How can I unlock a PCM

[imtduncan]

I have a custom race engine that uses a Gen III PCM (1999 & up). As it is a racing engine it runs in open loop all of the time. The engine builder wants us to pay him every time we want to make a change of any kind so, the investment in EFI live will quickly pay for itself if we can use it.

When I try to download the tune program EFI live says that the PCM is locked. I can't just "blank" the PCM and start over with a stock problem because this is a very specific tune and I really need the baseline. Does anyone know of a way (or someone who has a service) to "unlock" this PCM without losing any of the information that is in it right now?

[eboggs_jkvl]

You need to unlock the tune with the same system that locked it. If it can't be read by EFILive, he has you by the short hairs.

Elmer

[Biggsy]

Send "DELCO" a pm (Daniel from Chipmaster Performance), I think he has a way, but you would have to send the PCM to him.

[mr.prick]

where do people get off locking a pcm that they don`t own?
:bash: :rippedhand: :mad:

[Biggsy]

where do people get off locking a pcm that they don`t own?
:bash: :rippedhand: :mad:

My .02c

Look, I kind of agree with you, but, some people spend many hours developing their tunes and want some sort of protection from people copying their ideas.

I know no two cars/engines are the same, so no 2 tunes will be the same, but it would give you a great head start if you had one already done.

I beleive people should have the right to lock tunes out, BUT, they should tell the owner of the PCM that this is what they are going to to AND give them the option of having it returned to stock UNLOCKED for little or no cost (obviously if people want it changed back to and from stock several times, they shouldn't expect this done for free)

I have NEVER locked a tune and NEVER will.

[mr.prick]

My .02c

Look, I kind of agree with you, but, some people spend many hours developing their tunes and want some sort of protection from people copying their ideas.

I know no two cars/engines are the same, so no 2 tunes will be the same, but it would give you a great head start if you had one already done.

I beleive people should have the right to lock tunes out, BUT, they should tell the owner of the PCM that this is what they are going to to AND give them the option of having it returned to stock UNLOCKED for little or no cost (obviously if people want it changed back to and from stock several times, they shouldn't expect this done for free)

I have NEVER locked a tune and NEVER will.
bullshit!
if you don`t own it you should not lock it!
i understand your point of view but if you pay me to work on your house
can i lock you out when i am done?
i think allot of tuners lock to hide they`re screwed up work,
and if i pay out my hard earned cash i want to know exactly
what i am getting,
and how a tuner gets his/her results is not easily replicated j
ust by looking at the finished tune.
i `m not going off on you, (just going off)
but i have had more than one bad tune and
thankfully have not been locked out.
there is NO justification for locking this guys or anyones PCM.
what if someone with a locked PCM has some kind of problem that needs to be fixed on the road or far the "MR. i own your car now tuner"?
or what if you want to change something you feel should be changed
i guess you are SOL.

just my opinion. :notacrook:

[Delco]

bullshit!
if you don`t own it you should not lock it!
i understand your point of view but if you pay me to work on your house
can i lock you out when i am done?
i think allot of tuners lock to hide they`re screwed up work,
and if i pay out my hard earned cash i want to know exactly
what i am getting,
and how a tuner gets his/her results is not easily replicated j
ust by looking at the finished tune.
i `m not going off on you, (just going off)
but i have had more than one bad tune and
thankfully have not been locked out.
there is NO justification for locking this guys or anyones PCM.
what if someone with a locked PCM has some kind of problem that needs to be fixed on the road or far the "MR. i own your car now tuner"?
or what if you want to change something you feel should be changed
i guess you are SOL.

just my opinion. :notacrook:

What you forget is the tune is locked from GM , it is only through teh goods work of EFILIVE that you are able to unlock any PCM to look at it.


Any tune or PCM can be unlocked , it just takes time and experience to unlock , shoot me a PM and we can sort your issue out :)

[Biggsy]

i `m not going off on you, (just going off)

Thats cool, I want to hear all sides/opinions, thats what forums are all about. :cheers:

I'm not here to say I'm RIGHT and you are WRONG, just like to hear what people have to say :) .

