E-85 Help

[vatman02]

i have just switched over to E-85 but my maps seem to be way off can someone help me figure out whats wrong. at part throttle my lm1 shows 8.9-10.0 so this corresponds to the proper afr but my auto ve map shows a correction 1.44. im am doing this set up for auto ve, so the ve table is commanding the proper fueling, at least in this area. it seems the map still thinks stoich is 14.7. :help2:

[5.7ute]

Have you reset the lm-1 to suit E85 with the programmer?
Also dont forget you do not want to command stoich with a COS or trimming will occur.

[vatman02]

first off the lm1 said ethenol lambda 9.0. so that was off it should 9.7-9.8 so i fixed that, then i noticed it was set to output in lambda. i think this is what caused the problem, so i changed it to output in afr. i cant check it now i have to pack, i'm heading out of town for work, i'll be back on friday and try again. i thought that commanding stoich was no longer a problem. thanks for the info.

[vatman02]

so i cant seem to get the scaanner to read the correct afr. i have been tring to create a custom pid but i am getting confused. this is what i have. i'm not sure what to do with the +11. if i have 3.92 volts at stoich 9.7:1 afr and divide them i get 2.47, but this only works for stoich nothing else.

# Innovate LM-1 WBO2
# ========================
*CLC-00-928
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}"
AFR 5.0 11.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}+11"
*CLC-00-929
factor 0.0 2.0 .1 "{CALC.AFR_LM11.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"
*CLC-00-930
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD2}"
AFR 5.0 11.0 .1 "{EXT.AD2}+11"
*CLC-00-931
factor 0.0 2.0 .1 "{CALC.AFR_LM12.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"

[dfe1]

I think your PID needs some work. From what I understand, every LM-1 is a bit different. With mine, readings in the scan program are never anywhere near being correct unless I change the PID to:
*CLC-00-928
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}"
AFR 10.0 20.0 .1 "({EXT.AD1}*1.9936)+9.9832"
*CLC-00-929
factor 0.0 2.0 .1 "{CALC.AFR_LM11.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"
*CLC-00-930
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD2}"
AFR 10.0 20.0 .1 "({EXT.AD1}*1.9936)+9.9832"
*CLC-00-931
factor 0.0 2.0 .1 "{CALC.AFR_LM12.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"

This is with standard-type pump gas. With E-85, the numbers will obviously be a lot different, but the point is, I think you'll have to experiment-- what works for someone else may not work for you. If the numbers in your LM-1's window appear to be correct, experiment with the factors in the PID until the scan data matches.

[vatman02]

thats what i was afraid of. not real good at the whole trial and error thing. but i'll give it a try and see what i come up with. thanks

[5.7ute]

The only way you can really fix this issue is to start fresh with EQ Ratio instead of AFR. This way once the pid is right you will be able to use it on all fuels.
Try this.
Program the lm-1 to output this .
1.25 lamda at 0 volts.
0.75 lamda at 5 volts.
Make a calculated pid that will use the EQ values.
CALC.LM1_EQ (EXT.ADn+7.5)/10
Make a new Ben pid using {CALC.LM1_EQ}/{CALC.EQ}
Once you have made adjustments for ground offsets you should be good to go.

[vatman02]

thanx for the help man, i'm out of town for work again so i can't hook this up and try it, but does this look right ? also what do you mean by ground offset
:cheers:

# ================================================== ============================
# File details
# ------------
#
# This section defines various details about the file format.

*FILE

#Parameter Value Description
#---------- ---------------- ---------------------------------------------------
VERSION 7.1.1 File version
DECSEP . Decimal separator used in this file



# ================================================== ============================
# Units
# -------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on the *UNITS section

*UNITS

#Code System Abbr Description
#-------- ---------- -------- -------------------------------------------------------------

# ================================================== ============================
# Add slot definitions here
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on "SLOT" formats
#
#Units Low High Fmt Expression
#------------ ------------- ------------- ---- --------------------------------------------------------------


CLC-00-983
V 0.00 5.00 .1 "{EXT.AD1}"
LAMBDA 1.25 0.75 .1 "{CALC.LM1_EQ(EXT.AD1+7.5)}/10"
CLC-00-984
factor 0.00 2.0 .3 "{CALC.LM1_EQ}/{CALC.EQ}"


# ================================================== ============================
*PRN - Parameter Reference Numbers
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on the *PRN section
#
#Code PRN SLOT Units System Description
#------------------------- ---- ------------ ---------------- ----------------

------------------------------------------
CALC.LM1_EQ F083 CLC-00-983 "LAMBDA,V" o2-wide "WIDE BAND LM1 EQ"
CALC.BEN_LM1_EQ F084 CLC-00-984 "factor" o2-wide "BASE EFFICIENCY NUMERATOR 1"

[vatman02]

something is wrong with it. it keeps generating an error

[5.7ute]

Sorry my fault. You will need to also make the pid CALC.EQ. 9.8/{GM.AFR}
Or if available on your system use the pid GM.EQUIVRATIO instead of CALC.EQ.

