Strange numbers in knock table

[louis]

I made a table for knock with my GM knock pid and it only shows all 0.00. I used the maps supplied in the software for table 5913 and 5914 and get numbers that look like they are the amout of grams it would like to see in the table in the advanced table? In the retarded table they are all 0.00

I was expecting numbers like 1.0, 3.5 for knock and to subtract those values from the tables but when almost all in log are 33.0 29.0 27.2 it really looks like it is telling me this is the grams it is using not the amount of knock?

Thanks for any help

Louis

[louis]

I was expecting to see 1.0, 3.5 etc not grams

[joecar]

Louis,

Each cell of that map is Spark Avdance in degrees, the rows are indexed by engine speed in RPM, the cols are indexed by cylinder air mass in grams/cylinder (the row/col title/units has a light blue background stripe);

That map mirrors the spark advance tables B5913 and B5914;

that map is correct, each cell of that map (and those tables) is the commanded ignition timing (degrees) before any "modifiers" subtract/add from/to it.

Cheers,
Joe

:cheers:

[louis]

Hello and thank you for your reply.

I am aware what this uses in the column and rows but my question is first do I use these figures to add them into the B5913-B5914 yables and replace the figures that are there?
Second is I was expecting modifiers to be showing here so I can correct those tables by subtract/add from/to it.

I made a gm knock table and was assuming this would give me the modifiers if the table above did not but all I got in that gm knock table were all 0.00. I looked everywhere for an example of this to make sure I have the right data but could not find anywhere.

The pids I used for my gm knock were data = gm knock
column =airflow grams/cyl-speed density and row=rpm

PLease explain how I am suppose to see the modifiers if this is wrong.

Thank you for your time

Louis

[gto_in_nc]

Louis, make an exact copy of the map you posted above except replace the data PID with GM.KR instead of DYNCYLAIR_DMA and you should get (assuming you have GM.KR selected for logging in F7) a map that gives you a window into where in the spark table you are seeing knock retard.

I would be reluctant, though, to simply use that as a modifier because knock isn't a consistent thing. Instead, I'd look at each occurance of KR and see what was happening at that specific moment.

[joecar]

The map for KR (gram/cyl vs rpm) is what you subtract from B5913, B5914
(assuming your AFR at those points was suitably rich; if it's lean, fix it);

Turn off the AutoVE log filter;

On the KR map, check which button is pressed:
- average (x with bar above it)
- minimum (down arrow)
- maximum (up arrow)

Press the maximum button and see if the map shows non-zero KR;

If KR is still zero (have you turned off the log filter...?), then zero knock must have been "sensed".

To log the spark modifiers, you have to log some combination of the pids whose names start with "EST_" (as in Electronic Spark Timing").

Cheers
Joe
:cheers:

[louis]

I see all 0s, no filters are on and when I hit show min or max values still zeros. I have avg on and these are table fields

data=retard due to knock
column=airflow gms/cyl
row=rpm

The only pid I see that would relate to this with est in it is est_krb_dma estimated burst knock retard. Not sure if I should be using this or gm-kr retard due to knock?

Thanks for all the help gentlemen

Louis

[gto_in_nc]

Is it possible that you are truly just not knocking? I mean, you really would like to see zero knock retard, right?

Post a log file, maybe?

[joecar]

Can you hear any knock...?

[jfpilla]

Here's another way to set it up.

[Chuck CoW]

I made a table for knock with my GM knock pid and it only shows all 0.00. I used the maps supplied in the software for table 5913 and 5914 and get numbers that look like they are the amout of grams it would like to see in the table in the advanced table? In the retarded table they are all 0.00

I was expecting numbers like 1.0, 3.5 for knock and to subtract those values from the tables but when almost all in log are 33.0 29.0 27.2 it really looks like it is telling me this is the grams it is using not the amount of knock?

Thanks for any help

Louis


Hey Fellas..... What computer are we talking about.....?

Funny thing is that I didn't have this problem till I installed the latest release...I can't say it caused it, but...I can tell you that it never happened before and now it happens a bunch.....

Ineresting thing is that the problem started on an 05 E40 vette.... I spent an hour on the side of the road trying to log this guys car....with no luck...

Then I got a bright idea....I full flashed him back to an earlier o/s (car was at the delaer for a new pcm at some point and they gave him a new o/s with the new pcm)

Immediately after full flashing him back to the original o/s, the car ran and scanned perfectly.....no problems.

