Idle after 30 minutes goes rich

[louis]

Can someone take a look at my tune. I start out with a nice 14.6 idle then after 20-30 min it goes rich to about 12.5. Water and air temps have not changed also

I am in open loop and it doesnt look like any stft or ltft are active at all. I am thinking I may have missed a setting somewhere but cant locate it.

One other question I have is when adding from logging file to main ve should I be smoothing the whole table every time I see a peak or just the peak surrounding area?

Thanks

Louis

[Chalky]

Regarding VE table, I assume you are doing AutoVE. Once you start getting the table close, just work on spikes. If you have a good cell count in surrounding cells and a spike in the middle, you can assume the spike needs to be smoothed in. If I can get cell counts of a minimum of 25 and preferably 50, then those values become very reliable and I try not to change those cells that much.

My guess is someone will jump in and review your tun. if not, I will take a look tomorrow when I get to my other computer.

[mr.prick]

change your PE AFR table {B3618}.
14.63 is a no no.
also leave your commanded AFR stock,{B3647} in your case.
probably why you have so many dips in your spark table.(i guess you subtracted knock)
also your fan come on too soon,
in OL, STFT and LTFT are off.

[louis]

Sorry if I didnt mention it but in the tutorial I followed this.

6. Open calibration {B3618} “PE Modifier Based on RPM” Select all cells by clicking in the extreme top-left, grey cell. If the calibration is displayed as EQ Ratio then enter 1.0 into the Adjust text box and click the [#] button to set all values to 1.0 EQ Ratio. If the calibration is displayed as AFR then enter 14.63 into the Adjust text box and click the [#] button to set all values to 14.63 AFR.

So B3618 is 14.63 yes in open loop tuning with autove. Am I missing something here because I thought in open loop this had to be 14.63?

Thanks for the reply

Louis

[Chalky]

You are using same tutorial as everyone. By setting PE to 14.63, you are using the CFOL table to control AFR throughout the range. should be fine as long as your CFOL table is setup per the tutorial.

In the 80-100 C temp range, your afr's should trend from 14.63 to 12.99 or so, maybe 12.95.

[SSbaby]

What's PE got to do with idle?

[Chalky]

What's PE got to do with idle?

Refer to post #3, #4 and #5

[Chalky]

Can you pist a log file showing the car going rich? Your tun files looks fine for AutoVE from what I see.

Are you stock, cam, headers, any mods?

[mr.prick]

What's PE got to do with idle?
nothing.
but when you are at 4000 RPM and are in the low end of the
kPa range it can be harmful

[SSbaby]

nothing.
but when you are at 4000 RPM and are in the low end of the
kPa range it can be harmful
How so? His engine is operating on the Open Loop table?

[louis]

Hello all.

Yes I am heavily modified and blown with a 1250 hp F1-C procharger, Dart ls1 cnc race heads, -32cc mahle blower pistons and rods, best callies crank, all hydraulic rollers, 1.8 rockers, lsx intake with 90 mm throttle body, 75 lb injectors, kooks headers and exhaust, msd enhancer, twin intercoolers, dual fuel pumps with voltage controller, vdram 1000 hp clutch....will fill you in on the rest when I get this part running good.

What I have been working on lately is adjusting my iac steps downward to match my iacdes_B and my dynair.

I have also changed my B4403 and B4349 to .0157 and trying lower numbers tonite to try to overcome this issue.

I am starting to think it is something to do with idle learn. It is set at 80c which takes me normal 20-30 min to see.

In this log you can see where I lost the idle and stalled when it went rich also.

Thanks in advance.

Louis

[Chalky]

Louis:

I am not familiar with setting up FI cars. Just wondering why you went down on B4349 to .0138 with a 90 MM TB. The consensus seems to be that a setting of approx .0320 to .0330 seems to work well with the larger TB.

[louis]

Hello.

Im glad you caught that because all I read was pointing me to .0157. Stock it was .0255 and would always start up at 2000 rpm. Then I read how to lower the B4403 table to get the iacdes_B and dynair the same. I was only able to get close by lowering the B4349 also after moving B4403 down 6 steps. I tried every step from 1 thru 6 and could not get close enough without lowering .0157 even lower.

I have stayed a way from anything over .0157 because the startup was extreme high revs 2000 rpm and then would settle down. One thing I did not know then was the effect of moving the B4403 down and am willing to go to .0320-.0330 and see where my iacdes_B and dynair are at. I do know lowering the B4349 was the only way I could align numbers for iacdes_B and dynair.

Could I get your opinion on the idle learn area? Somewhere it looks as if 80C is the trigger for idle learn and it seems that is when I am going rich. The formulas for that area also how they are applied to the B3647 table.

Another question I had was I also did the math changing from a 75mm throttle body to a 90mm and the difference was 44%. I came up with .0157 and used that as a staring point which to my surprise took care of all idle issues till it started idle learning it seems.

I would run rich starting at 14.5 for first 30 min then it would take 5 mins to go to 13, 12, 11 and 10 sometimes and of course car would shut down with an error code P1221 throttle position sensor. Most of the time I could just wait till the water temp went below the idle learn threshold and starts right back up at 14.5.