Please don't take the following as an attack against you either.



i understand your point of view but if you pay me to work on your house
can i lock you out when i am done?

Technically, it would be you doing work on the house and me not being able to get that work you did changed (unless I go through you). I still can use (drive) the house (car).

Well, using my house in some examples (love using examples :D ) :

1:- You are the electricity supplier, you connect power through a sealed power meter (locked PCM), I can have you remove this meter (unlock and restore tune to stock), and I can generate my own electricity (use my own tune)

2:- You are the bank I used to purchased the house. The bank has the house "locked" (they have the deed to the house), so in principle, I can't change/sell it (without using them). I could pay them out, and get the deed (go back to the tuner and get PCM unlocked), and change anything on the house.

3:- Foxtel Cable TV, I can buy the decoder box (PCM), use their unscrambler EEPROM card (their tune). I cannot get the card (tune) changed without using them.

Yes, I know there are holes in my examples that can be picked, they were the best I could come up with after a few :beer: on a Saturday night!

All I'm saying is that the house (car) isn't locked, only a part of it.


but i have had more than one bad tune and
thankfully have not been locked out.

If I payed good money to have my car tuned and it was bad, I would take it straight back to the tuner and get it fixed. If they were unable to, I would persue it further until they restored it back to the original tune and I got refunded my hard earned cash.
Same goes for any sort of service I pay for, not just cars.



what if someone with a locked PCM has some kind of problem that needs to be fixed on the road or far the "MR. i own your car now tuner"? or what if you want to change something you feel should be changed i guess you are SOL.

If you were made aware of the fact that the tune will be locked before hand (like I mentioned before), and, you were likely to be taking the car far from the tuner that locked it, or, you wanted (or wanted someone else in the future) to make changes, DON'T USE THAT TUNER!

If they are upfront and honest about what they are going to do, you can use this information to make a desision to refuse their service. I TOTALLY DISSAGREE with tuners who lock tunes without telling the customer first.


I tell everyone I know, that are looking to get their car tuned, to ask if the tune will be locked. I explain to them the consiquenses of having a locked tune (noone will have access to it, not even the manufacturer). I find that it doesn't deter that many people. The biggest question I usually get is :-
Will having the car tuned void the new car warranty? The answer to that question will deter a lot more people!

There are a couple of problems I COULD forsee (something add to your side of this discussion ;) ).

1:- If the owner of the vehicle sells it and doesn't disclose to the new owner that the PCM is locked.

2:- The tuner who locked it, dissapears / loses their hardware and/or software / dies / sells up, making it impossible to unlock.

But, the WORST case scenario is a new (or S/H) PCM and getting it flashed.

Anyways, if locking a tune is such a bad thing, none of the tuning software packages available would have it as an option to change.

Like I said before, I WILL NEVER lock a tune. I don't personally have a problem with people reading/modifying my tunes.


just my opinion.

Just my opinion too. :cheers:

[Biggsy]

What you forget is the tune is locked from GM , it is only through teh goods work of EFILIVE that you are able to unlock any PCM to look at it

Good point!

[ringram]

...Unless you purchase the car knowing that the OEM tune is able to be easily accessed and edited.
Then you would be pissed. Anyone who takes his car to be tuned, knows that the tuner or anyone else for that matter can access the tune and change it. If they approve the tuner to lock the car and not tell them then cool. If not then its a no no in my book.
If you are talking about Mr Doe who doesnt even want a tune, then Id agree. But with an aftermarket tune I dont. I never think that locking is acceptable.

I think you an exhaustively try all keys with a PCM reset between each attempt. I also think there may be a program that can automate this process..... at least a little mouse told me that anyway :)

[Delco]

Unlocking the chip mechanically is easy , do it the same way we used to tune all chips.

Desolder it from the board , put it in a eprom programmer , reprogram the chip.

The thing most people forget is every tune is locked from the factory , in the old days us tuners had to work out how to unlock the calibrations , nowdays thatns to EFILIVE all the hard work is done for us .

So in effect your PCM isnt "LOCKED" to a proffesional tuner , just harder to access.

My how we have got lazy and expect everything to be handed to us on a silver plater these days , I suppose it is the way of society demanding this and that - I see it in my son lately and cant say I like the attitude of todays youth.