Later that day I had the same problem with another 05 E40 car. Same crap...same 22.7 and such #'s in the knock retard table.... Additionally, the car is surging while cruising and I felt the throttle moving while I was driving.... This never happened before..... nor have I ever seen the crazy KR values....

The last point is that I was tuning another 05 E40 (yes, now there are 3 cars involved) before leaving on this tuning trip....The KR values were perfect....upon returning home and attempting to finish the tune (after having upgraded to the latest build) I'm getting the crazy KR values in this car which never gave me a problem....

Joe, I think you are correct....It looks like commanded timing or something, but not KR....I tried different pid sets and many different KR type pids....all with the same poor results.....

Anyone have some good info for us here...???
Chuck

[gto_in_nc]

Hmmm... The plot thickens, perhaps?

[louis]

Here are my tune and log files. The reason I was so concerned about my knock tables are because I am breaking in a street 1250 hp c5 corvette. This doesnt include the 500hp nitrous shot and I wont touch that till I get a good tune first.

I am very happy if I truely dont have any knock at this point of breakin. I am just trying to be sure I have it right before I push the timing in about 300 more miles.

I do have one major major problem and have tried everything that I could think of. In my log file you will see it is my first closed loop tune with stft on. Been tuning in open loop and was hoping closed loop with fuel trims would solve my problem.

I fire the car up and she drives absolutely perfect for 30 min. Then all of a sudden with no air or water temp differences it starts adding fuel from 14.6 to 13.8 to 13 12 11 10 then plugs start fouling. I have changed the map sensor and wb02 and still the same thing. Its like working the opposite from the way it is suppose to. When rich at idle or coast and then give it gas it goes back to 14.6 for a few sec then levels back down to rich again.

I ruled out st and ltft by disabling them. I ruled out the map sensor and wb02. Is there something else I could monitor to try to get to the bottom of this? I thought it really was mechanical with 02 or map but not a chance.

This is a blown F1-C prcharger. You can see at the beginning of the log file how it corrects itself fairly well for first tune. Then go to the end of the log and you can watch the fuel pour in with no changes. Maybe I missed something or it seems after approx 30 min of pure pleasure the tune starts fighting against itself. Sorry simpliest way I could think to put it.

I have a copy of my closed loop also if anyone would like to see also but the results are the same.

Thanks

Louis

[5.7ute]

You do realise with the custom OS whenever you command 14.63 STFT will occur. Change B3647 to read something like 14.7 in the non enriched areas & see if it still does it. This has also corrupted your auto VE so you will need to redo it.
Also your throttle position never goes below 4%.

[joecar]

What 5.7 ute said.

VE table looks all wrong, boost VE table doesn't seem right either but I can't say what.

Also, get A0011/A0012 in range (enter 511) just in case.

I would do a cal-only flash again and see if there's any difference.

When logging, be sure to enter the correct VIN/OS and PCM type.

[louis]

Hello.

Can you explain how the auto ve is corrupted? I would like to learn how to look for this. If you are talking about the peaks in the map I never got a chance to smooth them out yet since I only did one tune in closed loop. Even in open loop with main ve map and boost smooth richness still occurs after approx 30 min.

Also this "Change B3647 to read something like 14.7 in the non enriched area" I already have 14.63 in the non enriched areas unless you see something I am doing wrong there in my tune file.

This quote "You do realise with the custom OS whenever you command 14.63 STFT will occur" is a yes I know if stft were enabled. Are you saying in custom os whether enabled stft or not custom os will still use stft?

Keep the answers coning guys I feel we are getting closer and thank you so much for all your help.

Louis

[joecar]

Peaks and holes right next to each other, i.e. missing adjacent cells right in the middle of your operating range...

May or may not be an indication of transient filter being off or not sufficient, or paste-multiplying the max or min and not the average;

To arrive at that VE table, did the BEN's start to move the table upwards...?

Smooth your VE table and do another iteration of Auto VE (disable STFT's).

[louis]

Hello.

No filters are active. It is in avg when I copy and multiply and yes the ben moved these cells upward. I usually smooth these out but wanted to give the first raw log.

ok I will disable stft again and start over.

