LC-1 widband hook up

[ace68]

can someone please help out a dummy? I have the LC-1 and have no idea how to make it work with this flashscan. I tried to do the step by step instructions found in the fourms here by cut and pasting it into the file as shown but I couldn't find the pid afterwords. also, on which prong should the Neg side of the wideband go into on the cable? the left side or right side? I need to go to the classes you are having but that's isnt for a while and would like to use the widband please help me thanks Ace68.

[Blacky]

You will probably need to uncheck the "Supported" check box in the [Data(F8)] tab page in order to see your new PID. It also makes it easier to see all your calculated PIDs by selecting (Calculated) in the System drop down list box.

If it has a red (or grey) cross through the icon then it is "not supported" for some reason. You can see the reason by right clicking on it and selecting "More info...".
Usually the reason wil be that you have not selected the required {EXT.AD1} or {EXT.AD2} PID.
If that is the case then choose "External" from the System drop down list box and select the {EXT.AD1} and {EXT.AD2} PIDs (it does not matter if they are both selected).
Then go back to the (Calculated) PIDs and see if the cross has gone from your wide band O2 PID.

The 3 pin plug is for A/D voltages (i.e. wide band input) see image for pin descriptions.

Paul

[ace68]

yes sir you do man!

bang it's on However, when I did the cut and past did I do it correctly as far as getting the proper air fuel because it is reading a mesurment of 12.1 at idel here is my file

# ================================================== ============================
# File details
# ------------
#
# This section defines various details about the file format.

*FILE

#Parameter Value Description
#---------- ---------------- ---------------------------------------------------
VERSION 7.1.1 File version
DECSEP . Decimal separator used in this file



# ================================================== ============================
# Units
# -------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on the *UNITS section

*UNITS

#Code System Abbr Description
#-------- ---------- -------- ------------------------------------------------------------
-----
afr None mafr "my air fuel ratio"


# ================================================== ============================
# Add slot definitions here
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on "SLOT" formats
#
#Units Low High Fmt Expression
#------------ ------------- ------------- ---- --------------------------------------------------------------

*CLC-00-001
AFR 10.0 20.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}*2+9"


# ================================================== ============================
*PRN - Parameter Reference Numbers
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on the *PRN section
#
#Code PRN SLOT Units System Description
#------------------------- ---- ------------ ---------------- ---------------- ------------------------------------------

CALC.ACME_AFR F001 CLC-00-001 AFR Fuel "my Wide band AFR"




You rock, your flash-scan rocks, me I don't rock so much.

thanks for your help dude you the man!

[ace68]

I think I may need to recalibrate the sensor tomorow because I think when I turned on the software that came with it I recalabrated the unit while it was inside the pipe. it was an mistake on my part. :cry:

[joecar]

Make this thread sticky.

[joecar]

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/LC-1_Manual.pdf

[87gmc]

so on SSpdDmon you can just replace the stock sensor with wb? I mean the pcm will still see it as a narrow band and the you can log on efilive as wide? Just got my lc-1 and ready to experiment

[Blacky]

so on SSpdDmon you can just replace the stock sensor with wb? I mean the pcm will still see it as a narrow band and the you can log on efilive as wide? Just got my lc-1 and ready to experiment

Check out this screen shot of the narrow band simulation from a wide band sensor: http://www.efilive.com/ss/w02_wot.gif

WO2 AFR = wide band
O2 SIM V = narrow band simulation.

In the bottom chart, the O2 sim is logged next to the actual factory narrow band so you can compare them side by side.

Paul

[87gmc]

so on SSpdDmon you can just replace the stock sensor with wb? I mean the pcm will still see it as a narrow band and the you can log on efilive as wide? Just got my lc-1 and ready to experiment

Check out this screen shot of the narrow band simulation from a wide band sensor: http://www.efilive.com/ss/w02_wot.gif

WO2 AFR = wide band
O2 SIM V = narrow band simulation.

In the bottom chart, the O2 sim is logged next to the actual factory narrow band so you can compare them side by side.

Paul

So paul im guessing this method works? I'm just trying to keep the pcm from going into fits

[GMPX]

I 'think' one of the problems is the O2 inputs to the PCM are kinda 'floating' (I might be wrong), but they are not just a simple GND and signal input. The 'Lo' side of the NBO2 output is not tied directly to GND.
Most of the simulated O2 outputs don't account for that, this can cause problems. I must confess, I've never tried the PLX simulated NBO2 output into a PCM, I have logged it and was impressed how close it tracked to a real NBO2 sensor.

Cheers,
Ross

[87gmc]

ok i get you. I'm trying to a figure a way to log my afr on efilive without having to put another hole in the exhaust. i figured if i just replaced the nb with the wb for a few logs there was a way to make the computer think the nb is still there.

Does leaving one of the nb disconneted for a few open loop runs affect the pcm in anyway?

[joecar]

See this...
http://efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1818

[joecar]

so on SSpdDmon you can just replace the stock sensor with wb? I mean the pcm will still see it as a narrow band and the you can log on efilive as wide? Just got my lc-1 and ready to experiment
The PCM sees the NB output (0.000 to 1.000mV).
EFILive sees the WB output (0.0 to 5.0V) via the FlashScan AD1 or AD2 input.
The LC-1 software lets you setup the LC-1 output voltage ranges (0.000 to 1.000mV for NB, 0.0 to 5.0V for WB); see the LC-1 manual.

[87gmc]

got it all installed. I put the WB in place of the narrow band then i tapped into the purple wire and hooked that to analog output one. The rest i left going to the hardness for the computer.

Question my narrow band on efilive is showing a constant volts around 448 or so its not switching? Is this normal or is there something else i need to do to make it switch.

Second, wb showing its running very lean when giving it gas at idle.

Third when i go into to the programmer for lc-1 its giving me some outrages voltages numbers and stating it is custom instead of 14.7 i switch it but it seems to always go back to that.

Also just put my nb sensor back in and connected everything back up computer still showing around 440 and hardly no switching, think my sensor took a dump or did i mess it up?

[PSWired]

You need to connect the NBO2 sensor ground to the analog ground wire on the LC-1 harness. This way the analog output from the LC1 is referenced to the same ground as the input on the PCM.

If the grounds were not connected together your PCM would likely be getting an inaccurate input from the LC-1 and would try to pull/add fuel to compensate for it, which would explain your wideband reading lean.

I can't explain why the sensor wouldn't be switching even after putting the stocker back in. Go ahead and clear out your LTFTs using the scanner bidi controls and see if that resolves the problem.

[87gmc]

Ok so i use the tan and purple wire. I was missing a wire Thanks for the help.


Figured out why the nb was working wire became lose from where i spliced it back together.

Thanks
PSWired

[BowlingSS]

Got my LC-1 hooked up this weekend and every thing is working fine. I used the plug under the drivers seat. Has anyone make a copper shield for their LC-1? Is it really needed? I guess it would not hurt.

Now to get some running time. How do you know when you have the VE table correct? I guess the autotune MAP would be 1.00. I am using 13.0 as my Commanded AFR. What will need to be changed after I get the VE table on? Should I keep the MAF? I guess I will need to make sure my PE vs RPM is set correct. What AFR should I go for?

Bill

[Black02SS]

Like I said on Tech, I like to use a AFR of 14.7 for everything from 122*+ and 15-70kPa. From 75 kPa - 105 kPa I set it to 12.96 and make sure my PE table is disabled by putting all fields to 14.7 or set the map to enable PE at 105. This will make tuning PE cake later as it is almost done already. Ditch the MAF.

[BowlingSS]

Like I said on Tech, I like to use a AFR of 14.7 for everything from 122*+ and 15-70kPa. From 75 kPa - 105 kPa I set it to 12.96 and make sure my PE table is disabled by putting all fields to 14.7 or set the map to enable PE at 105. This will make tuning PE cake later as it is almost done already. Ditch the MAF.

Thanks Black02SS. You have been a big help. Now if I could just get my idling to smooth out. It changed after the days started to get hotter and after a CatchPan install.

Bill

[Black02SS]

I can try and help your issues, but don't want to Hi-jack a thread. Hit me a PM or Email.

[ace68]

this is the calc_pids.txt I use


# ================================================== ============================
# File details
# ------------
#
# This section defines various details about the file format.

*FILE

#Parameter Value Description
#---------- ---------------- ---------------------------------------------------
VERSION 7.1.1 File version
DECSEP . Decimal separator used in this file

# ================================================== ============================
# Units
# -------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on the *UNITS section

*UNITS

#Code System Abbr Description
#-------- ---------- -------- --------------------------------------------------

# ================================================== ============================
# Add slot definitions here
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on "SLOT" formats
#
#Units Low High Fmt Expression
#------------ ------------- ------------- ---- ---------------------------------
*CLC-00-001
V 0.0 5.00 .1 "{EXT.AD1}"
AFR 10.0 18.0 .2 "({EXT.AD1}*3)+7.35"
*CLC-00-002
factor 0.0 2.0 .1 "{CALC.AFR_LC11}/{GM.AFR}"


*CLC-00-003
V 0.0 5.00 .1 "{EXT.AD2}"
AFR 10.0 18.0 .2 "({EXT.AD2}*3)+7.35"
*CLC-00-004
factor 0.0 2.0 .1 "{CALC.AFR_LC12}/{GM.AFR}"

# ================================================== ============================
*PRN - Parameter Reference Numbers
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on the *PRN section
#
#Code PRN SLOT Units System Description
#------------------------- ---- ------------ ---------------- ---------------- ---------------------------------
CALC.AFR_LC11 F001 CLC-00-001 "V,AFR" Fuel "Wide Band AFR 1 - LC-1"
CALC.BEN_Lc11 F002 CLC-00-002 factor Fuel "Base Efficiency Numerator 1 - LC-1"
CALC.AFR_LC12 F003 CLC-00-003 "V,AFR" Fuel "Wide Band AFR 2 - LC-1"
CALC.BEN_LC12 F004 CLC-00-004 factor Fuel "Base Efficiency Numerator 2 - LC-1"

[BowlingSS]

I also had to update my sae_generic.txt file. I was getting volts for the Ben_LC-1.