I think we better buy Ross and Paul a few beers for that :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :notacrook:

[dirt_track_racer_81]

another reason why i can agree with locking a pcm is if you tune a customers vehicle and the owner of the vehicle also has efi live or hp and thinks they can tune better than me and and ends up doing some damage to the motor and coming back to me saying im a bad tuner and his motor blew up because of my bad tune..

[ls1vt209]

Nothing like digging up an old thread.

But I think that locking tunes is a pain in the butt and it is bull that people are just trying to protect their work from being used by someone other than them.

The problem I have recently come across is a mate bought a car from interstate (Some 1500km away). The car has a slight problem at idle and stalls at unwanted and sometimes dangerous times. I have logged the car and the problem appears to be tune related. Now the company that tuned the car has locked the PCM. So therefore he has to either do a 3000km return trip/remove the PCM and send it back to them to most likely have a stock tune put in it and returned to him unlocked or get another PCM and start all over again, either way this is going to see his car off the road, a great inconvenience to him.

What a dead set pain in the a... I have no problem if I could get into the tune of fixing the few parameters that need to be changed, problem solved in about 10 minutes but because it is locked I can't.

Another problem I see is that if the shop that tuned it closed down etc how do you get unlocked other than sending it to someone like Delco. What if the current owner was the third owner since the car had been tuned and locked, same problem as above.

Anyway the real problem is the tune/car could have been fixed in less than half an hour had the tune not be locked, now it is going to cost the owner more money and time to get the problem resolved.

End rant.

[4wheelin]

I just had to do the same thing, a customer had cold running and part throttle woes on a cammed LS1 VT Clubsport and I had to fit our changeover ECU do a full tune and now I have to get his unlocked to put back on the shelf.
There is the question of intellectual property ownership, in Australia my understanding is the employer owns it, just as if a software developer develops a piece of software while in the employ of a software company, the company owns the software and the employee who may have written the material would be breaking the law if they were to reproduce it for another employer.

Joel

[macca_779]

The thing I find with locking is that its just an inconvenience to the new tuner. As far as protecting intellectual property goes locking doesn't stop that at all. The core data that a tuner holds close, ie a spark table can be logged and built into a MAP anyway.

[ls1vt209]

The thing I find with locking is that its just an inconvenience to the new tuner. As far as protecting intellectual property goes locking doesn't stop that at all. The core data that a tuner holds close, ie a spark table can be logged and built into a MAP anyway.

Totally agree macca, only takes a decent log to get an idea of spark tables etc with a decent map.

As I said this could have been a simple 10 minute fix instead of being a severe inconvenience for the owner.

The whole idea of intellectual property is total and utter BS. It is the same thing as your image out in public. You don't own your image and therefore can legally be photographed (Children aside) and there is nothing that can be done about it (Unless a court has ruled otherwise). Same as a tune IMO, once you leave the shop that did the tune it is your property (The owner of the PCM) plain and simple.

I would like to test the whole intellectual ownership in a Court however have neither the time or patience atm.

[drdarthinvader]

newbee here: i can see in the future cival law suits to determin the intellectual property rights ......

[4wheelin]

Whether you copy, modify, or change software written by another author without express permission you are risking breaching copywrite law, you can log spark and AFR tables but that dosen't make it leagle.

JOel

[RacerChris]

Whether you copy, modify, or change software written by another author without express permission you are risking breaching copywrite law, you can log spark and AFR tables but that dosen't make it leagle.

