tuning vehicle not using any wideband

[dsmlights]

hey guys i read thed autove table but i do not have a wideband right now for that. I do have access to a dyno. Now my question is how will I tune the car like this.


Will I just adjust the Backup VE table or the Main VE table in my 99 program.

Also how do I tune with the NB02 sensor.

I have found lots of AUTOVE tuning but no tuning with stock 02 sensor.

I wanna get a few extra WHP :)

[JezzaB]

hey guys i read thed autove table but i do not have a wideband right now for that. I do have access to a dyno. Now my question is how will I tune the car like this.


Will I just adjust the Backup VE table or the Main VE table in my 99 program.

Also how do I tune with the NB02 sensor.

I have found lots of AUTOVE tuning but no tuning with stock 02 sensor.

I wanna get a few extra WHP :)

You can dial in parts of the VE table with the narrow bands but if you have access to a dyno and they have a 5v output from the tailpipe AFR meter you was set ;)

Jez

[dsmlights]

ummm any tutorials on tuing car not using autoVE?

[SSpdDmon]

The fact is, you need a WB to accurately dial in WOT AFR. There's no getting around it. For closed loop fueling, you can get an idea of where the fueling is at based on the fuel trims and adjust accordingly - whether it be through the VE, MAF, or injector tables. If it's a stock LS1, they usually are within 6~8% of having commanded=actual fueling depending on what bolt-ons/mods have been made to the motor.

In the end, you should ask yourself what's more important...investing $300 into a WB setup or having to potentially invest $3000+ into a new engine?

[Lextech]

Besides the above info---It is just plain fun to tune. A W/B opens up a whole new world of tuning. You can play golf for 2 or 3 Saturdays or spend the same or less money and get a Wideband O2.

[TAQuickness]

There is some info floating around ls1tech about tuning with NB's. That said, I would strongly encourage you to invest into a WB.

I've been in a similar boat before - just spent 10k on a power train, 2k on a PC and tuning software, and then I find out I need another chunk of change for a WB. So being hard headed, I decided to tune with NB's. After about 8 weeks of chasing my tail, I got an LC1 WB, and 3 days later, I had the majority of my tune nailed. Wasn't until I picked up an RR that I got my low speed drivabitily sorted.

The cool part about tuning software/tools is that they have a resale value and are almost always in high demand.

[dsmlights]

i know . but the problem is that I do not have a wideband only on the dyno. I do not want to keep the efi V1 on my car all the time. The unit does not belong to me. can't I just use the dyno Wideband..

I am just trying to find out if it is Ok to tune the car on a dyno not using auto VE.

And if so do I just change the main Ve or backup VE.

[TAQuickness]

You certainly don't have to keep V1 or a WB in/on the car all the time. If the dyno does have a WB, you can connect it to V1 while you're there and call it a day afterwords.

[Doc]

Not to be a wet blanket or jack ass but, the likeliehood of you getting the dyno's WB02 output to work with the V1 (in a timely manner) is pretty much slim to none.

Once again, don't take offense at my remark but, there is no easy way around setting up a WB02 for the process of AutoVE. Actually tuning your Air Fuel via the backup/main VE and or MAF tables-depending on your vehicle year and desired fueling method is what AutoVE is all about.

I would just hate to see you book dyno time only to find out that getting their WB02 and the V1 to actually work togther and fully comphrend the information provided by the scan and tune tools is going to eat up alot of time.

It is not impossible, just a bit more involved.

You got to learn to walk before you run.

And, NB tuning is mental masturbation.

[mistermike]

It's not just ls1tech where the misinformation flies freely. Check out http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193871 It seems that every so often someone insists that a NB can give you an accurate correlation with AFR away from stoich. Then someone else chimes in and says xyz millivolts is a safe NB tune and he can prove it, yada yada. Then the guys with WB's and scatter plots come in and usually send the original poster back under his rock, but the guy on the GTO board seems terminally clueless. Even the thinly veiled insults went over his head.

Having said that, I have used fuel trims with reasonable success in the areas under closed loop control before I got my WB. Just recently, my WB setup had a problem, and I was able to rough things in with STFT's. But I wouldn't dream of doing it at WOT with a power adder.

[dsmlights]

so then you are pretty much telling me that if I do not have a wideband to do auto Ve then this won't work..

if so that is BS.

you might might not be understanding what I am tryign to say.

I just wanna take my car to the dyno put the sniffer on the tail pipe and change parameters.

IE fuel and timing.

Now the question is wich one do I use Backup or Main. and is there any other for fuel.


I mean Auto Ve is like auto tune right. When I tune my EMs on my 4 banger i just tune it with dyno wideband and that is it.

do you guys understand now ?

thanks,

Ed

[joecar]

Main with MAF, Backup without.

[joecar]

AutoVE won't work too well without a wideband because AutoVE aims to make actual AFR converge to commanded AFR...

But AutoVE is not what you're doing.

[mr.prick]

hey guys i read thed autove table but i do not have a wideband right now for that. I do have access to a dyno. Now my question is how will I tune the car like this.


Will I just adjust the Backup VE table or the Main VE table in my 99 program.

Also how do I tune with the NB02 sensor.

:)

don`t waste your time or fuel if you don`t have a WBO2

[dsmlights]

correct :) finally , ok so now i need to change Main VE. now once I do this on the dyno will my a/f stay good or will there be some issues when temperature changes and stuff ? sorry I am asking so much but I just really care about WOt not PT

[joecar]

If you only care about WOT, then when you get on the dyno, simply tune until actual AFR is suitable for WOT torque/power.

[dsmlights]

and Ill be using the main VE table correct ?

I did and checked and i show on the log 100 in map but when go into the main VE it shows map @30

wa is the deal?