Bill

[SSbaby]

Another dummy here... :oops:

I plan to leave my existing O2s in place and put a bung in for the WO2... so I won't be chopping up any wires to existing O2s. The WO2 must be turned on when the ignition is switched on.... so how have people hooked up their LC-1s to a (switched) 12V source? :?

[GMPX]

You 'should' be able to grab 12V from the Std O2 heaters, I don't know if that works but I can't see why it would not.

Because I use the PLX with the display that sits in the car I grabbed 12V from an unused fuse, I don't even remember what fuse it was, but it was something only fitted to the upper level vehicles (Calais etc).

Cheers,
Ross

[SSbaby]

You 'should' be able to grab 12V from the Std O2 heaters, I don't know if that works but I can't see why it would not.

Because I use the PLX with the display that sits in the car I grabbed 12V from an unused fuse, I don't even remember what fuse it was, but it was something only fitted to the upper level vehicles (Calais etc).

Cheers,
Ross

Thanks Ross. :)

Btw, the instructions manual states that the fuse should be 5A (min)...

"Connect the 12V supply wire to a switched 12V source in your car. A switched 12V source goes on as soon as the ignition on the car is on. Make sure the connection is fused with a fuse of minimum 5A."

I'll give it a go... hopefully sometime this w/end... or next. ;)

[joecar]

I plan to leave my existing O2s in place and put a bung in for the WO2... so I won't be chopping up any wires to existing O2s. The WO2 must be turned on when the ignition is switched on.... so how have people hooked up their LC-1s to a (switched) 12V source? :?

This thread has an example:
http://efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1818

You should be able to get a connector (new, or from an old HO2 sensor) and splice the WB02 wires (heater, grounds, NB signal) to it, and then connect to HO2S subharness; so your WBO2 replaces (and simulates) your NB02; and your WB signal goes into the car to connect to your FlashScan; be sure to tie everything down, and route away from exhaust pipes.

Edit: And like Ross said, just connect the controller power/ground to the heater power/ground.

("...don't cut a hole in your headers...")

:)

[amg]

You 'should' be able to grab 12V from the Std O2 heaters, I don't know if that works but I can't see why it would not.

Because I use the PLX with the display that sits in the car I grabbed 12V from an unused fuse, I don't even remember what fuse it was, but it was something only fitted to the upper level vehicles (Calais etc).

Cheers,
Ross

You may try this if it will be of help to you~

I purchased a small 12v Yuasa gel-filled motorcycle battery, a fused cigarette lighter adapter lead and a black/red jumper lead from Radio Shack. I integrated the working end of the cig. lighter adapter wiring to the battery posts, attached one end of the jumper leads to the same posts~ color corrosponding for safety and attached the other end of the jumper leads to the power source input on the LM-1.

This allows the LM-1 to be fully warmed up, calibrated and operating when you first turn the key so you can record start-up data, that would otherwise re-start the LM-1's warm-up routine from the interrupted power it would typically get during engine cranking without the battery's intervention.

The battery then in turn stays fully charged while the LM-1 is in use because it receives it's re-charge current from the vehicle's charging system and one never has to worry about export sensor data being skewed due to low input device voltage. It remains at a steady 13.3-14.0 v at all times. Also, using a redundant battery in the system provides voltage dampening of the input current to the LM-1, which also increases it's overall accuracy.

I've done this with my system and it works very well. :)
HTH's


-Roland

[SSbaby]

This thread has an example:
http://efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1818

You should be able to get a connector (new, or from an old HO2 sensor) and splice the WB02 wires (heater, grounds, NB signal) to it, and then connect to HO2S subharness; so your WBO2 replaces (and simulates) your NB02; and your WB signal goes into the car to connect to your FlashScan; be sure to tie everything down, and route away from exhaust pipes.

("...don't cut a hole in your headers...")

:)

Personally, I'm not if favour of replacing my stock O2s as the WO2s have a reduced lifespan... from my understanding. However, I was considering your approach and thinking of purchasing 2 WO2s and daisy chaining one off the other... as an alternative option.

[SSpdDmon]

Personally, I'm not if favour of replacing my stock O2s as the WO2s have a reduced lifespan... from my understanding. However, I was considering your approach and thinking of purchasing 2 WO2s and daisy chaining one off the other... as an alternative option.

If you want to run it just to tune, then replace the stock sensor with the wideband and tune the car in open loop. Then, put the stock sensor back in when you're done tuning and return to closed loop.

[amg]

I've successfully used the Bosch wideband sensor from a VW motor car application with very good durability when used in a permanant location such as used for narrow-band emulation to the GM PCM.

The number on the sensor is #021-906-262. Given the known durability of VW's (and German vehicle engineering in general) I suspect that this sensor should fair well for accuracy in the long term, especially since VW includes these in their production-oriented standard passenger cars that commonly exceed a hundred thousand miles within their useful life span. The cost for these sensors is just under a $100 and they can be found at any local VW dealer across the country.

FYI if interested. :)


- Roland

[joecar]

Personally, I'm not if favour of replacing my stock O2s as the WO2s have a reduced lifespan... from my understanding. However, I was considering your approach and thinking of purchasing 2 WO2s and daisy chaining one off the other... as an alternative option.

If you want to run it just to tune, then replace the stock sensor with the wideband and tune the car in open loop. Then, put the stock sensor back in when you're done tuning and return to closed loop.

That's right, you leave the WBO2 in for a few weeks while you tune, and then you put your NBO2 back in (...why waste a perfectly good NBO2...).

...Unless you want to auto tune everytime you drive...
:D :D :D
:slugging down a beer:

[TAQuickness]

...Unless you want to auto tune everytime you drive...
:D :D :D
:slugging down a beer:

You mean normal people don't do this??? :lol:

[joecar]

...Unless you want to auto tune everytime you drive...
:D :D :D
:slugging down a beer:

You mean normal people don't do this??? :lol:
:lol: ...I don't know what's normal anymore... :lol:

:D :peeling_tyres:

[SSbaby]

Personally, I'm not if favour of replacing my stock O2s as the WO2s have a reduced lifespan... from my understanding. However, I was considering your approach and thinking of purchasing 2 WO2s and daisy chaining one off the other... as an alternative option.

If you want to run it just to tune, then replace the stock sensor with the wideband and tune the car in open loop. Then, put the stock sensor back in when you're done tuning and return to closed loop.

The only problem being (apart from all the maintenance work) that I want to tune my AFRs for driveability, not just the race track. Tuning is about being thorough... near enough just isn't good enough! :D

In other words, I just can't leave my Flashscan in the cupboard... I need to use it, it's too much fun and any excuse will do! ;)

[joecar]

Too right, mate, daily driver can see whole spectrum of RPM and MAP.
8)

[joecar]

More info...

http://www.efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2208
http://www.efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2211
http://www.efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2217
http://www.efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2272

[ringram]

Day 1 in WB02 install world.
Spent most of the day figuring out what wire went where, trying to find my multimeter and hefting on the old O2 sensor.

Finally got the wiring figured out and the old O2 sensor out.
Ready to go, but wait, Im in London and its getting dark at 4pm no more time! Dam, patch the old sensor back into the connector and with a liberal amount of antiseize back in it goes.

Now I know what goes where Ill start again, hopefully its not to cold and wet to lye on the driveway again.

What do you guys think of putting the LC-1 and wiring in the cabin by coming up around the gear shifter? Seems a little better than tying it underneath the car. It looks like the WBO2 cable will be long enough to get there. This is in a VT2 Holden by the way.

Where is everyone else mounting theirs?

[BowlingSS]

More info...

http://www.efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2208
http://www.efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2211
http://www.efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2217
http://www.efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2272

Those links are no longer any good since the Forum Upgrade.
:banana:
Bill

[joecar]

Here's a collection of useful inks regarding LC-1 hookup:


showthread.php?t=639 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=639)
showthread.php?t=564 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=564)
showthread.php?t=569 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=569)
showthread.php?t=1012 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=1012)
showthread.php?t=1004 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=1004)
showthread.php?t=749 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=749)
showthread.php?t=241 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=241)


Maybe we need a separate subsection for wideband hookup details (wiring, pids, etc).

Cheers
Joe

:banana:

[BowlingSS]

Here's a collection of useful inks regarding LC-1 hookup:

showthread.php?t=564 (http://efiforum.iqd.co.nz/showthread.php?t=564&highlight=LC-1)
showthread.php?t=569 (http://efiforum.iqd.co.nz/showthread.php?t=569&highlight=LC-1)
showthread.php?t=1012 (http://efiforum.iqd.co.nz/showthread.php?t=1012&highlight=LC-1)
showthread.php?t=1004 (http://efiforum.iqd.co.nz/showthread.php?t=1004&highlight=LC-1)
showthread.php?t=569 (http://efiforum.iqd.co.nz/showthread.php?t=569&highlight=LC-1)
showthread.php?t=749 (http://efiforum.iqd.co.nz/showthread.php?t=749&highlight=LC-1)
showthread.php?t=639 (http://efiforum.iqd.co.nz/showthread.php?t=639&highlight=LC-1)
showthread.php?t=241 (http://efiforum.iqd.co.nz/showthread.php?t=241&highlight=wideband)

Maybe we need a separate subsection for wideband hookup details (wiring, pids, etc).

