtered and the ben values were within 1% of each other so the lm1 was a little off but the end result was the same auto ve says i need to pull 15-20% from 35 kpa down from rpm 800-3200 i can do this 3 times and get the same result each time but the motor runs a little worse every time ive read that a couple of others are dealing w/the same issue but havent fixed it yet either :idea: ill put stock injectors back in and see what that does i just keep thinking there to big:damnit1:

[joecar]

Maybe you have too much timing... post your tune in this thread.

[vatman02]

it was ok last week :nixweiss: but i forgot that they change over to a summer mix without the oxygenator mtbe i just put in 5 gal of 100 octane to see if it helps but i wont get to it until tomorrow:cheers: thanks for the help joe:master:

[5.7ute]

vatman02 do you have a log file for you last tune file? The last log file shows you commanding an afr of 14.63 which will allow fuel trimming from the narrowbands to occur with the custom os. This would of upset your autove data.
I noticed you have addressed this in your latest tune but there is no log file to suit.

[vatman02]

here is the last log i have it is mostly part throttle and low rpm because of the KR but there are a few 100% tps first one at 16:22 its only 4 deg. but that is all that is commanded at high rpm i can here the detenation its raining now so i still cant see if 100 octane worked my car is a garage queen and doesnt like getting wet thanks for the effort 5.7ute

[vatman02]

can someone tell why my v7.42 does not have cos5 i just noticed that i am using cos3 thanx

[5.7ute]

Have you managed to do any more logging with good known fuel yet? Also have you chased down the issue with the knock sensor ?

[vatman02]

i didnt log anything but i am still getting kr and then my check engine light came low voltage knock sensor i going to wait for it cool down and pull a spark plug maybe they got fouled from all the extra fuel ive just the last 5 hours trying to afr to track the commanded i just cant figure out what would be telling the injectors to dump fuel at part throttle this has been my biggest issue until the this week so i thought i would spend some time on it but i got nothing but a big head ache i'll go do a log run now after putting in some more 100 octane

[vatman02]

well it is defenitly running better but not as good as it was before the bad gas it looks like some of the knock is coming from a lean condition at high map high rpm i havent really done any tuning on these areas of the ve table i did some smoothing on the lower ve table and it is off about 5% looks like ill have run the auto ve again to get things back in line should i add some fuel,pull some timing,then increase ve table then run auto ve again oh wait i wont need to add fuel if i increase the ve is that correct heres the log i just did thanks for the help

[5.7ute]

Either I have your wrong tune or something funky is going on. You are showing a commanded fuel of 14.63 all the way to 90kpa where it then richens up. In the last tune you posted B3647 shows a commanded of 11.95 from 80kpa up so this should be the commanded mixture. The KR is starting around the 75 kpa range so you could try richening it up a bit earlier.

[vatman02]

that would be my fault i had been changing things and must have gone to far ill correct it double check everything and try again thank you

[vatman02]

logged some more with the corrected tune turned out i flashed an early tune that was different still had no change in kr i just dont get it was it fine last week the only thing that changed was the gas i'm going to drain the tank and try with race gas only if that doesnt work i dont know what im going to do is it possible something is broken and causing it to knock it is just stock internals or maybe the knock sensors went bad i di get low voltage check engine light a couple times

[5.7ute]

Post up your last log.
I was also thinking about a mechanical issue since the knock is coming with some fairly low timing. However until the fuelling is better in these areas it is hard to tell.

[vatman02]

its definitly getting the fuel it needs and i have 9 gal. of 100 octane the tank only holds at best 15 so it shouldnt be the gas and the plugs looked ok thanks for your time

[joecar]

Can you hear the knock...?

[vatman02]

no not at all but i can feel the motor bogging down it takes a long time to increase rpm (well longer than it used to)

[Chuck L.]

What's the fuel pressure doing while this is going on??

[joecar]

After viewing your log/tun files, some comments:
- your LM-1 seems to not be working right compared to your PLX (assuming your VE table is good), or vice-versa (assuming VE table is bad).
- your VE table looks strange to me (anyone care to chime in...?)
- your Hi Octane table seems too high (to me) for your D1SC, and your log shows KR with advance ending up at 19*.
- DFCO looks like it's is enabled.
- Have you checked/recaculated your IFR table...?
- Do you have any air leaks...?
- What are your LM-1/PLX voltage-AFR points...?
- Are you using the correct wideband AFR pid...?

