Tuning for GM's e16a ECM?

[bc3tech]

Hey guys, I saw that you all are setting some pretty productive sights on GM's ecotec platform and wanted to inquire if you've thought about developing some tuning for the e16a ECM that was used on the 2.2L engines from 2003-2006 in the Ion, G5, and Cobalt (Delta platform)

A group of supporters have been working with various tuning companies to help whoever out that wishes to tackle this elusive ECM, and there are nearly 50 of us with cash-in-hand for the tuning suite that comes out with it. Warranties are expiring, and many of us are sick of dealing with piggyback tuning on our boosted platforms.

Please PM me if you'd like any more information. Thank you!:cheers:

[IonFeright]

tuning Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase!!!

[REDFOCZ]

Some tuning for the 2.2's would be nice to see. :D There are alot of them out there that want boost.

[mlcroy20]

I'll name my first born after the company who get's us 2.2 Cobalts some tuning!!!! :notacrook:

[bc3tech]

I'll name my first born after the company who get's us 2.2 Cobalts some tuning!!!! :notacrook:
lol rock on! "effy" FTW!

[macca_779]

Ross and Paul are busy enough filling the evolutionary demands for their current line of supported controllers. I just pray every day that standalone capability for their current calibrations is just around the corner.

[ac66bronco]

yeah the e16a always gets the short end of the stick im used to getting bent over.


eh autronic or haltec or tec3 here i come

[HackAbuse]

I beg of you. Please support the e16a :bawl:

:master: :master:

[Sw4y1313]

Honestly i would be your first customer if you guys had released support for the e16a. I've been boosted since january and plan on going for some high hp numbers. I would like to have the ability to use the EFILive software to tune the car, instead of a piggyback'ed secondary injection setup i have to run now.

My car is a 06 Chevy Cobalt 2.2, with a fully forged motor and procharger on its way. Please help me meet my 400whp power goal!

[Novajoe]

Right now I'm in the process of supercharging my 2.2 with an m62. Would love to have more than piggyback tuning for it. Plus I need a way to tune my 4T45E.

[GMPX]

Guys, I actually have an E16a here (and some of the other PCM's used on these engines over the years), from what I have seen in this post and on various board, though you want tuning, you also want to start running big boost numbers etc, so next comes the custom OS requests etc.

Sorry to say but I don't think we will be supporting these anytime soon. The structure and concept of these PCM's is quite odd.

Cheers,
Ross

[bc3tech]

Guys, I actually have an E16a here (and some of the other PCM's used on these engines over the years), from what I have seen in this post and on various board, though you want tuning, you also want to start running big boost numbers etc, so next comes the custom OS requests etc.

Sorry to say but I don't think we will be supporting these anytime soon. The structure and concept of these PCM's is quite odd.

Cheers,
Ross
i honestly doubt you'll get any custom OS requests.. at this point nothing we'd like to be able to do requires anything more than modifying the fuel delivery and ignition parameters to accomodate timing add/remove and fuel add/remove in conjunction w/ larger injectors. i haven't seen a single build of a 2.2 where anything else would have been desired. for god's sakes i'm running an Aeromotive DFMU to tune an additional fuel pump for 10psi for fuel delivery addition only.

those of us doing large builds have already put standalones on the car and will likely continue to do so. a reliable form of tuning fit for a daily driver that's been modded outside factory limits (8-12psi is what most of us are looking at) is all we're asking for.

oh well - i figured it was worth a shot since y'all looked like you were gonna support the gamut of GM ECMs. maybe once you see this poll rise up to 30-50+ (as it has on other tuning vendors' sites) you'll change your mind.

[ub3rn00ber]

As soon as tuning comes out ill buy it.

[bc3tech]

30hr later... 10 confirmed buyers. not bad for a saturn. :lol: gotta say it's one of the best group buys i've seen, hehe.

[ScarabEpic22]

Guess what guys, the Vortec I6 guys feel your pain. We had to wait a LONG time (as in EFILive supported the 4.2L I6 LL8 motor in early 06, they came out mid 01) to get diddly squat, so I know where you guys are coming from. At least you guys can run boost, the second we slap a supercharger/turbo on we get Reduced Engine Power mode (yay 30mph). :( And we still dont have COS, and highly doubt we ever will.