Cheers
Joe

:banana:

Sound :coool: to me....

Bill
:cheers:

[WicketMike]

What are the correct numbers to put in the sae_generic file?

i searched and im finding different results

Is it 0v-5v and 10-18afr or 7.35-18afr? or something different and is the calculation still -5}*3.3418 )+7.35 ?

thanks<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________

[BowlingSS]

What are the correct numbers to put in the sae_generic file?

i searched and im finding different results

Is it 0v-5v and 10-18afr or 7.35-18afr? or something different and is the calculation still -5}*3.3418 )+7.35 ?

thanks<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________

The latest 7.3.1 version has should have the correct values.
That is what I use.
Bill
:cheers:

[WicketMike]

so is that 0-5v and 10-20afr ? and is the math *3)+7.35?

thanks

im asking becuase its not matching what my guage is saying

[BowlingSS]

so is that 0-5v and 10-20afr ? and is the math *3)+7.35?
thanks
im asking becuase its not matching what my guage is saying

Here is what is in my file. *3 +7.35.

# Innovate LC-1 WBO2
# ========================
*CLC-00-932
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}"
AFR 10.0 20.0 .2 "({EXT.AD1}*3)+7.35"
*CLC-00-933
factor 0.0 2.0 .1 "{CALC.AFR_LC11.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"
*CLC-00-934
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD2}"
AFR 10.0 20.0 .2 "({EXT.AD2}*3)+7.35"
*CLC-00-935
factor 0.0 2.0 .1 "{CALC.AFR_LC12.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"

[WicketMike]

thank you!

When you hook up the LC-1 to the flashscan and to a guage.

There is 2 analog outs, so i can get one of those to the gauge and the other to the flashscan, but what about the white and green wires? Those are the grounds for analog out.

Does both white and green grounds need to go to both the gauge and flashscan? or one of each? Do i split the white and green so they both goto each?

thanks

[joecar]

Here's pictures of my LC-1...

The 4 way connector: heater power, heater ground, analog output 1 (NBO2 High), analog ground (NBO2 Low).

The 3 way connector: analog output 2, calibration, system ground.

The 6 way connector: serial in, serial out.

[ace68]

Joe where did you get those connectors? I would love to have some there are a few things I'l like to rewire. I got some from summit but they are huge.

[ringram]

Hey Joe thats very nice, mine is a rats nest, with bits of household lighting cable, block connectors, telephone wire all wrapped around the shifter under the console. I hung my led and calibration button out the side of the console for a reset every week or so.

I think Ill go hunting for some nice connectors like that..

[Chuck L.]

Joe where did you get those connectors? I would love to have some there are a few things I'l like to rewire. I got some from summit but they are huge.

John Spina @ CASPERS Electronics, Mundelien, IL.
http://www.casperselectronics.com

HTH,:cheers:

[joecar]

www.ledfoote.com (http://www.ledfoote.com)
www.waytekwire.com (http://www.waytekwire.com)

I got mine in a complete kit (includes pick for removing the pins when I messed up):
http://www.ledfoote.com/osc/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=76

I also got the cheap crimping tool (required, works infinitely better than pliers):
http://www.ledfoote.com/osc/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=77

If you need the GM 4-pin O2 sensor 'Metripak' plug, they're not shown on the Ledfoote site, and they're not included in the above kit; but if you email him, he does carry these for a good price (show him a diagram, see attached; he uses these in his O2 extension cables).

Waytekwire has the same things, but more in semi-bulk and not in kits (you have to get seals, pins, connector, hold down clip):
http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/218_029.PDF
they're good too, I like their 18 ga GXL automotive thin wall wire:
http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/218_004.PDF
they also have currugated split wire-loom tubing (I use the slit Nylon "black with grey stripe" 300F/149C):
http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/218_102.PDF

If you want to know how to use the Metripack/Weatherpak cheap crimp tool, let me know.
Edit: see post #53 below.

[joecar]

Oh, I didn't realise Caspar's carried the same stuff like Ledfoote.
It's good to have at least 2 sources.

[joecar]

The LC-1 wires are thin, so I put 1-2" of heatshrink tubing on their ends so that the Metripak seals would make a good seal with the wire;

If you put more heatshrink tubing (for strength), then you can't see what colour the wires are, so be sure to label them.

To crimp on the Metripak pins do this (do all wires at each step):
1. Slide seals on wire ends.
2. Strip 1/4" off wire ends (as you pull insulation off, give it a twist to twist wire);
use an electrical stripper tool with the holes, position over wire, rotate a few times and carefully pull away from wire;
LC-1 wires avery thin, so need to use a knife and care not to damage wire.
3. Position seal to be level with end of insulation on stripped wire.
4. Hold crimp tool in right hand so that jaw with 'E' label is upper most;
hold pin in left hand with crimp flaps facing up and pin pointing to right;
position pin into 'E' slot with crimp flaps facing up into 'E' slot, and crimp flaps positioned entirely within width of jaw;
slide wire into crimp flap area, be sure wire barely protrudes past crimp area;
squeeze crimp tool, and then squeeze hard;
remove crimp tool, tug on pin to make sure it's crimped;
you should be able to see the end of the wire barely reach past the end of the crimp area.
5. With fingers, bend seal tabs closer together over seal, centered in seal tab area.
6. Turn crimp tool over so jaw with 'A' label is upper most;
positon 'A' slot over seal tabs (with seal in between) and squeeze;
remove crimp tool and tug again to be sure;
seal should be crimped in middle of seal tab area.

Now, after all wires have pins/seals crimped on their ends (see attached pic):
a. Locate each wire and locate pin labels on connector, align wire/pins with cavities in connector, and push each wire/pin into connector until it clicks.
b. After all wire/pins are in connector, place wire locator clip over wires and push onto end of connector; this keeps the seals in.
c. Test fit by plugging into it's mating connector (if you made it already); don't force it, wiggle it, it will go.
d. When unplugging, grasp connectors, and with thumb or finger lightly push locking tab away from connector while sliding connectors apart;
do not pull on wires when doing this.

[ace68]

Thanks man, both of you. I will be needing those connectors I want to clean up the LC-1 and some other things. I have the pliers but the not the right size connectors.The connectors I have from Summit were just to large to use for the LC-1.

[WicketMike]

has anybody hooked up a LC-1 to a gauge and at the sametime to EFILive?

Im guessing you put one of the analog outs to the gauge and and the other one to the EFILive, but what about the ground, there is only one. Do i split it so it then can goto both?

thanks

[TAQuickness]

I just installed dual lc1's on the bird. Just need to wire in the NB simulations.

[joecar]

Two LC-1's... I like that, it gives info about both banks...:rockon:

Does this mean that your BEN pid will be an average of the two...?

[TAQuickness]

yessir. think i may have a minor exhaust leak. left bank runs a little leaner than right.

[joecar]

More pictures...

[joecar]

In the first picture (passenger compartment footwell), these cables have matching 3-way/6-way connectors tucked up under dash (behind underdash cover); cables on other side of connectors go thru firewall, past PCM into engine bay, past exhaust manifold (fourth picture), down to AC compressor, to K-member (second picture), to 3-way/6-way sockets which LC-1 plugs into (last picture);

LC-1 sits on K-member without touching trans cooler lines (second picture).

WBO2 sensor cable comes out front of LC-1, turns 180 deg, goes back past K-member to bung in front of cat (third picture).

LC-1 (last picture) connects to NBO2 socket (located near bung in front of cat) and to 3-way/6-way sockets.

I had my friend take these pictures at work, and we had no means to get underneath car.

[ace68]

Joe thanks for the links I ordered :<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=main vAlign=top align=right width=30>1 x</TD><TD class=main vAlign=top>Metripack/GT Heavy Duty Removal Tool</TD><TD class=main vAlign=top align=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=main vAlign=top align=right width=30>1 x</TD><TD class=main vAlign=top>Weatherpack Removal Tool</TD><TD class=main vAlign=top align=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=main vAlign=top align=right width=30>1 x</TD><TD class=main vAlign=top>Metripack Connecter Kit/ Free Multimeter</TD><TD class=main vAlign=top align=right></TD></TR><TR><TD class=main vAlign=top align=right width=30>1 x</TD><TD class=main vAlign=top>Sealed Relay Kit</TD><TD class=main vAlign=top align=right></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>I had the larger set allready, do you know what would be great? If there was some list out there that had all of the part numbers and quantaties needed to make a complete harness for us restomodifiers out there. You know the guy that wants to make there own harness to fit there particular need and custom cut to length. that would be sweet is there a way to get those numbers? will it be listed on a parts manual the parts depot at the dealer would have?

[joecar]

Ace,

Can you please post a link to the sealed relays, I'm interested in these also...

I agree, being able to have the part numbers handy is very useful for making our own harnesses or repairing existing ones.

I saw those GM part numbers in the Helm manuals, in the section showing the connector end views;
I heard Helm is having a 50% sale on paper manuals older than 2003;
They also sell the CD/DVD which has all previous years, it's expensive, but is worthwhile if you have multiple GM vehicles;
Helm publishes the "factory" GM manuals, the dealers use these.

See www.helminc.com

Regards
Joe
:cheers:

[BowlingSS]

I heard Helm is having a 50% sale on paper manuals older than 2003;
:cheers:

Web site still shows $135 for the 2001 manuals.

Bill
:cheers:

[ace68]

here you go Joe

http://www.ledfoote.com/osc/index.php?cPath=28&osCsid=e8207bdc18975370ae6ca91535656824

[joecar]

Web site still shows $135 for the 2001 manuals.