Is there anything else I should monitor to see why this starts running rich after 30 min of a really good tune? What could possible be used if stft ltft are disabled to add fuel like this? How do I see which tables are being used when reviewing the log? Is there a history file or anything so I can follow it otherwise I am finding myself clicking on all tables in the tune file while I am tracking linked scan log?

Thanks

Louis

[joecar]

Need transient filter to be on.

See if you can start with a estimated VE table such that the BEN's bring it downward slightly.

Yes, there's a history tab, shows which tables you touched with timestamps.

[Chuck CoW]

I see all 0s, no filters are on and when I hit show min or max values still zeros. I have avg on and these are table fields

data=retard due to knock
column=airflow gms/cyl
row=rpm

The only pid I see that would relate to this with est in it is est_krb_dma estimated burst knock retard. Not sure if I should be using this or gm-kr retard due to knock?

Thanks for all the help gentlemen

Louis


Louis.... Have you fixed the knock problem..?? What type of vehicle is this?

My problem is back on a car that previously did not have a problem....seems to be after the latest build update.....

Chuck CoW

[louis]

Hello.

Not sure what you mean by transient filters. I know how to make data filters and I see there are switches for showing min and max values and hide cells with low values. Are these the ones you are talking about or should I make a data filter to remove 1.01 and .99 avg?

Thanks

Louis

[gto_in_nc]

He means a data filter to remove transient points. The AutoVE tutorial has you create one to ensure you are at operating temperature and to remove points following significant throttle changes. The idea here is to try to get close to steady-state so the points behind the BENs are fairly consistent.

[joecar]

Yes, that's correct, you need a filter that removes data points recorded during a "transient" condition;

the more strict the filter, the better the remaining data;
also helps alot to be smooth with foot-throttle motion;

see if you can "estimate/guess" an initial VE table that is closer to what the final VE table will be (i.e. want to avoid large BEN swings during Auto VE).

[joecar]

Chuck,

We're not ignoring you, we're just thinking about what could be causing what you saw.

I'll pm Paul about that.

Cheers,
Joe

[Chuck CoW]

Chuck,

We're not ignoring you, we're just thinking about what could be causing what you saw.

I'll pm Paul about that.

Cheers,
Joe


No sweat pal... I'm in contact with Paul on it...He knows already... I'm continuing to play with it....

I'm not sure how the pid structure is set up exactly, but....when switching between o/s's in the same car...the problem comes and goes.....

One o/s messes up......the earlier one does not.

I'm thinking it's that some pids got cross wired between o/s's.....

Chuck CoW

[5.7ute]

Hello.


Also this "Change B3647 to read something like 14.7 in the non enriched area" I already have 14.63 in the non enriched areas unless you see something I am doing wrong there in my tune file.

This quote "You do realise with the custom OS whenever you command 14.63 STFT will occur" is a yes I know if stft were enabled. Are you saying in custom os whether enabled stft or not custom os will still use stft?

Louis
Yes, whenever stoich (14.63) is commanded in a custom OS stft will occur. Changing to 14.7 will stop this from occuring.

[Chevy366]

Not to butt in , but in COS3 if you command 1.00eq when the STFT occur I have noticed that for the first 20 to 30 seconds of start up cold or hot the computer commands a lean AFR until engine idles down and the trims kick in , and [A0014] has reverse effect on fueling AFR .
Just a observation .

[louis]

Hello.

I redid the whole auto ve from scratch and made a map that was much nicer and smooth. 30 minutes later it goes right back to rich. I also put in a brand new wb02.

Is there anything else I can monitor? How can the wb02 see a lean condition in the exhaust so much it drops the stoich down to 10 and fouls plugs? My opinion it doesnt have an air leak anywhere it just decides to go rich.

Can anyone tell me how to monitor all the tables the scan tools uses during logging? Is there a history file of the tables it is pulling info from?

I am now also beginning to think that chuck may have a figured out something with the bersion I am using. I also updated recently and after further thinking I am beginning to realize this is about the time my tunes started to constantly run rich after 30 min.

Anyone have any more ideas?

Thanks

Louis

[5.7ute]

Post up your new tune & log.

[Chuck CoW]

Hello.

I redid the whole auto ve from scratch and made a map that was much nicer and smooth. 30 minutes later it goes right back to rich. I also put in a brand new wb02.

Is there anything else I can monitor? How can the wb02 see a lean condition in the exhaust so much it drops the stoich down to 10 and fouls plugs? My opinion it doesnt have an air leak anywhere it just decides to go rich.