[GMPX]

Just to put it in to perspective, it takes between 1 month - 3 months to add support (even preliminary) for a whole new PCM type assuming everything goes well. Now assume myself and Paul were contractors we'd charge maybe $100 per hour x 3 months. This is the reality of it, time is money which unfortunately 30 sales can't justify.

There is one plus for the E16 from my perspective, it uses a 68332 variant CPU, this means it might even share some code with the other GM controllers. I have always wondered what the heck is the Atmel chip on the board?

These are the 3 ECM's I have here for that engine. As you can see, we did have evaluated these before.

Cheers,
Ross

P.S - The TCM might already be supported on some of these? I am not sure.

[bc3tech]

Atmel is a company that makes EEPROM chips, if that helps at all *shrug*

oh well, again, figured it was worth a shot. SCT has already developed a flash-tune for the 2.2 in the Garrett turbo kit for 2.2 cobalts - they just haven't confirmed they're going to expand their efforts to a user-driven programmer.

[joecar]

In addition to EEPROM's, Atmel also do make other automotive asic's, like CAN devices and FPGA's, so it's hard to tell without a part no.

[durkA]

id buy it

[SMP]

count me in!

I think it is a great idea...~!

[bc3tech]

psh SMP u shoulda said who you are & what you're doing ;)

[SMP]

psh SMP u shoulda said who you are & what you're doing ;)

LOL! ok here is the thing...i personally will use EFI Live over HP Tuners for many reasons but the main reason is the no BS rule! If anyone can get tuning for these ecm's it is going to be EFILive i am sure of that...but all in all i use EFILive in our shop for all the GM High end cars!

Also i know that there is allot...and i mean allot of 2.2L guys looking for tuning as there is Turbo kits SC Kits (I personally designed a kit for the 2.2L cars using a procharger) and nitrous junkies!

Actually allot more cars then EFIlive would imagine....

But if i had the resources and if you guys could do the basic stuff...
Governer table
Timing table
fuel table...etc then i am sure these guys will be happy i turn away more business because there is no tuning for the 2.2L guys

anyways thanks for listening!

[IonNinja]

this sucks, I went through the pain of registering just to find out we've been shot down already! man I can't believe there is nobody willing to dip into this market!

jeez even the Cobalts can't bring us anything...I'm itching to throw some cams into this car and I can't without going standalone!

[Tre-Cool]

this sucks, I went through the pain of registering just to find out we've been shot down already! man I can't believe there is nobody willing to dip into this market!

jeez even the Cobalts can't bring us anything...I'm itching to throw some cams into this car and I can't without going standalone!
I dont think its a matter of the efilive guys not wanting to dip into the area, its more the fact they have there plates full with the development of the v2 hardware and associated V8 software release.

[wizetekie]

count me in :cheers: :notacrook:

[bc3tech]

I dont think its a matter of the efilive guys not wanting to dip into the area, its more the fact they have there plates full with the development of the v2 hardware and associated V8 software release.
hey i personally don't really care when it's done.

[bc3tech]

*yawn* keeping this at the forefront in case the EFI guys get a wild hair and want to help some 2.2Ls go nuts.

[dvx]

Any chance this is in the works? Alot of people are migrating to 4 cylinders these days. I just picked up an 07 G5 for a DD.

[GMPX]

Well guys, I would assume on the various boards you tried to rally up as many people to vote in the poll to sway the vote?......for a grand total of 17 Yes's. Add a zero it we might consider it :angel_innocent:

You can't really expect a company such as EFILive, HPT, JET, TunerCat or whoever to invest what could be between 1 to 3 months development time to add support for something like the E16a for what appears to me to be a very small market 'compared' to other potential untapped or on going markets.
Yes 4 cylinder interest is growing, those with later models can rejoice that GM switched over to the E67 ECM for them.

dvx, I am pretty sure the 2007 G5 does not use one of these E16a ECM's anyway.

Cheers,
Ross

[bc3tech]

Well guys, I would assume on the various boards you tried to rally up as many people to vote in the poll to sway the vote?......for a grand total of 17 Yes's. Add a zero it we might consider it :angel_innocent:

You can't really expect a company such as EFILive, HPT, JET, TunerCat or whoever to invest what could be between 1 to 3 months development time to add support for something like the E16a for what appears to me to be a very small market 'compared' to other potential untapped or on going markets.
Yes 4 cylinder interest is growing, those with later models can rejoice that GM switched over to the E67 ECM for them.

dvx, I am pretty sure the 2007 G5 does not use one of these E16a ECM's anyway.

