Tool to help tune A4 shift points...

[SSpdDmon]

Well...spreadsheet. Here ya go. Now you can visually see the upshifts next to the downshifts and the TCC applies/releases next to each other without having to flip between multiple tables in the software. It's pre-filled with the numbers I'm going to try in my friend's A4 F-body (4.10's) this weekend. :)

What to do with it:

Start with your upshifts and downshifts before playing with the TCC apply/releases. First off, copy/paste (no labels) your Normal, Part Throttle vs. VSS upshifts/downshifts/TCC Apply/TCC Release columns into the appropriate columns on the left side of the spreadsheet.

We'll start with the first graph (Shifts). What you're looking at is upshifts represented by solid lines and downshifts by hashed/dotted lines. I tried to color code it so the upshift is slightly darker than the downshift (i.e. 3>4 is red and 4>3 is orange) - it helps a little visually. Anyway, ideally you want to keep your upshifts greater than your downshifts between a given set of gears. Personally, I like to keep the downshift slightly higher than the previous gear change's upshift. So, the general rule for this graph is:

(2-to-1)<(1-to-2)<(3-to-2)<(2-to-3)<(4-to-3)<(3-to-4)

The next two graphs help you to see where the TCC will apply and release in relation to the shifts that can affect it. The first one (TCC 3rd Gear) is a little tricky because sometimes people cruise around in D instead of (D). Here you want your TCC apply to be greater than or equal to your upshift AND greater than your TCC release. Technically the PCM will command the TCC to release for a downshift, but I like to keep the TCC release slightly higher than the downshift. That way, if a downshift is commanded, the TCC is already disengaged. It also serves to let the converter 'work' in certain scenarios. For example, say the car is slowing down going up a hill even though you're giving it 25% throttle. The TCC will release and you can make use of the toqure multiplication of the stall before it'll downshift into the lower gear. So, the general rule for this graph is:

(3-to-2)<(3rd Rel.)<(3rd App.) AND (2-to-3)<(3rd App.)

Another thing to note...when cars have a loose aftermarket stall, it's a good idea to max out the first two TP% rows to prevent what I call inverted lockup. This is when the engine speed is spinning slower than the drivetrain and the TCC decides to lockup. When this happens, it feels like you went to hit the gas and found the brake pedal instead. http://www.motownmuscle.com/forums/images/smilies/lol.gif

The next graph (TCC 4th Gear) works just like the previous one. The rule here is:

(4-to-3)<(4th Rel.)<(4th App.) AND (3-to-4)<(4th App.)

Again, note the first two rows being maxed out to prevent inverted lockup.

The final graph (TCC - 3rd & 4th) is there for further visualization, but it wasn't really necessary as 3rd & 4th TCC apply/release technically have nothing to do with each other.

Hope that helps some... :D



The nice thing is, you can set this up for a few cars and then "Save as" Trans-3.73s or whatever. Then...before you know it, you'll have a worksheet for most any combination. That way, when the next car rolls in, all you have to do is copy over the numbers from the right spreadsheet. :D

[joecar]

Ahhh... :cheers: ...up/down-shifts on the same page... easy on the brain. :cheers:

[Redline Motorsports]

Looks cool! Now I have to figure out how to utilize it! LOL! I hate the autos!:Eyecrazy:

[redhardsupra]

pardon my ignorance, but how is this to be used? all i see is a visualization of curves, it doesn't tell me what's good/bad

[SSpdDmon]

pardon my ignorance, but how is this to be used? all i see is a visualization of curves, it doesn't tell me what's good/bad
I edited the original post to give you some general rules to observe when using the spreadsheet. :)

*cough*cough*sticky*cough http://www.motownmuscle.com/forums/images/smilies/lol.gif

[JAY4SPEED]

Thanks for sharing the spreadsheet! I was trying to figure out how to display all shifts on the same graph before this came along.

Jay

[jess3000]

Thanks for sharing the spreadsheet! Just found it on Google when I was trying to figure out how to display all shifts. Jessica

[alian]

This is great , wish I had found this along time ago. just have to remember to adjust for the mph/kph when compairing.
Cheers Ian

[whackem04]

This is the best place to start tranny tuning. Put those values in the normal section and get started.