Bill
:cheers:
Oh... I was mistaken then... :nixweiss: Happens to me all the time... :muahaha:

[joecar]

here you go Joe

http://www.ledfoote.com/osc/index.php?cPath=28&osCsid=e8207bdc18975370ae6ca91535656824
Thanks. :cheers:

[joecar]

Some people have been asking me for more info....

My connectors are wired as follows:

4-way connector:
A = NBO2 Signal Low = LC-1 green
B = NBO2 Signal High = LC-1 yellow
C = Heater Ground = LC-1 blue
D = Heater Power = LC-1 red

6-way connector:
This has both sets of 3 wires from the LC-1 Serial IN and Serial OUT cables;
the other end that this mates to has the Serial IN and Serial OUT sockets.

If you have FlashScan V2, you should be using the serial comms capability, so you do not need this:
3-way connector:
A = Wideband signal = LC-1 brown --> goes to: FlashScan pin C or E
B = System Ground = LC-1 white --> goes to: FlashScan pin D and pushbutton/LED ground/cathode
C = Calibration = LC-1 black --> goes to: pushbutton/LED positive/anode


Note:
System ground (white) is being used as the analog ground for the wideband signal,
and as the ground for the calibration pushbutton/LED.

If using the LC-1 to simulate the NBO2 sensor, my opinion is that the analog ground (green) and system ground (white) should be isolated from any other grounds (i.e. connected directly as above, and not to a common ground); this avoids ground loops (current flowing between unequal potential grounds).

[NAH]

Has anyone got a picture of the plucg/socket for the OEM O2 sensor connection?

[TAQuickness]

like the one Joecar posted (post 67) or an actual photograph?

[NAH]

The actual plug/socket used on an '04 Monaro CV8. I have been advised that it is a flat 4-pin type as oppose to to a square 4-pin & I am trying to source these in the UK. Chances between slim & none methinks. So I need to order something from either Oz or the US & I want to make sure I get the right part.

[TAQuickness]

Which side are you needing (O2 or PCM)? If it's the O2 side, you could possibly track down someone (internet classifieds, ebay, etc...) with with some old bad O2's, have'm shipped the cut the sensors off. If it's the PCM side, you might check with a dealership (local or otherwise). I've been able to replace all my PCM side connectors, when I break one, via local GM dealers.

[NAH]

Which side are you needing (O2 or PCM)? If it's the O2 side, you could possibly track down someone (internet classifieds, ebay, etc...) with with some old bad O2's, have'm shipped the cut the sensors off. If it's the PCM side, you might check with a dealership (local or otherwise). I've been able to replace all my PCM side connectors, when I break one, via local GM dealers.

It's the O2 side. Someone from the Piston heads forum has posted this link:

http://www.speedscenewiring.com/gmconnectors.htm

The one I want is the counterpart for n&#186; 11 (heated O2 sensor). I have found a site in the US that sells a connector kit but I nned to make sure that the connectors are compatible:

http://www.ledfoote.com/osc/product_info.php?products_id=75&osCsid=fd52a7f7c7b2743b3da0f2e89f2dad27

There seem to be sqaure & round plastic mouldings. As I can't get to the O2 conenction on my car, I can't confirm the exact type, so any help would be appreciated.

The next step will be to email my cousin in OZ & ask him to look at an O2 sensor for a Monaro. Vauxhall in the UK are next to useless.

BTW, for you boys in OZ, looking good for the Ashes :frown:

[SSpdDmon]

I had to update this somewhat, so I deleted my original from page one.

Ok, here's how I did it so everyone can have a common point of knowledge....

I started out wanting to do this by replacing the stock B1S1 narrow band O2 without having the PCM freak out on me. The answer came to me while working on a friend's car. His O2 was acting up and he decided to replace it. So, we took his old O2 and chopped the connector and wires off of the end of the sensor. This provided us with a connection to a 12v source, a heater ground, and the analog 1 signal wire to feed the PCM. You'll need quite a bit of spare wire to get back into the car (about 25ft to make three 6~7 foot extensions). I chose to use a slightly thicker guage wire because I didn't want to loose voltage from one end to the other. If you choose to do it this way AND you have the new 7-wire LC-1, here's what you need to do.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/8/web/392000-392999/392531_120_full.jpg




<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
1. Make sure you're working on a cool car to avoid serious burns. Catalytic converters and transmissions especially hold heat for some time after you turn the car off. Remove your stock NBO2 from your car.

2. Connect three 6~7 foot strands of wire to the spare O2 connector (B, C, and D). If you don't have a spare, you can buy an O2 extension and chop the male end off.

3. On the end of the connector (from step 2), the wires are labeled A, B, C, and D. If yours isn't labeled or its worn down, check the one you removed in step 1. Wire "A" (TAN) needs to be grounded somewhere. Look for a clean connection on a nearby exhaust shield or chassis bolt. Wire "B" (PURPLE) is connected to the analog 1 output. Wire "D" (BROWN) is your switched 12v source. Wire "C" (BLACK) is your heater ground. Make the appropriate connections to the LC-1.

4. Connect the analog 2 output to either the C or E location on the pin-out. **Make sure you take note which one you connect it to so you can log it later on.**

5. Connect the system ground and the analog ground to the D (middle) location on Flashscan's 3-wire pin-out.

6. Plug the spare connector into the female end under the car.

7. **First time use** With the WBO2 still disconnected from the LC-1 interface, turn the ignition to run (do not start motor) for 10~15 seconds and then shut it off.

9. Connect the wide band sensor to the interface. Make sure the sensor is exposed to air (not in exhaust). Turn the ignition to run again, this time for 2 minutes and then turn it off.

10. Install the wide band into the stock location of the exhaust.

11. Connect the DB9/stereo cable to your laptop and the serial out connection from the LC-1. Connect the terminator plug to the serial in connection from the LC-1.

12. Open the LC-1 programming software. Select the analog 2 tab at the top. Select "use air-fuel-ratio." Type 0.5v=10AFR and 4.5v=18AFR in the boxes provided. Click program.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Congrats. You're now ready to log. Choose the Tech Edge PID in the scan tool and go have fun! :cheers:






<o:p></o:p>
**Edit** I wasn't able to figure out what to do to get the simulated NB signal to "switch" before I sold my LC1. When hooked to the car in closed loop, it would show .440~.460mv consistently. Unfortunately, this is not a true simulation of our sensors. I've updated my write-up (02/13/07) to show the last known way that should work for the NBO2 simulation. However, I am unable to test this without my LC1. Until someone figures out how to fix this for sure, THE ABOVE SETUP WILL ONLY WORK IN OPEN LOOP OPERATION. If someone figures out how to fix this, please let me know so that I can update this walk-thru. Also, it is no longer necessary to change the LC1 output and select the Tech Edge .pid. The factory output and default EFI Live formulas should work. Thanks!

[NAH]

I have wired mine similar to your method except I have made a conenction between 'A' on the OEM car loom plug (step 3 above) & the GREEN wire on the LC-1.

I can't get the NB02 to switch either.

[joecar]

I have done the same as NAH... LC-1 green goes to NBO2 pin A.

When I run CL, I get switching just fine, but I had to play with the LC-1's NBO output step/curve.

[voda1]

Clarification


Wire "C" (BROWN) is your switched 12v source. Wire "D" (BROWN) is your heater ground.


Shouldn't it be:
Wire "D" (BROWN) is your switched 12v source.
Wire "C" (BLACK) is your heater ground.
by the drawing shown?

[SSpdDmon]

Clarification


Shouldn't it be:
Wire "D" (BROWN) is your switched 12v source.
Wire "C" (BLACK) is your heater ground.
by the drawing shown?




Good eyes. Fixed. Thanks. :)

[voda1]

I misread this line:
5. Connect the system ground and the analog ground to the D location on the pin-out.
Changing it to:
5. Connect the system ground and the analog ground to the D location on the FlashScan pin-out.
would make it clearer.

Ground Confusion

From the EFI LC-1 Installation pdf. Page 4
#2 Signal Ground:
Connect a wire from the LC-1 Green(analog grd) and White(system grd) wire's ground connection to the D location of the EFILive External connector. D is in the middle of the 3-wire connector.

On page 5
Picture 7
*The black wire is connected to the same Signal ground location as the LC-1(green-analog, white-system wire) and is connected to the FlashScan Pin D "Common Analog Ground".

*Does that not imply a ground lug with blk, grn, wht wires attached?





From the Innovate documention under Mounting and Wiring the LC-1
5. The BLUE(heater grd) and WHITE(system grd) wires should all be grounded to the same ground source and although these grounds are of the same source, the BLUE wire should be wired separate from the WHITE wire to avoid analog ground noise.

**6. Note: The LC-1's heater ground(BLUE) and system ground(WHITE) wires should be grounded at the analog input's ground

**Does that mean the ground lug now effectivly has all 3 grounds attached?

Also the above drawing shows a connection within the stock ox sensor hi to low and then to [ground and term A].

It looks like there is a difference between using the factory ox harness for power with NB2 capable or not using factory harness. I want to use the factory harness and NB2.
Is/should there a ground lug with white wire(sys) and wire from the FlashScan D term?
Should the blue wire(htr) goto ox sensor harness C term or ground lug?
Should the green wire(analog) goto ox sensor harness A term?

[SSpdDmon]

I can update that other line too. I assumed by saying 'pinout' people would understand that I was talking about Flashscan's 3-wire connector.

As for the grounds, ONLY THE SYSTEM AND ANALOG GROUNDS SHOULD BE CONNECTED TO FLASHSCAN. I believe it clearly states in Innovate's instructions that you shouldn't connect the heater ground to the same place as the others. I'll have to double check. The heater ground should be connected to a chasis ground (or via the NBO2 connection if using as a power source).