[vatman02]

What's the fuel pressure doing while this is going on??the fuel pressure fluxuates between 58 and 62 i did the auto meter sending unit install i set the fuel pressure for 60# but when it was running better two weeks ago i would see spikes at 68 and dips around 46 at the end of a 145 kpa run the timing tune came with the blower i can revert to the stock one and


After viewing your log/tun files, some comments:
- your LM-1 seems to not be working right compared to your PLX (assuming your VE table is good), or vice-versa (assuming VE table is bad).
- your VE table looks strange to me (anyone care to chime in...?)
- your Hi Octane table seems too high (to me) for your D1SC, and your log shows KR with advance ending up at 19*.
- DFCO looks like it's is enabled.
- Have you checked/recaculated your IFR table...?
- Do you have any air leaks...?
- What are your LM-1/PLX voltage-AFR points...?
- Are you using the correct wideband AFR pid...?
it is acually the same meter one sensor just using both outputs two different voltage settings 1\6 avd2 plx 2 ben 2 0v+10 5v=20 1 adv1 _1\3 lm1 1 ben1 0v=11 5v=16 i changed the lm1 settings in the generic text to match this they also have different data transfer rates i did suspect an air leak and sprayed around the intake with starting fliud and didnt find any there i did log one narrow band with a range not in line with the othe three but when it heated up it went away my last auto ve came up .99-1.01 except below 40 kpa it idles at 40 kpa as for the strange ve table i had not done to muck auto ve at high MAP or RPM do to the stock internals i don wont break anything {YET} i would rather learn on this motor than then the new in the works it may or may not make a difference that i live at 5800 ft. i dont know but there it is with just the key on my MAP sensor reads at 82kpa sea level is around 101 befor the D1SC1 would see my map top out at 85 kpa at WOT at 6600 RMP i have change the IFR three times for fuel pressure of 58#-60#-62# with little effect on the rich condition even used the the BiDi controls to adjust AFR it did nothing but worked on the timming not sure whats up with the DFCO looks when i changed from C* to F* the number didnt make the transition ive some issues with some of the values not holding the changes i have had limited success with the A4005 reduced to 0 and - from 1.8-0 A4004 reduced to 1 A4003 reduced to 1 i picked 1.8 because it is what i logged at idle it is real lean at 16:1 but it was 12.3:1 before i will see if i can tweak it some then try to drive it i did this once before but it drove real bad i hope that answers your questions and thank you both for the help :rockon:

[vatman02]

whoa! :eek: :Eyecrazy: i just checked the loggs the lm1 afr is way off it did not look like that when i made it i believe what is going on is that you dont have the same sae_generic.txt settings for the lm1 as i do :badidea: i changed them to try and get a more acurate afr reading when i change them back to original i get lm1 afr 31.3 and plx 14.3:bash: sorry my fault:iamwithstupid: i didnt think of that when i changed it i'll put back they acually r within 1% of each other when i log both with there individual auto ve tables

[vatman02]

well a new day same old AFR :wave: i can get the AFR at idle to match commanded but when i get on the gas it is still rich i just found a wright up by RedHatSupra for calculating IFR with some custom pids i am going to give it a try tomorrow morning i still believe the injectors are too big/fuel pressure to high this should confirm what i suspected i will likely end up with neg. values in the ve at low map/rpm to command a small enough IPW i am considering a voltage regulator [2-3 bucks at radio shack] to lower pump voltage thus fuel pressure just to save on the cost of a fuel pressure regulator [100-200] any thoughts:nixweiss:

[vatman02]

well turns out the KS 1 wire was severed by the intake fixed that thought it would fix eveything not even close it appears my brand new D1SC has burned its bearring at only 450 miles looks like it will be while before i'll be doing much of anything will have call monday and see if they will fix it

[vatman02]

wow i had no idea that a faulty knock sensor would cause all that trouble everything works just dandy except the fueling i'm working on getting a pressure regulator to lower FP after looking at some old logs and the newest one i am seeing an AFR of 8:1 from about 115-145 kpa as well as 10:1 at 15-35 kpa everything in between i see values of .96-1.01 when i auto ve so its pretty close it changes everyday i found a calculator that says i should be using 40# injectors at 80% duty cycle thanks for all the advice guys