NE1: WTF Scanner keeps asking for more Fuel

[Chalky]

I have been trying to get a decent BEN Map.

I installed stock VE Table and went out fileld in BEN Map, came back and did a paste/multiply into my VE Table. Most changes were within the 1.04-1.06 range. Loaded tun, went back out and BEN Map was now calling for anywhere from 1.14-1.28.

Not sure what is going on. I have checked everything from teh 02 to the wiring for V2 and my SM-AFR.

Also had an issue with BEN Map values performing wrong multiplication when updating VE Table.

Tech support, Hello?

[joecar]

G'day Chalky...

Some things to check:
- are you using EQ or AFR units and NOT Lambda...?
- are you using the right calc pid for your WB...?
- are your MAP units the same in the scantool and the tunetool...?

:cheers:

[Chalky]

G'day Chalky...

Some things to check:
- are you using EQ or AFR units and NOT Lambda...?
- are you using the right calc pid for your WB...?
- are your MAP units the same in the scantool and the tunetool...?

:cheers:

Joe:

G'day to you mate:

Joe using same pids as I have always used and that have worked in the past for PLX SM-AFR. AFR in a cruise state seems to be fine, a tad rich but so is my CFOL table.

I use AFR when doing working with fuel calc. it's easier for me as I can relate to AfR. :) Lambda and EQ require me to think to much.

I am getting ready tos tep out and have soem dinner but will look at these parameters when i get back and let you know what I find.

what has me puzzled is the fact that I take my BeN cell values and paste/multply into my VE table and the next BEn Map asks for even more fuel than the time before.

[joecar]

...what has me puzzled is the fact that I take my BeN cell values and paste/multply into my VE table and the next BEn Map asks for even more fuel than the time before.This has me thinking that something is "upside-down"...

Are you losing fuel pressure...?

[mr.prick]

if you keep adding fuel and you are still getting high BENs
you might have a bad wideband sensor.
this happened to me , and i kept getting lean spikes in the
upper kPa areas and hard throttle , but in lower kPa and moderate throttle
i had normal BENs.

also after restarting your IAT temp will be high.
filter out IAT above 96*F and see if that helps.

[Tordne]

Given that you have the RoadRunner you could just do a simple stationary test.

With the car idling just raise and lower the VE table in the idle region and watch the resulting WBO2 AFR and also the calculated BEN figure. As you lower the VE the WB should show leaner and the BEN should increase. As you raise it the WB should go rich and the BEN lower.

[Chalky]

This has me thinking that something is "upside-down"...

Are you losing fuel pressure...?

Joe:

I did check it @ idle. My guage shows 60 psi @ idle. No way to check it at speed.

[Chalky]

Given that you have the RoadRunner you could just do a simple stationary test.

With the car idling just raise and lower the VE table in the idle region and watch the resulting WBO2 AFR and also the calculated BEN figure. As you lower the VE the WB should show leaner and the BEN should increase. As you raise it the WB should go rich and the BEN lower.

Andrew:

I bumped my VE table by 15% and BEN was still adding fuel. The moe fuel I add, teh more it commands.

If i go to CL, the same VE table that I added 15% to shows lower FTC as rich and high rpm/HIGH KPA cells need a bit of fuel. I would expect this out of a modified car.

[joecar]

Possibilities:
- IFR may not be correct.
- airleak.
- fuel pressure dropping.

You need the extension hose for the fuel pressure gauge; and try to route the hose to the left rear corner of the hood (my F-body has a gap that I can squeeze the hose thru and tie the guage to the wiper arm using a nylon ziptie... :D ...it's only temporary...; I don't know how you would do this on a Y-body, but I imagine it's do-able)

[Chalky]

Possibilities:
- IFR may not be correct.
- airleak.
- fuel pressure dropping.

You need the extension hose for the fuel pressure guage; and try to route the hose to the left rear corner of the hood (my F-body has a gap that I can squeeze the hose thru and tie the guage to the wiper arm using a nylon ziptie... :D ...it's only temporary...; I don't know how you would do this on a Y-body, but I imagine it's do-able)

I thought air leak to and have had the intake on and off more than I care to talk about.

I have an extended warranty and a good service writer I work with. Car is going in Monday for a diagnosis. Maybe they can find something.

[Chalky]

if you keep adding fuel and you are still getting high BENs
you might have a bad wideband sensor.
this happened to me , and i kept getting lean spikes in the
upper kPa areas and hard throttle , but in lower kPa and moderate throttle
i had normal BENs.

also after restarting your IAT temp will be high.
filter out IAT above 96*F and see if that helps.

Not sure how high IAT's make the car go lean. I understand the principle but am not aware of a table or factors that make this happen.

[mr.prick]

Not sure how high IAT's make the car go lean. I understand the principle but am not aware of a table or factors that make this happen.
this is probably not your problem,
if you are running lean at idle or low thottle the car will sound choppy
and if you are rich it make a belching sound.
either way you will know with out the wideband showing you if you listen.
post a screen shot of your BEN map or your wideband data log.
witch WB are you using?

[Chalky]

this is probably not your problem,
if you are running lean at idle or low thottle the car will sound choppy
and if you are rich it make a belching sound.
either way you will know with out the wideband showing you if you listen.
post a screen shot of your BEN map or your wideband data log.
witch WB are you using?

Using PLX SM-AFR

Car does seem lean @ idle. I used Bi-DI @ idle last week and car responded nicely to 11:1 2 Idle. My first thought was a vacuum leak but i have eliminated that option Idle cell in VE Table has not changed from before mods and TP% @ idle is as high or higher than before.

Below are the tun and logs.

before Ben is a basic VE table close to stock.
After BEN is with the log 0000BEN applied.
After BEN Tun is self-explanatory
The BEN2 Log was not applied but shows the increased rquest fro additional fuel after the last BEN was applied. I would have expected this last BeN MAp values to get closer to 1.00 not farther away.