[voda1]

Quick and dirty sketch attached. Since C term in Ox harness runs back to Splice Pack #122 on bottom of the CarDomain drawing.
The label Grd is just a connection point.
Please explain this line from EFI docs -
On page 5
Picture 7
The black wire(not from the LC1) is connected to the same Signal ground location as the LC-1(green-analog, white-system wire) and is connected to the FlashScan Pin D "Common Analog Ground".
What is the 'same Signal ground location'?

[joecar]

Don't connect LC1-black to any ground; this is not a ground wire (see note 2 below).

It's best to not connect LC1-white or LC1-green to common ground...
connect either of them to the "return" of the measuring device (FlashScan-D or NBO2-A).

Don't connect FlashScan-D to common ground; connect it to LC1-white or LC1-green.

If you want NBO2 simulation, connect either LC1-yellow or LC1-brown to NBO2-B.

Don't connect NBO2-A to ground, even if it appears to already be "grounded".

Summary:

LC1-red -> NBO2-D
LC1-blu -> NBO2-C
LC1-yel -> NBO2-B
LC1-grn -> NBO2-A

LC1-brn -> FS-C or FC-E
LC1-wht -> FS-D and pushbutton/LED cathode(-)
LC1-blk -> pushbutton/LED anode(+)

Notes:

1. Note that LC1-white goes to 2 places.

2. Note that LC1-black drives the LED, and initiates calibration when shorted to ground (LC1-white).

3. Note that LC1-green and LC1-white can be interchanged and/or connected together,
and it's best to avoid connecting either of them to common ground.

4. If NBO2 heater power/ground is turned on/off by PCM, then you have to power the LC-1 by means other than NBO pins C, D... the reason for this is that the later PCM's manage NBO2 heater power via PWM.


(http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=20320&postcount=66)

[joecar]

showthread.php?p=48924#post48924 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?p=48924#post48924)

[stigmundfreud]

That's right, you leave the WBO2 in for a few weeks while you tune, and then you put your NBO2 back in (...why waste a perfectly good NBO2...).

...Unless you want to auto tune everytime you drive...
:D :D :D
:slugging down a beer:

pops head up from the trenches! That was my plan!

[joecar]

My LC-1 has been in ever since I got it, and my NBO2 is on my bench for purpose of gazing at... :D

[stigmundfreud]

:D For me it would be a convenience thing, as in once the widebands are in I cannot be arsed getting under the car to swap over! I think I'm going down the 2 widebands route - gives a backup and better picture if both working

[stigmundfreud]

guys

I've gotten my old nb off and was about to start following Joes superb instructions but I hit my first stumbling block!

My nb connector is totally different from the ones you've described. Instead of a 4 way square it is a flat four way connector - imagine a large connector from inside a pc connecting to say an old IDE hard drive.

What is the pin outs on these?

There original colours are 2 browns next to each other then a purple then a sort of light brown - I just want to double and tipple check before I start hacking away.

Also the reason my nb failed? The crimps used by the tuners to extend the wire came loose - effing annoying!

[SSpdDmon]

guys

I've gotten my old nb off and was about to start following Joes superb instructions but I hit my first stumbling block!

My nb connector is totally different from the ones you've described. Instead of a 4 way square it is a flat four way connector - imagine a large connector from inside a pc connecting to say an old IDE hard drive.

What is the pin outs on these?

There original colours are 2 browns next to each other then a purple then a sort of light brown - I just want to double and tipple check before I start hacking away.

Also the reason my nb failed? The crimps used by the tuners to extend the wire came loose - effing annoying!

Check to make sure the connector is labeled. It should tell you which wire is A, B, C, and D.
http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=41669&postcount=72

[stigmundfreud]

Check to make sure the connector is labeled. It should tell you which wire is A, B, C, and D.
http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=41669&postcount=72


you are a star, yes embossed on the underside is abcd in reverse order!

Cheers!!!

[1964Vette]

I had to update this somewhat, so I deleted my original from page one.

Ok, here's how I did it so everyone can have a common point of knowledge....



<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
**Edit** I wasn't able to figure out what to do to get the simulated NB signal to "switch" before I sold my LC1. When hooked to the car in closed loop, it would show .440~.460mv consistently. Unfortunately, this is not a true simulation of our sensors. I've updated my write-up (02/13/07) to show the last known way that should work for the NBO2 simulation. However, I am unable to test this without my LC1. Until someone figures out how to fix this for sure, THE ABOVE SETUP WILL ONLY WORK IN OPEN LOOP OPERATION. If someone figures out how to fix this, please let me know so that I can update this walk-thru. Also, it is no longer necessary to change the LC1 output and select the Tech Edge .pid. The factory output and default EFI Live formulas should work. Thanks!


My understanding is that the Innovate LC-1 (#1) output works just as the original nbo2. Switching occurs in response to fueling where 1.1v = a 14 AFR. If the voltage is above 1.1v its considered rich. If its below 1.1v its lean. The PCM does not know how lean or how rich it just changes the fueling to drive it the opposite direction until a switch occurs then drives it back the other way. Over a period of time the magnatude of the fuel changes are reduced so that the switching now occurs very close above and below 1.1v. The switching times should be very quick at this point and this would now indicate a fairly good stoich.

Any other clarification on this issue? If not I guess I should talk to someone at Innovate.

Thanks
LEC

[stigmundfreud]

1.1 = 14 afr?!? Surely its 0.45 or there abouts for 14.7. Above 0.45 the car is rich, below it is lean but by how much no one knows (unless the wb is also hooked up)?

[joecar]

This is how the LC-1 simulates the NBO2:

it is programmed something like this (approximate values):

50 mV == AFR 15.1
1000 mV == AFR 14.3

This is a fairly steep downstep...

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/489/lc1nboutputtt6.png

(arrgghhh... I forgot to click the "use air-fuel-ratio" hole, but you still get the picture).

approximately midway between those is 400~500 mV which corresponds to AFR 14.7 (stoichiometric air:fuel ratio for gasoline)...

the PCM commands some fuel, and say it's turns out to be a little lean (PCM doesn't know this just yet), the O2 sensor then reports say 200 mV (leaner than 14.7), the PCM sees this and now commands a little richer, then O2 sensor reports say 700 mV (richer than 14.7) the PCM see this and now commands a little leaner, and the cycle repeats several times per second.

The steep downstep transfer function allows this voltage switching to occur between the PCM and NBO2 (the PCM drives it, the NBO2 responds to it).

:)

[SSpdDmon]

This is how the LC-1 simulates the NBO2:

it is programmed something like this (approximate values):

50 mV == AFR 15.1
1000 mV == AFR 14.3

This is a fairly steep downstep...

Approximately midway between those is 400~500 mV which corresponds to AFR 14.7 (stoichiometric air:fuel ratio for gasoline)...

the PCM commands some fuel, and say it's turns out to be a little lean (PCM doesn't know this just yet), the O2 sensor then reports say 200 mV (leaner than 14.7), the PCM sees this and now commands a little richer, then O2 sensor reports say 700 mV (richer than 14.7) the PCM see this and now commands a little leaner, and the cycle repeats several times per second.

The steep downstep transfer function allows this voltage switching to occur between the PCM and NBO2 (the PCM drives it, the NBO2 allows it).
It's funny....if you assume (like many people do) that 900mV is ~13:1, the equation for a NB simulation really should look like this:

50mV=16.3:1
1050mV=12.3:1

Then again, that's assuming the NBO2's output is linear. Wonder how that equation would actually work in practice???

[joecar]

Jeff, if you spread it out too much (make it less steep), then it behaves more like a wideband than a narrowband... it won't switch, it will report the actual AFR... :D

Remember, a narrowband is accurate at 14.7, and all else is just "rich/lean relative to 14.7".

[SSpdDmon]

Jeff, if you spread it out too much (make it less steep), then it behaves more like a wideband than a narrowband... it won't switch, it will report the actual AFR... :D

Remember, a narrowband is accurate at 14.7, and all else is just "rich/lean relative to 14.7".
Makes sense...

Didn't have my coffee this morning. :doh:

[stigmundfreud]

I have the 6 wire LC-1 (so no green analog ground).

When stripping back the rubber protective cable to seperate out I discovered a bare metalic wire.

Now this wire was inside the rubber and not exposed at all. The confusing thing is the LC-1 manual refers to a metalic wire for sytem ground if using a 6 wire LC-1. There is no mention of a white cable for the six wire.

Any ideas?

[stigmundfreud]

Have just bench tested my 6 wire LC-1

the metalic wre that was hidden away inside the rubber armour is actually a system ground too. Not sure if thats any use to anyone so far but for people in the future that may get the 6 wire you actually do have the green wire too - only it has no sheilding and is hidden away inside the armour.

For those that have mounted under the car where did you go for and what route did you take to get the wiring into the car?

[joecar]

My wideband sensor failed last night (error 8, extended idling in stopped freeway traffic)...

Anyone know where they can be obtained for the best price (including shipping)...?

What is it's part #...?

[SSpdDmon]

I've heard of them (5-wire Bosch LSU4.2 or whatever they are) being sold for $55~$60. Don't remember where though.

[stigmundfreud]

My wideband sensor failed last night (error 8, extended idling in stopped freeway traffic)...

Anyone know where they can be obtained for the best price (including shipping)...?

What is it's part #...?

joe your best bet is to get the VW equivilant sensor from a vw specialist = $$$ saved. 021-906-262-B = part number but as said the sensors are cheap the controllers a bastard

BTW Managed to get it all in, I used the gromit above the transmission tunnel and dropped the 02 down the hole. How long those screw clips will last one can only guess but so far its all hooked up - much happer with teh lc-1 being in the car too!