Cheers,
Ross
"only" 17 ppl voted here because the majority have already been to 3 or 4 OTHER places trying to get support. Diablo and HPT yielded 50+ votes. and those are just the people that participate in internet forums.

what is your process for analyzing the "potential" of other untapped markets? have a look at how many Ion and Cobalt 2.2 owners are trying to turbo / supercharge their rides and i think you'll see you'd have quite the niche. Let alone companies like SpeedMafia (http://www.speedmafia.com) and Alpine Developments (http://www.alpine-developments.us) which have procharger and turbo kits (respectively) but no really good way to tune 'cept for the SMT6 piggy. team up w/ them and you could have a huge market right there.

as far as whether or not the '07 G5 uses the e16, pretty easy to tell just by looking at it. Does the ECM under the hood (right in front of the driver's side) have Three big black connectors on it, or just one? one = e16a.

[TAQuickness]

+1 - I'm more on the side of, if EFILive supports it, it's on my potential next vehicle list. I'm in the market for something with less than 500 rwhp and more fuel effecient than my truck (which happens to not be on the radar either).

[bc3tech]

... I'm in the market for something with less than 500 rwhp and more fuel effecient than my truck ...
i'm sure a Prius would fit those requirements..... or a Geo metro for that matter :D

[TAQuickness]

Missed the bit about EFILive support ;)

[dvx]

How do I find out what ECU is in my 07 G5?

[GMPX]

what is your process for analyzing the "potential" of other untapped markets? have a look at how many Ion and Cobalt 2.2 owners are trying to turbo / supercharge their rides and i think you'll see you'd have quite the niche.

And that right there is the very reason developers stay away. It's not enough to add support then majority of people also want to be able to run boost on these engines to very high levels. I am assuming the E16a doesn't support massive boost (like most GM ECM's), this means further 'expected' development.

McDonalds might crack in to an untapped market with a pork burger, meanwhile they are still happily serving out a bunch of Big Macs.

E16a / E37 shown below for reference..

Cheers,
Ross

[dvx]

Hmmm. Mine appears to be the E37. Guess I'm SOL for the time being. Not a big deal, I just bought it for gas mileage and to run around in. I can't usually leave anything alone tho.

[SMP]

ross,
quick question, have you guys looked into tuning the E16A? just wanted to see if the effort was even attempted?

my other question is, what kind of user base would you need to make it happen? what kind of audience makes it attractive to lets say an EFIlive to help support and roll out and implement the platform based on tuning capabilities?

i ask these questions cause i get calls every day and they go something like this...

First the customer is going to see if there is any tuning before modding...correct?

second, if there is tuning who is it with (hp tuners, efilive,...etc)

third, if there is tuning then parts are bought to accommodate higher hp numbers...

where here is the bottle neck, these guys want to do mods besides the exhaust and cold air intake, there is turbo, and supercharger kits that fit like a glove from companies like Garrett and alpine and then you have your weekend gearheads...but that being said it is hard to justify spending 3k+ with no tuning...i personally have turned away about 300 people alone just on my supercharger kit because of tuning, as a shop i do everything in my power to work with them and try to explain there is stand alones, piggy backs...etc and i can almost bet everyone says...no i want a hptuners or efilive...etc

so as you can probably guess i say, well there is not tuning at this time and i pretty much get hung up on?

so if it is something that is not going to be rolled out then thats fine just wanted to share some information on the issues at hand...the crowd is there to sell the product but why even save money for performance parts if there is no tuning...as you know you can have the sweetest setup via turbo or sc but if you don't have tuning your pissing your money into the wind?

i actually talked to a guy that was like, yeah tuning for the e16a is a snap then i called a month later and he was like uummm yeah we not going to be rolling it out?

i am just wondering what makes the e16a so untouchable? is it either the company like hp tuners and efilive not smart enought to tackle something like the e16a? hell if i had the hardware and software i would do it for fun...again if i had the tools and the know how?

but if it doesnt happen then its all good no biggie here just wanted to get your guys thoughts and feelings about the unbreakable e16a?