[mr.prick]

has this happened all the sudden out of the blue?
how old is your WB?
maybe this thread will help.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=6159
like i said if you`re adding fuel and it is still lean from what i`ve seen it is
most likely a bad WB sensor.
also you don`t seem to have much KR to match the leanness that you`re seeing.
hope this helps.

[Chalky]

has this happened all the sudden out of the blue?
how old is your WB?
maybe this thread will help.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=6159
like i said if you`re adding fuel and it is still lean from what i`ve seen it is
most likely a bad WB sensor.
also you don`t seem to have much KR to match the leanness that you`re seeing.
hope this helps.

WB and sensor are brand new. I have two of each and per pLX, they both check out oK via their testing methods.

yes, this is a recent problem, within the last couple of weeks.

[TAQuickness]

verify your BEN pid is actual/commanded. Also make sure the scan tool is displaying average values on the map - not min or max.

[mr.prick]

you have some pretty wild swings between min/max,
you have multiple WBs installed or you mean you have extras?
if you are sure it`s not your WB
then maybe you have a loose fuel line
at the fuel pump? (it will stumble under throttle)
but your PSI at idle looks good so this is probably not it.
but,
1 this is a new problem
2 you have wild swings between min/max AFR reading (with my filter)
3 no drastic KR readings to coincide with leanness
4 your BENs don`t change even though you`re adding fuel
5 your WB and v1/v2 where setup and working properly in the past.
make me say it is most likely your WB sensor. (not controller)
i`d hate for you to spend $50-$60 on a new sensor because of me but
it is a cheap way to eliminate this possibility unless you are positive that
this is not your problem.

[joecar]

In 758JVD_0000BEN.efi:
- TP never goes to zero.
- MAP does not seem right.
- WB does not seem right (as mr.prick said).

[Chalky]

you have some pretty wild swings between min/max,
you have multiple WBs installed or you mean you have extras?
if you are sure it`s not your B
then maybe you have a loose fuel line
at the fuel pump? (it will stumble under throttle)
but your PSI at idle looks good so this is probably not it.
but,
1 this is a new problem
2 you have wild swings between min/max AFR reading (with my filter)
3 no drastic KR readings to coincide with leanness
4 your Ben's don`t change even though you`re adding fuel
5 your WB and v1/v2 where setup and working properly in the past.
make me say it is most likely your WB sensor. (not controller)
i`d hate for you to spend $50-$60 on a new sensor because of me but
it is a cheap way to eliminate this possibility unless you are positive that
this is not your problem.

I have two wB02 sensor and two SM-AFR's from PLX but I only use one at a time. They both show similar results. (Maybe they are both bad, but they test out OK per PLX test guidelines.

I just re-installed the latest eFILive. I am going to give it one more try today. If it fails, I am going to CL and let Chevy figure it out.

I have a friend with V1. I may run over to his house and do some logging with his unit.

Nothing should be this difficult.

IS there a way within EFILive to verify WB02 calibration? With PLX, they provide two different voltages to chck the unit in free air and with teh 02 unhooked.

[mr.prick]

is there a noticeable problem , does the car not feel right
or is it just in the logging?
if you have a fuel pressure gauge at the rail see what you got
with a bit of RPM , maybe your losing voltage to the pump.
lOL maybe try a 3rd WB. (separate sensor and controller)
if you are lean the car should eventually throw a code.
(if you configure your v2 to not clear DTC code on reflash)
i don`t know how the PLX works but if it has a gauge or a
separate program installed on your PC
open it along side of the v2 and you can watch both.
but if it is your WB they will be in sync so this is only good
if there is a problem or error with the 2 syncing up.

[Chalky]

It all started doing a Ben map to dial in my VE table. my first pass with the Ben map was a normal adjustment 1 +/- 5%. I made the adjustments, went out to do a follow-up BEN and the next beN was showing lean again by 2 least 5% again. i had never observed this before. In my experience doing AutoVE, the changes are smaller with each pass up to a point when you start to overcompensate with changes. This was complicated by an intake change to a FAST90 and new LS2 TB. The intake did have a vacuum leak which i did find eventually along with caressing my new intake to get it to seal properly.

I just did another review of my EFILive install and spent about 45 minutes driving and creating another BEN Map. This one looks pretty good. I plan to do some extended driving tomorrow and see what the next BEN map looks like.

I can almost assure you that the error was mine. I am also hoping the problem is resolved. I'll update tomorrow.

[mr.prick]

so this wasn`t "out of the blue"?
you had done some mods then this happened?!

[Chalky]

Well kind of. I hadn't used the software/hardware in a couple of weeks prior to the intake upgrade. I was almost positive that I had a vacuum leak and I felt certain that was skewing my AFR's lean and creating a situation where the car was constantly lean.

The Fast90 has a reputation of not sealing properly. A lean condition and an intake that has a reputation for poor sealing made sense to me.

[mr.prick]

turn on your ignition key without starting your engine
and see what your your kPa reading is.
it should match your WOT kPa number.
this is a way to kinda see if you have a leak.
also i don`t remember you saying you had installed an intake prior to this. ;)
BTW an intake leak or an exhaust leak would make things a little wacky. :bash:

[Chalky]

Exhaust was off in May for a new clutch as well.

FWIW, i have never been that happy with the idle anyway. it has always been a sore spot with me even before the intake change.

[Chalky]

And I cannot tell you why. Did two BEN Maps since yesterday and everything is lining up very nicely.

Possible reasons; Many:

Most likely a wiring issue with my SM-AFR.
A spreadsheet error or a copy/paste error.

A big thanks for the input from everyone. Sometimes the feedback just makes you think! :)