JOel
Im not sure how it is in other states or countries but in Missouri USA, the guy who wrote the tune would have little IF ANY, legal limb to stand on trying to go after someone who modifies his/her tune based on the fact that he/she (the tuner) did the same malicious act to GM and the original programmers. To pursue the law you have to be operating within the laws limits.
I can see both sides of this story (and it is a good one), I do feel that someone who invents a way of doing something, epecialy when your talking about tuning, should have the right to protect what they did. On the other hand I completely agree that the tuner has no right to lock the customer out of his/her own PCM. I dont believe in all of these examples because they apply little if any at all. A house is not a PCM!
Another side to this is that in most jusrisdictions we are all breaking the law by tunning. We are knowingly and willfuly breaking the protection codes of GM to look at their software and modify it. YES IT IS AGAINST THE LAW!!! Its even further against the law for the profesional tuner who is making money off of it. (Talk about copyright infrigement)
The only reason you dont hear stories of GM taking people to court is because its bad business. They understand that the vehicle owners are buying there equipment because they want to go fast. They also know that the majority of these people want to go faster and will do so by modding which will eventually require tunning. GM also understands that when people do this they make there car faster which in turn sells itself... How many times have you heard of someone seeing a car take-off from a light and then say something like... "Wow! I gotta buy me a Camaro, Vette GTO, ect." If any manufacturer started pursuing these people a few things would happen. First... The car lobby's would jump there ass and give them a ton of bad publicity, 2nd.... Loyal lovers of that brand would begine to backlash against them and probably boycot them entirely, 3rd.... There vehicles would start seriously loosing when it came to aftermarket speed and add-ons, last.... Sales would slump due to boycoting, and why would a performance enthousiast want to buy something that looses to everything that has a $50.00 bolt-on???
Also... Another reason you dont see manufactures going after tuners is because the manufactures didnt write the codes to keep joe shmoe out, they wrote them to keep out the other manufactures long enough for there product to gain dominance in the market for that particular yearor model change.

Want to see a legal battle???? Break GM's code and then go to another manufacturer and sell it to them. YOU WILL BE SUED! AND YOU WILL LOOSE!!!

Wow.... Sorry for the long post but theres my 2 cents!

[The Alchemist]

As a follow professional tuner Macca I totally agree with your statement.

1: its a real pain in the arse for the new second owner who lives in another town from the "locker" if you need work done by a local tuner. We have a real problem with a couple of tuners in Auckland who do this all the time WITHOUT THE PERSONS EXPRESS PERMISSION. Thats fine they just automatically loose their customers when they find out :doh2:
2: a decent log made and a few dyno runs for timing or road drives for fuel trims reveals all anyway....or sometimes reveals very little in the way of work done if you know what I mean ... :bad:
A classic is just grab the entire timing curve, add 2 degs and reflash or then theres the "grab the entire timing curve from about 3000rpm across and about 0.56g/s down type in 24 degs and flat line the timing" ?????? WTF !!!! Sometimes the intellectual property, if you can call it that, isn't worth having even if it was free!!!!

Mike



The thing I find with locking is that its just an inconvenience to the new tuner. As far as protecting intellectual property goes locking doesn't stop that at all. The core data that a tuner holds close, ie a spark table can be logged and built into a MAP anyway.

[ls1vt209]

Whether you copy, modify, or change software written by another author without express permission you are risking breaching copywrite law, you can log spark and AFR tables but that dosen't make it leagle.

JOel


This can only be breached if a copyright has been applied. I doubt tuners are going to do this to every tune they lock.

In certain circumstances copyright is applied automatically but these are wide and varied.

[drdarthinvader]

This can only be breached if a copyright has been applied. I doubt tuners are going to do this to every tune they lock.

interesting so if the tuner doesnt own the tune or the customers pcm-he doesnt have the right to lock the customers pcm without customer consent. The tuner only gets paid for his service.which is to performance tune a motor vehicle not pcm secruity.

[macca_779]

Very well said Chris and your dead right.

[Delco]

Its locked from the factory , what efilive and the other tuning tools is technically illegal as they unlock them to allow you to tune them.

[RacerChris]

Very well said Chris and your dead right.

Thank you macca! Another angle of this is that if I were a tuner and I wanted to lock my tune (NOT THAT I WOULD), I would do so. BUT NOT WITHOUT THE OWNERS CONCENT!!!!
I would have a simple contract that stated that they were purchasing a tune from me and that they consent to me locking the PCM to protect my work from being looked at and copied from other tuners. I would also state though that they have the right ot have it unlocked and that I would do so if they requested but in doing so the stock tune will be reprogramed. To further protect myself I would also state that it is thier responsibility to notify anyone who buys the vehicle from them that there is a lock on the tune and if the new owner wants it to be removed he or she can but with the stock tune being re-applied.

