Newbie Question about Knock Retard

[Powerhouse]

Logged my car earlier and the knock retard showed (9.3) in red. The one next to it showed 0.0. I was just wondering what that meant? Also, the afr commander shows about 14.6 cruising and around 12.5 under load, is that good? Sorry for the dumb questions.. lol.

[joecar]

Powerhouse, welcome to the forum... :cheers:

Any KR is not good, it means the PCM detected knocking and is reducing ignition timing to prevent it; either it's real knock (which may or may not be audible; 9 degrees of KR would be...), or it's false (knock sensors picking up valvetrain noise, or other reason...).

Your commanded AFR's look right.


The one next to it showed 0.0I'm not sure what that is, can you post a pic (see howto post #2: http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=3064 )



If you saved a log file, can you post it this thread.

Not dumb questions... it would be dumb to not ask... ;)

Cheers
Joe
:cheers:

[Powerhouse]

Yeah, i have a log.. I'll upload it in a second

[Powerhouse]

Here is the log file. It's towards the 11.12.37sec mark.

http://files-upload.com/389731/Log_0001.efi.html

You HAVE to click on the link. You can't right click save as..

[Powerhouse]

What would knock sound? Also.. my car is a 2000 Camaro SS M6 with:

Futral F14 cam 232"/234" .598 "/.598" 112LSA
Patriot dual Gold Extreme valve springs
Comp cams Chrome Moly Pushrods 7.400 (Stock Length)
Futral motorsports ported LS6 oil pump
LS2 timing Chain
90mm FAST intake manifold
90mm Nick Williams Throttle Body
30lb SVO injectors
Mac Mid Length Headers
Off road ypipe
QTP electric cutout
Mac hi-flow muffler welded in stock cat-back
MTI lid w/K&N
Nitro Dave’s 90mm Plate nitrous system
NX Bottle Heater
Nitro Daves console switch center
860 Spare tire well Bottle mount
Nitrous outlet solenoid brackets
Nitrous outlet digital dual window Switch
LC-1 Wideband o2 sensor
Optima red top


I don't really hear anything out of the ordinary and it only does it in first gear.

[joecar]

What would knock sound? Sounds like popcorn popping, or marbles bouncing around; if it was happening, you would hear it at open throttle as you increase RPM.

[Powerhouse]

It only does it in first though... wouldn't it do it in all gears?

[joecar]

You have an LM1 wideband connected, is it calibrated...?

Your LM1 is indicating very lean actual AFR...
1st gear: actual AFR 20+ very lean, very very bad.
2nd,3rd: actual AFR 16-18 very lean, also bad.

You're already aware that lean promotes knocking.
If your LM1 is calibrated (or even if it's not), do not drive the car until you get this resolved.

You say you can't hear any knock...?

The knock sensors may be picking up valvetrain noise, but your actual AFR is indicated very lean by your LM1.

LM1 AFR/BEN indicates your VE, MAF, IFR tables are not dialed in.

The KR shown in 1st gear has sawtooth jaggedness, indicating that it's probably real knock, and it's duration is sustained for 4+ seconds;
remove a few spark plugs and inspect them (take pics) for signs of detonation/preignition.

Also, you may have a little too much ignition advance.

[Powerhouse]

Well fawk. Let me load up my tune so maybe you can check it out

[joecar]

Wait, you said you have an LC-1 installed...?

An LC-1 and not an LM-1, right...?

In that case we need to log the LC-1 AFR/BEN pids.

[joecar]

Here is the log file. It's towards the 11.12.37sec mark.

http://files-upload.com/389731/Log_0001.efi.html

You HAVE to click on the link. You can't right click save as..Oh, you can post your log directly in the forum thread (press Manage Attachments).

[joecar]

Ok, I applied the LC-1 AFR/BEN calc pids, and your actual AFR got better, it's closer to commanded AFR...

but, if VE/MAF/IFR were dialed in, actual AFR would [pretty much] track commanded AFR closely.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/8186/ph1jr7.png

[Powerhouse]

Is it still unsafe?