[alian]

Has there been anyone done something like this for the A6.
Cheers Ian

[W_D_R]

Can I copy and paste the values in the spreadsheet to my tune or would it be best to make slight adjustments to my current numbers? 5500 lb 1997 2dr yukon with 383 4l60e, 0411, 3.42.

Wes

[Cool28]

can someone check my shift tune i made. this is for a 4l80e with a 25.91 tire and 3.00 gearing. Looks good on my side but not really that sure since still new at this


12729

[joecar]

can someone check my shift tune i made. this is for a 4l80e with a 25.91 tire and 3.00 gearing. Looks good on my side but not really that sure since still new at this
12729Looks good to me.

[johnmaster]

Nice tool, I will be using this for sure!

[ScarabEpic22]

I have used this on both of my cars with great success, I was chasing my tail on my TBSS trying to get it to downshift correctly from 4->2 on the hwy around 65-70mph, finally remembered I should check my shift points in this spreadsheet. Adjusted a few things, and now it downshifts much better and consistently. No more "thinking" time, it just does it now.

[SSpdDmon]

Glad this is still proving useful. :)

[whackem04]

Anyway to get this in Allison format or 6 speed?

[whackem04]

So I take it no one has tried. Someone had an excel file that showed graphs. Is there anyway to edit for more gears?

[wesam]

Thanks a lot for sharing the sheet
I have one question are those three rules should be applied along the curves ( Also @ WOT )?
(2-to-1)<(1-to-2)<(3-to-2)<(2-to-3)<(4-to-3)<(3-to-4)
(3-to-2)<(3rd Rel.)<(3rd App.) AND (3-to-4)<(3rd App.)
(4-to-3)<(4th Rel.)<(4th App.) AND (3-to-4)<(4th App.)

[joecar]

Thanks a lot for sharing the sheet
I have one question are those three rules should be applied along the curves ( Also @ WOT )?
(2-to-1)<(1-to-2)<(3-to-2)<(2-to-3)<(4-to-3)<(3-to-4)
(3-to-2)<(3rd Rel.)<(3rd App.) AND (2-to-3)<(3rd App.)
(4-to-3)<(4th Rel.)<(4th App.) AND (3-to-4)<(4th App.)
Yes, correct, for WOT and PT (with correction).

[ScarabEpic22]

I used this to tweak the shift points on a 2013 Impala T43, just did gears 1-4 first then did 4-6. Made 2 spreadsheets, be a lot easier to do with 1 though.

If SSpdmon is ok with it, Id be happy to edit the spreadsheet for the 6spds but he'd have to send me an unlocked copy first.

[wesam]

Yes, correct, for WOT and PT (with correction).

Thanks Joe
Could you correct the main post so no body will take a wrong rule

[wesam]

Yes, correct, for WOT and PT (with correction).

Joe are you sure from this correction ?!!
when i tried to apply your rule i did not find any benefit from putting the rule as that ( (2-to-3)<(3rd App.) ) because it will not shown in the second graph in SSpdDemon sheet
I think it is wrriten right in his post

[joecar]

TCC 3rd apply should occur after the 2->3...

( if the TCC 3rd app is lower, then the TCC will simply be locked immediately on upshifting into 3rd )

( regardless of the 3->4 upshift which hasn't occcurred yet )

[joecar]

Reread SSpdDmon's paragraph on TCC 3rd app:


...

The next two graphs help you to see where the TCC will apply and release in relation to the shifts that can affect it. The first one (TCC 3rd Gear) is a little tricky because sometimes people cruise around in D instead of (D). Here you want your TCC apply to be greater than or equal to your upshift AND greater than your TCC release. Technically the PCM will command the TCC to release for a downshift, but I like to keep the TCC release slightly higher than the downshift. That way, if a downshift is commanded, the TCC is already disengaged. It also serves to let the converter 'work' in certain scenarios. For example, say the car is slowing down going up a hill even though you're giving it 25% throttle. The TCC will release and you can make use of the toqure multiplication of the stall before it'll downshift into the lower gear. So, the general rule for this graph is:

(3-to-2)<(3rd Rel.)<(3rd App.) AND (3-to-4)<(3rd App.)

