2-bar roadmap

[mistermike]

Not having read every thread available, I was somewhat under the impression that upon installing the modified O/S that kPa tables would be able to be extended out to 210 as apparently the "other" tuning product does. So it appears in that sense, a 2 bar mod is really no different between the standard and commercial versions.
Are there any plans to introduce that functionality so that baro updating doesn't have to be defeated?

[Blacky]

Not having read every thread available, I was somewhat under the impression that upon installing the modified O/S that kPa tables would be able to be extended out to 210 as apparently the "other" tuning product does. So it appears in that sense, a 2 bar mod is really no different between the standard and commercial versions.
Are there any plans to introduce that functionality so that baro updating doesn't have to be defeated?

EFILive has always maintained that our 2-bar solution did not involve extending any tables. EFILive (via Starr Performance and ChipMaster) have been tuning supercharged LS1's for many years. We have never found it necessary to extend the VE table.

The *only* reason to extend the VE table is to prevent loss of table resolution. The interpolation performed by the PCM compensates for the lower resolution extremely well.

You can also set our 2-bar up as 1.25 bar or 1.5 bar or 1.75 bar depending on your maximum boost settings. That gives back a lot of resolution for those that will not run all the way to 2-bar.

By the way, I believe the "other" tuning solution also turns off baro updating... Maybe someone can ask them and see what they say???

The reason you need a commercial license for the 2-bar mod is so that you can run dual spark maps in MAFless mode. To get the dual spark requires using one of our customised operating systems and that requires a full flash. Only our Commercial (or Workshop) version can perform a full flash.
If you have a Personal version and can find someone to perform the full flash for you, then you can tune the 2-bar setup with the Personal version.

Regards
Paul

[Blacky]

Just thought I'd better explain what is meant by interpolation.
The following image shows how the PCM "fills in" the correct values between the discrete cell values.

Some advocates of the "increased VE table resolution" would have you believe that if you did not increase the VE table you would end up with a "choppy" low resolution data set, represented by the pink line. The pink numbers are the actual values stored in the VE table, the white numbers are included as duplicates to represent the loss of resolution and so that Excel can draw the graph line.

In reality, the interpolation done by the PCM "smooths" out the "gaps" in the table by using a fast but effective weighted average of the cells around the required value. The interpolated half resolution lookup values are represented by the yellow line. The yellow numbers are the actual values stored in the VE table, the gray numbers are computed "on the fly" by the PCM.

The blue line shows what the original table resolution would be.

As you can see the pink line is *way* off and that is what "scares" some people into thinking that they need the increased resolution.
The yellow line is *very* close to the actual table resolution even though it's actual resolution has been halved.

I hope that sheds some "real world" light on the issue.

Regards
Paul

[SS2win]

You can also set our 2-bar up as 1.25 bar or 1.5 bar or 1.75 bar depending on your maximum boost settings. That gives back a lot of resolution for those that will not run all the way to 2-bar.

From my PM box:


There is no reason why the table has to be 2-bar, it could be 1.25 bar or 1.5 bar. It should "just work" depending on how you scale the MAP sensor using: {C6301}.

Normally for a full 2-bar setup you would adjust that scaler value until you get BARO=50kPa in the Scan Tool at Key-On.

If you wanted a 1.75 bar VE table, then you would adjust that scaler value until you get BARO=57kPa at KeyOn.

If you wanted a 1.5 bar VE table, then you would adjust that scaler value until you get BARO=66kPa at KeyOn.

If you wanted a 1.25 bar VE table, then you would adjust that scaler value until you get BARO=80kPa at KeyOn.

P.S. If any table lookup are indexed outside of the table row/colums, then the PCM uses the value from the table closest to the edge where the index went off the table.

Paul, one thing that would be REALY NICE is if you and Ross took a break from the daily grind, sat down together and wrote up a nice set of documentation on 2 BAR setup (and tuning). You guys know how it's done and have given out the information when asked but it is not in one place. Eventually I will write something up for myself and if it is good enough I might post it but for now and the forseeable future 2BAR SETUP NEEDS DOCS!!! :wink:

[mistermike]

Paul, once again, thanks for the clarification. I learn something every time I hear from you! It appears that the ECM interpolation alleviates any worries about the table resolution.
My main interest was the baro update, and if this is the way it's universally done, then there's not much point in beating a dead horse.