[Powerhouse]

Also.. It has Speed Density so the Maf isn't plugged in

[joecar]

Is it still unsafe?I would investigate that knock... especially if you use nitrous.

For nitrous you need AFR as rich as low 11's, but I'm not an expert on nitrous.

You can't hear it knock...?

You may want to check/replace your knock sensors and knock sensor subharness; do you get any DTC's...?

Have you been tuned for your mods...
in particular:
- injector need IFR table to be recomputed;
- cam, intake, tb need VE table to be dialed in;

[joecar]

Do you calibrate your LC-1 (heater cal, and then free air cal)...?

[joecar]

I think your timing's too high (again considering nitrous) and your AFR is a little lean in some places.

[Powerhouse]

I just bought this car last weekend... This software was included and the guy seemed knowledgable about it. I just want to make sure the tune is good. Im a total newb with Efi Live. I don't remember hearing any knock.. I guess I could pay a little more attention to it.

I tried to pull my tune but it said it couldn't read the pcm. Im updated Efi live so maybe thats all it is. I'll load it up when I get it

[joecar]

Read the LC-1 manual and follow the heater cal and free air cal procedures:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/LC-1_Manual.pdf

Do you have the DB-9 to stereo connector for connecting the LC-1 to your laptop...?

Download this version of EFILive software (download the zip, follow the instructions on this page):
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5707


It may be a combination of a little too much timing and valvetrain noise.

Do you have EFILive FlashScan V1 (has no LCD) or V2 (has LCD)...?

[joecar]

More info:
Auto VE Tuning tutorial: http://store.efilive.com/download.aspx#downloads7
Injector Spreadsheet: http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/injectors.xls

[Powerhouse]

It's FlashScan V1.2

[Powerhouse]

And yes I can the DB-9 to stereo connector

[joecar]

And yes I can the DB-9 to stereo connectorGet the LM Programmer software from Innovate's website and use it to connect to the LC-1 to see what AFR:V it's analog output is programmed for... (you will need the stereo terminator plug plugged into SERIAL IN, and your laptop plugged into SERIAL OUT)...

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support.php

When you connect to the LC-1, take a screenshot of the analog tabs and post here...

we want to confirm that the LC-1 calc pids match the AFR:V programmed into your LC-1.

[Powerhouse]

Ok ill download that and try to configure it.


Attatched is my tune file.. let me know what you think about it.

[joecar]

Ok, try this, go a bit richer and see if KR goes away.
Or, try some octane boost.
Check for oil being ingested via PCv plumbing.
Check spark plugs.

If you can't hear it, maybe it's false knock, but maybe not (you can't always hear real knock unless it's severe)...

It's better to assume it is real knock...

If you could determine what AFR/V points your LC-1 is set to (using the LM Programmer software) then we would know if your AFR calc pid is right.

[Powerhouse]

My stupid laptop screen keeps messing up on me. I got the program downloaded and everything hooked up.. but then the screen messed up! I'll give it a go tomorrow after work. I really appreciate your help man!!

[5.7ute]

Have a look at his VE table joecar it needs a bit of work. Also his B3647 table is set to 1.0 up to 65kpa & pe to 1.0. I would think his vetable has been skewed from trims.

[Powerhouse]

So what do I need to do?

[5.7ute]

Have a look at the auto ve tutorial. However the tutorial is based from the old tutorial where fuel trims were being used for tuning & there was no custom OS so a few changes need to be made.
The first is that in table b3647 you can not command 14.63 afr or 1.0 EQ as the custom OS has semi closed loop which will mess with your tuning data. Change this to around AFR 14.5 to prevent this. Pe can be set to wherever you like it. DFCO can even be left on as you can filter it out later.
Once the VE table is dialled in correctly then you can command 14.63 AFR in the B3647 table which will allow semi closed loop if you so wish.

[joecar]

Ah, good point (I had forgotten)... set B3647 to values other than EQ 1.00 until you're finished dialing in VE table and MAF table (otherwise COS will use STFT to trim any cells that are set to 1.00).

I agree, VE table needs some work...

[Powerhouse]

What do you guys think about the tune now? I messed with it a little... Haven't ran it yet.