Dyno tune starting point for heads & cam LS1

[gto_in_nc]

Hoping for a little guidance:

I have an '04 GTO (think "Monaro" if you are on the other side of the globe) with an LS1 & T56. I have added Pacemaker tri-y's w/ cats, deleted the resonators and added an x-pipe to reduce crackle. I also have a K&N intake w/ cone filter. I have an LC-1 WBO2 and have been logging and tuning for months - plaing as much as anything but have dialed in using AutoVE and have tweaked the MAF calibration, etc.

OK, fast forward to the end of this month...

I have a set of Dart heads with my name on them, ported and heat-coated. 225cc intake, 80cc exhaust, 62cc chamber (flow numbers available if anyone's interested.) Going in with them is a cam, 224/228, 0.600"/0.598", 112* LSA.

The shop that will be doing the work is gonna put in on the dyno for a couple of hours after install. They are an HP Tuners shop but offered to allow me to use FlashScan instead. So, two basic questions!

First, what should my thoughts be in terms of process & procedure? What should I do to VE and main spark before starting AutoVE? (Is that even the logical starting point on a dyno???)

Second, is anyone sufficiently familiar with both HP Tuners & FlashScan to be able to give me a simple "cross-reference of important stuff" so when they say "adjust table XYZ123", I know what the heck they are talking about!

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!

[VetPet]

This would be what I would want to do.

1. Run the car on the dyno as it is to get a baseline of the hp & torque before starting your modifications. You'll want to make sure that your PE table is correct for your current combination for WOT. The dyno is the safest place to do this.
2. Once you've done the heads & cam, you'll want to use autove to tune the car for part throttle & cruise up to around 4,000rpm or so. This is best done on the street with lots of data logging & refinement of your VE table until your BEN's are around + or - 1. Follow the autove tuning directions the same way you already have.
3. When you've completed the autove tuning get your car back to the dyno for the WOT portion of the tuning. This shouldn't take you very long to do and once done you can compare your new dyno numbers to your previous combination to see how much of a change the heads & cam have made. Now you've got a new baseline for any future mods.

I'm not familiar with HP tuners but the program involves working with the same tables that are in EFI live. You'll probably need a little help with initial start up settings and idle because of the size of the cam but because your car is a stick it makes things a lot easier. If there's someone on the forum that has a cam with similar specs to yours they would be your best bet for more info as they can tell you what process they went through and which tables they had to work with for this part of the tuning. You can find a lot of information on LS1 Tech to help you as well but there are lots of folks on this forum that can help you.

Hope this has been of help to you. Keep us informed.

:cheers:

[mr.prick]

IMO let them do what they do, and do some tweaking of your own later.
or why bother having someone else tune the car?
it also might not be a good idea to let them "experiment"
with your car and a tool they are not familiar with.
i have had bad tunes by people using "other" programs and either they had no
idea what they were doing or the tuning tools they used where inferior.
just my opinion but be careful because it sucks to drop good money
on a crappy tune and find that you could have done a better job yourself.
you having efilive already, gives you the ability to check they`re work
but gives you little comfort after spending your money.
IMO

[gto_in_nc]

Thanks, guys! I've been debating what to do here. The shop doing the install and tuning is about 12 hours from home, so doing the install, followed by days of street logging, followed by return to dyno for WOT tuning is not practical, unless I want to use a dyno back home. I am torn about whether to pay another $100 or $150 or whatever for the HPT license and just let them "do their thing". They seem quite confident that the translation between HPT & EFILive will not be significant because we are really only talking about a couple of tables. I will likely waffle on that for a while longer, though.

What I'm thinking - and please help me here - is that I follow the AutoVE prep routine to the letter, except maybe throwing a little more fuel into {B0101} for good measure. (I'm guessing here that the better breathing will lean things out a bit, right?) So DFCO off, MAF disconnected & ignored, {B5913} copied to {B5914}, {B3801} & {B4206} disabled. Then I have them go through the paces on the dyno while I map with FlashScan, touching everything under sub-PE like 100 hits deep. Apply the BENs and then blend VE into the upper reaches. Then have them move to WOT tuning, following their own normal procedure with their own wideband but telling me the corrections they want. If we have time left, they can help address any idle issues (if any) but this gives me a reasonably close starting point for later street tuning.

Or, I can pay a bit more and let them do the tune completely, with me merely watching. It's not really the money, though, and I like the idea of learning on my own car (heck, that's why I bought FlashScan, right?) On the other hand, it is entirely true that things are more likely to go strangely if I get myself involved (even though it was their suggestion.) Hmmm...