I have in the back of my mind an evil scheme to have my cake and eat it too. A time delay relay between the signal terminal of 1 bar and 2 bar MAP sensors that would allow the ECM enough time to sample BARO, then switch over to the 2 bar for running. Mwahahaha.

Does the ECM pull BARO as soon as the ignition is powered on, and how short an interval would one need before switching to 2 bar so as to avoid potential starting or idling problems? Or am I just full of s**t? :wink:

[Black02SS]

If you have a Personal version and can find someone to perform the full flash for you, then you can tune the 2-bar setup with the Personal version.

Regards
Paul

Woudn't this take away a license from your buddies "commerical" version or does a full re-flash not apply??

[SS2win]

commercial version is required to flash the custom OS. personal version can tune it no problem.

[Black02SS]

Right, I knew that, what I am inquiring about is if I do a Full flash on my buddies car to a custom OS, will I lose one of my licenses.

[SS2win]

Oops my ADD meter is pegged today.... good question :shock:

[Tordne]

Woudn't this take away a license from your buddies "commerical" version or does a full re-flash not apply??

Any type of flash, either calibration or full flash will require the use of a licence from the FlashScan cable. Just flick your buddy $99 and you will be all square again.

[Blacky]

Woudn't this take away a license from your buddies "commerical" version or does a full re-flash not apply??

Any type of flash, either calibration or full flash will require the use of a licence from the FlashScan cable. Just flick your buddy $99 and you will be all square again.

Yes, what he said - but if you then want to tune your setup using your Personal version then you will lose one of your own licenses as well. So it makes more sense to upgrade to Commercial yourself for only an extra $51 (on top of the $99 you would be giving your mate).

What I was thinking about when I posted, was someone with a Workshop version who could do it "free" - not using any PCM license slots.

Paul

[Blacky]

Paul, one thing that would be REALY NICE is if you and Ross took a break from the daily grind, sat down together and wrote up a nice set of documentation on 2 BAR setup (and tuning). You guys know how it's done and have given out the information when asked but it is not in one place. Eventually I will write something up for myself and if it is good enough I might post it but for now and the forseeable future 2BAR SETUP NEEDS DOCS!!! :wink:

I agree - Ross and I were talking about that last night....
But when we started designing EFILive "way back when", we decided we would not:

1. Offer precanned tunes
2. Offer tuning guides.
3. Explain to people how to tune a car.

Originally EFILive was designed for a workshop with EFI techs who knew how to tune. Then we made a "cut down" version, called Personal, then a hybrid version called Commercial. And now we find ourselves in this position. I understand the need for a 2-bar tutorial so we will see what we can do...

Regards
Paul

[SS2win]

Thanks Paul, I can live without tuning guides but a new software feature like 2bar is a little daunting for me at least... I'll stop my bitching now :D

[GMPX]

My say now :lol:

I don't think we ever gave the impression our 'initial' 2bar solution was to have an extended VE table and boost fueling etc. It was always said that to run a 2bar you just need to change a few values and retune, the inital release of our modded O.S was to allow you to keep the twin spark maps after going MAFless.

Certainly in the future we will probably release modded O.S's with enhanced features for boost as demand calls, but for now, this mod really does work fine, just ask the many 10sec blown cars that are running this way!!.

We have some great stuff lined up for O.S mods, I'll spare you all with the never been seen before routine, just keep an eye open in the next few weeks and months for the free O.S patches you guys can have.

Cheers,
Ross

[Dirk Diggler]

I'll spare you all with the never been seen before routine,


Thats rich!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

[mistermike]

Thanks, Ross
I hope I didn't give the impression in my original comment above that I thought you fellows had implied that there would be extended VE tables. It was purely my own assumption, based on the fact that because the other guys thought it was a big deal that it actually was. My apologies for my ignorance. Paul's rationale makes good sense to me.

My concern about having to defeat baro updates is based on the oft heard comments about SD being "fussy" and more subject to environmental factors than MAF, although I think temperature and humidity variations feed the MAF vs SD debates more so than altitude, at least among those who don't live near mountains.

In looking through the tuning tool, I haven't yet stumbled across any control for turning BARO updates on or off. Is this accomplished by default with the modified OS, or have I just not looked far enough.