PM sent.

[cme265]

i have just switched over to E-85 but my maps seem to be way off can someone help me figure out whats wrong. at part throttle my lm1 shows 8.9-10.0 so this corresponds to the proper afr but my auto ve map shows a correction 1.44. im am doing this set up for auto ve, so the ve table is commanding the proper fueling, at least in this area. it seems the map still thinks stoich is 14.7. :help2:
might be a dumb question but did you get rid of all the aluminum pieces/parts in your fuel system? it is my understanding e85 and aluminum do not get along very well......

[vatman02]

might be a dumb question but did you get rid of all the aluminum pieces/parts in your fuel system? it is my understanding e85 and aluminum do not get along very well......

as far as i know it is the methanol that is the real problem. there is a shop that claims to have been converting vehicles for several years, without changing any parts, with no problems. i keep reading about the pros and cons. those that are for it and those against. i needed to find out for myself. i will keep everyone posted on how it goes. this is my fisrt tank of it. i will tell you this, we just did a dyno day and there was a guy that has the same mods as i do with 1 more pound of boost, and he made 17 less hp and 50 less torque. i believe he doesn't tune his own car, i do. also i was running real lean, 13:1 in the upper rpm. max power is at 8.5:1. this was with no knock at all. so a fuel system upgrade is in order. my 42# injectors saw a duty cycle of 227%. so i am sure there is still more power to be had. i didn't want to push the tuneing any further either, i am still on the stock short block.

no i did not remove or change anything from what i was running previously. so we will see what happens. but i will upgrading the fuel system soon, so i will be sure to make sure the new stuff is compatable

[yellowC6ohio]

The only way you can really fix this issue is to start fresh with EQ Ratio instead of AFR. This way once the pid is right you will be able to use it on all fuels.
Try this.
Program the lm-1 to output this .
1.25 lamda at 0 volts.
0.75 lamda at 5 volts.
Make a calculated pid that will use the EQ values.
CALC.LM1_EQ (EXT.ADn+7.5)/10
Make a new Ben pid using {CALC.LM1_EQ}/{CALC.EQ}
Once you have made adjustments for ground offsets you should be good to go.


are you saying (voltage + 7.5)/10 will give you the EQ Ratio?
because i'm not getting the right answers.

and if this is going to be used for all fuels i think it's going to need altered because e85 max power rich is lambda .7143 Lambda, 1.4 EQ Ratio.

[5.7ute]

are you saying (voltage + 7.5)/10 will give you the EQ Ratio?
because i'm not getting the right answers.

and if this is going to be used for all fuels i think it's going to need altered because e85 max power rich is lambda .7143 Lambda, 1.4 EQ Ratio.

Being more than 3000 miles from e85 fuel made this a bit hard for me to test. The point of the exercise was to get the main train of thought away from AFR to EQ ratio as one must do when using different fuels. The maths for the pid work out so there shouldnt have been a problem there. As for the E85 needing an EQ of 1.4 for max power this is something else I was not aware of. In PM,s Vatman informed me that it was more around 1.25 EQ. Hopefully now he has got his truck running & been on the dyno he can tell us where he found peak power under boost.
Cheers Mick

[vatman02]

Being more than 3000 miles from e85 fuel made this a bit hard for me to test. The point of the exercise was to get the main train of thought away from AFR to EQ ratio as one must do when using different fuels. The maths for the pid work out so there shouldnt have been a problem there. As for the E85 needing an EQ of 1.4 for max power this is something else I was not aware of. In PM,s Vatman informed me that it was more around 1.25 EQ. Hopefully now he has got his truck running & been on the dyno he can tell us where he found peak power under boost.
Cheers Mick