...
( I added colors for purpose of illustration )

It is talking about the 2->3 upshift, and clearly the logic equation shows the wrong upshift.

The logic equation should read like this:


(3-to-2)<(3rd Rel.)<(3rd App.) AND (2-to-3)<(3rd App.)

[joecar]

Joe are you sure from this correction ?!!
when i tried to apply your rule i did not find any benefit from putting the rule as that ( (2-to-3)<(3rd App.) ) because it will not shown in the second graph in SSpdDemon sheet
I think it is wrriten right in his postIf you add the 2->3 upshift to the TCC 3rd gear spreadsheet graph, you will see that (2-3) < (3rd App).

[whackem04]

Lets just hope he will. It sucks tuning an Allison and have to calculate most shift points by hand. Thats what computers are for right?

[joecar]

You should be able to goto the Allison shift tables and copy/paste them into a spreadsheet...

you will then have to use your spreadsheet skills to draws graphs of the tables.

[Supercharged111]

I LOVE visuals, this is awesome. You can see how wide your hysteris(es?ii?) are with this as well. Should chop some time off of redoing my shift tables. Generally I make only 1 or 2 changes at a time, but with it all laid out like this I made a buttload of changes all at once and can immediately see if something's overlapping that shouldn't.

[joecar]

+1 I agree visuals are worth 10K words.

[EagleMark]

Have to agree! Used this tool for the first time and the visual is great!

[joecar]

For reference:



PT shift table relationships:

basic relationships:
1->2 curve should be above 2->1 curve;
2->3 curve should be above 3->2 curve;
3->4 curve should be above 4->3 curve;
. . .

additional relationships:
3->2 curve should be above 1->2 curve;
4->3 curve should be above 2->3 curve;
. . .

this can be summarized as: the curves cannot cross anywhere;

if they cross anywhere, then you will not be able to predict what gear the TCM selects when the operating point hits the cross.


This is what post #1 is saying.

[Illegal Vette]

This old thread and the spreadsheet it contains has really help me to visualize my shift points, and I would like to thank SSpdDmon, joecar and the rest of you! I've been experimenting with the shift points and comparing to stock files and others. I've attached my current version, I'd be interested in any input.

[joecar]

This old thread and the spreadsheet it contains has really help me to visualize my shift points, and I would like to thank SSpdDmon, joecar and the rest of you! I've been experimenting with the shift points and comparing to stock files and others. I've attached my current version, I'd be interested in any input.
Thanks for sharing.

I opened it in LibreOffice Calc and it looks good :cheers:

[Illegal Vette]

Thanks for sharing.

I opened it in LibreOffice Calc and it looks good :cheers:

Thanks for taking the time to look at it, I'm flying by the seat of my pants here and your opinion means a lot!

[joecar]

Some comments on shift curves:

- you can space out each shift curve and its corresponding upshift curves so that they have more vertical distance between them (see 2002 Camaro A4 tune file), this will improve drivability (i.e. engine rpm "feel" will better match "urgency" of throttle position; i.e. for these pairs 1->2 and 2->1, 2->3 and 3->2, 3->4 and 4->3; when editing, remember to maintain this relationship:


PT shift table relationships:

basic relationships:
1->2 curve should be above 2->1 curve;
2->3 curve should be above 3->2 curve;
3->4 curve should be above 4->3 curve;
. . .

additional relationships:
3->2 curve should be above 1->2 curve;
4->3 curve should be above 2->3 curve;
. . .

this can be summarized as: the curves cannot cross anywhere;

if they cross anywhere, then you will not be able to predict what gear the TCM selects when the operating point hits the cross.


- same with TCC apply/release curves, space them out (see 2002 Camaro A4 tune file), driveability will improve.



Then when done editing, set all the WOT MPH shift parameters to the same values at the 100% columns in the PT shift curves.