[GMPX]

ross,
quick question, have you guys looked into tuning the E16A? just wanted to see if the effort was even attempted?
Yes, I spent a day doing the usual assesments we would do for a new ECM type, this was in 2007.


my other question is, what kind of user base would you need to make it happen? what kind of audience makes it attractive to lets say an EFIlive to help support and roll out and implement the platform based on tuning capabilities?
That is not an exact science. For example, lets say GM do a new version of the popular E38 and it carries over on to all the existing platforms that use the E38 (there is MANY), then we pretty much are bound to support it.
With the E16a, it's not a Delphi controller, they are made by Motorola, so it's pretty much starting from scratch as far as the R&D goes. Next problem, it was only used for 2 years, before that was another version of the E16a (don't know the 'E' number of it). So it would be expected that would have to be supported as well, so now we are at two ECM types for a 4 year run that might sell 1 or 100 streams.


i ask these questions cause i get calls every day and they go something like this...

First the customer is going to see if there is any tuning before modding...correct?

second, if there is tuning who is it with (hp tuners, efilive,...etc)

third, if there is tuning then parts are bought to accommodate higher hp numbers...
Why couldn't you consider a Motec or something like that?


i actually talked to a guy that was like, yeah tuning for the e16a is a snap then i called a month later and he was like uummm yeah we not going to be rolling it out?
If it was easy then all the tuning packages would support it, catch 22.


i am just wondering what makes the e16a so untouchable? is it either the company like hp tuners and efilive not smart enought to tackle something like the e16a? hell if i had the hardware and software i would do it for fun...again if i had the tools and the know how?
I'm sure it's the same for them, the known R&D input (which can only be measured by $$) might be a total waste of time.
Everything is touchable, the E16a has no encryption or nasties like that, what it has against it is -
1 - Not made by Delphi
2 - Short life span
3 - Model coverage very limited
4 - 90% of people tuning it will want custom OS's written for boost.

Cheers,
Ross

[SMP]

Yes, I spent a day doing the usual assesments we would do for a new ECM type, this was in 2007.


That is not an exact science. For example, lets say GM do a new version of the popular E38 and it carries over on to all the existing platforms that use the E38 (there is MANY), then we pretty much are bound to support it.
With the E16a, it's not a Delphi controller, they are made by Motorola, so it's pretty much starting from scratch as far as the R&D goes. Next problem, it was only used for 2 years, before that was another version of the E16a (don't know the 'E' number of it). So it would be expected that would have to be supported as well, so now we are at two ECM types for a 4 year run that might sell 1 or 100 streams.


Why couldn't you consider a Motec or something like that?


If it was easy then all the tuning packages would support it, catch 22.


I'm sure it's the same for them, the known R&D input (which can only be measured by $$) might be a total waste of time.
Everything is touchable, the E16a has no encryption or nasties like that, what it has against it is -
1 - Not made by Delphi
2 - Short life span
3 - Model coverage very limited
4 - 90% of people tuning it will want custom OS's written for boost.

Cheers,
Ross

Gotcha, thank you for your time...and responding to this post....it was very informative and interesting. where can i find more information on the Motec or is there a specific model/design?

[GMPX]

Gotcha, thank you for your time...and responding to this post....it was very informative and interesting. where can i find more information on the Motec or is there a specific model/design?

Try - http://www.motec.com

They are just one option, there is many other aftermarket ECU's out there. They will all want to know what crank / cam signals your engine uses, that I am not sure of.

Cheers,
Ross

[rsicard]

Ross: I have a general question regarding EFI. For the GM PCm's, what approximate percentage is Speed Density Based and how much for MAF based calculations? I have seen EFI systems without MAP sensors and only MAF sensors for measuring air flow. If you can, please write an overview of each of these systems PLEASE. Thanks.

[bc3tech]

Missed the bit about EFILive support ;)
then have a look at the saturn ion 2.4L ecotec, 2.0L supercharged (redline) or cobalt flavors of the same design. all supported by EFILive and small 4cyls w/ great potential (power-wise) and gas-sippers. likewise my 3.6L v6 Aura w/ a 6spd AT gets 35mpg on the highway :D and also supported by EFIlive