In either case, I think a baseline (captured on the dyno & on my laptop) and final result (ditto) is logical. And, in both cases, I'll have a twelve-hour Interstate journey to work on AutoVE on the way home, to work on cruise and partial throttle conditions (I'm thinking two-hour-long scans, followed by BEN-based adjustments.)

Am I missing anythng important? Am I totally wacked on the head? Am I close?

My Goat just want to go faster and I must comply... :)

[dfe1]

I know it may be a difficult concept, but listen to "Mr. Prick"--let the shop doing the installation tune using whatever program they're comfortable with. If you don't, then any problems that might occur will be your fault. After they've finished, all you have to do is dowload their calibration from the PCM using EFILive and make whatever changes you want. The real work that will need to be done will be with idle and drivability. Wide-open throttle is the easy part and if the shop can't get that right, you have bigger problems than deciding which program to use.

[gto_in_nc]

Yeah, I think you (and Mr. Prick) are right. I wouldn't even have thought about it, honestly, except it was their idea after I mentioned havng EFILive and a wideband. I suspect they were partially wanting to save me a few bucks and partially wanting to check out someone else's tuning tool.

I'm sold.

Thanks, All!
Brian

[dfe1]

It would be a good idea to see if you can data log one of the dyno runs with EFILive. That way, you'll know how the engine was running, which will be good reference material later. Another good idea for reference data-- be sure to data log part throttle and idle before you make any changes.

[gto_in_nc]

Do you mean part-throttle & idle post heads&cam but pre-tuning? Or pre-mods? (I've got like a bazillion hours of that!)

I intend to capture a pre-mod dyno pull and then log one final pull after tuning is complete so I've got solid data to go along with it.

A new thought - what PIDs should I log???

[dfe1]

All the pre-mod stuff will be pretty well useless after heads and cam. I think you should log idle and part throttle on the drive home from the dyno. I obviously don't know the capabilities of the shop doing the tuning, but it seems a lot of "professional tuners" can't really do much more than use dyno data to tune wide open throttle. So even though the engine makes great power, it only runs well at wide open throttle. If you have problems on the ride home, it's pretty obvious the tuner didn't do a good job-- unless wide open throttle tuning is all you're paying for.

[Doc]

^wise words.

[gto_in_nc]

OK, that's the plan, then! I'll have them do a dyno pull pre-mods as a baseline (and log it just for grins.) Then I'll log a final pull before we pull it out of the bay. Then I'll AutoVE in 2-hour blocks on the 12-hour drive home.

For what it's worth, I'm having the work done by Precision Motorsports of Florida (PM-FL), near Tampa.

My thanks to all of you!

[mr.prick]

heads and cam are going to change the way your VE table will need to be.
be warned when going into open loop the first time with out some modification to it , you will probably run rich.
i was tuned by "pros" that didn`t touch my VE table so my first time in open loop was quite shocking (10AFR).
make sure they shape your VE table or don`t bother.
it will be very difficult to tune yourself from stock VE table.
i actually had a guy here give me a general VE table to start from otherwise i would have been left in the dark.

[gto_in_nc]

Thanks, Mr. Prick. I was thinking rich but not THAT rich! (I have to tell on myself here - I somehow botched my original LC-1 config and was wondering why my AFR didn't change as I changed VE the first time, according to AutoVE - then the CEL came on and I realized how freakin' pig-rich I'd made it!)

Based on your feedback, and that of dfe1, I have decided to pay them the extra cost for an HPT license and make them "do their thing". Since this is one of their heads & cam packages, I'll trust that they have a valid starting point and procedure, and then I'll verify with an immediate AutoVE cycle. Plus I'll watch the whole dyno time and will make sure I log the final pull. I'm also going to read and write the PCM from ScanTune before I leave the garage bay.

The pricing for the tune was "almost free" with everything else bundled together so even if they only do a half-assed partial-throttle job, I'll be happy.

I've also enquired with them about their tuning process...

Thanks again, guys!
Brian

[mr.prick]

if they are cool with efi live go ahead and let them use it
(if you trust them with it)
i`m just saying let them do it they`re way unless they`re way is to trick the car with fuel trims and sky high PE ratio
(you won`t know that until they`re done)
because if that is how they tune
(i`m not saying it is)
then when you go to make some adjustment you will run into trouble.
ask questions and check references.

[joecar]

Just make sure they do not lock the PCM.

[gto_in_nc]

I've let them know that I might want to just have them do it with HPT and that, in that case, I would like to watch them tune plus I would want to log a final dyno pull with FlashScan and that I'd want to read & write the PCM from FlashScan before pulling it out (to make sure they haven't locked the PCM or otherwise rendered it inaccessible.)

I also asked if they could tell me a little about their methodology.

Thank again!