[joecar]

Ok, thanks. :cheers:

[stigmundfreud]

no! Thank you! I start logging tomorrow - lets just hope the wires all stick together ;)

As for that partnumber its in the LC-1 document so if its wrong dont sue me ;)

[stigmundfreud]

here's a question

I just got a replacement sensor after the old one died. I re-read the guides and in the shipped documentation for LC-1 install it mentioned changing the shipped settings to match the efilive calculations.

The EFI Live guide mentioned programming the wideband to use the following outputs:

a. 0.88333 Volts at AFR: 10.00
b. 4.21667 Volts at AFR: 20.00

Those are different to teh shipped default A2 outputs, should I change the LC-1 to match these settings or is it ok to use the default shipped settings with the EFI Live PID?

[mr.prick]

0.88333 Volts at AFR: 10.00
4.21667 Volts at AFR: 20.00
these are the values you enter in the LM programmer software
for the analog output you will use (brown or yellow wire)
to work with the default PID.

[stigmundfreud]

thanks,

I hadnt done that before so I've reverted back to my original VE and installed the new sensor - still getting timing issues so possibly got an issue with the controller itself but maybe setting to the above may calm things down.

It is strange as last night it was working fine but this morning (cold as winter is upon us) it went straight to a timing issue

[blazinblue]

Alright im having trouble connecting my LC-1 to my flashscan v2. Alright well since im not using a gauge. And im confused in the manual provided because they only use the V1 in there, so where does the yellow wire go? Do i just connect the brown wire (analog output 2) and the yellow wire (analog output 1) to the flashscan??? if so in which pins??im confused:nixweiss: thanks for the help!

[stigmundfreud]

NO! Dont connect both yello and brown!!!

If you are using A2 output from the LC-1 you connect brown and white or green to the scan tool. Never cross brown and yellow together.

If your LC-1 is a 7 wire you cna use either green or white for the signal ground.

Before you do it all though wire up a little test bench. Get a cheap 12v battery to simulate the circuit so you can test everything with a multimeter. Then install into the car using the same wiring.

Red goes to switched 12v
blue goes to ground

if you are just using it as a wideband and not simulating narrow band you only need to use either brown or yellow. To keep things simple I used brown and then white for signal ground.

Brown plugs into the + connector of the flash scan and white into the -. In your box you will have a load of mini brown/orange coloured connectors that fit into the scanner. If you turn the scanner upside down you will see a guide under neath for analog ports and thermal ports.

Look for the ones that say A1 +/- something like that. Work out which side of the connector is +/- and wire brown or yellow to the + and white or green to the -

In lc programmer go to the channel you are using (yellow = a1, brown = a2) and set hi and low voltage to 1V (1000mV) hit program, wait 10 seconds then turn off the car. Wait 30 seconds and turn on, once your LED flashes a solid red you should measure the voltage at the scan tool, it should measure 1v constant. With the multi meter you can put the probes into the screw lugs on the orange connector. It should be reading 1.00 or 0.99

Next using lc-1 programmer set the hi/lo voltage to 4v (4000mV) and again wait 10 seconds, turn off, wait 30 seconds turn on and wait for solid light. At this point measure the voltage hitting - 4.00 or 3.99 or close.

You want to be measuring at both the terminal and what the scan tool is registering (look on the data tab)

If it looks out calibrate you may want to look at calibrating the port on the scan tool but make sure you are aware of the concequence of that. I had to do that but recalibrated whilst my usb was plugged into the scan tool and the LC-1 which meant that if I scanned without being plugged into both the scan tool would over read (ie the signal raised due to not having both usb port plugged in. There must be a differential that the scan tool picked up on)

something to bear in mind. It was simple to diagnose. Sat stationary and just looking at the LC-1 AFR reading on scan tool would read say 15.7. Plug in the LC-1 to logworks and it would read 14.7 in both, unplug the lc-1 usb and the scan tool would raise again so I now do all my logging with both plugged in as a result!

[blazinblue]

Alrigt thanks, yes im just using it for a wideband. I have the 6 wire LC-1. Right now i have the signal ground(white) and the heater ground(blue) connected to a ground source. I did the free air calibration and seemed to get it right with the led flashing ect. Ok so now i should take off the white where im grounding it from and connect it and the brown to the scan tool? and just leave the yellow taped off right?

[stigmundfreud]

yep that would do it

do take time to check the voltage outputs though as it will save you the headache I had. Checked it off car but then on car there was a drop off due to connectors used.

Also make sure its on a switched 12v, dont drive with out power to the wb or you'll kill it

do run log works and efilive at the same time to corrolate the afr readings to make sure efi tracks true to logworks. I set the update from instant to 1/12 second within logworks as it gave a much more stable response. I believe the new efi firmware does 10x over sampling to also stop jitters but I never got around to installing it.

[blazinblue]

Alright, i believe i connected everything right. When i select the pids, it reads the Base Efficiency Numerator 1 LC-1 pid, but the Wide Band AFR LC-1 has a red X trough the Pid. And when i went logging, every cell count was displaying perfect on the BEN map. But when i click the X with the line over it, every cell has a value of 0.00 .. Whats wrong in here?? I programmed the LC-1 how the tutorial and you said.. i believe its not reading the wideband, right? thanks for the help

[mr.prick]

also select AD1 or AD2 voltage PID.
whichever one you have the LC1 connected to.

[blazinblue]

yea i selected them, alright now i want to know if im doing the logging right before i take it for a long log. Heres a screenshot of just a 10 min run, am i on the right track? I want to make sure before i do a long log and only to find out it wasn't working properly.. what do you guys think?

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/1194/logla3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

and heres the main VE, before and after

http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/2125/beforeafteruv0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[stigmundfreud]

in your ten minute run did you never go above 2000rpm?!? also for them all to be sat at 0.50 it looks like you have something wrong somewhere.

Cant you post a copy of your log file up for people to look at?

[mr.prick]

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/1194/logla3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

these do not look like base efficiency numbers,
unless you are running SUPER rich.

[blazinblue]

Yea i went to like 5800RPM.. it looks like that i think because i cleared some cells. Ill try and post my log file up for you guys to see. Also my AFR is at 14.68

edit: heres the log file, what do you guys think?

[stigmundfreud]

no those are not right, you havent got any reading from the LC-1 at all. Your lc1-afr is a steady 7 and your voltage is a steady 0

this means you are not getting any logged data. All your cell values are 0.5 either high, low or average.

Connect your laptop to Logworks at the same time as the scan tool. Look at logworks to monitor the AFR fom the serial port and use scan tool to look at the AFR. You should see the LC-1 registering something around expected idle afr's

I'd suspect, just suspect, you ahve wired your terminal wrong to the scan tool. As in - is going to the + port and visa versa.

Before altering the wiring though use a multimeter and check the voltage at the scantool plug in terminal and ensure you are getting voltages there.

[blazinblue]

ok ill be sure to connect it to logworks. Yes the brown wire is at the + side of the scan tool and the white at the - .. Am i'm algo getting voltage at the scan tool in the orange connector.

[mr.prick]

ok ill be sure to connect it to logworks. Yes the brown wire is at the + side of the scan tool and the white at the - .. Am i'm algo getting voltage at the scan tool in the orange connector.

the brown wire is the #2 analog out.
make sure in the lm programmer you have the #2 out properly programmed.

[stigmundfreud]

even if its not correctly programmed you would expect >0.0v it sounds like something isnt wired up right. It is sometimes easy to plug the connector just one slot over so + is in - and - is in a2 +

connecting to logworks will tell you what your lc-1 is seeing. Do you get a constant red LED?

[blazinblue]

Yea i used to get a constant led. well i gave up on installing it.. now all of a sudden i get the led error code, the 5 flash led error, which means that i have to replace the cable or the sensor.:Eyecrazy: And i never turned on the truck when the sensor wasn't on. but i guess its damaged.

[Thumper]

Why does the NB output have to be wired into the PCM? Is there a reason that I cant just hook up the WB to my Flashscan and do what I need?
Can I not just shove my WB in another bung and leave the 2 NB's inplace

I know it's probably a noobie question, sorry

[stigmundfreud]

Yes you can use another bung, you can also use the WB to simulate NB via one of its outputs so it is up to you. Some people use the PCM connector as it is convenient to get earth and power - others go direct to chassis and battery though I believe going direct to battery/chassis can cause signal problems (others can be clearer on that)

[joecar]

If your PCM switches the NBO2 heaters on/off (check your wiring diagram) then you can't power from the NBO2 connector.

[Thumper]

Seems like alot of PT to wire the simulated NB in then if its not necessary.
Why go through all the hassle?

[joecar]

To do AutoVE you don't need NB sim.

If you then later want to run CL and still monitor the WB AFR,
then you can run NB sim and WB without having to drill another bung hole.

[Thumper]

I see, so its just a matter of not wanting extra bungs in the exhaust.
Ill be using a LM-1, so im happy with putting an extra bung in. Makes it all easier to install and remove.
Thanks for the replies
Cheers!

[W_D_R]

Recently installed my lc-1 and while running log works and the scan tool my afr reads 14.7ish on log works and 11.7ish through the scan tool. I have done some searching and read through this post. Where do i look?

[joecar]

Are you using the correct AFR pid for the LC-1...?

Post screenshots of your PIDs tab and Data tab.

[mr.prick]

Recently installed my lc-1 and while running log works and the scan tool my afr reads 14.7ish on log works and 11.7ish through the scan tool. I have done some searching and read through this post. Where do i look?

Analog or serial?
The analog outs will need to be programmed.

[W_D_R]

Analog.


http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2585/pidtab.png
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2954/datatab.png


Wes

[mr.prick]

Did you read this?
LC-1 Installation (http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/LC-1%20Installation%20Tutorial.pdf)

Page 4 from the LC-1 maual:
The default analog outputs are as follows:
Analog output one is 1.1V = 14 AFR and .1V = 15 AFR.
This is a simulated narrowband signal.
Analog output two is setup as 0V = 7.35 AFR and 5V = 22.39 AFR.