Fuel ........................ AFRst ........ FARst ....... Equivalence Ratio ... Lambda
Gas stoich ................ 14.7 .......... 0.068 ................ 1 ................... 1
Gas max power rich .... 12.5 .......... 0.08 ................. 1.176 .............. 0.8503
Gas max power lean .... 13.23 ........ 0.0755 .............. 1.111 ............. 0.900
E85 stoich .................. 9.765 ....... 0.10235 ............ 1 ................... 1
E85 max power rich ...... 6.975 ....... 0.1434 .............. 1.40 ............... 0.7143
E85 max power lean ..... 8.4687 ...... 0.118 ............... 1.153 .............. 0.8673
E100 stoich ................ 9.0078 ...... 0.111 ............... 1 .................... 1
E100 max power rich .... 6.429 ........ 0.155 .............. 1.4 .................. 0.714
E100 max power lean .... 7.8 .... ...... 0.128 .............. 1.15 ................ 0.870

I set mine up for max power lean and run it at 1.16. at WOT. Some of the research I have done says that PE is equal to gas, so I errored on the side of fuel economy. I did get to the dyno. My first time out I was running a Walboro 255 and 42# injectors and was running at 14:1 AFR at WOT. I made several atempts to get more fuel but didn't have enough pump or injector. I did however make a peak of 642 rwhp and 593 rwtq at 5800 rpm and 8#'s of boost, sae corrected at 1.21 WITH NO KR. I recently got a new pump set up, dual intanks, and bigger injectors, 79#'s. I went back to the dyno last month. I changed the blower filter to a bigger one and the WOT timing to 26* and made 723 rwhp and 654 rwtq at 5950 rpm and 10#'s of boost, with an EQ ratio of 1.19, about 8.2 AFR. I didn't make any changes to fueling because I felt after running at 14:1 AFR with no KR there was no need to add more fuel. I've been dealing with a vacuum leak but I'm hoping to get it worked out by the 5th for another dyno day, so I may be able to do some tweaking to the fuel. I'll post up the reults.

[kbracing96]

This is interesting, I just filled up with my second tank of E85 and am working out the tune. I already maxed my 42 lbs/hr injectors at 10lbs and 5200 rpm on it. I got a set of 60's going in it this week and I added a M15 nozzle to my M10 on my meth injection. Plan to hit the track with it next weekend and run some where around 14 lbs of boost and 20-22* of timing.:) Should be fun!

[vatman02]

One thing I didn't mention. I started off with a tune from the shop that sold me the procharger, all I used from it was the high octane spark table. That is what I used for my first dyno run. My dyno sheet was all over the place below 4400 rpm, so I took it home and made some adjustments to the areas below 4400 rpm. When I went back for the second time I had picked up 200 rwtq and 180 rwhp at 4400 rpm and smoothed out the whole curve. I'm not sure if the origanal tune I got was that far off or if the E-85 just needed the timing to be higher. The shop told me it was the tune they use for all their cars with mods similar to mine. Here is a link to the before and after dyno graphs http://www.fquick.com/garages/Pontiac/Trans_Am_WS6/2002/9712/ I can't wait to get it the track again. I had some really bad runs before, my best was 13.2 @ 112. Thats a bit slow for 643 rwhp.

[5.7ute]

Keep us posted John. What weight does your truck come to on the scales?

[kbracing96]

Keep us posted John. What weight does your truck come to on the scales?

If your talking about my truck, It weights about 5450 with me in it :)

[yellowC6ohio]

i have been working hard on some of the math and i think i may have the formula to show e85 AFR.
setting up the wideband using the
.88333 V at 5 AFR
4.21667 V at 15 AFR

the formula i came up with is

(Voltage * 2.999994000012) + 2.3500152999694

let me know if you guys agree with my findings.

[vatman02]

In PM,s Vatman informed me that it was more around 1.25 EQ. Hopefully now he has got his truck running & been on the dyno he can tell us where he found peak power under boost.
Cheers Mick

Hey Mick, although I am now useing E-85 in my truck, the HP #'s are for my TA. It is my test mule now that I have a forged short block sitting in the garage. I got my intake manifold put back together and on the car. I found a little crack in it. That may explain my lean issues. I put some gasket sealer on it. I hope it holds. The actual #'s should be a little higher, since I increased the porting on the intake and removed the MAF, oh and tightened the blower belt, hoping it wont slip this time.

[vatman02]

are you saying (voltage + 7.5)/10 will give you the EQ Ratio?
because i'm not getting the right answers.

and if this is going to be used for all fuels i think it's going to need altered because e85 max power rich is lambda .7143 Lambda, 1.4 EQ Ratio.
I came up with this last night to read the higher EQ. It's my fist CALC.PID so you might want check it.

Set the LM1 to
.50 Lambda @ 0V
1.50 Lambda @ 5V
(EXT.AD*+2.5)/5