At .0157 I also tried to adjust the whole B4403 table 44% without moving the steps downward and it ran pretty good but same rich problem would arise. I am not thinking it is the idle learn as much as I am thinking it is the steps that are off that would compound the multipliers.

Running out now to try your advice now and will repost another log right away.

Thanks

Louis

[redhardsupra]

here's a spreadsheet that calculates the TB scalar:
http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/TBresizing.xls

[louis]

Hello.

I use .0157 and did try the others including .0320 and .0330 but the dynair and the iacdes_B would just get further apart.

Using .0157 brought these 2 closer together but not close enough. I moved the B4403 down all the way to 7 steps and didnt have much affect on the difference. Just seemed to swap the numbers around but same differences approx.

I still find my only way to get dynair and iacdes_B as close as I can is dropping B4349 even further. I know then somewhere the multipliers will be wrong but everyone keeps saying get these as close as you can first. Is there another setting I could try instead? Even when close after 30 minutes of driving I get the throttle position sensor P1221. This could be something altogether different but not sure because the car continues to get rich till it dies.

Thanks

Louis

[Chalky]

Louis:

I am no authority and can get around a bit in EFILive.

Your idle learn is right on. I did not that your IAT climbed from ~90 to 117. This issue has been discussed before.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=6099&highlight=IAT. I believe SSpdDmon actually relocated his IAT to address the false readings generated @ idle.

I see Marcin , Redhardsupra, posted. Marcin along with many others on this forum have an in depth knowledge and can surely offer you more assistance than I.

I, for one, would use Marcin's spreadsheet and adjust B4349 back to an accepted factor and go from there.

SspdDmon also has a sticky, I believe on idle tuning and hs is also running FI.

Your VE table also is still looking bad @ lower RPM and KPA cells. Smooth is best.

Just another thought but after setting B4349 back to 330 and before altering VE table, I would let car cool and use RAFIG to dial in des airflow. Once you have that done, work on improving your VE table in the idle area.

[Bruce Melton]

Louis,
You may end up chasing your tail untill you get the B4349 in line. If the PCM does not know how big the TB is you can wonk everything around to compensate but it will never be right. What is you disp? Is B0104 right?

[louis]

Hello and thanks for the reply.

I am running a steel iron ls1 408 and that is how I derived at B0104 836cc. I thought the same but went over the numbers 3 times to be exact it comes out to 835.754394.

I also went back to my original change to B4349 .0157. I did the math several times to make sure I came up with the same results and I am still seeing other people on the forums very recent also using different numbers to match their Dynair and iacdes_B and that was the only way I could also.

Now at .0157 again I see iacdes at 1.64 lbs/min vs dynair at 1.93 lbs/min. I would have to assume this is my real reason tune eventually goes rich?

Some really good info regarding tunes going sour after a certain temperature but mostly what I have read goes lean not rich. Still reading more on the subject now but if my B4349 table is correct and looking at my idle learn I dont see how it can go rich.

I ran this exact same setup last year with an aluminum ls1 and never had this issue that I could not gain control of. It has to also be relative to the water temp change because driving after 20-30 min is what it takes to get to 80-92C here in florida. If I take it on the highway though I wont see those temps and can go for hrs without going rich.

I am also looking at my logs where 81C is where it all starts. I see my B4501 is set at 80C and have been pondering an increase to this table and try to rule out idle learning causing this.

Any comments or observations welcome

Thanks

Louis

[mr.prick]

How so? His engine is operating on the Open Loop table?
2343

this is why you don`t leave PE at 14.63
the highlighted areas are not what you want to be,
in those areas you are either decelerating or
are driving hard in the powerband. (road racing)
if you are decelerating you may run even leaner.
this table is from the tune in the first post.

[SSpdDmon]

Louis:

I am no authority and can get around a bit in EFILive.

Your idle learn is right on. I did not that your IAT climbed from ~90 to 117. This issue has been discussed before.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=6099&highlight=IAT. I believe SSpdDmon actually relocated his IAT to address the false readings generated @ idle.

I see Marcin , Redhardsupra, posted. Marcin along with many others on this forum have an in depth knowledge and can surely offer you more assistance than I.

I, for one, would use Marcin's spreadsheet and adjust B4349 back to an accepted factor and go from there.

SspdDmon also has a sticky, I believe on idle tuning and hs is also running FI.

Your VE table also is still looking bad @ lower RPM and KPA cells. Smooth is best.

Just another thought but after setting B4349 back to 330 and before altering VE table, I would let car cool and use RAFIG to dial in des airflow. Once you have that done, work on improving your VE table in the idle area.
Well, my last car was NA when I did all the futzing with the IAT and charge temp bias. I still haven't figured out the new issues awaiting with my new forced induction setup. :lol:

[louis]

Hello gentlemen.

I dont know what everyone is doing to make the B4349 table work when they are using .0320, .0330 and .0355 but every one of those makes my car start at 4-5000 rpms. I put all tunes back to stock and changed just that table and before I did I also reset the tp.