[Scoota]

In looking through the tuning tool, I haven't yet stumbled across any control for turning BARO updates on or off. Is this accomplished by default with the modified OS, or have I just not looked far enough.
All your barometer settings are in the Engine Calibration_Barometer.
If you are looking at turning the baro off just raise the {B0301} to an RPM figure that you think you will never exceed. Or you can change the factory settings as you desire.

Cheers Scotty.

[mistermike]

Thanks, Scotty
What's confusing me is having been told that the BARO reading is taken at key on, and once the engine is pulling vacuum it's not possible to determine the barometric pressure. This is at odds with a setting that specifies an RPM range for the barometer. Hmmmmm.

[Blacky]

Thanks, Scotty
What's confusing me is having been told that the BARO reading is taken at key on, and once the engine is pulling vacuum it's not possible to determine the barometric pressure. This is at odds with a setting that specifies an RPM range for the barometer. Hmmmmm.

The baro is updated while the engine is running (if it has not been disabled).
Basically at WOT and low RPMS the manifold is pretty much at zero vacuum.

Do a test - check your MAP at key-on engine-off, then in a high gear at low speed, go WOT and see what the MAP reads - it will be *very* close if not the same as the original baro reading at key-on.

Paul

[mistermike]

I'll check that out. So scotty is correct then. Just changing the BARO parameters to something that will never be reached will disable it for a 2 bar tune, even the key-on engine-off sample? How does one set the "static" kPa value for PIDs that use the BARO?

[GMPX]

The boosted road map has made a sharp turn..... :wink:

[BlownAlaskan]

Ross,

Are you toying with us again.... :shock:

[wait4me]

the only words i have for ross are.. :) :D :P :shock: 8) So far so good.

[GMPX]

Thanks,

You know I am sitting here waiting for your Email letting me know if you are happy or if you are currently looking at a melting pile of LS1 :lol:

Cheers,
Ross

[wait4me]

lol, Sorry man, Ill email you... lol :) Nothing bad to report. All good,

[hpcubed]

Edit

[hpcubed]

Not having read every thread available, I was somewhat under the impression that upon installing the modified O/S that kPa tables would be able to be extended out to 210 as apparently the "other" tuning product does. So it appears in that sense, a 2 bar mod is really no different between the standard and commercial versions.
Are there any plans to introduce that functionality so that baro updating doesn't have to be defeated?

I have had the same question. I think that the ability to update the baro reading when using a 2bar map is almost more desirable than dual spark tables. Flame suit on but it seems that it would be much easier to implement a divide by 2 into the code for the Baro reading than utilize a secondary table for dual spark maps? Unitil the baro reading can be updated, I can't really consider the custom operating system upgrade as two bar support. However, I am a fan of the personal version. Any plans for modifying the software to allow Baro updating?

[hpcubed]

Edit

[hpcubed]

Just thought I'd better explain what is meant by interpolation.
The following image shows how the PCM "fills in" the correct values between the discrete cell values.

Some advocates of the "increased VE table resolution" would have you believe that if you did not increase the VE table you would end up with a "choppy" low resolution data set, represented by the pink line. The pink numbers are the actual values stored in the VE table, the white numbers are included as duplicates to represent the loss of resolution and so that Excel can draw the graph line.

In reality, the interpolation done by the PCM "smooths" out the "gaps" in the table by using a fast but effective weighted average of the cells around the required value. The interpolated half resolution lookup values are represented by the yellow line. The yellow numbers are the actual values stored in the VE table, the gray numbers are computed "on the fly" by the PCM.

The blue line shows what the original table resolution would be.

As you can see the pink line is *way* off and that is what "scares" some people into thinking that they need the increased resolution.
The yellow line is *very* close to the actual table resolution even though it's actual resolution has been halved.

I hope that sheds some "real world" light on the issue.

Regards
Paul

Paul,

I have a 99 C5. When I run in speed density mode, the computer uses the backup VE table for air flow calculations. However, when I log long term fuel trims, there is data for all cells meaning the resolution is the same as in the main VE table. I assume that the computer is interpolating between the cells similar to what you state above? Why do you think GM used a backup VE table? Also when tuning, I believe I should update the main VE with these values at the same time that I am updating the backup VE with the reduced resolution values? And finally I know - update my O.S. so I don't have to deal with a backup VE.

[bink]

Blacky wrote:
Just thought I'd better explain what is meant by interpolation.
The following image shows how the PCM "fills in" the correct values between the discrete cell values.



Can someone repost the Image Paul is referring to?? TIA.