[macca_779]

Thank you macca! Another angle of this is that if I were a tuner and I wanted to lock my tune (NOT THAT I WOULD), I would do so. BUT NOT WITHOUT THE OWNERS CONCENT!!!!
I would have a simple contract that stated that they were purchasing a tune from me and that they consent to me locking the PCM to protect my work from being looked at and copied from other tuners. I would also state though that they have the right ot have it unlocked and that I would do so if they requested but in doing so the stock tune will be reprogramed. To further protect myself I would also state that it is thier responsibility to notify anyone who buys the vehicle from them that there is a lock on the tune and if the new owner wants it to be removed he or she can but with the stock tune being re-applied.

See now I wouldn't do that. If I did ever lock a PCM (WHICH I TOO WOULD NEVER DO) and the customer for instance moved interstate and had to see another tuner. I'd supply the new tuner with the key to access my tune. The reason being is that if I revert it back to stock then the customer has basically lost his money and has nothing left to show for it anymore. Plus he will have to get the new tuner to do a complete new tune again where it is possible that he only needed a small tweak to begin with that would of cost him a small fee, rather than the cost of a full tune. In Australia that can be a lot of money where alot of tuners charge in excess of $1000 to tune a bolt ons car (yes its ridiculous). Why should a customer have to fork out another $1000 if all he was doing was for instance upgrading his cats and needed his VE tweaked and half a degree of timing throw in.

[eboggs_jkvl]

No tune should be locked. Everything done can be figured out. The only thing a locked tune does is to be a possible PITA later if the tuner goes out of business, you move away from the tuner, whatever and you are stuck with a locked ECM that even you, with your OWN copy of EFILive, can't touch or modify. A tuner only needs to say, "I have a copy of the file for your car with a date on it". If the tune is "guaranteed" then the tune in the ECM and the date AND the data must match or there is no guarantee. The owner gets something changed in the tune and the tuner is off the hook.

My $.02

Elmer

[5.7ute]

I had a mates car come in yesterday suffering from the dreaded locked interstate tune. Without knowing who has previously done the tune now we will have the added expense of sending the pcm away to be unlocked. What a PITA.

[macca_779]

I had a mates car come in yesterday suffering from the dreaded locked interstate tune. Without knowing who has previously done the tune now we will have the added expense of sending the pcm away to be unlocked. What a PITA.

Yep its happened to me a couple of times too mate. Alot of the guys that come to me are in the Defence Force. We move around a fair bit so very few of us live near our original tuner.

Like has been said time and time before.. Locking a tune protects stuff all of ones supposed intellectual property. In fact it pisses me off so much that I have at times considered ripping a bin file out and posting it on a public forum just to piss them off too. I haven't done it yet but I have been close to doing it.

[ringram]

Its locked from the factory , what efilive and the other tuning tools is technically illegal as they unlock them to allow you to tune them.

But people buy tune tools and vehicles knowing that this can be bypassed. If someone prevents that without notifying the owner then thats theft in my book, as they have stolen the access to the PCM from the rightful owner.

Yes it can be bypassed, but at a cost, therefore only under duress, which is also illegal. It even costs you in time to recover PCM's Dan.

[GMPX]

I often hear both sides of this story and given we provide software that can lock a PCM I just stay neutral on the debate, but from both sides of the fence there is very strong arguments for shops to lock PCM's and then there is the other side of the story of the innocent customer.

For Australian EFILive customers I unlock PCM's for just $55 + postage, this is hardly going to make anyone a millionaire, I just need to cover off the time taken to do it. It's more a service so our customers don't need to factor in the cost of a replacement PCM for any customer that has a locked PCM. At one stage new LS1 PCM's were only $100 out here so most shops had quite a number of new PCM's to replace a locked one with.
BUT, I have one specific condtion, any PCM I unlock will have a stock factory tune put back in it and I do not keep a copy of the locked tune, if you don't like that then take it elsewhere.

I don't think there is any easy answer to this debate, but I do think that if a tuner is going to lock a PCM then the customer should be made aware of that rather than get a nasty surprise down the track.