[Illegal Vette]

Some comments on shift curves:

- you can space out each shift curve and its corresponding upshift curves so that they have more vertical distance between them (see 2002 Camaro A4 tune file), this will improve drivability (i.e. engine rpm "feel" will better match "urgency" of throttle position; i.e. for these pairs 1->2 and 2->1, 2->3 and 3->2, 3->4 and 4->3; when editing, remember to maintain this relationship:


- same with TCC apply/release curves, space them out (see 2002 Camaro A4 tune file), driveability will improve.



Then when done editing, set all the WOT MPH shift parameters to the same values at the 100% columns in the PT shift curves.

Thanks for telling me to match the WOT shifts to the 100% PT shifts. My WOT were a dash higher. It looks to me like my upshift and downshift curves are spaced out like you say, but my TCC apply and release are less so. Is this something I should be looking at?

[joecar]

If it's a street car, then you can get muclecar feel if you unlock TCC at low VSS.

[Illegal Vette]

If it's a street car, then you can get muclecar feel if you unlock TCC at low VSS.

Thus the 255's in the first 2 cells of 3rd apply and 4th apply on the A4 spreadsheet?

[joecar]

Thus the 255's in the first 2 cells of 3rd apply and 4th apply on the A4 spreadsheet?I meant push the TCC release curve down further, for example look at 2002 Camaro A4 tune file, the 3rd TCC release and 4th TCC release are fairly flat down low... if your PCM keeps TCC applied on zero throttle, having the 3rd/4th TCC release curves low keeps the TCC applied until car is going too slow for TCC, but while above this it feels like a manual tranmission, and makes engine growl when you release throttle (i.e. musclecar feel).

[Illegal Vette]

I meant push the TCC release curve down further, for example look at 2002 Camaro A4 tune file, the 3rd TCC release and 4th TCC release are fairly flat down low... if your PCM keeps TCC applied on zero throttle, the having the 3rd/4th TCC release curves low keeps the TCC applied until car is going too slow for TCC, but while above this it feels like a manual tranmission, and makes engine growl when you release throttle (i.e. musclecar feel).

Ok, pretty easy to do with 3rd release, and perhaps not so easy with 4th release in my case since the table is pretty squished together in my effort to make it more responsive. I did lower 4-3 a little, but as it currently stands there's no room to lower 4th release without going below 4-3. I've loaded the modified numbers into my PCM and am going for a test drive.

[joecar]

Since you have plenty of torque throughout the rpm range, you can push the 4->3 curve down lower...

i.e. instead of easily downshifting at part throttle (and keeping rpm unnecessarily high), let engine torque do what it does best (pull vehicle along).

( one reason that the 4L60E survives behind an LS1 is that unnecessary downshifts (and subsequent upshifts) are avoided by having the downshift curves sufficiently separated from the upshift curves )


( in case you don't see it yet, automatic transmissions are optimized for drag racing, not road racing )

[Illegal Vette]

Thanks for coaching me up on this joecar! I spread out the 4th gear graph a little more and I think it's a good compromise between too responsive and lugging in high gear.

[joecar]

Also: set the Throttle Kickdown tables to 100% TP all across, this allows the PT upshift/downshift tables and the WOT parameters to control shifting.

[Mean Green Z28]

This thread is awesome!

Gonna do some of these changes to my 4L80E swap and see how it behaves.

Anyone done any for a 4L80E on a Silverado with stock tires? 3.42 gears and turbo

[joecar]

This is a key point...


PT shift table relationships:

basic relationships:
1->2 curve should be above 2->1 curve;
2->3 curve should be above 3->2 curve;
3->4 curve should be above 4->3 curve;

additional relationships:
3->2 curve should be above 1->2 curve;
4->3 curve should be above 2->3 curve;

this can be summarized as: the curves cannot cross anywhere;

if they cross anywhere, then you will not be able to predict what gear the PCM selects when the operating point hits the cross.

[Supercharged111]

This is a key point...

Don't forget about TCC lockup. I bring in 4th lockup a lot sooner than stock and I have an area around 40-45mph where the truck locks in 3rd, shifts to 4th, unlocks, then realizes it should be locked. All without moving my foot. It doesn't happen very often, so I constantly forget to look at it on the tune. 4th should come in sooner than 3rd lockup and I'm pretty sure that's what I command, but they may be a little too close together. Don't forget about downshifts, mine is programmed to hold 4th lockup with quite a bit of pedal. If you go too far, you'll downshift straight to 2nd and never even think about 3rd or they'll be so close together the vehicle may hunt between the 2. All stuff I've encountered while playing with the trans shift points.