Cheers,
joel


OOPS .....nevermind........ :oops:



:oops: :oops: :oops:

[Blacky]

I have a 99 C5. When I run in speed density mode, the computer uses the backup VE table for air flow calculations. However, when I log long term fuel trims, there is data for all cells meaning the resolution is the same as in the main VE table. I assume that the computer is interpolating between the cells similar to what you state above? Why do you think GM used a backup VE table? Also when tuning, I believe I should update the main VE with these values at the same time that I am updating the backup VE with the reduced resolution values? And finally I know - update my O.S. so I don't have to deal with a backup VE.

I have no idea why the PCM had a backup VE table. Maybe as a precaution against a corrupted main VE table. But it was removed very early in the PCM development cycle.

Paul

[hpcubed]

My say now :lol:

I don't think we ever gave the impression our 'initial' 2bar solution was to have an extended VE table and boost fueling etc. It was always said that to run a 2bar you just need to change a few values and retune, the inital release of our modded O.S was to allow you to keep the twin spark maps after going MAFless.

Certainly in the future we will probably release modded O.S's with enhanced features for boost as demand calls, but for now, this mod really does work fine, just ask the many 10sec blown cars that are running this way!!.

We have some great stuff lined up for O.S mods, I'll spare you all with the never been seen before routine, just keep an eye open in the next few weeks and months for the free O.S patches you guys can have.

Cheers,
Ross

What I was told when I purchased EFIlive was there would be two bar support. The initial two bar support would be in the form of a base tune. This was supposed to be available in March. When is this base tune going to be available?

[Blacky]

Some very nice 2-bar (and above) features have been tested last week and will continue to be tested this week. The features are working perfectly and will probably be released next week.

There will not be any vehicle specific pre-canned tunes, we will be providing the base operating systems only. It is up to each customer to tune his/her vehicle. That's the whole point of buying a Tuning Tool.
We will probably provide a sample tune for a couple of LS1 platforms so everyone can see what needs to be done.

Regards
Paul

[SS2win]

in the interest of kicking a dead horse, I would love to see a list of recommendations when going 2-bar. Did that script I sent you a few weeks back look even close to what should be done? I don't want you to provide tunes but some solid instructions for getting started would be great and take a little of the mystery out of the "two bar support".

[Blacky]

Ross and a few beta testers are working on nailing down mafless and 2-bar tuning with some really neat new features. Once they are done, I guess we will see some info on how it all works.

Paul

[hpcubed]

Some very nice 2-bar (and above) features have been tested last week and will continue to be tested this week. The features are working perfectly and will probably be released next week.

There will not be any vehicle specific pre-canned tunes, we will be providing the base operating systems only. It is up to each customer to tune his/her vehicle. That's the whole point of buying a Tuning Tool.
We will probably provide a sample tune for a couple of LS1 platforms so everyone can see what needs to be done.

Regards
Paul

Great. Looking forward to it. I don't think anyone is looking for a pre-packaged tune, just an example to go by and a few more helpful tools as you stated. Guess its about time for me to upgrade to the commercial version.

[ForcedC5]

Has there been any progress on the "sample tune" becoming available? I've just completed install of the PTK twins, WB and 2 bar and have started compiling all that's necessary to get her started. I've gathered info from a few changes to a whole boatload and nothing really pointing out what REALLY needs to be changed.. at least from what I can gather.

My plan is to confirm things are working and look good w/ only a 2bar (no SD) tune and then move to SD. The samples would be great to have just so that I don't go changing parameters I really don't need to.

[Blacky]

Yes, they were every close to being ready for release, the guys testing them were reporting *very* good results. However, our tech person who was working on getting them ready for "public release" is not well and won't be back on board for a few weeks.
Most of our projects' deadlines have been pushed back by 2-3 weeks.

Regards
Paul

[ForcedC5]

Yes, they were every close to being ready for release, the guys testing them were reporting *very* good results. However, our tech person who was working on getting them ready for "public release" is not well and won't be back on board for a few weeks.
Most of our projects' deadlines have been pushed back by 2-3 weeks.

Regards
Paul


You wouldn't mind expanding on that word *very* would ya? 8)

Thanks for the update and will be looking forward to it.. :D

[Blacky]

I'd love to, but I really don't *know* enough about what is being implemented (not my area). I've just heard that much of what has been done is good. I'm sure some explanations will make it out into the public in the next few weeks.

Paul