Cheers,
Ross

[4wheelin]

Speaking of which I have a PCM that needs unlocking, where do I send it?

Cheers

Joel

[GMPX]

You can send it to me (shoot me a PM for postage details), or also you could contact Delco on this forum (he's in NSW).
If it comes to me it will come back with a stock Holden tune in it.

Cheers,
Ross

[Biggsy]

details), Delco on this forum (he's in NSW).



Has he moved from WA?

I'm in SA and can do it too.

[5.7ute]

Has he moved from WA?

I'm in SA and can do it too.

He moved over there a couple of weeks ago apparently.
Could you PM me your unlocking prices Biggsy? I can then pass this on & see what the mate wants to do.
Cheers Mick.

[ViciousKnid]

My mom got a used 99 Blazer 4.3 several years ago and I recently tried to pull the tune from it. The pcm is locked and this is her DD.

I told her we'd have to do that but I want to check options. Can't send the pcm anywhere cuz she drives the vehicle every day.
Aside from doing a history on the title. is there a way to see who locked the tune so i can have them unlock it?

Assuming it wasn't a handheld programmer.

[GMPX]

I don't think the 99 4.3L used a LS1 style PCM, make sure you selected the correct type from the drop down list when trying to read it. You need to try it with 'Vortec 98 - 00 PCM' selected.

Cheers,
Ross

[ViciousKnid]

I don't think the 99 4.3L used a LS1 style PCM, make sure you selected the correct type from the drop down list when trying to read it. You need to try it with 'Vortec 98 - 00 PCM' selected.

Cheers,
Ross

Yea, I had done that as well to be sure and it still came back saying the tune was locked.
Then tried again but checked the box "try alt keys". That put the pcm into a security mode and I had to clear the code and wait a few minutes to get it started again.

[GMPX]

Can you please read the Service Number of the PCM (should be a sticker on the case). I don't think the PCM is locked, there is some other issue.

Cheers,
Ross

[ViciousKnid]

Service number is 16263494

[ViciousKnid]

I just realized that I didn't do vortec 98-00 I did LS1 97-98. I bet that's where I screwed up. I'll go make and make sure I clicked the right one. I'll let you know.

Thanks in advance.

[playtoy_18]

I notice your in Oklahoma vicious,so am I.
Not sure where dover is from sallisaw,but I have another programming tool that's never had an issue with locked PCM's.
Granted I've only tried it on 2 PCM's that I was told were "locked" by a tuner,and it downloaded fine.
Let me know if your interested in trying that if you need too.


Just wanted to throw this out,not sure if it's true or not but you guy's mentioned the copyright deal.
I was looking for options to tune a Dodge Neon,any software at all.
New to them I checked out a few neon boards,and asked a couple questions.
Immediately I had PM's telling me not to talking about programming on a Mopar(nicely).
I was told that Mopar is the only car company that extends their patent licensing(or whatever it is) on their programming when it expires after a couple/few years.
GM and Ford don't really practice this,and allow the patent/license to expire.
It was mentioned that Mopar sues the crap out of anyone that breaks their code,not that it hasn't been done but it's not something you post about.
I checked it out a little bit out of curiousity,and did notice that their was only a single custom tuner listed out there for them.
Surprisingly the same tuner's programmed PCM's were also available through Mopar parts desks as factory upgrades.
I also noticed the only aftermarket programmers available for most Mopars are module/piggyback style units.
I haven't looked deeply into this,but still wouldn't mind knowing if the info was somewhat accurate on the copyrighting.

[GMPX]

I just realized that I didn't do vortec 98-00 I did LS1 97-98. I bet that's where I screwed up. I'll go make and make sure I clicked the right one. I'll let you know.

Thanks in advance.
Sounds fair, the Service Number on the PCM certainly matches a 98-00 Vortec PCM.



I also noticed the only aftermarket programmers available for most Mopars are module/piggyback style units.
SCT have Mopar custom tuning software, have done since mid 2008 from memory, so the rumours might not be real.

Cheers,
Ross

[playtoy_18]

It's been a couple years since I tried to find something to program that little car,glad to hear it's possible.