Once again I am forced to go back to .0157 and work my way down from there and have found that the iacdes_B and dynair can only be equal at .0135. This is insane and has no logic to the equations I have also tried and tested. I have even adusted the B4307 and B4308 for every conceivable value which didnt help at all.

One question I am curious about is when adjusting B4349 should I also have multiplied table B4402 iac affected area also by 44%? If not then how could I get dynair and iacdes_B in line other than doing what I did?

Sending my tune and logs also. I have not applied the map changes yet for 4307 and 4308 but will be doing shortly.

Thanks

Louis

[Chalky]

Compare my setup to yours.

[louis]

Hello and than you for the reply.

I can see the diff and have tried the same but startup screams 4-5000 rpms.

Is there anything you can see in my tune that would cause this?

Am I suppose to increase the steps in the iac affected area also?

I have read almost eerything on this subject I could find and every ones fix is so much differemt from others and I have tried just about all of them. I am at a loss of what to do next.

Thanks

Louis

[Chalky]

did you mention something about a TPS code?

[louis]

Hello.

Im pretty sure in some of the previous logs I posted had TPS error code in it.

First 30 minutes were 14.5 and running real strong then the water temp hits 80C and I would see AFR go slowly to 10.0 (approx 5 minutes time) then reduced power mode and I would shut off immediately. I would not get a TPS error every time either.

Then the confusion sets in till I notice if I just restart it when the water gets below 80C it would fire up and drive away ever time Afr at 14.5.

If I was on the highway I could go for hrs as long as I didnt get to 80C. Therefore thinking when idle learn kicked in at 80C which it was set at already was causing the issue but you also verified that table looked good.

I did finally catch the B0107 and B0108 tables and will add that to the tune right away. My next question would be if I can actually control the throttle with B0108 you have 1.20 and I see mine at 4.5-5.5% Should I go with your setting or the one I see? I am sure my tables will have a dramatic change if I could get .0330 working in B4349.

Running out to try these setting and will let you know how it goes. It is very odd that the stock tune files had supplied B0107 and B0108 with 0's. Because of this I assumed B4601 abd B4602 were the controlling factor in the maximum idle in gear and maximun idle in p/n.


Great catch though I really think this and .0330 will help with everything.

Thanks

Louis

[louis]

Hello.

Here is the results changing B4349 table from .0136 to .0310.

I went up slowly while the car was still warm. (Worried about hign screaming starts) At .0255 I could see iacdes_B .85 lbs/min start getting way out of sync with dynair 1.80.

Moving up to .0300 and after readjusting B4307, B4308 and B0101 from logged maps I started to get a flare and high idle up to 2000 rpms.

I brought it up to B4349 .0310 and the idle started rising past 2500 rpms. Seems the max idle table does not have ant different effect on my high idle starts. I could not get the idle down unless I held my foot on the brake which must lower the vacuum or something.

Checking iacdes_B was at .66 vs dynair was at 1.70 lbs/min. I tried every adjustment I could think of to bring these numbers closer together but nothing helped.

Is there something else I am missing here or am I thinking the wrong thing by trying to make the iacdes_B and dynair the same?

Even at .0310 I would still get reduced power mode and sometimes a P1221 code but not always and only at the water temp of above 80C.

Could a bad tac cause this and only at this temp act up? I cannot fathom that if sometimes it will run past 80C also. I am going to check the voltage on the sensor and the actuator and keep you posted.

Thanks for all your help so far.

Louis

[Bruce Melton]

Send me an email and I will send you a "starter" tune. You can change the IFR and it will give you a proper starting point.
meltn@new.rr.com

[Chalky]

Hello.

Here is the results changing B4349 table from .0136 to .0310.

I went up slowly while the car was still warm. (Worried about hign screaming starts) At .0255 I could see iacdes_B .85 lbs/min start getting way out of sync with dynair 1.80.

Moving up to .0300 and after readjusting B4307, B4308 and B0101 from logged maps I started to get a flare and high idle up to 2000 rpms.

I brought it up to B4349 .0310 and the idle started rising past 2500 rpms. Seems the max idle table does not have ant different effect on my high idle starts. I could not get the idle down unless I held my foot on the brake which must lower the vacuum or something.

Checking iacdes_B was at .66 vs dynair was at 1.70 lbs/min. I tried every adjustment I could think of to bring these numbers closer together but nothing helped.

Is there something else I am missing here or am I thinking the wrong thing by trying to make the iacdes_B and dynair the same?

Even at .0310 I would still get reduced power mode and sometimes a P1221 code but not always and only at the water temp of above 80C.

Could a bad tac cause this and only at this temp act up? I cannot fathom that if sometimes it will run past 80C also. I am going to check the voltage on the sensor and the actuator and keep you posted.

Thanks for all your help so far.

Louis

Based on this, it sounds like a bad tac. The reduced power http://www.gearchatter.com/viewpost12574.php

You said the tune worked before but now doesn't. Obviously, something changed.