[Mean Green Z28]

Well I started fooling around with a table and then decided to drive around a bit with the stock 2009 G3500 4L80E tune shift points so I can actually feel where I want improvements. The stock 4L60E shift points are actually much higher and "sportier" ... also the tow/haul works very different and holds 4th until a pretty high speed vs. The stock 4L60E tune. I may just keep that as is.
For now, I'm assuming, as it's a Van (not a sports car/truck) it has pretty low shift points and tcc lockup tables. Also these shift points seem to be optimized for a 4.10 gear ratio than my 3.42 ... so I feel I'm spending a lot of time with the engine well below the power band with no power and lots of turbo lag. I could in essence increase the tcc tables so around town driving isn't as luggy with the tcc locked up but feel it's a bandaid to the bigger issue of the gearing paired to my 4L80E ratios. May start looking into a 3.73 or 4.10 soon.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Mean Green Z28]

can someone look at this? I copied the 4L60E shift points in (they're a bit higher) and then adjusted the downshift curves to not intersect any other curves, then played with the TCC curves.

Thanks!

[Mean Green Z28]

Don't forget about TCC lockup. I bring in 4th lockup a lot sooner than stock and I have an area around 40-45mph where the truck locks in 3rd, shifts to 4th, unlocks, then realizes it should be locked. All without moving my foot. It doesn't happen very often, so I constantly forget to look at it on the tune. 4th should come in sooner than 3rd lockup and I'm pretty sure that's what I command, but they may be a little too close together. Don't forget about downshifts, mine is programmed to hold 4th lockup with quite a bit of pedal. If you go too far, you'll downshift straight to 2nd and never even think about 3rd or they'll be so close together the vehicle may hunt between the 2. All stuff I've encountered while playing with the trans shift points.don't 4L80E's unock TCC for shifts? I've seen that in my logs. It'll go 1>2>3>LOCK>UNLOCK>4>LOCK ... annoying

[Supercharged111]

don't 4L80E's unock TCC for shifts? I've seen that in my logs. It'll go 1>2>3>LOCK>UNLOCK>4>LOCK ... annoying

It unlocks after the fact when it realizes what it just did, so 1>2>3>LOCK>4>UNLOCK>LOCK. I think I just need to have 3rd lock later or 4th upshift sooner so it doesn't get confused.

[joecar]

It unlocks after the fact when it realizes what it just did, so 1>2>3>LOCK>4>UNLOCK>LOCK. I think I just need to have 3rd lock later or 4th upshift sooner so it doesn't get confused.Post your tune file... and the spreadsheet with your shift/tcc tables in it.

[statesman]

can someone look at this? I copied the 4L60E shift points in (they're a bit higher) and then adjusted the downshift curves to not intersect any other curves, then played with the TCC curves.

Thanks!

You've got your 3rd gear TCC lockup the same speed as your 3-4 shift.... that's not good. You should have 3rd gear TCC set higher than the 3-4 shift. 3rd gear TCC lockup should only happen if you manually lock the gear selector into 3rd gear.

[Mean Green Z28]

You've got your 3rd gear TCC lockup the same speed as your 3-4 shift.... that's not good. You should have 3rd gear TCC set higher than the 3-4 shift. 3rd gear TCC lockup should only happen if you manually lock the gear selector into 3rd gear.
Thanks, fixed ... how does this look? just bumped the 3rd gear TCC numbers up by about 4mph

[Mean Green Z28]

well I tried the spreadsheet values I made following this and it made the trans very busy.. Probably due to the 3.42 gears and the 4L80E's steep gearing with the 78mm turbo on the 5.3 (Read: Lag) that I have to really get into the throttle to get her going and the trans constantly shifts and TCC locks/unlocks, etc. Copied the 4L60E tune shift points that I remember to be a nice mix of performance like feel and drive-ability on this trans. Will still keep playing around.

[joecar]

Move the sloped part of the shift curves to a higher TPS%.