If you don't have a USB to Serial converter to program the analog outs you can use analog #2,
it is close to the pre-defined PIDs for the LC-1. "({EXT.ADX}*3)+7.35"

[joecar]

What LC-1 color wires do you have going to your FlashScan...?

What did you do with the LC-1 black wire...?

Start the LMProgrammer software and look at how the two LC-1 channels are programmed... post screenshots of those.

[W_D_R]

1. brown and white with blue. connected to A1
2. it is grounded to main bar under dash.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7102/tab1.png
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1918/tab2.png
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4457/afrdiff.png

[joecar]

LC-1 black wire is not a ground wire...
if you short this to ground you go into free air cal mode ...
if you don't release this from ground the LC-1 stays in free air cal mode...
if you have the black wire connected to ground then this may be the problem.

[mr.prick]

Brown is analog out #2 positive do not connect to ground.

6 wire LC-1
Black > Calibration wire (to momentary push-button switch between ground )
RED > switched 12v positive
BLUE > ground
YELLOW > Analog out 1 (to V1/V2 AD+)
BROWN > Analog out 2 (to V1/V2 AD+)
WHITE > System Ground (to chassis ground)
7 wire LC-1
GREEN > Analog Ground (to V1/V2 AD-)
connect both GREEN and WHITE wires to the same V1/V2 AD-

[W_D_R]

My lc-1 has 6 wires. none of which are green.

Yellow- goes to nothing
brown- v2 ad+
white- ground
black- to momentery push button then to ground- to led.
red- 12v switched power- to led
blue- ground

White w/ blue dots- v2 (ad-) to ground. I added this as a ground.

[joecar]

My lc-1 has 6 wires. none of which are green.

Yellow- goes to nothing
brown- v2 ad+
white- ground
black- to momentery push button then to ground- to led.
red- 12v switched power- to led
blue- ground

White w/ blue dots- v2 (ad-) to ground. I added this as a ground.
I don't remember, but it seems to me that the led should go between the black wire and ground (white) (in parallel with the pushbutton switch).

as you have it wired, does your led light up...?

if it does, then it's holding the black wire at ~0.7-1.2V below battery voltage (I think the LC-1 doesn't like this).

[W_D_R]

Your correct, its not to the red. Here is a diagram of how I'm wired up. I have all my grounds spliced together then ran to a single point. Should I change this or could efi live not br programmed correctly. I'm confused on how LM would read what I believe to be correct and efi read different.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3034/hookup.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/i/hookup.jpg/)


Thank you Joecar and Mr. Prick for all your help!

[mr.prick]

The white wire should go to chassis ground.
Does this White w/ blue dots-
go between the LC-1 and V1/V2
or is it V1/V2- to chassis?


IMO
tape off the black wire and if you have V2 use serial connection to the LC-1.

[W_D_R]

I ran the white with blue dots is an extension of the white wire.

[mr.prick]

Here is how my LC-1 is wired:
power and ground (red + blue) come from the PCM
analog#1+ (yellow) to V2 AD1+
analog#1- (green) to V2 AD1-
system ground (white) to chassis ground.

[TFZ_Z06]

I don't remember, but it seems to me that the led should go between the black wire and ground (white) (in parallel with the pushbutton switch).
.

correct.

[Garry]

Sorry to hijack this thread - does anybody know which modelyears the WBO2 used on the LC1 was used on VR6 Golfs ? I can't use the US part# to get a replacement, as nobody in Germany seems to be able to find it anywhere ...

[mr.prick]

IIRC any newer turbo VW
021-906-262-B (VW pn#)

[Garry]

Tnx! Wonder how much they will charge here - place in Charlotte/NC sells them for $58 on ebay ... probably be twice that here ...

[mr.prick]

You got to figure the cost of shipping vs. buying locally,
sometimes it's cheaper to buy local.
Of course you have the Euro to dollar conversion so maybe shipping
would be cheaper. :doh2:
Is there no VW part dealers in Germany? :hihi:

This pn# 17014 also works.

[mr.prick]

I just bought one off ebay for $39.68 shipped. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BOSCH-02-SENSOR-PART-17014-SEE-APPLICATION-GUIDE_W0QQitemZ330336967590QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMoto rs_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4ce99e1ba6&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12|39%3A1|72%3A1205|240%3A1318)

[Garry]

FYI ... just did a check on a couple online sites that carry "original" VW parts ...

one place has it for 188€ (!), another 158€ ... I don't expect the VW shop to be any cheaper ... got one place that has it for 69€ ...

Might contact that seller you referred ... does it look like it's genuine Bosch?

[mr.prick]

I've bought the 17014 Bosch sensor from them before.
188€ ($133) is a rip off.
69€ ($49) isnt much more than I paid, if it's local I'd go that route.
Unless ebay will ship to Germany for free. :hihi:

[Garry]

You got the conversion rate wrong ... 188€ is more like $265 ... €69 is ~$100 plus another 8€/11$ shipping ... I'm OK with a couple € extra for a local place, that way it's easier to kick someone's @ss if they deliver crap ...

[mr.prick]

HAHA I went the wrong way, (€*.71 = $ wrong) (€*1.41 = $ right)
still a rip off. :hihi:

If ebay will ship, go for it.
I bought from them before.

[Garry]

Like I thought/expected ... Just checked with both a local VW dealer, and a wholesale place I sometimes get parts from ... VW has it for €156, the other place I'd get it around €120 ... waiting for some feedback from the EBay seller on shipping to Germany or APO, if not I'll go with the other place for €88 ...

Edit: Nice ... NOT! Checked the online site today, price went from the 69€ to 77€ ... The cheap place on eaby doesn't seem to want to ship to Germany, but I found another place that ships for a decent price, still save something like 20€ compared to the local place ... (albeit, longer shipping...) Even after Customs ...

[mr.prick]

I just bought one off ebay for $39.68 shipped. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BOSCH-02-SENSOR-PART-17014-SEE-APPLICATION-GUIDE_W0QQitemZ330336967590QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMoto rs_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4ce99e1ba6&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12|39%3A1|72%3A1205|240%3A1318)

I just got it and they still have a few left,
this is a really good price. :secret:

[Garry]

Same guy/place ...



WE ARE NO LONGER SHIPPING INTERNATIONAL. PLEASE DONT ASK FOR A QUOTE. WE APPOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVIENIENCE.

They probably got ripped off one too many times by Paypal and their buyer protection, with no way of getting to the buyer in any sensible legal way ...

[mr.prick]

That sucks the price is so high in EU,
I don't need one but for the price I had to buy one.
Hard to believe they still have any left.

[smslyguy]

The PCM sees the NB output (0.000 to 1.000mV).
EFILive sees the WB output (0.0 to 5.0V) via the FlashScan AD1 or AD2 input.
The LC-1 software lets you setup the LC-1 output voltage ranges (0.000 to 1.000mV for NB, 0.0 to 5.0V for WB); see the LC-1 manual.

what are the output voltages supposed to be set at? I thought they were pre-program from the factory for the lc1?

[stigmundfreud]

what are the output voltages supposed to be set at? I thought they were pre-program from the factory for the lc1?

read through the lc-1 guide in the AutoVE tutorial supplied with the software, it shows the correct settings in there for you :)

[joecar]

You use the LM Programmer software (download from the Innovate website).

[smslyguy]

read through the lc-1 guide in the AutoVE tutorial supplied with the software, it shows the correct settings in there for you :)

i have read through, and just read it again and i can't seems to find the setting for this?

[mr.prick]

read through the lc-1 guide in the AutoVE tutorial supplied with the software, it shows the correct settings in there for you :)

The LC-1 Tutorial tells you to program the output for WBO2 integration to Flashscan not NBO2 simulation and it is not even necessary if you are using
output #2 (brown) default setting.

[stigmundfreud]

The LC-1 Tutorial tells you to program the output for WBO2 integration to Flashscan not NBO2 simulation and it is not even necessary if you are using
output #2 (brown) default setting.

sorry mr prick its been quite a while since I did this so it was from memory i said it was in the autove manual that gave the information

smslyguy its certainly in the docs supplied with the efi software, for setting up WB as mr prick states. Its such a long time back now I had forgotten I was using serial logging for WB and analogue out for NB, for NB its set 0 to 1 or 0 to 1000mv again memory so am sure joe or mr prick can clarify

off topic but mr prick have you any idea how hard it is to write your name without laughing

[mr.prick]

My mother doesn't laugh at my name. :redface:

[W_D_R]

Just recieved my new lc-1 from innovate. Old one quit, sent it to them for repair and got a new one in the mail at no charge. Here are some pics before a put it in the truck seem correct to yall?

I soldered the green blue white and one side of the monetary switch together. ground.

I need to add another wire from my ground above to the V2.

I soldered the other side of the led and momentary switch to the small black wire.

red will go to power.

yellow to V2.

brown to nothing.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6468/img0567co.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/69/img0565xo.jpg

Wes

[joecar]

Does it work when you power it up...?

[W_D_R]

I have not powered it up.

[joecar]

I do a bench test (connect to power) before installing, make sure LED indicates correct operation... blow on sensor (or run propane torch on it) and note change in reported AFR.

[W_D_R]

Installed lc1 today. Went through the new install procedures, everything seems to work ok except I still have my original problem.

log works reads ~14.6
efi live reads ~20.5



Wes

[mr.prick]

Are you using serial or analog connection?
Have you selected the proper PIDs?

[W_D_R]

I am using the autove pid selection.