Can anyone tell me how to monitor all the tables the scan tools uses during logging? Is there a history file of the tables it is pulling info from?

I am now also beginning to think that chuck may have a figured out something with the bersion I am using. I also updated recently and after further thinking I am beginning to realize this is about the time my tunes started to constantly run rich after 30 min.

Anyone have any more ideas?

Thanks

Louis

Hey guys.... Last night, Howard and I got the LS2 ben calc thing worked out..... Now, the ben calc is 1.0 when I'm at 14.7 ....

The pid is not there by default and must be created from scratch.....

What a headache.....

Now that my VE table is perfect spot on.....We need to address the second half of the problem.

With certain 05 E40 Vettes, I CAN NOT LOG KR... I have loaded EVERY SINGLE PID FILE I HAVE AND ATTEMPTED TO LOG EVERY PID HAVING TO DO WITH SPARK AND I GET NO KR or I GET KR of like 24-27deg...

SOMETHING is wrong. I've tuned many 05's in the past with NO PROBLEMS....Since the latest update, I CAN NOT FIND A PID FILE OR PID/MAP that correctly displays KR...

I'm dying... Some O/S's work...others simply don't. Tuning with no KR is kinda touchy.

Chuck CoW

[louis]

Hello Chuck. Just got off the phone with you. Please send me an older version to this email if you can.

louis@emailicon.net

[louis]

I have changed everything mechanical including the wb02 and map sensor. I have fixed everything in the program and still goes rich after 30 minutes of driving.

I have come to my wits end. I now honestly think it is now in the software somehow.

Anyone with some other ideas?

[5.7ute]

You are still commanding 14.63 in table B3647. You cannot do Auto VE until you change this to 14.7.
You also have a P0354 trouble code coming up for a coil controller, you might need to have a good look at your wiring.

[Tordne]

In EFILive Custom OS 3 & 5 when you command the same AFR as is defined in the the B3601 table (stoich) the fuel mode changes to a custom EFILive mode called Semi Open Loop. This is effectively commanding an EQ Ratio (PCM units) of 1.00. In this condition/scenario fuel trimming occurs.

Try commanding something other than 14.63:1 or EQ 1.00. Perhaps 14.5:1 or 14.7:1 etc.

You are also commanding some seriously rich conditions through the multiplier table A0008. Here are some examples from your tune:
-20*C commanding 10.37:1
0*C commanding 11.52:1
20*C commanding 12.19:1
60*C commanding 13.54:1

[louis]

I apologze when you had mentioned 14.7 previously. I assumed you were just rounding out 14.63 and didnt understand the reason. Now it is all clear. I never picked up on that tidbit of info till now Thank you.

Never knew about semi open loop but really good to know these specifics. Yes I also seen and heard the number 4 coil go out and already changed it. Thanks for pointing that out though just in case I did miss it.

I never did get to address the A0008 table other then operating temp. Not sure where I got these values from and because I am in florida with car sitting in the sun it is hardly ever colder at start then approx 100 degrees but I do see what you mean by richness there now.
Can you tell me what the equation is for the conversion from the multiplier to figure the stoich?

I would like to thank everyone here who has helped me. I am confident now that this is exactly my problems and cant wait to get up early in the morning and fire it up with all these updates.

Will let all know in the morning how goes it.

Thanks

Louis

[Tordne]

Can you tell me what the equation is for the conversion from the multiplier to figure the stoich?

I basically just use Commanded AFR / Multiplier as the calculation. This works for the Multiplier and tables in EQ Ratio units.

[louis]

All the changes suggested helped tremendously. It is still going rich but only after an hr now and if I shut the car off for thirty min it runs fine for another hr.

Please take a look at my files and let me know if you see anything else I may have missed.

Couple questions on knock map which is still all 0s. What would be the best way to test this for knock? I had increased the tables 12% previously and still shows all 0s. Im a little leary going any further.

Second question when you add and multiple the changes do you smooth out the whole map or just the high points?

I also noticed there was no temp changes in air intake or in water temp when it started to run rich again down to the 11s and 10s .

I went into the tune and noticed the tables B3601 and B3647 were again the same afr. I swear I did change these but will redo again and make another run. Do the afr values once entered into these 2 tables change at all?

Thanks

Louis