[joecar]

Do you have a MAF...?

If scantool shows MAP 100kPa and tunetool shows MAP 30kPa,
then you need to do this (try step 1 first; if it still fails, do step 2):

1. in scantool, Data F9 tab, rightclick on MAP, select Metric;

2. in tunetool, Configure Display Units (~), for any table that uses MAP set data/row/col (as applicable) to Metric (rightclick, select data/col/row, select Metric).

[Doc]

Once again, don't take this the wrong way...

If you only are going to have the V1 for a short period of time and want to make the most out of one short dyno session where you will actually have access to a WB02 in the tail pipe (I hope you don't have your kitties still) then forget about AutoVE, VE tables, MAF tables and the whole mess. Just adjust the PE table and be done with it.

I can understand not having enough time or resources to go really deep into this.

[mr.prick]

Once again, don't take this the wrong way...

If you only are going to have the V1 for a short period of time and want to make the most out of one short dyno session where you will actually have access to a WB02 in the tail pipe (I hope you don't have your kitties still) then forget about AutoVE, VE tables, MAF tables and the whole mess. Just adjust the PE table and be done with it.

I can understand not having enough time or resources to go really deep into this.
or familiarize yourself with the tool/software on the streets,
then do your dyno tune.

[SSpdDmon]

so then you are pretty much telling me that if I do not have a wideband to do auto Ve then this won't work..

if so that is BS.

you might might not be understanding what I am tryign to say.

I just wanna take my car to the dyno put the sniffer on the tail pipe and change parameters.

IE fuel and timing.

Now the question is wich one do I use Backup or Main. and is there any other for fuel.


I mean Auto Ve is like auto tune right. When I tune my EMs on my 4 banger i just tune it with dyno wideband and that is it.

do you guys understand now ?

thanks,

Ed
I get what you're trying to say. What we're trying to say is the AutoVE is an in-depth procedure that most tuners don't go through the trouble of doing. If you're just interested in dialing in your AFR and timing on the dyno, that is entirely possible. Tweak the timing and play with PE until you get the desired results. However, take note of your fuel trims prior to hopping on the dyno because they will most likely be reset after you flash in a tune. This is important because if they are positive (say 6%) and you dial in the AFR after flashing it a few times when they're at 0%, they're going to go right back to 6% after some driving and they'll carry over to WOT making you 6% too rich.

The 'old school' way of doing things is to notice where the fuel trims are at, make some adjustments to the Inj. Flow Rate table to get them close to zero, and dial in WOT with the PE table. That can be done before and on the dyno using the ltfts and a WB. That's the quick way to get it done....no touching VE unless it's cam'd and you need to pull fuel so it'll idle.

[dsmlights]

understood thanks for the info guys i am finally getting this. now I should adjust PE modified based on rpm correct?...

Well isen't PE adjusted by NB02 feedback? can someone explain to me how PE actually works.

So then adjusting the VE Main table is a nono for WOT tuning.


Man guys I am sorry I am asking so much, but i am just geting confused with all the diff tuning stuff there is :).

anymore info you guys have will be great.

thanks,

Ed

[dsmlights]

there are so many PE table wich one should I use PE based on rpm ?

thanks,

Ed

[SSpdDmon]

PE vs. RPM is used.

PE is a part of open loop. In open loop (i.e. when the NBO2 sensors are ignored), the PCM reviews several tables like PE, Commanded Fuel in Open Loop, Catalytic Converter Protection, etc. Under the current conditions reported by the different sensors (ECT, MAP, etc.), it looks up all commanded AFRs and correction factors that apply. It then takes the richest value of the bunch and bases it's perceived fueling requirements based of that value.

The only time the O2 sensors have anything to do with WOT or open loop is when during closed loop, the PCM learned that fueling was off and it introduced positive long term fuel trims. Those fuel trims will then carry over to WOT. Negative fuel trims do not carry over. When tuning, you should always be targeting LTFT=0% when in closed loop.

See post #5. (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=6767)

[dsmlights]

so since my car is pretty much stock my ltft should ne around 0 right ?? then I should just change my PE to about 12.6 or so and I should be good right. Also what will happen if I change

VE Main table?? can I do that or is that not a good thing to do.

[ScarabEpic22]

Stock LTFTs are probably not 0, GM tunes these to be on the safe side with a conservative calibration that will work for every engine they make. Tuners like us go in and tweak the cal so we can get the most performance out of our specific engine, and therefore LTFTs will probably need to be adjusted a little.

[dsmlights]

but as for right now since i am pretty much stock and I am trying to lean out to make a few more whp. then I could just adjust my pe to 12.5 and be done with it for now. right.

[Doc]

So then adjusting the VE Main table is a nono for WOT tuning.

Actually, it's a emphatic yes! Not to be confusing but, all I was trying to say was unless you have more mods and plan on investing the time-researching here and all over the net and, acquire a V1/V2 and a WB02 you are going to get the most overall satisfaction with your dyno session by adjusting PE vs. RPM and timing.



Man guys I am sorry I am asking so much, but i am just geting confused with all the diff tuning stuff there is :).

There is no limit to the information you can dig up on this forum from it's members and the massive amount of published information contained herein.

The only thing "we" collectively ask is for you to immerse yourself in it and ask pointed questions- as you now are begining to do. Most members will not spoon feed questions like "So I want to go fast and get hot chicks..."


anymore info you guys have will be great.

Ok, chew on this....

http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/LS1/Holden_LS1.pdf

[TAQuickness]

If you are looking to tune WOT only, and the goal is simply to lean out a tad for more RWHP, then the PE table is what you're after.

If you intend to make adjustments to any of the air flow tables:
OLSD = backup VE table - then transfer to MainVE for MAF operation
OLMAF = MAF table