I believe its analog. From the 2.5mm out jack on the lc1 I have a 2.5mm to something adapter, then a something adapter to usb. and I have the yellow wire to A1+ and ground to A1-

[mr.prick]

Did you program the analog output and select the fuel type in Logworks?
The yellow wire is not pre-programmed to match the analog PID for the LC-1,
the brown wire is.

[W_D_R]

I did program for log works.
I will go switch the yellow for brown and report back in a moment.

[W_D_R]

Swapped yellow for brown, still did not read the same but it was closer. Would a taq cable benefit me?

[mr.prick]

Serial to V2 is superior to analog.
It shouldn't be that far off tho.

[ScarabEpic22]

I went to an exhaust shop today to have the bung welded in, well great to know the 4.2L I6 exhaust is tucked so close to the engine and frame theres no way to weld the dang bung in. So instead Ill be pulling the front nbo2 and wiring my LC1 to mimick it, hope I dont need to work with LogWorks3, no laptop with a serial port in my area I can borrow. Might have to get a serial to usb converter.

[W_D_R]

Installed lc1 today. Went through the new install procedures, everything seems to work ok except I still have my original problem.

log works reads ~14.6
efi live reads ~20.5



Wes


Updated firmware software and now afr is reading the the same.

[joecar]

How is LC-1 wired to gauge...?
How is LC-1 wired to FlashScan V2...?

What V:AFR range is the gauge expecting...?

Are you using the pid AFR_LC11 or AFR_LC12 in EFILive scantool...?

Can you post screenshots of the LM Programmer software pages for programming V:AFR for Analog 1 and Analog 2.

[monzaaddict]

Is it safe to do the free air calibration via the v2 if I have the latest software updates??

[joecar]

Yes.

Are you at V7.5.6.126, V8.1.2.106 and V2 firmware 2.6.36...?

[Gelf VXR]

I 'think' one of the problems is the O2 inputs to the PCM are kinda 'floating' (I might be wrong), but they are not just a simple GND and signal input. The 'Lo' side of the NBO2 output is not tied directly to GND.
Most of the simulated O2 outputs don't account for that, this can cause problems.

Cheers,
Ross


Very old post I know, I followed the NB simulated method in this thread connecting my LC-1 to the PCM through the stock connector using heater and heater ground connection.

Your above comment, was this ever confirmed as correct or not an issue?




I'm reviewing my installation as read else wear that the LC-1 when set up correctly has a T63 response of 17ms using anologue instant setting, second only to the new AEM x series which uses CAN bus. If you have an older PCM like an E40 like I do better stay with LC-1s I think with added benefit of simulated NB out, LC-2's are very slow👎🏼

Here is a Q&A with Dr.Mike on HPT about response times

Q: I have an E40, pre-CANbus, EFILive FSV2 and two LC-1's, using stream fast mode with 24 pids I can log at 10 frames a second / 10hz. Serial and annologue inputs are polled at the same rate. The LC-1 serial out is 12hz or anologue out is instant, 1/12, 1/6 or 1/3 with offset compensation, serial is better because FSV2 can only poll 10hz?

A: As far as I know, only the HPTuners MPVI can log CANBus data simultaneously with pre-CAN protocols like J1850, etc.

Q: I read that you have said the aem has T63 time ~10ms and the Lc-1 ~20ms, if I am correct, this is response time between the sensor and the aem gauge / LC-1 controller.

A: That is the time it takes for the sensor and controller, together, to get to 63% of the proper reading. For example, if lambda suddenly went from 1.00 to 2.00, the t63 time is how long it takes for the reading to catch up and get to lambda 1.63 . It takes about 2 and a half times as long to get to 90% ( Lambda 1.90 ) etc.

From my own measurements, the 30-0300 is about 10ms and the LC-1 is around 17ms for t63. The independent lab included the solenoid opening time in their measurements, which adds about 10ms to all of the units tested. Which seems to work out about right.

What I, and some others here, have found is that there is much to be gained by logging at higher polling rates. Specifically, with the 30-0300, 100Hz works especially well. I'm pretty sure this is because of what I call "cell velocity". This is the rate at which changes in RPM and manifold pressure cause the current "cell" of the VE map to change. If the current cell changes 30 times a second, then lambda data from 100ms ( @10Hz ) ago can be 2 or 3 cells off.


Q: The question I'm trying to answer is what I have already optimum with the E40 PCM, or whether I could consider upgrading to two aem and HPT MPVI to log 24 pids at higher than 10hz, I think I read elsewhere that the MPVI can poll 100 Hz or would I still be limited to 10 Hz of the class 2 network of the PCM? Can you connect two aem to the CANbus?

A: I think the polling rates are independent, per channel. But, obviously, the ECU limit still applies for those channels.

Yes. Multiple AEM gauges can connect to the CAN bus. Specifically, this would be th 30-0333 version of the AEM gauge ( OBDII version ). Depending on your setup, you may need to add in a terminating resistor ( 68ohm ). But, that should be easy

----------

Here is a post by Dr.MIke in 2014, which makes me want to refresh my connection method using individual heavy duty heater and ground cables, I want to utilise the PCM heater and ground for a relay to the heavy duty supply

Currently, the only wideband with a fast enough response time to pick out individual cylinder measurements from a collector is the old LC-1. Nothing else is close, INCLUDING the LC-2. And, I tried just about everything. Setting up an LC-1 to be "clean" enough to do it is a bit of a trick. Innovate controllers are very sensitive to power supply and ground noise; INCLUDING the noise that they make themselves with the heater drive. The older LC-1 with the extra green signal ground wires work best.

Innovate will tell you about grounding to the block or the battery terminal. But, they neglect to mention that you need to run HEAVY wire; 16-gauge minimum. AND that you need to do the same with the +12v power line. The heater current pulses on an LC-1 are about 1.75A . So, that is 1.75mv of ground noise AND 12v rail noise per milliohm of wire.

12g wire is about 1.5millioms per foot. 18g which most people seem to use for this is 6.5milliohms/foot ! So, if you have 10 feet of 18g ground wire, you get over 100mv of noise on the ground rail. The same thing happens on the +12v side. This confuses the LC-1 and adds noise to the output.

To get the response that I did, I cut the LC-1 harness wires at about 6" from the controller. I ran short 12g power/ground lines and ran a 3.3ohm resistor inline with the white ground wire and a 10uf cap between the 12v and the ground side of the resistor. I connected the scope across the yellow and green wires. Connecting between the yellow and the controller side of the resistor on the white wire worked almost as well.

The system was easily able to resolve per-cylinder AFR values at idle. This is what I was looking for to adjust the 12 idle screws. At about 2000rpm you could see differences but not full values. at 3000rpm is where it lost the ability to discern differences. Also, by 3000rpm, the mains were starting to come on.


Did anyone else come across this advise? need more to go on to order these resisters and capacitors

[Gelf VXR]

Is Dr.Mike on this forum, under another name?

[joecar]

On some PCM's (e.g. 1999-2002 F-car, Y-car) the NBO2 "Lo" is not grounded outside the PCM (i.e. sort of floating)... in this case you want to connect it.


On other PCM's (e.g. various trucks) the NBO2 "Lo" is grounded outside the PCM, and you don't need to connect it (but you can).

[joecar]

The older LC-1 with the extra green signal ground wires work best.

I had figured this out... but I had not run across the rest of Dr.Mike's advise... I'm going to try the resistor/capacitor.

[Gelf VXR]

I had figured this out... but I had not run across the rest of Dr.Mike's advise... I'm going to try the resistor/capacitor.


If you can share the details of the source for resister and capacitor you use id be grateful, i had a look online but not sure exactly what to order?

[joecar]

If you can share the details of the source for resister and capacitor you use id be grateful, i had a look online but not sure exactly what to order?I would probably try a 3.3ohm 1/4W carbon film resistor and a 10uF multilayer ceramic capacitor.

[joecar]

For example:
cap (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TDK/FK26X7R1E106K/?qs=zLBlM7QTTNq%252bT4bvblvuYQ%3D%3D&gclid=Cj0KEQjwvtS6BRC8pcKn8OXIg_wBEiQAqtpizxf4Ffc5 tLBlo5m73IcB0Mvo82tsEfOWuRnQ3n3TP-AaAqcq8P8HAQ)
res (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Xicon/291-33-RC/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMu61qfTUdNhG%2f1uGo5nxyCVHSf5D5LNvMA% 3d)

[Gelf VXR]

For example:
cap (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TDK/FK26X7R1E106K/?qs=zLBlM7QTTNq%252bT4bvblvuYQ%3D%3D&gclid=Cj0KEQjwvtS6BRC8pcKn8OXIg_wBEiQAqtpizxf4Ffc5 tLBlo5m73IcB0Mvo82tsEfOWuRnQ3n3TP-AaAqcq8P8HAQ)
res (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Xicon/291-33-RC/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMu61qfTUdNhG%2f1uGo5nxyCVHSf5D5LNvMA% 3d)

Great, thats exactly what im looking for :)

[Gelf VXR]

Hi Joe, Ive got to re order the caps as i have lost them, there out of stock til end of the year thou, can i use an electrolytic capacitor instead, whats the difference in this application?

Ive got two LC-1's, one has the green wire, the other is without, so i want to wire them both the same using the cap and resister on the white wire.

[joecar]

You could also use tantalum caps. (http://www.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Tantalum-Capacitors/Tantalum-Capacitors-Solid-Leaded/_/N-75hr3?P=1z0wrkrZ1yx4awy)


You could use electrolytic caps (http://www.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Aluminum-Electrolytic-Capacitors/_/N-75hqt?P=1z0wrkrZ1yx4awy) but they have a bigger size (won't tuck so nicely into wire harness).